Entertainment For Lively Minds
Word Podcast 158: Is rock dead? And if so, does that mean Mark has to rearrange his records?
Posted by The Word on 14 January 2011 - 5:55pm.
In which Mark Ellen, David Hepworth and Fraser Lewry chew on the big topics de jour: is rock dead? And did the 80s kill proper music? Plus, David Hepworth comes up with a list of great records made in that unjustly maligned decade. Warning: contains an unexpected intrusion and a controversial opinion about Morrissey.
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I used to refer to the 1980s as The Devil's Decade...
but I no longer do so, as I gradually came to accept that there was some great music made in those years.
Here are ten great records:
1. Peter Gabriel - Peter Gabriel (1980)
2. Talking Heads - Remain in Light (1980)
3. Rush - Moving Pictures (1981)
4. The Smiths - Strangeways Here We Come (1987)
5. The Pretenders - The Pretenders (1980)
6. Motörhead - No Sleep 'Til Hammersmith (1981)
7. Jeff Beck - There and Back (1980)
8. AC/DC - Back in Black (1980)
9. Pete Townshend - Empty Glass (1980)
10. Van Halen - 1984 (Err... 1984)
To which I would add
Talk Talk - Spirit of Eden
Japan - Tin Drum
Kate Bush - Hounds of Love
Elvis Costello - (You choose)
XTC - Skylarking
Over Here! Over Here!
1 Welcome To The Pleasuredome FGTH
2 Floodland Sisters of Mercy
3 Rio Durren Durren
4 Graceland Paul Simon
5. St Julian Julian Cope
a couple more for consideration
Misty in Roots - Wise and Foolish
Siouxsie and the Banshees - Juju
Siouxsie and the Banshees - A Kiss in the Dreamhouse
Siouxsie and the Banshees - Tinderbox
Here's 10 more
1) U2 - The Joshua Tree
2) The Smiths - The Queen is Dead
3) Marillion - Misplaced Childhood
4) Tom Petty - Full Moon Fever
5) Guns'n'Roses - Appetite for Destruction
6) ZZ Top - Eliminator
7) Springsteen - Born in the USA
8) Aerosmith - Permanent Vacation
9) The Mission - Children
10)Master of Puppets - Metallica
Haircut 100 "Pelican West"
ABC "Lexicon Of Love"
Human League " Dare"
The Associates "Sulk"
Lloyd Cole "Rattlesnakes"
Aztec Camera " High Land High Rain"
Pelican west
Excellent call
I'm now having an
I'm now having an existential moment of self doubt as to whether Dave is also actually me inna Fight Club stylee.
That lot is worth 3 hours (max) of anyones listening time.
Was listening to
Rattlesnakes and Dare this week. I hadn't heard either for a long time. They both sounded better than ever.
Four more I do play quite regularly decades on:
You Can't Hide Your Love Forever - Orange Juice
Workers' Playtime - Billy Bragg
Treasure - Cocteau Twins
Computer World - Kraftwerk
Yes yes
Isn't 'Computer Love' just the most blissful piece of electronic music yet devised?
I adore Computer Love.
It's actually perfect.
Cocteau Twins
I have been very surprised to discover that of all the music of the 80s, what has lasted for me is the Cocteau Twins (and Microdisney). I play them almost as much as I did at the time (monthly).
Absolutely with you on the Cocteaus
Best band ever, in my book, the exception thoroughly proving the rule that the 80s was less than fantastic (relatively speaking, of course).
I think I listen to the Cocteaus now more than ever
And I am beginning to think that The Moon and the Melodies is the best CT album of all.
It is just incredible and I probably listen to it once a week on average, often in darkness through headphones!
But then again, what about Blue Bell Knoll, Heaven or Las Vegas or Head Over Heels?
Can't go wrong.
Electronica
Computer World is great but I'll beat the sad drum for this album, which is (as far as I'm concerned) one of the great lost albums of the 80's
Some interesting personnel on there: Laurie Anderson, Marcus Miller, Adrian Belew. Recorded in New York, so full of the early 80's NY vibe in many ways. And it probably was the best use of his avant garde background, because the sampling went back to his Musique Concrète roots. I think it's the best thing he ever did, but hardly anyone in the UK bought it at the time.
Agree about him being unfairly overlooked
When you listen to the 1970s JMJ stuff, you forget the context in which it was released. There was very little around that sounded anything like it, yet he is rarely mentioned as a pioneering influence. Maybe he is seen as a little like a synth Clayderman these days. In the late 70s, he could have shared a bill with Kraftwerk and no-one would have raised an eyebrow.
Too Rye Aye-Dexys
Love that album, the 80's weren't that bad for music were they ?
was Oh Mercy by Dylan in the 80's ?
Yeah 1989
All the Dexy's albums (yes, including DLMD)
Most of Costello's (GCW great songs, shit album) but Blood & Chocolate looms large
Madness - Rise and Fall
Dare
Kate Bush - Hounds Of Love
Penthouse & Pavements\The Luxury Gap
PSB- Actually \ Introspective
XTC - Skylarking is the pinnacle of other superb records
Many a Tom Waits LP
Correct Use Of Soap
Appetite For Destruction
Master Of Puppets
Maiden - probably NOTB but Piece Of Mind, Killers etc
RE bloody M FFS
There is a lot of old shit like any decade but anything else is snobbery. Which is why I ignored the original thread
WTF?
D*S*MD : - ).
1971 - a magic year indeed!
I find the 1970s a special decade musically, which is why I've looked upon the 1980s as comparatively well below par (and also because I saw my beloved prog rock fade from the mainstream). Looking at some of the 80s albums listed by the Massive, it's clear that there was indeed a lot of good rock around, including some decent prog. I still don't agree that rock is now dead. Not while Lemmy's still hammering away, Uriah Heep are still around and delivering, and with Rush still touring.
For a moment
I read that as
to which I was strongly inclined to reply that a man must have a hobby.
[gets coat, hurriedly]
Two more from the 80s
The Blue Nile - A Walk Across The Rooftops
The Blue Nile - Hats
This wheel's on fire
This is the Byrds in 1970 at Felt Forum, New York---which is the version you were talking about, Mark ? Would love to know:
Ritual
One other thing, the French are the only people I know of with the phrase "l'art de vie" as part of the language [though I'd love to be corrected].
I wish I still had the French hi-fi mag which rhapsodised about how CDs were ok for "l'usage quotidien" but you needed LPs to enjoy at your seaside hideaway ... presumably with a chilled Sancerre and a special ami(e).
Felt - Forever Breathes A Lonely Word
And everything by Orange Juice...
Many great 80s lps
Many artists released outstanding lps in the 80s:
Tom Waits
Marianne Faithfull
REM
Lets Active
Guadalcanal Diary
The Fall
Echo & B
Richard Thompson
Steel Pulse
LKJ
Pogues
Grace Jones
Magazine
early Simple Minds (pre-'Waterfront')
Talking Heads..and countless more.
The idea of a 'decade' killing music is a subjective concept. I cannot abide almost anything 'popular' for nearly the past 20 years, but I know that doesn't mean there is no good new music. I just don't have the time to hunt it down anymore.
Formative years
I have an inpenetrable nostalgia for the defining songs of my youth, teens and early twenties, I can't help it. They paint pictures, place me in situations; I do like other stuff too, though...! Here are a few bands and albums that were, and still are, important to me:
The Cure - Head on the door
JAMC - Automatic
The Pixes - Surfer Rosa
Loop
Echo and the Bunnymen - Ocean Rain
My Bloody Valentine - Isn't Anything
The Wonder Stuff - The Eight Legged Groove Machine
American Music Club - United Kingdon
Sisters of Mercy - First and last and always
Danse Society - Heaven is Waiting
Girls at our Best
Bauhaus
David Bowie - Scary Monsters
Siouxsie and the Banshees - Ju-ju
Was going through some Bowie footage
today and looking at the young whippersnappers intoducing old clips on, hey, The Test, thought 'the worst thing about the 80's wasn't the music, it was the fashion'
Paul McCartney
The best Mark E Smith impression he could muster
Cripes
Where did you get that from? And I'm no oil painting but I'm not as frightening as Mark E. Smith.
You were introducing
Bowie doing 'Oh You Pretty Things' on the Whistle Test. It was on a bootleg DVD I have of Bowie clips. And the MES comparison is just the way you're looking at the camera, I assure you
But more relevant to the subject of when the Boss went big - here's how Mr H spent his summer vacation
Thanks Boss
Thanks for posting that; better quality than my old VHS copy.
But I really should see if I can dig out, digitise and upload Messrs. Ellen and Hepworth on OGWT being the first to announce Bruce's upcoming 1985 tour.
Alan Whicker..
..eat your heart out.
My Eighties...
1) It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back - Public Enemy
2) Three Feet High And Rising - De La Soul
3) Doolittle - The Pixies
4) The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses
5) The Queen Is Dead - The Smiths
6) Sign O The Times - Prince
7) Hounds Of Love - Kate Bush
8) Reign In Blood - Slayer
9) Technique - New Order
10) Computer Love - Kraftwerk
It's in no real order though...
And I forgot about...
... If I Should Fall From Grace With God by The Pogues
Seeing as we're listing...
..here's ten amazing Byrds songs wot they wrote themselves:
1 Feel A Whole Lot Better (Gene)
2. So You Want To Be A Rock And Roll Star (Roger/Chris)
3. Lady Friend (Cros)
4. She Don't Care About Time (Gene)
5. Eight Miles High (Gene/Roger)
6. The Girl Who Had No Name (Chris)
7. Everyone's been Burned (Cros)
8. Chestnut Mare (Roger)
9. Triad (Cros)
10. Here Without You (Gene)
If I knew how to Spotify this list I would, but believe me, there was a lot more to them than covers.
Good list, adding 5 more
Have you Seen her Face? (Chris)
The World turns around Her (Gene)
Set You Free This Time (Gene)
I Knew I'd Want You (Gene)
Draft Morning (Cros, Chris, Roger)
And, Mr Ellen, Crosby sang like an angel (and still does). McGuinn has a thin, weedy voice however.
Any chance of a feature on Gene Clark's superb (and mainly overlooked) solo career ?
Dancing In the Dark calculated? - nah
next you'll be suggesting he practised for the video in his spare room
yeah, say what you like
...but dancing in the dark was our song and me and mr pogs are still together so it must have had something going for it...
Great podcast, but
I disagree with David's positing that there was no white rock root to hop hop. There was a great kinship between some rap acts and metal acts - Public Enemy and Anthrax being one and Run DMC and Aerosmith came about because the former were already using rock samples.
Much of the Bomb Squad armoury is suffused with metal and rock samples.
I haven't heard the podcast...
... But Heppo. If you think there wasn't a rock route to hip hop then you have forgotten Run DMC and Aerosmith and this tune, my own personal route to hip hop...
Part of a vanguard
that included Faith No More, early Sugar Ray (e.g Lemonade and Brownies) and others. See also later stuff like the Judgement Night soundtrack (see IMDB entry)
And The Beastie Boys
used "Back In Black" on "No Sleep Til Brooklyn" in 86.
Norman Watt-Roy
Wonder if Mark Ellen spotted Norman playing in this earlier band (and also Glencoe) while sitting at the feet of Wishbone Ash and Quintessence, sipping his lukewarm Kestrel lager.
The Greatest Show on Earth - Real Cool World
Great to hear Norman get a mention in the podcast!
I'll be with the masses at Wilco's gig on 1 Feb.
I hadn't heard the 'Greatest Show On Earth' track before - it sounds quite good (from the 1970s I take it).
Genuine laugh out loud moment
was DH's succinct dismissal of petulant ponce Morrissey - "Oh, he's a tosser"
Just for Fraser, here's NWOBHM giants Praying Mantis - form an orderly queue, ladies...
And if anybody has a spare spot on the back of their denim jacket...
I believe
I may have that iron on patch in the loft, unused, along with some truly terrible singles
1971
First year at University at ridiculously young age of 17
Too much hair, muttonchops, acne hanging around
Terrified, positively PETRIFIED of girls
Mustard coloured skivvy, bell-bottoms, moccasins with no socks
Mud Slide Slim, After The Goldrush, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Led Zep 111, Deja Vu, etc etc made life liveable.
some other genres
sunny ade
thomas mapfumo
youssou ndour
salif keita
baobab
rail band
late franco
late rochereau
maroon commandoes
lot of excellent african stuff in early eighties
nick cave hit his stride with the bad seeds
paul kelly ditto
Manu Dibango?
Also lots of great Reggae - not a genre which gets much attention on this blog - Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, Gregory Isaacs, Grace Jones.
Meanwhile...
Frank Zappa - Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar 1981
Frank Zappa - You Are What You Is 1981
Frank Zappa - Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch 1982
Frank Zappa - The Man from Utopia 1983
Frank Zappa - Them or Us 1984
Frank Zappa - Thing-Fish 1984
Frank Zappa - Frank Zappa Meets the Mothers of Prevention 1985
Frank Zappa - Jazz from Hell 1986
Frank Zappa - Guitar 1988
not forgetting
FZ for president
I've a theory about the 80s
which is that it was given a boost at the start by the late 70s, which it proceeded to squander. There was a terrific amount of terrific music (and very varied too) in the years 1978-82, at least going by the singles charts, and I'm struck by how much of the great 80s albums people have mentioned above are from the early part of the decade.
It's just that, by the time you get to (say) 1985 there seems a shift in balance away from great and interesting stuff, weighted more towards crappy big hair nonsense. I'm not saying there weren't any great albums from every year, but relatively speaking I think it definitely declined as it went on.
Oh, and didn't Praying Mantis use to be in the Guinness Book of Records for being the loudest band in the world? It's the only thing (I think) I know about them.
1980
I'm with you there. For me 1980 is possibly the best year of the '80s. Then again 1987 is interesting.
I agree with the theory put forward in the podcast that the best of an art form comes as it is being developed to the point where new territory opens up and possibilties are realised for the first time. You see that with art as Braque and Picasso invent cubism or in the renaissance as perspective is fully explored followed by a period where that style loses steam - known as mannerist, though there are still treasures and masterpieces to be found even then, some of which are more interesting simply through being less familiar. This might seem a bit high falutin' when discussing pop but the principle's the same.
So late 70's we get new wave and punk then indie labels then 2 Tone, then synth bands etc. This fades after the early 80's then there's a further late 80's interesting period as hip hop and dance come along and combine with synth bands and indie rock to create another wave of development. I suppose it seems snobby to prefer the culty stuff but perhaps it's just that when it goes mainstream those of us that've followed those acts have lost interest and gone on to pastures new, whereas to those who are less bothered about all this culty underground milarky, who are introduced to this music through the charts alone, it's all fresh and exciting. Of course, you just like what you like to and I'm thinking about this too much and taking it all too seriously, but I'm clearly not alone. It is an art form though so why shouldn't we? But it's also entertainment and showbiz so there's the rub I guess. It seems I'm going over ground recently covered rather excessively so I shall stop. Just clarifying my thoughts out loud really.
It is strange..
..that people tend to remember the 60s and 70s for all the great stuff, conveniently forgetting stuff like "Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep", The Archies,Ken Dodd and The Wombles, yet continue to define the 80s by is rubbish (of which there was a lot..)
Was the rubbish of the 80s worse than its earlier counterpart?
P.S. Mark..Wishbone Ash were (are) a fucking great English rock band.
Ken Dodd & Englebert
notwithstanding, the mid/late 60s produced countless great records which still sound great today. You don't have to look very far to see that.
And while it's true there were also some fine records in the 80s, it was hardly an embarrassment of riches by comparison.
No one is denying..
..the great music of the 60s and 70s.
It's just that the reams of shit the era also produced seem to have been conveniently forgotten.
Pretentious theory moment (masive generalisations apply):
Perhaps the eighties are the mirror image of the sixties? Plenty of shite was produced in the sixties, but we see it as a brilliant wonderful time, ignoring the dross. Plenty of great stuff was produced in the eighties, but we remember it as a time of anti-music. Are we reflecting the views of the baby boomers - great as you're growing up, no so much hope and possibility as you get to adulthood..?
Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep and Sugar Sugar
are the tits.
There are no pop songs as good as either of those on any of DH's class of 1971.
Geez..
..it must be great round yours on a Sat,dy night.
It's fine. I get more action than if I was
crying myself to sleep huddled 'round a bong listening to those whiney whiteboys that DH rates.
They didn't have Facebook to mop up the social inadequates in 1971, they had singer-songwriters instead.
So then
Middle Of the Road vs Wishbone Ash.....
Blowin' Free?
Re: Listening to a vinyl album all the way through
Seems it's become a communal pass-time not far from the venerable Mixmag fashion cupboard:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143
Heard about this on Radio 4
Probably worth a separate thread - I was wondering which albums you might not want to listen to all the way through.
Captain Beefheart's 'Trout Mask Replica' is at the top of my list!
Albums I usually listen to all the way through include:
Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd)
Music In a Doll's House (Family)
Kind of Blue (Miles Davis)
Led Zeppelin I
Hot August Night (Neil Diamond)
Tarkus (ELP)
Trilogy (ELP)
Argus (Wishbone Ash)
More on 1971
I don't think anyone else has mentioned that that year also saw the LP debuts of David Crosby and Judee Sill, both excellent too.
And in FOPP (Glasgow) today I see they have a display with albums from 1971, 1981 and 1991 on it - the 1971 one definitely looks best.
FOPP
In Manchester even have a display of Prog Rock CDs FFS!
This is all very well,
but could anyone tell me why this podcast (and only this podcast; the others are fine) will not download from iTunes? The download rate is really slow and it eventually just times out.
Sorry to put a downer on a jolly thread but I do feel very left out at the moment *cue violins and sound of teeth gnashing*
Perhaps try another time of day?
I know nothing about the technology involved so this could be a completely wrong steer, but I gave up trying to download on Sunday night when iTunes told me that it would take around 80 minutes.
I downloaded it successfully yesterday morning (though it did still take about 20 minutes).
as an old grump,
I'd rather have albums from 1967 (or 1968) than all the Cds from the whole of the '80s.
I gave up on Pop/Rock in the '80s & started listening seriously to what is known as "World Music". There I discovered gems that still make me smile or dance (no mean feat).
Some top stuff in the 80's
Billy Bragg - Talking with the taxman about poetry/Brewing up with.../Workers playtime
Furniture - The Wrong People
Propaganda - A Secret Wish
Half Man Half Biscuit - Back In the DHSS
plenty more too.
For years I thought I liked Billy Bragg
You know, hard-hitting topical songs, right-on top geezer, good leftie, Red Wedge etc etc
Then I bought his 3CD set Must I Paint You a Picture.
Towards the end of the first disc I had to take it off. His voice grated so much I couldn't stand it any more.
Conclusion: a 3CD box set is not the best way to hear an artist like Billy Bragg. He's the kind of performer the EP was invented for.
He hasn't bettered
Lifes a riot ......... IMHO. Still one of my favourite albums. Not sure I could do the whole box set though.
Dead rock and the 80s
I’d say we’re in a pre-explosion slump as with the mid-70s and late-90s. There’s probably a new underground music scene bubbling away under our feet as we speak that’ll emerge and spew forth the next big, cool and groovy things. I’m excited just thinking about it.
I’ve been examining the 80s to find good alternative releases and haven’t found it particularly hard. If you look at bands like Guided By Voices, Sonic Youth, The Fall, Sebadoh, The Stone Roses, Jesus & Mary Chain, REM, Nirvana, Guns N Roses, Pixies, all of them released great edgy non-80s-sounding albums in the 80s, but they seem to be all forgotten when the decade is called in to explain itself.
Even though the fashions were pretty dire I’d put forward the theory that the 80s was the last unique and truly original decade. Everything since has been fairly derivative of everything else that came before it (hell, if you listen to the B-52s and then the first Arctic Monkeys album it’s clear the apple hasn’t fallen very far from the tree). I sometimes watch footage of Live Aid and think “we did it… we achieved everything by the end of that decade”. Glorious.
Again, just a theory, but one I prefer to just drawing a line through those busy years and saying they were wasted.
Sleevenotes - I love 'em
Moan: can anyone read the pink sleevenotes on John Grant's Queen of Denmark album. I have even used a magnifying glass - no joy.