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Women aren’t as stupid about music as men are

Richard Lowe's picture

Simon Mayo is on Radio 2. He’s just played Hall & Oates. My wife said “oh, they’re great Hall & Oates. It’s the ’80s. Those records always sound worse than they are.” Then Lying Eyes by The Eagles came on on. “It’s stupid to hate The Eagles” she said.
It is indeed stupid to hate Lying Eyes by The Eagles. And I’m beginning to think it’s stupid to read lots of tortuous prose about music from blokes, when women kind of just get it.

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It is, indeed, stupid to hate Lying Eyes by the Eagles...

...because it's a well written, well played and well produced song played by a group of capable professional musicians.

I can see why some people might not particularly like it - for all sorts of different reasons - but I can't see why anyone would actively *hate* it.

The same is, of course, true of Hall & Oates as discussed extensively here not so long ago.

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stimpy | 15 February 2009 - 7:02pm

The opportunity to continue

The opportunity to continue hating the Eagles - and especially Lying Eyes - is one of the main things that gets me out of bed in the morning. Absolutely anything by Queen runs a very, very close second.

Its astonishing the sort of soppy drivel women can stomach. For example, it turns out that my wife, who does the ironing to the first Sugar album also likes Mandy by Barry Manilow. Mandy for f**ksake!! I may have to divorce her.

The idea that women "get it" is frankly laughable. Now grow a pair and lets have some tortuous prose from you about how much you like some obscure Beatles track or other, and be quick about it or the entire premise upon which The Word is predicated is in danger of crumbling into an untidy heap in the middle of the internet. And then where will you be? Sipping white wine spritzer and singing along to Mamma Mia with your wife and her twenty closet friends. Probably.

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Andy Lynes | 15 February 2009 - 7:11pm

Mamma Mia *is* rather camp, isn't it?

Or is it party time in Narnia?

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epigone | 15 February 2009 - 7:14pm

Closest.

Closest.

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Andy Lynes | 16 February 2009 - 1:49am

I quite like “soppy drivel”

Not “white wine spritzer” though. That’s for big girls.

“Twenty closet friends”. Gorblimey. Not sure I’m man enough.

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Richard Lowe | 15 February 2009 - 8:37pm

Careful, Andy......

Richard has a pair and will be a staunch advocate of any Beatles track you can find. Unfortunately, some of the curmudgeons see the Fabs as anaethema enough to fear the paired organs you exhort to be as chest borne and hence fulfilling of the prophesy. Oh, probably.
(P.S. Richard, none intended, back handed support implied!)

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Retropath2 | 15 February 2009 - 7:20pm

“a pair” of what?

Bit confused by Andy’s tirade.
Just making the point - and obviously it’s a bit of a crass generalisation, but not much less true for that - that women and men respond to music in different ways. Women like what they like. Men like what it’s OK to like.
Thanks for your “back handed support” Retro old fruit. Mmmwaah.

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Richard Lowe | 15 February 2009 - 7:39pm

There is no bad music.

Just music one likes and music one doesn't like. And the chances are that someone else likes the music one doesn't like. Is that clear?

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Handsome.P.Wonderful | 15 February 2009 - 7:54pm

Couldn't have...

...put it better meself, Handsome old fruit

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stimpy | 15 February 2009 - 7:59pm

Jamiroquai

Might be the exception to that rule Handsome.

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Sour Crout | 15 February 2009 - 10:02pm

Hue & Cry, too

All Bad. All of it.

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el hombre malo | 15 February 2009 - 11:31pm

Oh crap.

I bought Labour of Love when it came out.

The 12-inch version.

Looking back on it, the extended remix only made it worse. But at the time I really liked it.

The shame...

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ridski | 17 February 2009 - 11:52pm

have you renounced them and all their works ?

Nobody can in all honesty be proud of every single record they have ever bought. I mean, someone must have bought all those Lighthouse Family CDs, surely ? All those Simply Red CDs ?

But I am sure that you will be happier in your life moving on if you have renounced Hue & Cry and all their works.

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el hombre malo | 18 February 2009 - 12:01am

really?

If you don't want it I'll gladly take it off your hands! I'm shameless! Your tastes may change but the music doesn't and you'll get to a time (eventually) when you come full circle and see some of the merits that made you like it first time round.
Then again eternity is a looooooong time.

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Timmie The Dog | 22 February 2009 - 12:37pm

Good point

Forget what I said above.

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Handsome.P.Wonderful | 16 February 2009 - 9:39am

I'd never really noted anything by them

My memory sort of said forgettable. And then I listened to their version of the Man with a Child in his Eyes, on the spotty covers list. Jeez-uz, what a feckin' travesty. Burn them at the stake, not so much for doing it at all, serious enough, but for all that cod-soul* na na na-ing. Shocking stuff.
*should that be cod sole?

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Retropath2 | 16 February 2009 - 10:18am

'We Built This City' by Starship...

is a great steaming turd of a record, and anyone who says differently is just wrong.

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Patrick Crowther | 15 February 2009 - 11:58pm

Wrongity-Wrong

I think round here we say "Wrongity-Wrong" for wrongness of that magnitude, according to the podcast. Phrase originated by Mr Valparaiso, I think.

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el hombre malo | 16 February 2009 - 12:29am

Harumph!!! - No you sir are

Harumph!!! - No you sir are "wrongity-wrong" in the "wrongity-wrongiest" way that it is possible to be in a state of "wrongity-wronginess". "We Built this City" is indeed the nadir of poular music and the standard by of crapness by which all crap records since can be judged.

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Gramsci | 16 February 2009 - 10:53am

please allow me to clarify

I agree wholeheartedly that "We Built This City" is horrendous, down there with Hue & Cry's oeuvre.

My point was that someone who disagrees with this point is not simply "wrong", but is in fact WRONGITY-WRONG.

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el hombre malo | 16 February 2009 - 11:02am

I apologise for any and

I apologise for any and every misunderstanding

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Gramsci | 16 February 2009 - 1:15pm

none taken

and together, we shall storm the barricades, shouting "DOWN WITH THIS KIND OF THING"

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el hombre malo | 16 February 2009 - 1:51pm

That is my Favourite Slogan Ever

or to quote Frs Ted & Dougal more exactly
"Down with That sort of Thing - Mind how you go!"

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Gramsci | 16 February 2009 - 1:55pm

A pedant writes...

"Mind how you go"?

Surely it was "Careful now"?

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Paul Waring | 16 February 2009 - 2:06pm

You're correct Mr Waring - it was "careful now"

Perhaps Gramsci is too busy scritti politti'ing to relay - verbatim -obscure Irish sitcom dialogue - or sign writing even.

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cathtrish | 16 February 2009 - 2:50pm

Whilst agreeing entirely with the sentiment expressed...

....the existence of the "song" is not completely without merit.

Without it, would HMHB ever have come up with "We Built This Village on a Trad. Arr. Tune"?

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Paul Waring | 16 February 2009 - 1:26pm

I quite like it actually

A few drinks, a grown-ups disco in the local village hall and it doesn't sound too bad.

And if Homer Simpson likes it, that's good enough for me.

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Handsome.P.Wonderful | 16 February 2009 - 2:02pm

Tongue in cheek, Andy?

I think it was the 'tortuous prose' bit that gave it away, but I suppose everyone reads everything differently.
Mind you, if you're going to say "It's stupid to hate The Eagles" that sort of circularly ends up at Mr. Wonderful's point. As it happens, my wife hates The Eagles.
I must confess, though, to being mildly confused about the concept of records that "...sound worse than they are". And I speak as fan of Big Bam Boom.

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skirky | 15 February 2009 - 9:26pm

My wife’s one of those people

who’s prone to malapropism. What she meant was that ‘80s production “values” disguised how good Hall & Oates’ songs really were. I’d just been reading - and enjoying - the reviews of Morrisey, U2 and Bruce Springsteen in the new Word. It struck me that women would be less inclined to either write or read stuff like that. I think any demographic study of music magazines would bear this out. I was just making an observation.

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Richard Lowe | 15 February 2009 - 9:59pm

Deadly serious about the

Deadly serious about the Eagles, Queen and Manilow, but tongue firmly in cheek for the rest.

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Andy Lynes | 15 February 2009 - 10:19pm

The truth is

women are less full of shit than men. Or rather they are full of shit in different ways.

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Cookieboy | 15 February 2009 - 10:21pm
Leedsboy | 15 February 2009 - 11:00pm

Blimey

I'm sure you all mean very well, but as a woman I reserve the right to be just as full of shit as any man. And I rather like to think that I am.

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gollywollypogs | 16 February 2009 - 12:21am

In my experience....

.....women do need to take more laxatives.
Discuss.

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Retropath2 | 16 February 2009 - 9:12am

You'd certainly get that impression from TV advertising

But here in the Gollywollypogs household we're unfamiliar with that 'bloated feeling'....

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gollywollypogs | 17 February 2009 - 12:24am

Gotta agree with Gollypollywogs!

Like that you guys are admitting just how full of bollocks you all are (said without rallying Germaine Greer). But us gals have been full of it too... Ours & yours aswell, so doesn't that make us more full of it? Hmm....

Anyway in reference to original blog. May I say The Eagles make me cringe... I got a 'Greatest Hits' CD off my sister for a birthday one year & have never played it. It's not that I don't think they have merit as musicians or songwriters, it's that it's all too schmaltzy for my tastes.

Not just them... Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams, either Manilow, Wet Wet Wet, Ooh Craig David! They come on & I feel like downing a bottle of Southern Comfort!

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vylisaxj220 | 16 February 2009 - 2:13pm

It's only stupid...

...to hate Lyin' Eyes by The Eagles because it's waste of energy, and hatred is not a good thing. Doesn't stop it being awful.

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Lucas Hare | 16 February 2009 - 8:05am

Undeniable if uncomfortable truths

1. "Lying Eyes", "Desperado" and - yes, indeed - "Hotel California" are songs that in every measurable respect are superior to anything ever released by Robert, Mark E. or T.V. Smith.

2. While wife and children are in the kitchen, adjust your apron-cape and play them three consecutive tracks from the Word Spotify playlist, starting anywhere at all. Then play Boston's "More Than A Feeling" and ask them, "Happy now?" Unless the children have already transmogrified into emo-stricken shoe-starers, the answer will be a resounding, unanimous yes.

3. Music that is calculated, processed and marketed to make as many people as possible feel good is just as valid a proposition as any confectionery product designed to have a similar result. Conclusion: if you like Milky Ways (see recent thread), you're in no position to bitch about "Mandy".

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Archie Valparaiso | 16 February 2009 - 9:01am

1. I would swop the entire

1. I would swop the entire Eagles back catalogue for this live rendition of Mountain Energei by The Fall


2. Boston are not the Eagles

3. Music is not chocolate

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Andy Lynes | 16 February 2009 - 11:56am

Ah, The Fall!

The only band in pop history to have set the melody bar lower than that of a "mind the gap" announcement.

I'm assuming that, true to form, the bass player was ejected from the band before the song finished (you guessed; I didn't make it to the end) - despite having only three notes to play, yes, he managed to balls one of them up.

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Archie Valparaiso | 16 February 2009 - 12:14pm

He had time to change the

He had time to change the entire line up and get re-married before the rousing denouement.

Melody is vastly overated - I'll take rhythm, harmony and tone any day.

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Andy Lynes | 16 February 2009 - 3:04pm

on the contrary

I think melody is under-rated. As a case in point, I don't think that Coldplay have managed to come up with one since Yellow - at least not one that I could hum after the song had finished. Pretty textures though. Radiohead strangely enough have melodies as well, which probably accounts for them being (for want of a better word) better. Wasn't there a tv programme based around whether the some codger with his hair turning white could whistle the tune?

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paulwright | 19 February 2009 - 5:08pm

In response to point 1

While you may be correct, Mr. Valparaiso, I'd like to state for the record to the ladies and gentlemen of the forum that the existence of those very three songs in that order are the three main reasons I joined a goth band; in the vain hopes that my musical output would drown out the horrid memories of not only ever hearing them in their original format, but of seeing their lyrics transcribed on a yellow notepad for my older sister to sing them in a pub covers band I was too young to ever witness live.

Interestingly, I don't hate The Eagles; I merely find them distasteful, in the same way I find warm Advocaat distasteful. Separately, however, I have no problem with them, and will happily watch Don Henley especially, play live on the telly whenever he's on.

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ridski | 18 February 2009 - 12:12am

I have a theory

Men are unable to separate their reactions to the sound of a record from the things that they happen to know about the people who made that sound. Just as George Bernard Shaw said "it is impossible for one Englishman to open his mouth without making another Englishman hate him", it is impossible for one hardcore music fans to express an opinion about music without making another hardcore music fan take the opposite point of view. And what they're usually arguing about is not the record so much as the people who made it and their emotional relationship with those people. Everybody else just thinks, with some justification, I just like the tune.

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David Hepworth | 16 February 2009 - 11:16am

and why would you care about the people ?

*generalisations ahoy!!*

As a related point, us blokes get het up about knowing who all the people involved are, what the bass player is doing now, which band they stole the drummer from, etc, rather than relating simply to the sonic experience.

Some see this as a richer experience. Some don't, because it misses out the joy of hearing a song with fewer filters.

There is also an element of (in Nick Hornby's words) "you are what you like". So if someone of whom you disapprove has made a record that you fail to loathe on first listen, you need to re-calibrate and learn to loathe it quickly.

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el hombre malo | 16 February 2009 - 11:24am

'Everyone else'...

What, like, women?

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David Rothon | 16 February 2009 - 3:00pm

I always liked that Men behaving Badly line ...

"Women aren't like normal people"

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Douglas | 18 February 2009 - 9:15pm

Do you think it's impossible ...

... to be a hardcore music fan AND be able to judge music simply as music? I have to admit I get impatient sometimes with friends, mostly men, who think that music is better if it's difficult, or authentic, or represents the singer's own anguish or whatever. I might be interested in all the above but I mostly judge music with my ears.
However, I am still stupid about music sometimes. I will confess that I have only just discovered that Fairport Convention are wonderful having been so bound up in prejudices around English folk singers, hippy types et al that I had never actually listened to them until the Word video podcast persuaded me I ought to. Thanks for that .
Catie

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gollywollypogs | 17 February 2009 - 12:42am

Goodness Gracious me

I agree with Hepworth.

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ChaosandMorphine | 17 February 2009 - 7:29pm

Hmmm.

In which respect?

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gollywollypogs | 17 February 2009 - 7:38pm

Err,

What he said there, above, like.

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ChaosandMorphine | 19 February 2009 - 12:26am

mmm. but

I think my response showed I partially agreed.

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gollywollypogs | 20 February 2009 - 12:38am

Ah,

My response was not to your comment. It was to Hepworths.
I think that's were the confusion lies.

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ChaosandMorphine | 24 February 2009 - 3:19pm

Or *Where*

even.

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ChaosandMorphine | 24 February 2009 - 3:20pm

Ok Fine

My mistake, I see. Sorry for that!

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gollywollypogs | 24 February 2009 - 10:43pm

If all this is true

the would that make Word magazine a mens publication?

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Leedsboy | 16 February 2009 - 11:26am
Handsome.P.Wonderful | 16 February 2009 - 11:33am

That makes me feel

decidedly uncherished.

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gollywollypogs | 17 February 2009 - 12:42am

I blame Sigmund Freud

Everyone likes to generalise. It's like we are always looking for the quick, magic insight that explains away aspects of human behaviour. Hence the silly profile that Handsome.P.Wonderful linked.

Sigmund Freud invented all kinds of traits that went some way to explain why people feel or do what they do. When those weren't exactly watertight, further sub-traits were invented until we end up with more traits than people.

Although I fit the profile linked more readily than gollywollypogs(due to having dangly bits), I also feel a little put out by it. All Word readers are different and we are really, really complicated. If the magazine genuinely operates thinking that we can all be categorised in a few paragraphs, then that would be a shame.

Having said that I presume the M.O. of the profile is to convince advertisers that the readership of The Word are not a bunch of dribbling, skint thickos. Even taking this into account, I don't think it is necessary or advisable to make the actually-very-cherished female readership feel sidelined.

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Austin | 20 February 2009 - 1:22am

Dear Austin

I like you a lot! Agree totally with your last para. Which is to say that I accept that Word are chasing an advertisers' perception of a desirable demographic rather than actually (hopefully) dismissive of female readers.

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gollywollypogs | 22 February 2009 - 1:00am

Thanks Catie

:-)

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Austin | 22 February 2009 - 11:01am

Horses for courses

If a magazine's readership has a notable male or female bias - and I think this blog makes it pretty clear that Word certainly does - that's the first thing potential advertisers want to know. And that's why you don't tend to see many ads for Tampax in What SatNav?

I think feeling put out by that text is a bit like getting offended by being called a "white individual" over a police radio - it's a very specialised piece of writing with a specialised target readership: media buyers at advertising agencies. If HPW hadn't linked to it, I doubt many of us would have the slightest interest in where the "Advertisers/Media Pack" link tucked away at the bottom might lead.

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Archie Valparaiso | 22 February 2009 - 11:10am

Point taken

I suppose magazines do profile what a typical reader may look like for advertising purposes but does such a profile hold any more useful information than the actual data (e.g. 89% of subscribers are male)?

By going to the trouble of such a detailed profile, the mag seems to be saying that this is the specific target group they are actively trying to get - rather than passively noting that these are the people happen to like reading about rockular music. If so, I am looking forward to future items on sheds and the roadworks on the A40.

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Austin | 22 February 2009 - 11:45am

"Going to the trouble"

A magazine that doesn't go to the trouble of defining its core readership to attract advertising isn't a magazine; it's a fanzine.

I'm puzzled by the naivety of these reactions to what - for all it's chatty, non-technical prose style - is clearly a very technical piece of writing.

Resenting its failure to take into account the few women who read the magazine seems to suggest that my wife, who on the rare occasions she goes to a McDonald's will invariably order a Happy Meal for herself, should complain about the company's insistence on treating her like a child in its advertising and packaging.

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Archie Valparaiso | 22 February 2009 - 12:32pm

And THAT's exactly where my argument falls down!

I agree wholweheartedly, Archie. I just wish it wasn't so.

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Austin | 22 February 2009 - 10:53pm

You are quite right of course

The only problem is that from the point of view of the reader they are not boasting about (did you count the "He"s?) it still feels rather unpleasant when you read it.
And I suppose I don't personally understand why advertisers would not want my babyboomer cash just because I'm a laydee!
But I'm not burning with resentment - just mildly miffed.

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gollywollypogs | 24 February 2009 - 10:49pm

They must be crap...

...because I don't like the cut of their jib.

I've lost count of the number of times in recent years where I've decided a much-hyped new band must be shite on account of them being young, smug, popular, or whatever... only to hear them by accident six months later and find myself saying "wow, what's this?" as it turns out the girls were right all along.

It's a snob's equivalent of the gag reflex though, and not something you can easily unlearn. The technique that works best for me is to judge the music by its audience: if I think they're decent human beings, then I must be wrong and it's all my fault if I don't "get" whichever hot new sound. If, on the other hand, the fans are mostly grazed-knuckled cloth-eared proles, then I was probably right the first time. It's a flawed strategy but hey! it sure beats being genuinely open-minded. Life's too short.

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Oysterfrond | 20 February 2009 - 2:18am

Mr Hepworth's conjecture has merit.

Just last weekend I ventured into the shabby interior of the rapidly depleting branch of Zavvi in Bristol city centre. Somewhat on the late side for an appointment elsewhere, I assuaged my latent £50 man compulsions by grabbing the first radically marked down CD I didn't already have from the shelf marked 'World', often a reasonable indicator of something interesting, or at least something that the 17 year old Goth sales assistants knew not how to categorise.
I trotted off to my assignation clutching a copy of an album called 'Venus On Earth', a cursory glance at which seemed to indicate that it was by a psychedelic band from Cambodia called 'Dengue Fever'. A vague bell of recognition rang somewhere in the recesses of my recall, I'd read a review in an earlier edition of Word perhaps, but I still returned home later that morning with lazy mental imagery of stooping Cambodian peasants growing rice all week and playing Temptations numbers at weekend dance parties.
The CD delivers, and turns out to be a little belter. Upon reading the eyestrain inducing print on the fold out CD cover, however, I discover that while the female vocalist is Cambodian, the band is made up of session players, and that the whole thing is a concoction of the base root of Amerikan evil that is Los Angeles.
Momentarily, I am disappointed by this sudden knowledge. Then I think to myself, 'Hang on, this is a smashing album, it matters little that it was not forged in the humidity of a backstreet studio in Phnom Penh!'.
The snobbishly male perceived value of having an obscurity, which is hardly likely to have happened while shopping in Zavvi anyway, has happily been replaced by the realisation that I just like the tunes.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 26 February 2009 - 11:49am
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