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Why Britain and Ireland?

Sting Ono's picture

As an ex-pat I've often wondered why it is that the little old British Isles continue to produce the best rock and pop on the planet, with only the USA as (2nd place) rivals and no other country coming close. Italy, where I've lived these past 30 years, is rubbish at it. Why are Britain and Ireland so damn good at it? Any thoughts?

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Good Question

English as a first language?, the fact that English and Irish folk music and ballads are, more or less, responsible for country music, which is one of the main building blocks of pop music in the first place?

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Pat Carty | 10 November 2009 - 4:15pm

Hmm

Many English speaking countries don't seem much cop. And lots, like Italy, have strong musical traditions that don't translate into rock or pop prowess. In both the British Isles and USA the family is a relatively weakened structure and rebellion an attractive outlet. I wonder if that's summat to do with it?

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Sting Ono | 10 November 2009 - 4:24pm

There may very well be a link

between the quality of our musical output and the economic cycle. 60's post-war Britain produced, out of adversity, The Beatles, Stones et al. The early 70's, when we were still struggling, saw Bowie, Roxy, Queen etc emerge. Then punk. Then things got better in the 80's and 90's but the music scene was not (IMHO) as vibrant. Now we're struggling again... Or - to summarise - since we've had more bust than boom, we've produced more music.

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Mark JF | 10 November 2009 - 4:25pm

It is definitely to do with

post-war culture I'd say.
Britain shared a pop cultural connection with the USA as a result of WW2 - the teenagers of the 50s & 60s shared a lot of common ground on either side of the Atlantic.
In terms of pop music Britain has looked resolutely West, rather than towards Europe for a very long time. I guess there is also an obvious cultural connection between the US and Ireland too - hence U2's period where they were in thrall to American roots music.
The powerful influence of American rock n roll on British teenagers in the 50s is well known. Also a certain North Western beat group's success with the genre probably fuelled British confidence...

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Adman | 10 November 2009 - 5:18pm

All of the above

It has to be a combination of factors. It has been said often that the dole queue has been a fertile ground for bands so that helps. Is the US and UK college system different to to others? It certainly appears to be a more relaxed environment than some European countries. The language does make a huge difference, has there ever been a good French language rock song?
The only factor I can think of is quite simply tradition.

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JohnW | 10 November 2009 - 5:20pm

How about the King james bible

and having dark nights and more words than french and shorter words than the germans oh and a habit for pop songs.

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Chris G | 10 November 2009 - 5:23pm

It was written that the host came down from Montreaux

On the shoreline of the lake that was Geneva
In order to make music, timeously...
Francisco, son of Zappa, was in possession of the richest dwelling
But lo it burned
And there was smoke upon the waters,
Fire in the sky
And smoke upon the waters ...

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Glenbervie | 10 November 2009 - 11:37pm

I was thinking more that

the language/imagery of rock and soul music are based (amonst other things) on evangelical non conformist tradition base in the King James bible all this talk of "burning with love", "rising up", "being saved by your touch" etc, I think frank zappa in particular is so poor because he wandered too from this well spring .

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Chris G | 10 November 2009 - 11:43pm

so...

Onan wasn't bonin'
When the Lord done went and told 'im,
To get it up his brother's missus
Altho' his brother was stone dead,
The Lord he's not half vengeful
And his morality's pure dreadful,
He struck poor Onan down
'Cause he spilled his seed instead...

(To the tune of Stalin Wasn't Stallin' by Robert Wyatt)

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Glenbervie | 11 November 2009 - 12:03am

it's the class system innit

and all of the above

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MrRadio | 10 November 2009 - 5:54pm

All of the above.....

but does the weather have something to do with it too? I imagine the young Lennon and McCartney sitting indoors learning to play their instruments or composing on cold, rainy winter afternoons. If we had weather like California would they have been more likely to be at the pool? And our contrasting seasons are very good inducing alternating moods of melancholia and euphoria.

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longtonian | 10 November 2009 - 6:10pm

Don't blame the weather

The problem with your weather idea, which I initially liked is that Texas is just as hot as California, maybe more so and it's a veritable hotbed of rocknrolncountry.

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JohnW | 10 November 2009 - 8:17pm

Is it not...

That rock and pop are the kinds of music we default to producing, whereas other countries have their own forms? I would imagine that the British aren't so hot at Balkan brass as the Serbians, or produce as much decent fado as the Portuguese... and when the Italians do do pop, I'm sure that Eros Ramazzotti sounds as natural to their ears as Girls Aloud do to ours.

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Fraser Lewry | 10 November 2009 - 6:16pm

yeah but

why do only portuguese like fado etc (oh a italian pop is bobbins and we have some not too shabby brass bands in yorkshire)?

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Chris G | 10 November 2009 - 11:18pm

Yorkshire

Yes, but they're not playing Balkan brass, are they? They're playing a completely different genre of music, no? Meanwhile, fado is popular amongst the Portuguese because that's who it's written for, and many Italians would disagree with you about Italian pop - and that's kinda my point: we appear to be judging other people's versions of pop music by our standards.

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Fraser Lewry | 11 November 2009 - 7:49am

Stats, dude!

97.3% of Italian males over 15 hate Italian pop and only listen to Floyd or Queen. The fact that I just made that figure up should not distract you from its plausibility.

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Sting Ono | 11 November 2009 - 8:43am

It's believable

I worked for an Italian digital music company for the best part of ten years - and very generally speaking, the blokes liked Anglo-US rock, the girls Italian pop.

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Fraser Lewry | 11 November 2009 - 8:54am

Slavery and famine -

emmigration to the Americas, forced or otherwise must be a factor. Celtic folk tradition meets African rhythms. Jazz, country, R'n'B, bluegrass etc. - all this music and more grew up in the US but existed largely below the radar of the general populace until the post-war economic recovery, and the invention of the teenager, TV and the generation gap.

Originating in the USA, the rhythms fit the language and the subject matter fit the culture; also at the time the biggest, richest free market in the world. Britain's shared language, economic dependence and fascination with American culture after the war simply speeded up the adoption over here of this new fangled rock'n'roll.

By the time the first wave over there had either run out of steam or been assimilated into the mainstream, Britain's early copycats had been replaced by the HJH and their contemporaries which in turn coincided with the invention of sex and global TV.

The rest of the world looked on and marvelled.

Now of course everything here and in the US is mainstream and rubbish, and all the interesting stuff is 'world'.

Thank you, and goodnight.

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Steven C | 10 November 2009 - 6:18pm

You could easily extend the question

and ask why Britain generally? Why did it have such a big Empire? Why has it produced more than its fair share of scientists, engineers and artists? Why do we continue to punch above our weight internationally?

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matthew | 10 November 2009 - 6:56pm

Right place, right time is all.

Coastline? Check - enough to keep a BBC2 series going for 2 years and counting.

Navy to protect same? Check - biggest when it mattered most and we could grind peasants to pay for it.

Well married royals? Check - better political chicanery than most countries, and proud of it.

Don't really give a toss about religion? Check - bollocks to morals, we'll screw, steal and plunder like maniacs given half the chance.

Utter ruthlessness in pursuit of power? Check - complete bastards. We are the shits amongst shits, and you'd better remember it.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 10 November 2009 - 7:13pm

Think you've just about covered it

With the exception of coal - it's pretty much everywhere under the ground in Britain and meant there was a cheap source of power for the industrial revolution to get going first and fastest.
And now we're trying to tell China they can't use their coal to fuel similar growth. Hmmm

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David Cooper | 10 November 2009 - 7:58pm

Over to you

Schama and Starkey...

That's a very big question. You can trace the roots of English imperialism at least back to Henry Tudor (who was Welsh, of course...)
Science and engineering? Ask the Scots...
Artists? If you are talking about oil on canvas I doubt there is serious British contender on a global scale... There we will always be trumped by our continental cousins.

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Adman | 10 November 2009 - 7:14pm

It's an attitude thing, I think..

trying to put your own spin on things, to be a bit individual and different. Noticeable in pop and rock but also TV, movies, and media in general. Sure, there are lots of me-toos there as well, that's not the point.

Germany, where I live, produces masses upon masses of its own brand of identikit pop and TV. Unlistenable and unwatchable trash. Anything successful gets copied a thousandfold, to the brink of human endurance. This vital spark, call it pop sensibility, is just not something they can do. Kraftwerk et al are once-in-a-decade abberations. Other European countries appear to be not much different: Abba being the great exception.

Music on TV is almost always mimed, recently caught a very grizzled John Miles miming to his 1973ish hit. If a concert is successful, you'll get it next year again, and the year after, and the year after..Nothing is challenging, safety is always first. Some things they do do well, no doubt: cars, midfield generals, liberal lifestyle. So Stingono, you're dead right mate on Britain and Ireland.

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Declan | 10 November 2009 - 7:50pm

Know what you mean

Germany sounds just like Italy. Can get a bit depressing sometimes. Thank Gawd for internet, Amazon, cable TV, multi-lingual DVDs etc, eh?

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Sting Ono | 10 November 2009 - 8:34pm

Hang on - I'm not sure I buy the premise

that Britain/Ireland leads.

If it came to a straight fight. If i was forced to keep either music of British Isles origin or that from America. And discard forever the other - it would be tough to decide. Near impossible.

But - if forced - in some sort of X Factor shoot-out to do so. The acts I'm sending home tonight are ...

the British Isles

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Sheev | 10 November 2009 - 9:14pm

"America, feck yeah"

Ok, America are real contenders, granted. But why noone else? Italians worship GB and USA rock and every kid and his wife is in a band. They're just no good at it.

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Sting Ono | 11 November 2009 - 8:54am

We had Radio 1

I thank you, next question?

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Dave Amitri | 10 November 2009 - 9:58pm

Think of musical development..

Classical music as we know it mostly had its feet under the continental table. The UK only really found its niche with the rise of the music-halls which created the first Popular Music and the rise of tin-pan alley and the sale of sheet music. It was this which created the copyright and intellectual property laws relating to written and recorded music which persist to this day. Whether this was instrumental in Britains pre-eminence in matters popular I can only guess. I suspect that the shared language thing helps. Rock 'n' roll and the rise of the teenager happened in the US and it wasa culture which we could adopt freely. If you were French, you had to put up with Johnny Hallyday. Bloody hell.. if you're French, you still do..

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Lenny Law | 10 November 2009 - 11:29pm

Totally unrelated question...

but what part of Italy do you live in? I'm just interested...

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Patrick Crowther | 11 November 2009 - 8:06am

Puglia

Just outside Bari, down on the back of the heel. But don't call round on a Sunday cos I'll be busy with me housework.

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Sting Ono | 11 November 2009 - 8:58am

A good friend of mine is from Bari...

I went there a couple of years ago.

Have you been to Alberobello? I'd really like to go there but I fear it may now be una trappola per turisti...

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Patrick Crowther | 11 November 2009 - 9:12am

Tis

But it's still unique. My bedroom is a trullo. Where did you live?

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Sting Ono | 11 November 2009 - 9:22am

I was only there for a short time...

and I stayed in a pensione opposite the university. The name I don't remember now. It wasn't The Ritz...

My time in Bari was made memorable by my finding a bunch of keys on the pavement by the port and walking miles to try to hand them over to the Carabinieri. I eventually found an officer asleep in his police car and went "ahem" very loudly to wake him up (What is the Italian for "ahem"?). When I told him about the keys and that I wanted to hand them in he looked at me like I was from Mars and then repeatedly warned me about walking around with my expensive camera visible in that part of Bari... "Sta attento! Sta attento! Questa zona è molto pericolosa!". Apparently I'd wandered into the most dangerous area. I ignored him and carried on taking pictures... nothing happened.

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Patrick Crowther | 11 November 2009 - 6:11pm

Notes from a small island

Certainly in the rock/pop era, the fact that we're a small-ish island with a centralised media helped us become pre-eminent far above our size/population. Any band who had a mate with a van could tour the length & breadth of the whole place endlessly, and with the same TV, radio & newspapers being consumed everywhere, news of the next big thing spread fast.

This couldn't have happened without also English being our mother tongue (helping us better copy the stuff coming over from the USA) and many other historical points made above, but I think it's a big factor, and I don't think it's a coincidence that our dominance vanished almost entirely with the rise of the internet, putting everyone on a more equal footing (corollary: the rise of Scandinavia as a force in pop over the same timescale...)

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Metal Mickey | 11 November 2009 - 8:46am

Bloody weather

Here in the North-West, the weather is one of the key factors. In other parts of Britain, people don't realise just how bad it is - in summer, you can generally count the number of sunny days on the fingers of a clenched fist. And that's the thing - the weather is consistent: a grey, slightly mournful shade that never seems to leave.

Smiths, Bunnymen, Joy Division, Oasis, La's, those Beatle fellas...there's just something about endlessly grey weather that seems to spark creativity.

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peterthecook | 11 November 2009 - 10:10am

the beatles wrote their songs in London/surrey

(and as we know this means oasis did as well) and the Bunnymen's best lp was recorded in paris but I take your point:)

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Chris G | 11 November 2009 - 10:19am

Cheeky!

It's where you're from that counts - The Beatles certainly didn't go to school/have their first pint/first shag in Surrey! Well, perhaps Ringo on that last one.

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peterthecook | 11 November 2009 - 11:08am

But they did write their songs

in the South East (oh and in India) where it's drier oh and learnt to play live in Germany *ducks the scousestorm*

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Chris G | 11 November 2009 - 11:21am

The Beatles are actually a Cockney group

shocker!

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peterthecook | 11 November 2009 - 11:30am

It's worse than that...

The were soft southern middle class suburbanites...

Further to this though, they probably wrote their best stuff face to face in hotel rooms and in the back of transit vans... Locations unknown and various.

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Adman | 11 November 2009 - 1:19pm
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