My mate Jon opened a record shop five years ago, fulfilling a life-long dream. Sadly it lasted less than a year :-(

Read an interesting quote recently, which is worth bearing in mind if you do want to go ahead. I paraphrase, but it's something on the lines of "Dear Shopkeeper, the internet didn't kill your business, it just gave your customers a way to get what they actually wanted".

all the best Grant, whatever you decide to do. xx

can I be your assistant? I used to have a dream of owning my own record shop and the dream hasn't really diminished. However it would be a very brave (or stupid) person who ploughed their money into such a venture in the current climate. Like you the physical experience of going into and buying from a good record store is still unrivalled. Unfortunately with a scarcity of them around the frequency of such visits has declined. Birmingham has a dearth of good record stores which would suggest either that there is an opportunity to open a good one or that the local population aren't interested.

I'd say no. What I expect to happen is that while there are still chains and other outlets (Walmart/Target, HMV, Amazon etc), you're on a hiding to nothing, and when that primary retail trade goes the way of buggy whips, record shops will be like antique stores. And then there'll be the same sorts of spread, the low end scruffy and the high end chintzy. I could be wrong though. Wouldn't bet a lot of my own money on it.

Start with a large fortune. I'd love to open a record shop, but then I'd like to be twenty three again as well.

(musical instrument shop, that is) but the thought of biting my lip at the 'tyre-kickers' who tell me they "can buy it cheaper on the internet, mate" as I was advised by a owner of a music shop which has since closed down doesn't exactly fill me with optimism.

Just a thought, but have you considered a music café?

At least that way you'll have two streams of income to support each other.

My auntie and uncle had a kitchen showroom for a while before realising there was more of a demand for the hot food they cooked to demo their kitchens. The showroom became a café and they never looked back.

It isn't always about what you want to sell, it's what the customer wants to buy.

by starting with 2 million and then cutting your losses.

Location and USP are everything. And so are margins. You'll never undercut the big boys. If HMV can't do you have no chance. If you can offer the sort of music they don't you might stand a chance. But that means you'll have to carry wider stock and carrying stock costs money. In the good old days if my local record shop didn't stock what I wanted they'd order it for me and I'd happily wait. People won't wait anymore - they'll be on Amazon as soon as. But specialise too much and you restrict your potential market.

I reckon the only way you could make it pay is to have a large passing trade. So back to location again. Best locations are expensive. And you have to provide a good reason to make them come back. So what would your USP be? I'm not sure "record shop" really covers it anymore.

If I did start a record shop, I'd find a location near where other successful shops are. The "Ludlow" effect. The passing trade is there - you do it yourself after all. Then do your market research. Is there anything they don't do or offer?

Good luck with it. It's often said that the best time to start a new business is at the bottom of a business cycle as the only way is up. Just don't borrow too much

It was rumoured a few months ago that the tax loophole which allows good under £18 to be imported from the Channel Islands VAT free was going to close, thus bursting the cheaper-on-the-internet bubble. (This is why cds etc from online sellers often come from Guernsey.) I've not noticed a great increase in prices online, and obviously I don't want it to close, but it might even the playing-field a bit for record shops.

...the whole of 'the high street' is in crisis. Apparently Mary Portas is going to sort it all out as the govt High St czar by having a cup of tea and a stern talking-to with the guy who runs Tescos.

I'd be loath to open any kind of shop now - unless in special circs, referred to above (a great location, a place with a still-buzzing throughput of people/non-homogenised shopping area etc, preferably in prime tourist location...). The one exception to the rule seems to be coffee shops - catering for mid-to-high end clientele, affordable but offering ambience/experience and quality baking/coffee etc. And, crucially, not being a chain store coffee emporium.

The amount of non-chain decent coffee shops round my way is astonishing. The economy is buggered for a generation, getting older and poorer is terrifying and yet - and I'm a prime example myself - spending a few quid on a decent coffee and scone of a lunchtime is an exception to the prudence one has in other areas (using less petrol, curtailing entertainment/nights out, buying reduced-price groceries etc).

The way I look at it, a decent coffee shop experience is a kind of necessary indulgence - a brief sojourn into 'living the dream' even if every other aspect of the dream is becoming increasingly unaffordable. I'm sure my analysis isn't as daft as it sounds.

When the world ends, all that will remain will be cockroaches and coffee shops.

...you're probably both right! I often wonder how small independent shoe shops can survive but, sure enough, there they are: clustered around the coffee shops...

And Keith Richards is, obviously, a special case when scientists ponder the outcomes of 'extinction events'.* And Lemmy too.

(* which reminds me, was anyone else both bemused by the aburdity of the phrase while simultaneously chilled to the bone to read that global economists are discussing the seeming inevitability of a Greek 'credit event'? A euphemism like 'extraordinary rendition', isn't it? Apparently Greece will inevitably default on its billions at some point - all that's happening now is an effort to delay it into some semblance of an 'ordered collapse'. It will have a rippling effect across the world. Private Fraser was right: we're doomed.)

Who seem to be surviving with their record shops. Admittedly most of the stock is, er, recycled. Great chunks of vinyl and much variety, they have embraced the internet marketplace to boost their local sales. A couple of times a year they are visited by Japanese buyers on the hunt for rarities to ship back home in bulk. Being able to stock big-label releases at reasonable prices could be a problem but one gets around this by picking up £3 offerings from Fopp, lower than he can get wholesale.

Unless you can get reliable staff would anyone want to work 6 or 7 days a week? See also running a pub. Unless it is a licensed record shop that also sells coffee. I think I have just hit the nail on the head. Get them pissed and flog them whatever music you have on heavy rotation.

zero business nous, but I believe that a significant number of people still want to buy the physical product rather than music download/e-book and also independent retailers are to a certain extent thriving in certain areas. It depends on finding an area which isn't the finished article, but likely to be upcoming (so rents are not yet too exorbitant) and offering a good service with knowledeable staff and where buying is a pleasure rather than chore. I am basing my witterings on the independent bookshop sector and these in London are thriving, in part because the chains have failed the public, but also because they are charming places to visit. I suspect that most get by not just by sales on the shopfloor but also through mail order, events or some other way. One example is Hay On Wye which started the tradition of 'book towns' and now you can't move there for Mariella Frostrup look-alikes and politicians seeking redemption. Maybe there could be record shop towns. I'll sign off because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about now.

I have a friend who specialises in sourcing and procuring reggae records for customers. That's his niche. He also has a weekly reggae show on an independent radio station. His sourcing work involves him travelling to Jamaica 5 or 6 times a year.

He looked at opening a record shop but couldn't see how he could generate sufficient income to justify the investment and ongoing overheads. He'd also be behind the counter 6 days a week because he'd be unable to pay anyone else and so his other work would suffer.

But he makes a living operating as a 'mobile record shop', often going to reggae concerts and street fairs with a couple of boxes and making sales on site. He lives in London so he has a lot more on his doorstep to keep travel costs down. He brings in money but his wife is a lawyer and main bread winner so his passion is supported by the knowledge that his family is not dependent on his income.

One option to consider is to start out on a market stall to try and see if there is a demand for certain niche markets in record sales rather than starting with the higher overhead of a shop. Niche is the way to go and my gut feeling would be to avoid the chart stuff completely (except maybe a low volume of stock for impulse purchases) and focus on what the high street doesn't sell but people want, which is probably retro/heritage stuff.

One thing my reggae friend says helps make the sale is his knowledge of the subject matter. He's always handing out play lists to people and makes a point of knowing what his customers buy and are looking for and as a result he can sell at the top end of the market price because they trust his judgement and nous.

People still want a service and are willing to pay for it but it's knowing what the product is they're prepared to pay a premium on.

I live in a very small town, one street for shopping, a few big large edge of town supermarkets. We have five coffee shops and a Greggs which also serves coffee on the main street, which is probably less than 200 yards long.

Personally I'd love a coffee shop that played decent music, and maybe internet access so I could buy what I was listening to right there and then....

but I'm sure grateful that Heffers Sound http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/shops/SHOP10.jsp , Rise http://www.rise-music.co.uk/ , Fopp, and several in Brighton's North Laine for example, all still want to ...

However my retirement project will be a tea shop and calculator museum in the Lakes ... ;-)

No.

Between Amazon and downloading, I think there's no market for a record shop unless you can develop a very good low-cost online mail-order service to supplement it. Even then, slim pickings, I suspect.

And I know a couple of people that have done it. There are no fortunes to be made that's for sure, but with the right location and the right type of stock you can make a living. You'd be best selling second hand, perhaps with a small selection of 'new', but the margins on new are pretty small...but perhaps if you focus on more niche stuff that is less likely to be on Amazon etc. I know there are a lot of collectors out there who are increasingly disillusioned with ebay for second hand stuff and would much rather check the merchandise in a face to face transaction. It would be hard work, a lot of legwork sourcing stock, my mate trawls car boot sales and charity shops, but if you're doing something you enjoy then it's not such a chore!

It amazes me that a city like Liverpool with a tourist trade built on it's musical history only has one second hand record shop. There is a gap in that market for a well stocked, well run, cool little secondhand shop which would compliment Probe Records who have the ' new' side of things covered. We'll speak off line anyway and I can put you in touch with my pals in the biz! Ps can I have a Saturday job?!

I think the key is to combine with something else that is related. I visited a bookstore in Hudson, NY that also contained a bar (and a play area for children). For a record store you need live appearances, music related movies and possibly some sort of specialisation. Make it the only store in a large area that stocks Northern Soul, or Motown, or UK psychedelia etc. The big advantage a record store (and I'm talking about vinyl) has over ebay, amazon etc is you can inspect the records (and sometimes play them) before buying.

Most record stores I visit are dreary, unwelcoming places that look like they want to be put out of their misery.

Why do more record shops not put on more events in this country. Obviously may haven't the acreage to make it work. But the right premises, wee performance area and nice consumables would be great. Throw in sympathetically sourced books and acoutrements, and I think you have a going concern.
Bold Street/ Hardman Street area in Liverpool might be worth a look.
I notice that Hairy Records is closed for refurb, opening again in September.
But please, no posh toasties from a cellophane wrapper.

soon. We shall be serving Schnapps, chianti, porter and ouzo, pernod, vodka, sambuca. When you come in, your pockets will be overflowing but we'll take your return ticket without you even knowing

Our slogan? 'Home Is Anywhere You Hang Your Head'

I think it's run by Stephen Pastel and is a record shop, bar, restaurant and gig venue!

http://www.monocafebar.com/index.php?pid=84

The article in this month's issue, expertly written by Mark Hodkinson, was about a box of records bought in a Huddersfield shop. I am hoping it came from Wall Of Sound, a treasure trove of vinyl, CDs and artefacts. I was often in Elliot's store when it was located in Halifax but have only visited his new store only once. This was for a talk by Bill Bruford on his career and newly-released book and had a good following. The store is on 2 large floors and is how I would want a record shop to be, rather than the cramped environment found in many other collector's shops where you can hardly dig in the crates.

Mono in Glasgow is comfortably the best record shop I've had the pleasure of visiting. It has two big things going for it. One, it's a not just a record shop and two, its stock is carefully curated.

The latter point is a big one for me. Too many record stores seem to be stocked with the left-overs from previously folded shops, car boot sales or charity shops in an effort to swell the the racks. It's a depressing experience flipping through them and it makes the shop look lazy and uninterested. Mono has more more than a dozen racks of very well stocked, very carefully selected LPs covering everything. It's tough to be an expert in every genre, but we all know that house clearances and charity shops are 99% filler. No one wants those Millie Jackson LPs. If you can get a decent handle on the genres you cover, folk will come to trust the stock and take chances on music they might otherwise have just flipped past.

The fact that Mono is also part of a space that supports a cafe, bar, venue and crafts is a huge plus. The record buying demographic is getting older, and if the punter can persuade his/her other half that they're visiting a family-friendly place that just happens to have a record shop, well so much the better. I've happily killed an afternoon catching up with various friends over a pot of tea, dipping into the record racks every now and again, inevitably coming away having spent more than I would have if I'd just been there for 20 minutes or whatever the average length of visit is.

Funnily enough, the coffee-shop / music emporium double-header had crossed my mind also.
Liverpool has also crossed my mind as a possible location, as I'm well aware that Manchester is well-served.
Time to do some digging, methinks..
It may be a ludicrous pipe-dream, but you never know.

Had a mate who opened a second hand bookshop a few years back, a life's ambition. Had he had bigger floor space, had he been in his 20s, had he been able to sleep under the counter and had he been able to enjoy interacting with the ethereal EngLit students (female) who floated through, then it would have been fine. Sadly he was around 40, had three kids and half a mortgage to pay so it simply didn't generate enough money to be worthwhile. I'd guesstimate that a record shop would be roughly the same. Or even worse since digital music is already far more established than digital books...

PS: he also had a coffee shop in the basement

I'm acquainted with the owners of two local record stores, situated in different towns.

The first specialises in vinyl, mainly second-hand, but with some new items. They've been trading for about a year at their current location, but were based in a smaller town a few miles away before that. The shop also deals in old record players and jukeboxes.

The other is a classical specialist dealer, situated in a fairly well-to-do town with an active classical music live scene. The shop also stocks jazz and other non-mainstream music, as well as a good deal of second-hand material. The owner took over from the previous one when he retired about a year ago. Since HMV has run down it's classical departments locally, and Borders has shut for good, he gets quite a lot of trade from nearby larger cities, as they lack similar stores. It seems that some avid customers with a perchance for ordering large amounts of material keep him going.

then I would

No. Nonono. NO! "No" does not fully express the level of negativity required.

that if HMV goes the way it's looking, and presumably taking Fopp with it, i believe Nottingham wouldn't have a record shop, at least one that was selling new product. If true that would be mad, and i'm sure it wouldn't be the only city like that.

Grant I think the way to go would be to open something like Second Layer or Volcanic Tongue in the Manchester way, think it would do ok, with empahsis on mail order, and of course a little coffee shop in the corner

It's nice to know that there's always people with good, sound advice to be passed on.
I understand it's a VERY tricky thing to undertake and the odds are not good, but you know, you get one life to live etc.etc.

A few years ago I was a student in Manchester (I still live there), I always thought a record shop could do ok in Fallowfield where the students live.

....he had a bunch of surplus CDs (free cover mounts from magazines) which he was clearing out a while back and took them in to offer to his classes. He might as well have been offering spangles or wax cylinders. It seems the only people who relate in any way to CDs/physical product is people on this blog, alas.

I've resigned myself to the fact that in 5 years time (maybe sooner) the chance for me to browse record shops on my afternoons off will be gone. I live in Birmingham and have seen several good shops close over the last decade. We're now left with Swordfish which is a shadow of what it used to be, and the Diskery which is very niche surely too far out of the centre to pass any passing trade. Interestingly, we used to have Reddingtons Rare Records, but they switched to mail order only because it just wasn't worth the expense of keeping a store any longer.

Head in Leamington is excellent and a short train ride away. Bristol is my favourite city for record shopping - Head, Fopp and Rise. If you're serious about doing this, it might be worth finding out how those shops all manage to co-exist.

Whilst wishing you the very best of luck...I really wouldn't. The High Street - and even the side streets - are shafted and the simple cost of renting/council tax would probably have you sweating Mon-Thurs before you made a penny. Stock is also tricky - people now have a reasonable idea of what their collections are worth and traditional hunting grounds like car boots or even the US are now slim pickings. It might be worth giving record fairs a go if you have an "urge" - again not what they were but if you price stuff reasonably you'll turn over a few hundred quid...again e-bay dealers will try and scalp you but it's generally an amenable social occasion once they bugger off.

I've been doing them for many years on and off - plus had a shop for four years (very part time...I had a full time job - but used to work the Saturdays) and travelled reasonably frequently to the US for stuff. It's all changing - the rare stuff goes for increasingly silly money and you can always sell good stuff cheap but there are lots and lots of unsold records out there with prices that will never find a buyer. Popped into an old haunt at the weekend - Record Collector in Sheffield - it's still a great record shop, but the vinyl side looks very tired with no one in while I browsed the racks and the stock was pretty much the same as last time I was there just after Xmas. I still buy lots of stuff - mainly CDs...they're so cheap! - and then the stuff I don't want I box up for the fairs and knock out for a couple of quid. Anything vinyl-wise that looks interesting I check out on popsike and price accordingly (usually half to two thirds the middle price) and some happy grubby man will buy it and make a tenner or so when he sticks it on e-bay.

I never really do the sums - but probably over the year my music habit probably breaks even...plus you enjoy the buying/selling - and find some interesting stuff along the way!

When I first came to Leeds 20 years ago, we had an abundance of record shops. Sadly only 2 remain but I recommend both wholeheartedly. Relic Records is a fantastic secondhand shop that deals in both Cds and vinyl and is run by the three musketeers - the Southern Softie Ian, not-so-fresh from Croyden market, John who Jack Black based his highly sexed-up character on in High Fidelity and loveable mop-top and ex-mod Steve. These guys know their chops and an afternoon in their company is always a monkberry moon delight.

Jumbo Records is an independent shop dealing in every music genre known to mankind. I recently purchased a dozen or so CDs from them based on their assistant's recommendations without any prior knowledge of the artists. Suffice to say I now love Deerhoof, Ducktails and Of Montreal.

'No one wants those Millie Jackson LPs'. Sorry, you're wrong. There are still a couple I'm missing. I also miss Nottingham's 'Selectadisc' which one occupied three shops on Market St but closed down two years ago.

in North Carolina. http://www.wefeedyourhead.net/1/
He had a falling out, but that was a personality clash and he won the case. But, that's no matter.
They have four shops in cities/towns with university populations. They sell second hand text books/ key course texts/ CDs/ DVDs/ box sets and second hand magazines.
They don't pay much, so staff costs are low and the premises are basic.
However, Tony, says they are profitable and the shops are vibrant places where plenty of stock gets traded and people hang out.
If you want to talk to him, or his girlfriend who still works there, give me a shout, Grant.
There is nothing like this in Liverpool still.
I think diversity of music/ books/ etc is a must.