Entertainment For Lively Minds
You can always find me in the kitchen
I like music. I like music A LOT. I listen to it whenever I can, and will happily prattle on about it for many an hour when given the opportunity. When not doing these things, I'm usually writing about music.
However, I rarely go to gigs.
Yesterday, I had tickets to go and see The Decemberists in Hammersmith. I bought them ages ago, but as the day wore on, I realised I was looking forward to it less and less. By 3pm, I really couldn't be bothered and by 5pm, I'd made my mind up not to go, and so I didn't. A quick count means that in the last 6 months I've had tickets for five gigs... and I've been to one of them.
Why is this? I've come up with three possible reasons but I'm wondering if there's something else which makes me so unlike most music fans.
- Music is a very personal experience. Listening to music I love gives me a feeling very particular to me; I don't feel the need to share that with a load of strangers.
- You always stand next to an idiot. After having paid to go to a gig, you don't want the words being sung tunelessly by the lagered-up cretin behind you.
- I'm a grumpy, lazy bastard (I don't like the cinema either)
So, anyone else feel like this? Can you suggest something to help capture some gig magic? Or am I doomed to live a life of melodic solitude?
- More from Joe R.
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I've never been a big gig-goer.
I like records much more than live shows. Possibly it's because most bands don't give you a radically different musical experience, live, than they do on the record - the sound is likely to be polished and high-quality in most decent-sized venues, the technology available to bands now means that there's almost no studio sound that can't be reliably recreated live, so for me most gigs are just a case of standing in a mass of sweaty drunk people not quite enjoying the music as much as you do through headphones.
I'm not a big fan of big presses of people, so a band has to offer something really special in their live show to tempt me. The Hold Steady, for example: to see them live is to understand them that much better. They are a live band first and foremost. But that's rare.
Agreed
I've absolutely no wish to go to some stadium or huge outside venue like Glastonbury. I'd much rather go and see someone in a smaller venue than in some enormodome staring at a giant screen, but even better the opportunity just to listen alone without interruption.
Having been to see Nick Lowe recently I must say it was a different experience altogether, the Buxton Opera House being a bijou place to see someone in. Although even that was very much a last minute decision.
Still love gigs
As someone who as a young man never felt particularly comfortable in pubs and clubs, I loved and love gigs. Including all the ritual - the set-up, looking at the gear (as recently mentioned on a podcast), the sounds. Don't get out as much now it's still my favourite waste of time [(c) M.Crenshaw]
I can understand not liking live music
for whatever reason (I must admit I rarely regret going to a gig) but buying tickets and then not showing up seems like something else not linked to the music or bands.
I don't understand that.
I've done it too: had a ticket for something, then ultimately not really fancied it and blown it off. What are you suggesting it's symptomatic of?
Too much
money?
I think I can help
Send an SAE and a blank cheque to:
Cadabra's Patented Surplus Cash Alleviation System
94 Ellen Street
Hepworth
London
SW1A 2AA
And watch the pounds disappear!
You may have a point
I normally buy these tickets quite far in advance and I think I probably get swept up in the excitement of it being a band I like. As the gig approaches, that novelty wears off somewhat.
Plus, what I didn't mention in the OP, is that all these gigs have been in London on a weeknight. I don't live in London, so I have to be in the mood to go. By the time I've got a train ticket and paid for a cab home, it's an extra £25 and I don't get in until 1am.
But you're a young whippersnapper!
Bloody hell, Joe, take yourself forward in time a decade or two, with maybe a mini-Joe or Josephine keeping you up all hours, and babysitters costing an arm and a leg, and believe you me you'll kill for the chance of a night out at a noisy gig! (For the record, I got in at 1.45am and was up at 6.30am with the sprogs, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it, you lightweight).
If you really aren't getting any pleasure out of gig-going any more, then don't do it. But don't bloomin' well buy your tickets and not use them. That's just plain wrong.
Presuming you bought two tickets for roughly the same price as I did (just under £40) then I'm not sure that not going to save yourself 'the extra £25' train fare makes very good economic sense.
Maths Boy, I'm disappointed in you.
You've pretty much got me bang to rights
I am a bit of a lightweight, no denying it.
And I wasn't claiming that I was "saving" £25, just that it was extra expenditure I wasn't prepared to stump up the cash for at the time.
Anyway, it was my loss in the end. I didn't get to see The Decemberists OR you and many others of the massive.
I did have a nice pizza though.
I don't go to many gigs anymore
and I now only go if I really, really want to see that person. Gig going is expensive and it's a bit of an effort too.
I don't like being pushed about by other people, I don't like to stand and I like songs to sound as they do on the record. I'm often disappointed by gigs on the whole (see my Steve Winwood review from last October).
I've never been to a festival and don't think I've missed a thing. I'm happier listening to music rather than seeing it if I'm honest.
Though I might have liked to have been at Woodstock.
Strange thing is
I do like festivals. I think maybe it's because you can always stand far back from the crush, dip in and out of the music, don't have to wait around for bands if you don't want, and it's as much time spent with a few friends as anything else.
I only go for the day though. I won't camp; it's the devil's own pastime.
Ultra agreement
I've read your opening post, and now this, and I think we may be the same person.
Well
I've certainly never seen us in the same room.
I loved going to gigs when I was younger,
and didn't really care about the idiots about me - was probably one of them anyway - but I was probably quite lucky in the late 70's and early 80's because people largely went there to listen to the band, not a chance to catch up with Camilla about how the interior decoration was progressing. I am less tolerant these days and over the past few years just can't tolerate halfwits chattering away and the fact that people have got a lot more aggressive. Enjoy the concert, listen to the band. I stopped going to The Pogues for this very reason - "is it the fairytale song yet ?" - and now only go very occasionally. Now I like to sit down, have nice clean toliets and not have to wait too long for the band to come on. That's why I love the Royal Festival Hall, saw a brilliant Sparks show there a few years back. There's no answer, sometimes you feel up to it, the band are on top form and you come out with a glow. At other times, you just want to get the hell out, have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.
Good post...
there's a new Thread in there somewhere..."Venues with the cleanest toilets"...!
Sparks
Was that the Moz Meltdown show? Kimono My House AND Lil' Beethoven in full! A fantastic night. My rather skeptical then-FPO was utterly converted there and then.
I was at that show too...
fantastic night indeed, certainly one of my all time favourite gigs...of all time. That's how to put on a value for money show - didn't hear anyone talking through that!
It all seems
alien to me now. And I'm not sure if I ever really enjoyed a gig as I am so self conscious about one thing or another.
Being tall I try to be considerate to those behind me but get no consideration in return.
I hate the constant flow of people coming from the back to the front and vice versa.
I have the bladder of a 90 year colonel so I don't drink anymore at gigs otherwise I miss everything. That also leaves all my inhibitions in tact and I become more aware of myself.
I have totally outgrown festivals now and shuddr at the thought of three days in a field.
The only live music I enjoy now is a one day dance festival type thing where I can pop a disco biscuit and lose myself in various tents.
But that is very very rarely.
You would more likely find me on my couch in my comfortable flat playing guitar.
Underwhelmed aplenty
I wholeheartedly sympathise. I very occasionally push myself and my partner through twisted hoops of inconvenience to get to a gig and - invariably - come away horribly underwhelmed and regretful of the entire experience. I'm 50 now, with a lifetime of gig-going behind me, but I'm utterly convinced that the experience ain't what it used to be in most cases, and it's not *just* the fact I'm something of an old giffer nowadays.
In nine out of ten cases, the act just doesn't seem to have their heart and soul in it like they used too; there's an air of vaguely detatched cycnism in evidence, a sense of contracts being obliged. Nothing needs to be proved. It's hard work for them, so it's hard work for you...
That sense comes from experience of small to mid-size gigs and a selection of recent-years festivals, from Glastonbury through Latitude to - latterly - End of the Road.
There are, of course, a few honourable exceptions – the Decemberists four years ago (*not* my recent Bristol outing), CW Stoneking, The Low Anthem, Edwyn Collins, Teddy Thompson, Black Joe Lewis, The Pet Shop Boys, Elbow ...and the Mumfords a couple of years back in a sweaty cellar. I have neither the time nor the inclination to start listing the disappointments.
Aaah, bugger it. I'm staying at home...
But sharing live music with...
an appreciative and responsive audience is one of the best experiences in the world - ever! Or as a footballer might say after scoring a goal "even better than sex", or even as a porn star might say after having sex "even better than scoring a goal."
Unfortunately these experiences, the musical ones I mean, not the sex or scoring goals, are getting more difficult to find.
I don't enjoy many gigs anymore - it's easy to joke about the age thing, and I guess it does have a bearing but I still like seeing small bands in small venues, I don't want to give up on seeing live music just yet.
But I have seen a change in audiences over the years - the old Word bug-bears, talking through gigs, mobile phones, lack of decent venues and proliferation of corporate sponsored souless places.
I don't think it's just me being an old fogey saying "things were better back in the day" - I have been to hundreds of gigs since the early 80's and I honestly can't remember having to put up with the sort of annoying habits and lack of interest in the actual band on stage from a large part of the audience as nmuch as I have over the past 5 or 6 years. OK, I might have had to fight with skinheads or dodge bottles of piss - but give me that over some tosser talking through a beautiful Go-Betweens acoustic number any day!
Argh!
Mobile phone cameras! I forgot them!
I am yet to see the point of people videoing parts of the gig on their phone. When will you play it back? Who will be impressed by it? Plus, the worst thing, you're ruining an experience which you would (presumably) enjoy because you're being passive and standing outside of it.
I seem to having one of those days where I think everyone (bar the Massive, obviously) is a knobhead, sorry.
I agree...
A live experience should be just that - when I said I like the shared experience, I meant with people who are there, at that moment - not shared with 1,000's of people afterwards on YouTube.
Last Saturday
I saw the Decemberists in Bexhill and commented to Mrs L on the lack of mobile phones being held aloft. I thought perhaps some kind of corner had been turned but I fear it was a fluke. Bexhill is God's waiting room so the sheer effort of raising an arm above head height was probably just too much for most of the residents.
Goals
"Unfortunately these experiences, the musical ones I mean, not the sex or scoring goals, are getting more difficult to find."
Two out of three for me: I haven't scored a goal for years.
are you Fernando Torres?
?
Over crowding
is also a problem for me.
Although I am not a happy camper in crowds I could probably happily watch a live act in a small venue like Bordeline if they didn't over fill it.
This clamour for takings over comfort means they won't get my pounds again and thus lose out in the long run.
The last time I was there was for William Elliot Whitmore and about ten minutes before he came on the place was busy enough but then they kept on coming and you couldn't move. It was uncomfortable and I couldn't wait for the gig to finish. Shame, as I would go back time and again but for that.
I still go to gigs but in small venues.
I simply don't like big crowds, long queues, surly service when you eventually get to the expensive bar, hours to get out of the car park and getting home wearied when I should be buzzing.
And manners. Don't get me going but in all the discussion here about "other people" and their behaviour, it's a lack of manners and consideration for others that we're really talking about.
I love music and I'm of a mindset that says watching the concert is my night out. I think a very large proportion of people who go to gigs nowadays go for a night out, with a band thrown in. It's a huge difference.
True, but...
was it always like this? It's a subject we talk about often but I've never been able to figure out if it's just me getting less tolerant and looking back with rose tinted glasses or if gigs, say 15-20 (or more) years ago were really any better.
As I alluded to in a post above, one thing I don't have to worry about anymore is getting into a punch-up at a gig - nowadays there seems to be a more passive/aggressive attitude, maybe not such a physical threat but still a negative.
I know there weren't mobiles and video cameras but were audiences really any different? I think so, but what do you reckon?
You could be right
In the old days I would have been down the front in the mosh pit so wouldn't have cared if there had been any anti-social bods at the back chatting. I have gradually moved back through the hall though and I'm now often at the back so I hear the chatting. I know it's always gone on and I know that when there are drunk people around some of them are going to have little thought fro their surroundings but I've been near the back for a good 15 years now and I'm sure that in that time it's got worse.
Not being able to smoke
has really put me off going to gigs. I love smoking most of the time but doubly so when I've had a drink or am getting excited listening to music. In a way I think it's cranked up people's sense of entitlement that each gig should be 'just how they want it' - delicately perfumed, atmosphere of a library, band playing exactly the songs they want to hear.
not being able to smoke
stopped me going to the cinema. Stopped puffing years ago, but still now hardly ever go to the movies. And when I do I miss looking at the smoke moving in the projector light..
Joe, now I'm sorry I didn't get to see you last night.
But I understand, really.
I struggle a lot with the audience at gigs now. The Decemberists were AMAZING, but the crowd were pretty hateful. JoLean and I were in the stalls, and from behind us came this background rumble of chatter, chatter, chatter.
I had a couple next to me loudly crunching their way through a rustling bag of Butterkist. Another two guys were talking loudly through the whole gig - seriously, they didn't stop for anything, a bit of banter is fine but this was continuous. And just as the gig started, 7 foot hairy man came and stood directly in front of us.
I don't think I'm cut out for crowds any more.
So I'm less enthusiastic about gig going than I used to be, and I'm never going to the Hammersmith Apollo again unless it's one of my very favourite bands.
Having said that, audiences still tend to be well behaved at the Royal Festival Hall, so I'm always happy to go there.
Fewer in the Circle?
I think it must have been livelier in the stalls, it certainly sounded noisier below. If anything I thought those around me in the circle were more sedate than I'm used to.
Very civilised we were too Malc
I had come from work and was wearing a suit. Lots of smiley couples upstairs. No prats and no popcorn. I did leave before the end though...halfway through the Mariner's song audience participation bit. I used to work in Hammersmith and experience dictates it's an hour back to Sarf London, but you missed out mateyboy. I managed to get a spare from one of the Massive (Rosbif), the gig had sold out.
Buy in advance
One of the reasons that I like to get a ticket in advance is that I know that around 6 o'clock, I won't want to go out, that's especially true if I'm not even home from work then and there's a 60 minute drive into London for the gig. By the time I'm in the car and halfway down the M1, I'm usually looking forward to it again and I'm rarely disappointed. The FPO has a gig tonight which means an hour's drive to Rushden and you can be certain that by 6:30 neither of us will want to go out but by 8:30 with all the equipment set up (and a pint in my hand!) we'll be glad to be there.
Listen to this man.
For he am right. I've missed out on plenty because of the 6.30 ennui. It is wrong and must be crushed.
Music at home is one of the finest pleasures for me too but to go nuts about something with like-minded souls once in a while is another proverbial kettle... enjoy yourself! (It's later than you think.)
seconded
I felt the same last week. Mrs Dog cried off completely, but I forced myself to go to The Decemberists and they were great, really glad I went. My first gig since The Bad Seeds were touring The Lyre of Orpheus.
Paul's rules for a happy gig-going experience
These rules are my distillation of my experiences of gig-going as a fiftysomething who is now attending far more gigs than he used to, egged on admittedly by a music-mad son who likes his dad to buy his tickets for him...
1. Choose your venue with care. Preferably small, preferably standing. Standing because...
2. If your neighbours are annoying you, you can move. Taking the moral high ground and standing your ground (and fuming) is counterproductive. Avoid the braying masses by standing elsewhere. Preferably...
3. Stand at the barrier. Not centre stage, but well off to the left or right. This is ideal because:
3a. You will be stood next to the speakers. It will be loud, so you will not be able to hear the fuckwits.
3b. Off to the side, you avoid the jumping, moshing, crowdsurfing fuckwits.
3c. You will have an ace view of the action. And you will have something solid to lean on.
3d. You will be at the front - with the fans. Who are less likely to talk, and more likely to focus on the performers.
4. Don't drink. You WILL need to go to the loo, and you WILL lose your place. And have to stand with the fuckwits.
5. Choose your act with care. As Bob says above, there are some performers who are MADE to be heard live. Focus on them.
6. At festivals - all the above rules apply, especially the 'venue' rules. It is a fact that a small band on a small stage is ALWAYS a better experience than the biggest band in the world on the Pyramid. If you want to see U2 or Beyonce at Glastonbury - set your Sky+ before you go and head off to the Park or the Acoustic tent instead.
Good rules
Can I add a 3e please? Wear earplugs - they allow you even more freedom of movement without discomfort because you can get nearer the speakers than most people want to go.
All the above
and you get the concert you deserve.
If you make an effort then it pays off. If you bundle up at the last minute you will at the back with the talkers and casuals. Yes, hanging around during support slots and roadies is dull but you have friends to talk to or if not a likeminded fan who got there early like you. Have a chat - it passes the time if nothing else
I'm off to see Imelda May at the Roundhouse tonight so I'll get there shortly after doors, go to my favoured spot, chat to a couple of people, get some bottled water for the night (this works for me cos I don't drink), see if the sound is ok by the support act and move accordingly if not. I should have a great time cos having got there early I'll be moslty surrounded by people who also did and are there to listen.
There's not a lot you can do if Bigfoot comes and stands in front of you but you can just stand in front of him instead if he's RIGHT in front of you (the selfish git). Bigfoot is often accompanied by Little Mrs Bigfoot who is 3ft tall so stand behind her!
On that tip - don't bring an unwilling long suffering partner - you will begin talking to them 'you alright? its not much longer etc' and start arguing to the annoyance of everyone
At Brixton they have several barrier across the floor so if you don't want to go up front but want something to lean on and place saver then go there. If you have a weak bladder, don't stand or if you do, off to the side near the facilities.
Shepherds Bush is a flippin nightmare with its bars either side of the floor and behind the desk. Go up Level 1, seats and a bar off to the side in a different room that even has a screen so you won't miss anything.
If you've made the effort to get a ticket then the least you should do is go that extra bit further to make it enjoyable. If a band is shit live, then lesson learned, don't go again. I don't recognise this '99% of em don't want to be there' model.
Ok real life might get in the way so you can't get there early cos of work etc but a lot of the things that have been listed can be avoided if you get the venue and your place in it right.
And if you can, go to stop on the tour that is outside a big city, often smaller venue and more attentive crowds in my experience.
Bigfoot
I'm blessed with inches (ooer, missus!) and make the effort to stand quite far back from the stage so as not to annoy to many people; and if somebody asks politely if they could stand infront of me, then I'm more than happy to let them (assuming they're not the same height, taller, or wearing a novelty hat). However, if they just think it's ok to try and move me out of the way, then I will stand my ground and refuse to move.
Agreed
and I think people are just afraid to ask sometimes or take it as a complete insult even thou the person seen as the offender has no idea.
To be fair, most of the more vertically blessed do have a quick look round to check they haven't stood right in front of one of the 7 dwarfs (hello up there!)
Effort
Going to gigs has always been an effort for me, and most of the time it hasn't been worth it. The inabilty to drive and the fact that I live in a town that is never on a band's tour diary means I really have to want to go.
When I was at university in Liverpool, it was a lot easier, and arguably better. I could get into town easily, and get back from the city centre after the gig, and I didn't have to worry about getting up for work the following morning. Not every gig was worth it, but at least I didn't have to waste money on travel costs and hotels.
These days though, I feel like I'm past it. Since 2007 I've been to about five gigs, and whilst they were fine, they didn't really warrant £40 being spent on them. One of most recent forays into the gig world was a triple header between the man from Grandaddy, John Grant and Midlake. I missed Grandaddy, caught the last song from John Grant and walked out of Midlake because my friend and I thought they were shit.
And don't get me started on festivals. I've been to one and never want to go again. You know sometimes when you go into HMV there's often a gaggle of teenagers looking through the posters? Imagine going into a field in which thousands of those teenagers are- all off the reigns for the first time since finishing their GCSEs, A-Levels, breakfast etc- and you'll have a good idea about my attitude towards Reading Festival in particular. I'm sure there are friendlier, better festivals out there, but they'd have to ban the poster-teens from them to be so.
Sounds like it's the distance that's the problem
I'm lucky enough to live in Utrecht in Holland in which there are three or four decent venues. However, often bands only come to Amsterdam and I used to regularly go through the hour long journey to get up there. However, once my kids were born I pretty much stopped that and have only been to three gigs in Amsterdam since August 2006.
Instead I go to my local venues. I can cycle to all of them and have still been able to see the likes of Elbow, The Phantom Band, The National, The Black Keys, Besnard Lakes, Broken Records etc amongst others. I'm off to see John Grant in a 400 capacity venue in a few weeks.
Admittedly I'm lucky to have an alternative to going up to the big city. I don't know how people do it to be honest.
Buying gig tickets is always
a triumph of hope over experience. The number of truely great gigs I've been to is but a thin proportion of the total.
In the early days, it was still novel enough for none of the discomforts to matter. These days I tend to pick my gigs based on venues where I think these problems are less likely to occur.
And like Joe, I feel much the same about the cinema.
wow
I'm really quite surprised that there's so little love for the live experience among the massive. I, for one, bloody love it. I'll never forget my first 'proper' gig - the House of Love in a kent sports centre in 1989. That sparked an addiction I still have today. Sure, I'm too old for the mosh now but I'm just as excited to see my favorite acts now as I was then. I don't subscribe to the theory that most acts can't cut it live - those that disappoint are rare in my experience.
For me, live is one of life's great pleasures. Until recently I saw at least a gig a month, often more; and I've attended 1 or 2 festivals every summer for 20 years. Life changed 18 months ago and suddenly baby sitting was an issue; despite that I'm still thrilled to be seeing two of my favourite live acts (Elbow and Tom Mcrae) in the next fortnight. And I'm working on a Latitude plan.
I agree there are idiots at every gig; that's been the case for as long as I've been buying tickets, though I've noticed it more as I've found myself edging ever further from the stage. My favourite spot is somewhere a couple of metres back from the mosh- close enough to the action, freedom to move if required. Of course, these days most of the bands I want to see aren't the sort to provoke a surging moshpit (something else to judge your age by I suspect) but you can still make a rough estimate. I've also developed a taste for the sit-down gig (John Grant at the South Bank was magical last year).
In short, I say give it another go, make it a special event, choose act and venue wisely and go and have fun - I think the joy of the shared musical experience cannot be overstated.
And this man. Rightness here also.
Listen to Uncle Monty, and do as he says. Good boy.
Uncle, you're right
(as were the other posters who pointed it out further up the thread).
I've been going to gigs for over half my life. And, when I started, I'd be absolutely mashed up against the front barriers, moshing with the best of them and absolutely loving it.
As I've grown older, I've naturally been gravitating towards the back of the venue, where it's less crowded. It had never occurred to me that's also where the talkers tend to gather, but that makes perfect sense.
So. It's not audiences that have changed. It's me.
*sobs*
But Hannah, you don't need to mosh.
Up against the barriers, off to the side. Next to the speakers, earplugs if necessary.
No moshing, no chat. Excellent view. It's box seat, honestly!
Sounds great
I was rather taken with all the advice in your post elsewhere in this thread, actually. I'm going to give it a go. Thanks x
Me...
...too.
The other thing that is great about gigs is that they can make people/bands you were indifferent to seem good or great and bands you already like seem even better.
I definitely think even more of the Decemberists after seeing them live this week.
Absurd lead times
I'd find it very hard to look forward for something for the many, many months it's now commonplace to have to wait between securing a ticket and going to gig in the UK by anyone you're likely to have heard of.
Why do they do that? For the promoter to earn six months' interest on all the cash collected so far in advance or what?
It's completely unnecessary. And it hasn't always been that way. WIWAL tickets even for major acts at major venues went on sale about 4-6 weeks ahead of time, no more.
I went to see Barcelona in Seville last weekend. I had a brilliant seat, because I'd bought the ticket the day they went on sale - only ten days before the match, even though it had been scheduled since the fixture list was released last summer. And on the night the stadium was, obviously, full.
If you asked me today whether I'd fancy seeing Ocean Colour Scene doing Moseley Shouls live at the Brixton Academy, I might. But on Saturday the 11th of December? Not only might I not even be in the mood, I might not even know who I'd want to go with. Tickets in March for a gig in December? Christ, you can discover you'll need a babysitter for a baby you didn't even know you were going to have in that time.
Nail meet head.
It's the buying in advance. Most of the shows I have seen over the past few years have been in small venues mainly because its possible to get tickets about a month in advance for about a tenner (or at least under twenty).
Can I recommend gigs in the Union Chapel? Audiences generally shut the hell up in there. Maybe because its a church...
Imelda May and Jeff Beck
yes, it's much better staying at home than witnessing this from 10ft away (ie closer than this cos I don't film on mobiles at gigs)
I go to gigs all the time
It has has never occured to me not to go to something I've bought a ticket for. Not once.
Three times
I think in all my years of gig going I've only failed to use a ticket 3 times. Once, the FPO was ill and it was her that wanted to go. Once there was a mix up with house keys which meant I just couldn't go. Once when I thought it was on next week!!! Never have I had a ticket and made the decision not to go.
Three phases
buy ticket in initial rush of enthusiasm
gradually lose said enthusiasm as gig date approaches, culminating in deciding not to bother at all
being cajoled into attending on the day and invariably having a great evening and wondering why thought it could ever have ended otherwise!