Entertainment For Lively Minds
You Had Me At Hello
Posted by barneytabasco on 5 February 2009 - 5:34pm.
Mr Hepworth's reference elsewhere to the 40th anniversary of Astral Weeks got me thinking: any other artists out there who arguably had their finest ever hour with their first ever album? Despite some brilliant work in the ensuing four decades, I'd argue that Van never again quite scaled the heights he reached on his very first solo outing. Other contenders off the t of me h: Roxy Music, Sex Pistols, Bruce Springsteen. Thoughts from le massif?
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Ummm...
I don't think Astral Weeks was his debut album. he had one before that that had Brown Eyed Girl on it didn't he?
Yes
But it was put together and released without Van's permission, and he's always disowned it.
Pedant's Corner
And what we might think of as the Pistols only made one album, discounting the slew of Vicious-era compilations and soundtracks. And here's a random two - Massive Attack and Wire and two obvious ones - Stone Roses and the Killers.
Sex Pistols
"Never Mind The Bollocks" was their only album.
edit: Trev beat me to it while I was writing away!
I think Roxy's "For Your Pleasure" was better than their first one and the rest aren't bad either.
Probably all of the recent indie darlings turned pop stars should have ended it all after their first album Franz Ferdinand, The Strokes, CSS, Kaiser Chiefs etc etc.
Oasis definitely should have packed it in after "Definitely Maybe".
I'm trying to check my collection to give some examples but most of my favourites produced later albums that beat their debuts hands down like Go-Betweens, Cardigans, Charlatans, The Jam...maybe that's another thread!
ABC
Lexicon of love. Perfect pop never bettered by the band.
Here's a few
The Ramones
The Rolling Stones
The Flying Burrito Brothers
The J. Geils Band
Black Sabbath
King Crimson
Montrose
Jeff Buckley
Television
Jeff Buckley?
Only one album proper, so not really eligible. (The second, being called '*Sketches* for my Sweetheart The Drunk')
But but but but but
there is no such thing as King Crimson's debut album in the sense of this thread.
There is the first album put out by a group of musicians led by Robert Fripp using that moniker, but that's not the same thing.
It is by far the best album from the run up to Islands, but beyond there it's a new page in the history of Fripptabulous development.
Larks Tongues is by another band (almost) entirely, as is Red.
What!
Have to take issue with just a couple of your choices, the Stones debut, replete with R&B covers can't compete with the majesty that is the Beggars/Bleed/Sticky/Exile quartet. I would also suggest that Rocket to Russia is at least the equal of the Ramones debut. Jeff Buckley doesn't count having only released one album proper (live albums and posthumous cobbled togethers are out)Television only two albums, not much competition there. Spot on about the rest though.
The best Ramones album is, without doubt,
It's Alive. All the songs from the first two albums played in half the time and with twice the energy.
The Beatles
My daughter, who’s 15, is going through a major Beatles obsession at the moment. She reckons the best three Beatles albums are the first three: Please Please Me, With The Beatles and Hard Day’s Night. She doesn’t really like anything post-Revolver (“boring hippy stuff”) and is particularly dismissive of Sgt Pepper. I think she has a point. The generally received wisdom about the Fabs is that they got better as they went along. They got more mature, sophisticated etc. But is I Am The Walrus really “better” than This Boy?
There's a flaw in her argument
The first one isn't all that good. Other that that i'd agree with her.
But there's also a flaw in the received wisdom. We were talking about this on the podcast the other day. Somebody had done a qualitative countdown of the Beatles stuff from worst to best and wouldn't you know that the top ten was all stuff like Strawberry Fields Forever and I Am The Walrus, rather than I Want To Hold Your Hand and There's A Place.
Let alone No Reply, which is the correct answer.
You’d get an earful
if you came round here suggesting that an album with three all-time-great powerpop classics (I Saw Her Standing There, Please Please Me and There’s A Place), two of the best John Lennon-sings-soul covers (Anna, Baby It’s You), plus Twist & Shout “isn’t all that good”. She’s a chip off the old block.
Tubular bells?
Seriously, hasn't everything since been a re-write or a cover version?
As far as Van is concerned, yes, I concede that Astral Weeks is his worthiest and all that, but it's hardly the one I ever go looking out to play for pleasure......
Aah but you should
That and "Moondance" are streets better than anything he did afterwards.
Two Words
Veedon & Fleece
Two more
Manure. Horse.
A Further Two
Cloth & Eared
Two more
Anal. Cleft.
that's
just rude
What's this...
did Van Morisson play harmonica on a Mike Oldfield album?
Underrated
but still not as good as Astral weeks.
I don't get
Astral Weeks. I've bought it about five times when I see it cheap, and every time I think 'I'll understand it this time!'. I never do, and end up giving it away again.
Fond of Moondance, though.
I didn't get
what all the fuss was about for years.
And then it just started to sound better every time I played it.
My theory is that my tastes broadened in the intervening years and I 'caught up' with it.
Perhaps that
will happen. It happened that way for me with Pet Sounds. And Elvis.
Ooh,
Pet Sounds. In the words of Diana Ross (or to be more specific, Deke Richards [thankyou Wikipedia]), I'm still waiting.
To paraphrase what 'someone' said...
...about Dylan. Astral Weeks will always be there when you're finally ready for it
Rose Tattoo - Rock n' Roll Outlaw
I didn't say it was great, just better than all their other albums.
What he said...
If Mr Anderson had sung "The Butcher and Fast Eddie" at Scott and Charlene's wedding, Kylie's musical career could have gone in a whole other direction...
Incidentally KM anagrams as "I like guy on me". So that's that cleared up.
Better schmetter.
Again, probably, yes, but I sometimes like something without so much actual effort involved. (Actually, I should probably just listen to it again, as you say, rather than mentally putting it off until I hear the live version recording, which, contradictively, does appeal.)
I alarmingly recently discovered that Van has crept to the top of my list of most featured on the i-pod, as I did a late night dash thru the LPs with which I was unfamiliar, on i-tunes, knocking off about 4 per album of about 6 different assorted. Does anyone else do this regrettable drink-fuelled foray into the back catalogue of artists already quite well represented by CD/LP purchase, usually triggered by some discussion as to the worth of a particular artist, usually on this site, I should add? Apart from VanI have recently done this for R.E.M and will be doing it soon, no doubt, for John Martyn. Sort of "my" version of greatest hits, avoiding the duplication of commercial greatest hits compilations, which I usually already have enough of the songs from to make me feel not worth the cost (even tho' probably working out cheaper to do so.....)
Spotify might help
As someone who has sometimes wished his PC had a breathalyser to limit the impulse to gather even more music, Spotify might help us here - set up a playlist of all the things rather than buy them from iTunes!
Are You Experienced?
Apart from Voodoo Chile, there's not much Jimi did after which is essential listening, in my opinion.
Also, Velvet Underground & Nico?
Correct
In both cases.
Four Words
Axis & Bold & As & Love
Beg to differ
Not remotely as good as the first one. Is that where he started the foolishness about mermaids?
still prefer
Electric Ladyland
"Crosstown Traffic" "Voodoo Chile" (both versions),Watchtower"
"Gypsy Eyes" "Burning Of The Midnight Lamp""Still Raining"
I rest my case M'Lud
Ahh what the heck, all the three albums are great.
By the way how often do we the Massive actually listen to these records? Be honest now.
Axis
It's Axis for me but the first one is also undeniably great
That's pretty strong...
...The first is very good, but so is Electric Ladyland (I for one prefer it) - Bold is Love is also excellent.
REM
Murmur
'Crosby, Stills & Nash'...
by... oh you know who it's by.
Springsteen???
Shurely not!!
Born to Run is still the best and this was his third release, although "Darkness" is a close second if it wasn't for that sludgy dense sound.
Heartily concur...
Greetings is a messy, rambling record. It contains Mary, Queen of Arkansas - by some distance Springsteen's worst recorded moment (even allowing Human Touch and Lucky Town).
Not sure if Born to Run outstrips The Wild, The Innocent though!
Can it be just a coincidence. . .
that his two worst recorded moments both have "Queen" in the title? (See new album.)
I have to disagree
Greetings contains Growin' Up which beats Mary by some distance as Springsteen's worst recorded moment.
"Suspended in my masquerade"
Answers on a postcard please...
Still a great song though 37 years down the track
Are you saying, barney, that...
...Bruce Springsteen has never again scaled the dizzy heights of his first album? Seriously?
EDIT: re the above post. Great minds, etc.
Anyhow it's Nebraska
unless that is separate, being his first solo album, as opposed to with E Street Band, in which case, it works!
Nah
Nebraska is the critic's choice and its best song "Highway Patrolman" is better covered by Johnny Cash. Also "Born To Run" has "Thunder Road", the Boss's best song. Discuss.
A discussion.
Bollox. Much as I like Johnny Cash, sometimes his pedestrian pacing of words, autocue piloting, I think it is called, lets him down very badly, as in his version of, I agree, Nebraskas finest. Bruce still does it best, but Dar Williams (as in the underated Dar Williams) does a very creditable job on the Nebraska covered record. On that. of course, Cash does come up trumps with a song not on the original, I'm on Fire.
I still think it is Bruces finest LP, actually solo or otherwise. Best with the E Street Band is The River, even allowing for it having made a better single LP by lopping off the few less heavyweight songs. They could have then (or earlier, to be accurate)padded out Darkness etc into a decent double.
Leonard Cohen?
Bad Company?
Queen?
Apart from the now dreadfully dated "eighties" synth sounds
I would without any other hesitations nominate Cohen's "I'm Your Man" as his peak. Humour, warmth, great tunes and his lovely croaky voice makes it toppermost of the poppermost for this picker. Not 'arf!!
Bad Co.
Absolutely spot on there Archie.
Oasis
Definitely Maybe. A cracker of an album. Haven't even got halfway to it since.
The treatment's working.
I've no comment to make.
I was worried about you
Nearly a day to react.
Some more - I'm sure there are dozens
Meat Loaf
Jesus Jones - you may mock. I wouldn't blame you.
Frankie Goes To Hollywood
Marvin Lee Aday
Pedantic maybe, but Stoney & Meatloaf was the debut. And it stinks.
OK, Maybe Not Springsteen Then . . .
. . . but I still stand by Van and Roxy. The latter as much for the complete package as anything. The former because 40 years on it still sounds like nothing else on God's earth. It was said of James Joyce's Ulysses that on reading it you could rebuild the Dublin he writes about brick-by-brick. Astral Weeks comes close to that for the Belfast of the 50s and 60s before the Provos and the town planners got their hands on it. Unfortunately, when I tried to tell Van all this, he seemed to take great exception at the idea that his very best work was done so long ago. I guess we all would. Even when it's true.
Ooo THAT must have been a fun conversation...
How did the old curmudgeon react?
(edit: I realise that this thread isn't meeting the EU quota for the use of the word 'curmudgeon' when referring to Van so I've put one in)
Aztec Camera
High Land Hard Rain is a masterpiece which Roddy Frame has never managed to repeat. I don't know whether it's better to go through life knowing that you'll never be as good as you were at 21 (or however young he was at the time), or just to be pleased that at least once, you were THAT good.
I'm still convinced that Roddy could be that good again at some point, but - let's face it - a lot of bands really only have one album's worth of decent material in them, Oasis being the perfect case in point.
This is not to belittle them - personally, i'm in awe of anyone who's got one good song in them.
Here it is
http://open.spotify.com/user/discostu/playlist/4eBT6BMTJMXRlaY5I9saSW
OJ
I reckon his mates Orange Juice reached their zenith on their first album too.
.. and a few more; Ultravox!, Lloyd Cole & The Commotions, Ian Dury & The Blockheads, Deaf School, The Stranglers.
The Stranglers
I preferred "Black & White" myself, thought that was their peak.
Ian dury
Do It Yourself still shades it for me.
One duff track
Isn't 'Beside You' (track 2) rather annoying though? I have got into the album, but really, he does seem to repeat the title over and over and over and over and over...
Little Richard did that on 'Tutti Frutti' as well...
Really wrecks a song doesn't it? :-)
new
what about the Artic Monkeys the Undertones the Specials in fact do most bands not do their best work on their 1st album. Only the real giants get better with age and only up until a certain age and then they turn to shit and i include all of the above so matbe they reach a peak in the middle and slide down .....has anybody heard U2,s new one case in point
Digested Van
For me, the big four, in n particular o, are as follows:
Astral Weeks itself ("Between the viaducts of your dreams")
Madame George ("Kids out in the street collecting bottle tops")
Sweet Thing ("Walk and talk in gardens all wet with rain")
and
Cypress Avenue (" That mansion on the hill")
Just listened to them again and two things hit me:
1) the bass playing really is mental - in a good way - from start to finish
2) Van was 23 years old when it first came out
Civil-engineering issues
I've always had a problem with "between the viaducts of your dreams". If it's "viaducts" in the plural, are we talking about what's between two viaducts on the same road, or two viaducts on different roads but over the same river? Or does he mean between two (or more) of the piers forming the arches of a single viaduct?
It sounds great, but WTF does it mean?
Alph-the sacred river
Archie, you've reminded me inescapably of the Peter Cook/John bird sketch about two bemused builders attempting to work out how to build the stately pleasure dome of Kubla Khan ...
(http://jillandhal.home.att.net/halqn/peterck.htm)
John Bird: A sacred river?
Peter Cook: Running right through the structure. He specified that.
John Bird: We’ll need a plumber then. I can have Ronnie bodge up a river for you and we can bung up a sign saying, ‘Sacred River of Alph’. Something along those lines.
Peter Cook: Yes, but we’ve still got a problem with his specifications.
John Bird: What’s that, then?
Peter Cook: These caverns he wants.
John Bird: Caverns are a doddle! How big does he want them?
Peter Cook: Well, this is the big crunch that we come to.
John Bird: Oh no, he doesn’t want another river, does he? He doesn’t want a sacred river Crunch, does he?
Peter Cook: No, he doesn’t want a sacred river Crunch, but with these caverns, you see, he’s specified, here, on the docket there, ‘measureless to man’.
John Bird: Measureless? He wants caverns you can’t measure?
Peter Cook: Yes.
John Bird: But how does he know they’ll fit? I mean, he knows caverns come by the yard, doesn’t he?
(edit: I can't hear Rush's Xanadu without thinking of this now ...)
The bass
was the thing we had trouble with. But now we love it.
The fact that he was a few years younger than we are now, ahem, is just amazing.
The bassist
The bassist was noted jazz bassist Richard Davis. He'd previously recorded for several Blue Note albums, including Eric Dolphy's sole outing for that label, the posthumously issued classic Out To Lunch! Davis's other Blue Note sessions included several Andrew Hill albums. He's worked with many others since then, and is still active.
Other noted jazz musicians on the album were Modern Jazz Quartet drummer Connie Kaye and guitarist Jay Berliner, who'd previously had played on Charles Mingus' two ensemble albums for the Impulse! label.
Lyrics
If I ventured in the slipstream Between the viaducts of your dream Where immobile steel rims crack And the ditch in the back roads stop Could you find me? Would you kiss-a my eyes? To lay me down In silence easy To be born again To be born again From the far side of the ocean If I put the wheels in motion And I stand with my arms behind me And I'm pushin' on the door Could you find me? Would you kiss-a my eyes? To lay me down In silence easy To be born again To be born again There you go Standin' with the look of avarice Talkin' to Huddie Ledbetter Showin' pictures on the wall Whisperin' in the hall And pointin' a finger at me There you go, There you go Standin' in the sun darlin' With your arms behind you And your eyes before There you go Takin' good care of your boy Seein' that he's got clean clothes Puttin' on his little red Shoes I see you know he's got clean clothes A-puttin' on his little red shoes A-pointin' a finger at me And here I am Standing in your sad arrest Trying to do my very best Lookin' straight at you Comin' through, darlin' Yeah, yeah, yeah If I ventured in the slipstream Between the viaducts of your dreams Where immobile steel rims crack And the ditch in the back roads stop Could you find me Would you kiss-a my eyes Lay me down In silence easy To be born again To be born again To be born again In another world In another world In another time Got a home on high Ain't nothing but a stranger in this world I'm nothing but a stranger in this world I got a home on high In another land So far away So far away Way up in the heaven Way up in the heaven Way up in the heaven Way up in the heaven In another time In another place In another time In another place Way up in the heaven Way up in the heaven We are goin' up to heaven
We are goin' to heaven In another time In another place In another time In another place In another face.
Aaahh
Like Archie no idea what it all means. But it sure does work. Will be playing that tonight while dinner is being cooked. Thanks for typing that marathon lyric.
some suggestions and some comments
television first album
patti smith first album
gang of four
going back louis armstrong's hot club
split enz
leonard cohen
admittedly successors pretty damn good
re van -for many years he has disowned astral weeks coz he didn't do the arrangements. It is obvious he is only in thios latest thng for the money hios last umpteenth albums have been complete crap. Moondance has some real clunkers glad tidings,come runnig , these dreams and everyone and the flute is hackneyed. There I've said it.
Give me the fleece of veedon ,a review of st dominic or his later celtic forays any day.
time to hard nose...
Which Enz?
Which Split Enz did you have in mind? The laser-etched, twin-Finn [i]True Colours[/i] (which I bought after seeing them on Whistle Test) or the earlier, only-released-in-Middle-Earth stuff before Neil Finn joined the band?
Siouxsie & the Banshees - The Scream
Not just bash 'em and thrash 'em punk, this had dark subject matter. "Should I throw things at the neighbours/expose myself to strangers/kill myself or...you?" was a typical line. But it sounds like she really, really means it (man). And a version of Helter Skelter that would have scared Charles Manson.
What about A Kiss in The Dreamhouse?
I think Siouxsie's finest moment came about four LPs down the line - it's the point where the band really gelled musically and lyrically, and i think John McGeoch (RIP) did his best guitar work on this record.
Sort of agree with both of you
The Scream was unique in their catalogue, everything subsequent was less dark and strange. However they still had some great stuff to follow, and AKITD is superb. I'm also a fan of Juju, but possibly as it was the first album which really opened my eyes to the power and possibilities and artistry of this thing called pop music.
Lone Justice
by Lone Justice - OK they only made 2 records before self combusting but the first album is a classic.
Tanita Tikaram
Does anyone know of anything else but Ancient Heart?
Sade - Diamond Life
Tracy Chapman's eponymous offering.
The Police - 'Outlandos D'Amour'
It's got 'Can't Stand Losing You', 'So Lonely' and 'Roxanne'. And not a whiff of Koestler or lesson-giving Brontosauri...
Does it count if the first one was duff too?
Despite containing those three songs it's still not a very good album is it? I agree that it's their best though. If ever there was a singles band masquerading as a rock band it was/is The Police.
Counting Crows
I keep buying their CDs but I'm afraid they aren't going to hit the heights of August and Everything After again.
Great debut
but my favourite and Crows best is the third one - This Desert Life.
This Desert Life?
I think I prefer Hard Candy.
Chacun a son gout I guess.
BTW you might like to search the interweb thingy for a free download of Blof's half Dutch language cover of Holiday in Spain.
and, if you're a CC enthusiast...
...you will of course have the 'Shim Sham' live shows from New Orleans? Adam alone with an acoustic and too many beers - generally just drunken cover versions but a few CC numbers in there as well
Crowstown
If you're a Crows fan, head that way where there's lots of stuff to download.
Over the last year or so they've been compiling live versions of the studio albums. The live Hard Candy has just been made available, although I've not downloaded it yet.
Totally agree there...
...AAEA was a staggeringly good debut.
The second album (Recovering The Satelites) was 50/50 but then that was it; bolt well and truly shot
I still love em
I thing Counting Crows biggest challenge to listners has been the change in the genre of music across some of the albums and even within albums. For me I love the contrasts but for some people they just dont fit into a particular bracket (apart from the obvious "whinging" label)
As a big fan of theirs I will admit that they have been "up and down" but 1492 from their last CD is as good as anything they have done previously (IMO).
Saturday Night & Sunday Morning
I've not bought it and it's the only one I don't have apart from the compilation. As a Crows fan, 1 great song aside, can you wholeheartedly recommend it? Should I just buy a download of 1492?
Watch The Sopranos . . .
. . . series five finale, played out to the sound of Van's Glad Tidings. Never heard anything less clunky in me puff.
Michael Jackson (solo)
Guns n' Roses
Gomez
Black Grape
The Stone Roses
Belle & Sebastian
Tigermilk is their best, even though ...Sinister runs it very close.
More votes for The Undertones, Orange Juice, Lloyd Cole, Stone Roses, Oasis.
As for the above posters claiming REM, The Charlatans, The Strokes, The Beatles.... sorry, no way.
B&S
I'm of the opinion that they've never put out a bad album but I wouldn't say Tigermilk is their best. I think the first 6 tracks are the best opening 6 of any of their LPs but it tails off after that. I'm more of an ...Arab Strap man myself
Michael Jackson
If you discount his “kiddie” solo albums on Motown, Michael Jackson’s first proper adult solo album was Off The Wall. It’s his best.
Yes...
it is. 'Thriller' comes nowhere near in my opinion... I've never owned it, but I must be on my third copy of 'Off The Wall' by now.
the songs
on Off the Wall wipe the floor with Thriller..the singings not half bad (get it??) either..plus superb playing,arranging. Still play it at parties despite occasional strange looks from the those that can't seperate the man from the music.
Jethro Tull
Should have jacked it in after "This Was...". Maybe after "Stand Up" actually. Blodwyn Pigs debut also brought home the bacon....(sorry)
Mike Oldfield
Surely I can't be the only one here who thinks that Mike Oldfield has never matched Tubular Bells?
No, you're not the only one.
Retropath referred to it yesterday. It's waaaaaay upthread.
Serves me right
My extensive research consisted of searching for "Oldfield" in the page. Should have searched for "tubular" instead.
D'oh!
Dexys Midnight Runners
and 'young soul rebels', never bettered that one. Have tried listening to the much touted 'dont stand me down'a few times and don't get it, should i keep trying?
Yes, Stick With It . . .
. . . if only for This Is What's She Like and the sublime Knowledge Of Beauty. Great videos too.
And yes, Spotify does have it...
Terence Trent D'Darby's first album is fantastic, followed by a lot of what-the-heck-is-that. From my youth, Hue and Cry, Deacon Blue and Furniture stand out as over-after-one-outing bands.
Recently, Franz Ferdinand, Kaiser Chiefs and (it might just be me) Audio Bullys all ran out of steam after one release.
oh not them!
Hue & Cry - puffed up pretenders, thought they were really important, and that their opinions on everything from Scottish independence to NHS reform were more important than anyone else's ... loathed his voice too.
I remember the last funny thing Q did was offer them £100 to split up!
Completely agree about H&C...
...but how could I resist this when I was 18?
"I refuse, I defy inhibition, escape definition"
And it was great white soul music, despite the later pretentiousness - but age has not been kind, I'll grant you.
How Men Are
I think of Aztec Camera's "How Men Are" as a deliberate dig at H&C - "here you go, a blue-eyed soul song about sexual politics, tenderly and cleverly expressed, great tune, great harmonies ... and now back to the main show ... ". And the spelling out of
P-E-R-S-P-E-C-T-I-V-E is magnificent.
is one version, but I am sure I remember seeing them do it on Pebble Mill.
Lester Bangs on Astral Weeks
I see that this has been mentioned elsewhere on the site, but not, as far as I can tell, been linked. So if you haven't already (and I hadn't) why not read:
http://inyourears.com/archives/2004/10/lester_bangs.html
I can see why this is such a celebrated essay-though I must admit for me the Lorca he ended it with was even more of a find
Arctic Monkeys, Howling Bells, Franz Ferdinand, Kaiser Chiefs
The Coral
The La's
Not the Strokes - I really like the second one
Lynyrd Skynyrd
Wu Tang Clan
De La Soul
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
Tori Amos