Entertainment For Lively Minds
Why are The Beatles so revered?
Let me make one thing clear before I start - I'm not deliberately being disingenuous here.
The thing is, I like and know a lot of Beatles songs, I own a couple of albums, I recognise that many of their songs are brilliantly-crafted pop songs.
And yet, and yet... I genuinely don't understand quite why they are so feted.
There were so many other fantastic artists in the 60s, so why did The Beatles end up top of the pile, so to speak?
I write this in the middle of the Radio 2's Beatles Weekend, during which they're playing lots of different Beatles-related shows, in advance of the remastered albums in September.
Obviously, they were done and dusted by the time I was born ('72), so that's one reason why I probably don't get it.
I'm not looking for statistics to back anything up, because that doesn't answer why, just how.
Please - I'm really interested to know what people think.
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Well robram, I think you've come to the right place!
No way could I give you a definite answer here, so forgive me if I'm entirely subjective about it. I was born in 1970. It was all over for the Fabs by then, of course. I grew up with my dad's Beatles albums and my mum's Elvis records. A pretty good start, I guess. The first Beatles record I really loved was Revolver - aged 8, I had literally never heard anything like it. It was like someone had switched on a light in my brain & I never heard music in the same way again.
This is what the Beatles did / do for people. Time and again, person by person, country by country, decade after decade. What is staggering about them is the musical progress they made - no other group before or since has gone through such a remarkable transformation. From jobbing beat-combo (although they were always more than that, of course) to culture-shifting generation-defining entity in a few short years. Listen to 'I Saw Her Standing There' (1963), then listen to 'Come Together' (1969) - is that the same band? Listen to the rock'n'roll covers on the first few albums, then play 'Being for the benefit of Mr Kite' - utterly mind-scrambling.
Now I love the Stones, the Kinks, the Who - they were great bands - fantastic songwriters, but they weren't on the same planet as the Beatles. Could the Beatles sing, play, write, hell yeah - but they did something else as well. There was alchemy at work - a never repeatable mystery that made them incredibly special.
I hope that helps.
Where to start?
They were just better. Simple as that. Every one of their albums contained tracks which would have been countless other bands' best ever single. To give a few early-ish examples - I Saw Her Standing There, The Things We Said Today, Eight Days a Week, In My Life - not one of them released as a single. The Kinks, Who, Small Faces et al, even the Stones, had purple patches but not the sustained quality of the Fabs.
me too
i love revolver and i own the white album(overrated)
but it's as if they invented pop music
same with the rolling stones
Personally
I think you had to be there. How can any of us understand the impact of "She Loves You" only 5 years after "Rock Around The Clock" and 10 years after....what? And of course they had John Lennon. I'm no fan of The Beatles but I get Lennon, McCartney leaves me cold and the other two weren't even the best drummer and guitarist in The Beatles. They were a good band with an astonishing front man and they were in the right place at the right time.
There was never
a frontman.
Couldn't agree more...
...you really DID have to be there. But: Right place at the right time? No, lots more than that. It was me who was in the right place at the right time - 15 when they appeared, 23 when it was all over, and I grew up with them. I can still remember the shock of hearing 'Love Me Do' for the first time on Radio Luxembourg - heard nothing like it before, so defiantly unshowbizzy, just guitars, drums and vocals blasting bluesy stuff out of the tranny speaker. No.1 at the time was 'Lovesick Blues' by Frank Ifield, if you get my drift.... From then on it just built and built - every new single and album was a national event. I can remember when someone triumphantly turned up in the SCR with a copy of Sgt Pepper, and dozens of people just sat down and listened. I'm not interested, and never was, in 'who was best' and all that (unlike my sisters) - they were a band (or group as the term was then), greater than the sum of their parts.
Not bad for a sidekick...
I saw her standing there
All my loving
Can't buy me love
And I love her
Things we said today
Yesterday
Drive my car
You won't see me
We can work it out
Eleanor Rigby
Penny Lane
Paperback Writer (plus peerless bass playing on Rain)
Hello Goodbye
The whole concept of Magical Mystery Tour (well, it was a good idea at the time!)
Lady Madonna
Hey Jude
Back in the USSR
Here, There and Everywhere
The whole concept of Sgt. Pepper
The whole concept of Abbey Road
The whole concept of Let it Be
I could go on.
Fair enough, McCartney's not your cup of tea. I'm not a fan of Cristiano Ronaldo but I feel I would be stretching credibility if I dismissed his talent / influence.
Lennon was undoubtedly the leader in the early years but McCartney always played a key role, and he, rather than Lennon, was the driving force behind many of their more avant-garde adventures, living as he was in 'Swinging' London at the time while Lennon was out in the sticks. This isn't an attempt to diminish Lennon by the way - it's a false argument anyway as both of them admitted they brought out the best in each other.
And to diss George and Ringo is also wrong imo. They were a band in the true sense of the word, and Harrison and Starkey brought personality as well as not inconsiderable talent into the picture.
Point proved
all the dull stuff was down to Macca. The list above moves seemlessly into Mull Of Kintyre, The Frong Song and The Girl is Mine. "I don't beleeeeeve it" urgh (not Victor Meldrew btw).
Really??????
Point proved? Are you honestly, hand on heart, telling us that that long list of McCartney credits is comprised of dull stuff alone?
Leave it Azeem
The boy's clearly a fool.
You'd think
wouldn't you?
Face it Mr Dave.
You just don't *get* The Beatles Band do you?
"Not getting"
a band doesn't make you wrong. People implying that there is something amiss with a person for not agreeing with the majority misses the point that all music is subjective.
I "dont get" Britnet Spears either,is there somerhing wrong with me?
Spoil
sport.
Beep beep, beep beep
yeah!
( Whispers )
You do realize that was one of those 'naff' McCartney tunes don't you?
(Whispers back)
Really? Bugger, I'm such a fool!
Lennon without McCartney
would have been half the artist he turned out to be, in my opinion. And I think Harrison kept them on their songwriting toes more than they would care to admit.
And the old 'Ringo wasn't the best drummer in the world (or even the Beatles...)' motif doesn't wash for me - listen to Ticket To Ride, Day In The Life etc - he was the most melodic drummer I've ever heard. And he was absolutely right for the Beatles - Best may have been a fine drummer but his maybe his four-square style would have made the Fabs sound like any other Mersey-beat combo.
Beatles contrarians
like Paul Morley get on my wick. I understand his frustration with the huge gravitational pull they continue to exert (maybe, as with the late Tony Wilson, there's a touch of Mancunian chippiness to this as well) but to pretend that they were somehow overhyped is just silly.
Best was worst
Listen to the Decca audition. Best was a terrible, terrible drummer. Ringo is admired by his drummer peers. That's good enough for me. And Harrison was a fine guitarist. Listen to the solo on Till There Was You, originally a showtune.
Creative leaps and bounds
For whatever reason, mainly the good songs, The Beatles dominated pop music in the early 60s. Once established, they had free rein to do whatever they liked. They would not have had that luxury if they hadn't been so successful in the first few years.
I think a lot of it was how they came across as people. I still enjoy watching Beatle interviews and press conferences from the 60s. They came across as natural, cocky, a bit sarcastic and often hilarious. They were likeable, and people gravitate towards that kind of thing. I believe this is why Take That were more successful than other boy bands because they had Robbie doing the gags on Going Live - their audience.
You have to have good songs in the first place, but a phenomenon needs more than that. Maybe not much more - but little extras can turn a good band into a global massive thing.
Don't forget that The
Don't forget that The Beatles released their first record a year before the Stones and two years before the Kinks and the Who.
They also had a much longer (and harder) apprenticeship than any of those (also) fantastic groups.
robram, I'm sorry you were born in 1972 (the ideal for everything, not just The Beatles, and probably emigrating in about 1972) would have been 1942, but is it really necessary to ask this question?
They represent the best time to live in this country, the 60's.
Of all the famous groups, pop stars, actors since the mid-50's, I'd say that the act where the question of 'why are they so popular?' is least necessary is The Beatles.
I mean look at Madonna.
Can't sing, not especially attractive (actually pig ugly), dubious 'authorship' of songs, American, about as much of a laugh as a fart in a spacesuit......how has she progressed beyond first base in the entertainment industry?
And whilst they are not perfect, surely there are thousands like her before you get anywhere near questioning The Beatles' popularity or legacy?
A unique definition
of pig-ugly...
Spot on though.
Spot on though.
No, it's not
Madonna isn't "pig ugly" and the moment something like that appears in any post, all other points lose their weight.
I should move on, but if no-one picks you up on that sort of garbage then you will think it's all right.
Sorry, I still think it is
Sorry, I still think it is alright because both within and without she (and she's not alone) has been a cancer on the music industry for three decades.
I take back the 'pig' because I like pigs, but severely 'ugly' it stays.
I'd also add crass and vulgar.
Oh yeah, and extremely, overwhelmingly, without a talented bone in her very boney body.
Of course
it's necessary to ask the question.
Why should I take greatness at face value just because everyone else says so?
My point is that I recognise how great a lot of the songs are, but it's their elevation to deity status that I'm genuinely questioning.
I've listened to quite a lot of today's R2 coverage and I must admit they were very entertaining in interviews.
Some of what's been written on here makes a lot of sense - I suppose sometimes you genuinely get an act and sometimes you don't. As much as I enjoy The Beatles, I don't truly 'get' them, obviously.
Old bloke writes...
By the time i started paying attention to music ("that Slade are quite good") the Beatles were already old hat - and for a young kid in the early '70s you could pretty much take them granted ... their melodic 'adult' records, played often on the radio, were insufficiently exciting for a 11/12 yr old, their poppy early records sounded too happy-clappy (forgive me, i wasn't even quite at secondary school at that point) ... growing up, the Beatles were part of the musical furniture, but it was hard to get a handle on why they were so revered ... until i got into my 30s, had more than 20 years of listening to assorted music behind me, and realised that they went from Love Me Do (before i was born) to Sgt Pepper's >inside five years< ... (and within the next 18 months also came up with all the good stuff on the White Album) ...
a point raised above (they were in the right place at the right time) is true enough, but you could have taken any number of early '60s bands and they would have been doing exactly the same thing 5, 10 or 25 years later as they did when they started ...(modern equivalent: Oasis) ... meanwhile the Beatles were socially mobile, witty, intelligent (in parts), open to new ideas, creative, always moving and a breath of fresh air in a country that could remember war sacrifice and rationing (also in an overall national context when the empire was slipping away at a rate of knots and Britain was looking at itself in the mirror thinking, 'WTF?') ... ('I read the news today, oh boy...')
maybe in a country where everything seemed nailed down (and Billy Liar never left Stradhoughton), the Beatles went beyond music to embody a notion of potential ... and you could hum the tunes at the same time ... of course i had to put this together ex post facto and nothing will beat the thrill of being there (which entails having been born around 1945-50 i suppose) ... but they still occupy a Big Important Place...
Fantastic songs
That have lasted so well but as musicians were they really all that? A huge pop phenomenon yes,A great rock band? not so sure.
Also was George Martin's contribution the spark that has made the songs timeless?
Definately over-rated but then they are so ridiculously feted that they would have to be.
Give me Kashmir any day.
Damn
I forgot to mention George Martin. Trevor Horn did the same for Frankie Goes To Hollywood didn't he?
Well, there are some similarities...
...I grant you. George Martin and Trevor Horn are both producers, and The Beatles and FGTH both come from Liverpool. Er, that's about it.
Turned
ordinary songs into mulit million selling toe tappers, also kind of links them don't you think?
Not really, no
A better Horn parallel is with Phil Spector, Joe Meek or even Stock Aitken & Waterman. I have great admiration for George Martin but essentially he (and less lauded names like Geoff Emerick) took The Beatles creative input and channelled it in the most effective form (as has been discussed on the 'George Martin' and 'Great Producers' threads). It's what he was employed to do, and he was a perfect fit for the role. There are a few contenders for 'Fifth Beatle' but I would say he deserved this title. It's true to say that if he and the Beatles had never crossed paths then they may never have achieved what they did, but you could say that about several figures in the story, from Astrid Kirchnerr to Alan Williams to Brian Epstein.
Led Zep
Now THERE'S overrated. The Beatles were great. LZ were the biggest wrong turning ever to happen to popular music.
Manofsoup
I thought I was the only one of this opinion on this site ! (I did a blog a few weeks back, but it didn't get me very far).
I'm a definite 'no ta' when it comes to LZ
I have made a few comments to that effect around here... no-one has rushed to their defence, it must be said.
Led Zep.
A poor man's Deep Purple.
I totally agree. I like a
I totally agree.
I like a few Zep songs but I'm not one of those poeple that worships at their feet.
Yeah
but I accused them of being ungratious wholesale rip-off bastards
'discuss'.
The term you are looking for is
shameless plagiarists.
You had to be there?
Personally I am glad I didn't grow up in austerity Britain, live through Suez, the Cuban missile crisis, risk being sent to Vietnam (had I been born on the other side of the big pond).
Great art transcends its time and place. I 'get' Shakespeare, Dickens and Van Gogh. I wasn't there, but my emotional and critical senses are in tact. That's how good the Beatles stuff (& other 60s music) is.
I had a wonderful grounding in pop music from my parents' records. I had a standard by which to judge all subsequent music, but I'll tell you this I love my generation's music with a passion too. Born when I was I had the Smiths and the Cure to keep me company as a teenager. Never looked so miserable and had so much fun.
Being there? Different, yes. Better, possibly. But The Beatles greatness lies in their comprehensibility across the decades. Timeless art.
When I said you had to be there...
...I was addressing people who don't get it. Clearly you do, as do my kids, who seem to make no distinction between 60s music and current music - they take what they want and reject the rest. And life in austerity Britain had its moments...
OK - thanks for the clarification...
Peace, man.
:-)
That
just about wraps it up. Exactly.
Kashmir
for me is the aural equivalent of Horlicks. Soporific and repetitive. Does the job though and you don't need a prescription. I like Horlicks by the way.
they're great!
As someone who came to The Beatles late (within the last 5 years) although my dad was heavily into Miles and Dylan (though didn't get Dylan until the 70s), I had always been brought up to think they weren't any good. How surprised was I to find that not only were they good, but were in fact brilliant. Listening to something like "the White Album", I could hear the genesis of Pixies, Sonic Youth et al - all the more modern stuff that I was familiar with. I would say without the Beatles, a lot of the later stuff would never have happened. They were a massive influence - that is why they are so feted, pure and simple!
And there's
been nobody to touch them and never will be.
Outliers
The phrase 'right place, right time' is often used to diminish the group's legacy, but this is only part of the story. Malcolm Gladwell covered this in 'Outliers'. Another example he quoted was Bill Gates - yes, he was given a vanishingly rare opportunity - essentially having access to the only computer in the US (and therefore, presumably, the world) that allowed him to develop his skills, but he also had to have an acute intelligence and, crucially, the stamina to spend a ridiculous amount of time programming - the famous 10,000 hours.
I have read Outliers too
He makes good points about sports teams and the school year but the 10,000 hours formula does not ring true. Given that principle, John Otway should be the head of the United Nations!
Not in isolation
It doesn't ring true in isolation I agree; talent and creativity are of course required, but the point is that, contrary to popular perception, genius is far from effortless.
Gladwell & Campbell
Malcolm Gladwell, well-known intellectual:

Mike Campbell, guitarist with Tom Petty etc:

They invented the rock musician career arc
In an insanely short time (8 years?) they went from rock'n'rollers (Hamburg) to smart and fresh-faced (Please Please Me), to mop tops (Hard Days Night), to longer hair (Rubber Soul), to very long (Let It Be), and then a bit shorter (Abbey Road); they did the whole stopping touring thing to concentrate on writing / recording; the drug experimentation; the progress in musical style; the stab at acting (OK - Elvis and Sinatra got there before); the side projects (writing for others) and so on.
There wasn't a template for how a group was supposed to evolve - but they made it up and it has been followed by hundreds of bands since. And they did it with the world watching every step. No wonder Harrison craved privacy.
They
Didn't make it up though. Alan Williams sent them to Hamburg to make some money and they seemed to hate it. The whole mop tops thing was invented by Epstein wasn't it? The long hair thing? wasn't that the hippy style coming over from the US. Please let's not believe that they invented everything,they were good enough without giving them superpowers.
The Beatles aren’t “revered”, they’re just well-liked
The vast majority of people who are interested in post rock’nroll-boom pop music like a few Beatles songs. Hard not to, as they made so many pretty catchy ones. But lots of their solo stuff flopped, so they can’t be said to have had uncritical adoration. As people they were/are seen for what they were/are: charming, charismatic but not without their flaws and foibles.
The Beatles aren’t “revered”. They’re just well-liked and well-respected. There’s a big difference. Most people I know are aware of lots of Beatles songs and quite like them, but don’t have many of their records. I’m not convinced they’ll be stampeding to buy the reissues either.
Don't think
many people will looking at the prices.
John Lennon
said that they 'grew up in Hamburg', where they became a good, tight band for the first time. After building on this their influence was universal and sometimes symbiotic. They were influenced for certain, but they inspired to a far greater level in return. Their musical innovation in the pop world, alongside Brian Wilson, although not entirely new, was opened up and expanded further than seemed possible at the time. They opended the flood gates. Their influence melted into everything in popular culture, and fueled by their own influences, they led the cavalry charge more effectively than anyone else could. I remember reading an interview with Terry Gilliam where he said that the Beales were far more influential and subversive than The Stones or any other of their contempories, because they did it from within and they result was seismic. He was absolutely correct.
As I have stated on other
As I have stated on other threads, the simple answer is often the correct one. The reason the Beatles manage that rare thing of being revered and liked is that they were great. I was born in '71, came to them late on and was simply amazed at the quality of their output. You will always get some saying the who/stones/beach boys were better or the occassional nutter who thinks George harrison or George Martin were the real talent; this is simply muddled critical thinking. The probability of there ever being another Beatles is so remote that they are unlikely to be bettered any time soon. Isn't it great that the best band ever hails from our shore (and even better not from London!).
The 'not from London' bit is crucial...
The musical / cultural influences that the Fabs picked up as teenagers in a major port city were a key element of their later sound and outlook. Some have said that Liverpool has always had more in common with an American city than any British one. A happy accident of geography in a story full of happy accidents.