Entertainment For Lively Minds
Who the hell do I vote for?
This isn't a request for advice, more a moan about the lack of feasible choice available to me.
Labour are finished. Even their biggest fans would have to admit that their obsession with bringing the minute details of everyone's life under their immediate control has gone a bit mental, surely? I like GB, but he's about the only thing about the current Labour party which I DO like. Being a teacher, I'm hugely interested in education policy, and it's abundantly clear that 13 years of Labour has resulted in grade inflation, a fixation on testing and a tendency to serve up shit and call it filet mignon. They've done good things, but are today's kids better educated than I was? They are not.
The Tories. Well, there would have to be a sea change in everything this party stands for to make me vote for them. While Gove has said SOME halfway sensible things about education lately (although, to be clear, he's said some crazy things too), they're in favour of academies, parent choice and the all-round continued marketisation of a public service. They'll gut the BBC, kick the NHS around like a football, and break absolutely every promise they're now making.
Lib Dems? Do me a favour. Vince Cable is the only reason to vote for them. While I don't like first-past-the-post, I'm not overkeen on PR either, and beyond that, I don't get a strong sense of policy from them. Under Clegg, they've become hopelessly reactive.
No wonder no bugger votes.
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The media could help
especially television. Presenters should adopt a policy of demanding a straight answer to a straight question and not allow a politician to railroad them with the statement they have preprepared.
Wouldn't it be good if Marr,Paxman et al simply stopped an interview with the words "You obviously have no intention of answering my questions so we'll finish".
I've voted Labour and Conservative in the past but I'm frankly amazed that the Labour party can even be considered for the next government. Any party that lies to it's people to go to war deserves consigning to history.
Am I cynical?
Don't most governments lie to their people about going to war?
And much as I like a straight answer I would hate to have journalists thinking they were more important than politicians (if they don't already).
Anyone but Dave
I'd recommend voting for whoever has the best chance of keeping the Tories out in your part of the UK.
But that's just my personal bias, as informed by the years 1979 to 1997, coming to the fore.
I feel your pain
My solution? Localize your concerns. Is your local MP doing a good job? Did he or she come a cropper during the expenses row? Ignore the party and judge the person. Sadly its the only solution I can think of.
good call but...
i live in part of a constituency (Southall and Ealing) where we are in the minority: so long as our MPs keep Southall happy all of us in Ealing can go hang. Didn't get as much as a single knock on the door last time around.
I'd prefer PR as it would force less partisan politics and make the buggers deal with one another rather than just perpetuate the Yah-Boo culture.
Too right, Timmie
but the local politics here was interesting last time around. A complete change from Labour to Cons on one issue (Ken's tram down the Uxbridge Road). And as much as it absolutely kills me to admit, the Tories are doing a pretty good job on the local level. Still won't vote for 'em, though
I said I'd emigrate ...
... if the Tories got in in 2005.
This time it will be if the Tories or Labour get in.
Not sure which country will have me, though.
Iran? Zimbabwe?
I've heard they have a fair system of government based on a large number of parties to choose from...
I was hoping
for a country a bit like Britain, but with politicians I feel I could trust.
Is that too much to ask ?
Frankly yes
According to the Democracy Index only 30 countries in the world are fully democratic - and we are one of them. Mostly it is the EU, but not all of it, plus Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, South Korea, Japan and a few bits and bobs (the bankrupt Iceland, the xenophobic Swiss).
Do you really feel that our politicians are uniquely untrustworthy out of that 30?
I can't stand my local MP, but he is doing what he thinks is right. The candidate I support to replace him is working her socks off to get elected - and you don't get paid if you don't get in - and has given up a job that pays more than an MP to do so.
If you feel politicians want too much for themselves, why don't you stand? Seriously. If you genuinely think that politicians are corrupt, get stuck in and replace them. You have got time to register (if not to campaign effectively).
This is important stuff and it is easy to be cynical. Not voting is disempowering yourself.
Problem is
that I am not convinced that 30 countries are actually democratic.
Just different levels of undemocratic. The UK is certainly, for most people, a safe environment with a very advantaged population who are relatively free. Does that make it truly democratic? Do we have an elected House Of Lords? Do the politicians we have, who are not voted for by the majority of the population, come from privilege in a general sense, and do they still exploit, lie and create laws that infringe on personal freedoms and support the interests of big business.
In safe, western countries, the people with the real power, who are essentially a (in some ways) benign dictatorship, are the people with the money. Some people would say "it was ever thus."
Is it worth settling for almost democratic? Or is it worth pressing on and trying out what an actual democracy would feel like? It's never been tried so perhaps we could consider it.
How about getting rid of hereditary positions, proportional representation, a none of the above box on the ballot, scrapping this nonsense about tactical voting, and more referendums.
And all current MP's stand down and are replaced with new ones who are at least starting from the position of potentially being trustworthy.
People don't vote as they don't feel there is anyone standing for them. Not everyone has the urge, the drive, the resources or the opportunity to stand for election themselves. I am sick of people telling me, and others who state similar views, that we should stand ourselves if we really care that much.
Voting for someone you don't want to represent you is disempowerment.
I do not mean this as a personal attack. I understand the frustration with cynicism. It is just that I think I am being realistic.
agreed- pretty much
Pretty much agree with the above. I never felt we were a true democracy until we got rid (mostly) of heredity peers.
My concern about true democracy is that I don't think it can work with a community of more than a thousand or two, and we haven't organised ourselves at just that scale for at least thousands of years. I don't see a practical way to get back to that scale.
And of course people with vested interests and power (money, rank, status) will try to protect them.
And by deciding not to vote
Is how the BNP get in.
So I allow the BNP
to force me to vote for a party I do not want to vote for.
And of course a vote for a minority party is how the BNP get in. So it can't be the Greens.
So my only choice is to vote for one of the three main parties. Two really if I really want my vote to matter.
And of course Tories and Labour just represent the interests of big business.
If ever their was a time
for a don't agree with any of the above and I wish to register my protest box on voting papers it's now.We will never get it though as our Lords and Masters know it would be the winner by a country mile.As for who to vote for...haven't got the faintest.What really worries me is what might fill the political void.The B.N.P.or some other shabby beast not yet born.
If Gordon can win the election
maybe he'd be a bit more himself, a bit more confident and get on it. Plus surely the Tories would be just about finished. If they can't win now they never will...it's an important election.
Mr Fade
Do you really think that the average punter in the street wants to vote for an Old Etonian?
How many punters in the street have the decision to make?
I'd guess Old Etonians are standing in maybe 10% of seats?
Ah idiotbear
I'll have to make it down for a massive drinkies in London one time. That education policy discussion is a four pinter, minimum...
Four pinter, ABSOLUTE minimum.
I'll warn you: I can bore for England on the subject. :-)
I actually work for a London borough, so although I do a lot of teaching across all the secondary schools, I get a lot of the politics, being a member of the School Improvement Service. So yeah. Auto-rant is a very real risk.
Fun!
And don't even start
about the universities...
Really, really don't.
I get incandescent on the subject. If there's one thing that Labour have really put their backs into, it's making sure that benchmarks of quality have been rigorously devalued over the last 13 years. Everyone - simply EVERYONE - going to university is a case in point.
I work with people who straight-facedly talk about ensuring that all kids get a C in their core GCSEs. As in 100%. Blithely ignoring, or not understanding, the concept of a median. Just under 50% of kids SHOULD NOT GET C GRADES! C is intended to be the MEDIAN PASS GRADE.
Most decision-makers in education (the ones I know, at any rate) know so little about data analysis, they'd be hard pressed to tell you the difference between mean, median and mode. Anyone remember one Ed Balls quite seriously saying he wants everyone to do better than average in English and Maths? I can't believe he's not still in the stocks, faeces and soft tomatoes trickling into his collar, for that one.
Sorry, that was a small foretaste of auto-rant as constituted chez Bear. Oh dear...
Politicans and averages
Politicians don't get averages do they?
I can't find a source to back this up, but a few years ago the then health minister (who may have been Patricia Hewitt) said that it was "appalling" that half the hospitals in the country were "worse than average".
I'm not sure about its being appalling. I'd have said it was a nailed-on certainty that half of any population would be worse than the arithmetical mean (average) of that population and also that half of them would be better...
Er, not sure why it should be half and half quite like that...
...might be worth thinking about the sums. :)
I understand
I understand that if there are outliers in a range of discrete numbers that they will influence the mean, but we're talking about a limited no. of hospitals here being categorised as somewhere between high performing and poorly performing.
In a big group...
... like the national cohort of hospitals, if you've got your grading criteria right, quality should be normally distributed. So yeah, the average and median should be the same.
EDIT: actually, no. I'm just thinking some more about this, and the above ain't necessarily so. But in practice, it's likely to work out something like that.
Sippo!
Please don't ask where I've worked for the last 15 years.
Clue: the current acronym is brought to you by the letters C, F, S and D.
I've occasionally had to bore for Wales and Northern Ireland too...
Haha.
Fantastic. C'mon, c'mon, let's bore together...
I could start by pointing out
that grades these days are largely criterion-referenced rather than norm-referenced ("largely", 'cos it's not quite as simple as that) so the C really isn't a median 'pass' grade. Says a non-decision maker with a maths degree.
But that would be to ignore the discussion about whether that should be the the case. Which would get to table slapping stage - and possibly voluble agreement - somewhere around the start of the second pint by my reckoning...
Let's leave the poor people be for now eh? ;-)
Probably a good idea.
But just to agree wholeheartedly - I wasn't trying to say that C *is* the median as it stands, just that it should be.
But yeah, I imagine we'd be doing everyone a favour if we shut up about now. ;)
Rant modes
I don't know - it can be interesting for us all to rant. Sadly I think your first comment on C grades was confusing. Well it was for me.
But it is a very interesting point - is education about establishing levels of knowledge and capability (in which case everyone getting a C is a feasible goal) or about ranking and segmenting the yearly cohort (in which case obviously 50% must be below average). I don't think the public at large knows which one it wants (and you can't have both).
EVERYONE getting a C just isn't desirable...
...unless you want to change what a C means.
C, as originally conceived, was supposed to be the mean grade. On a normal distribution curve, the median (i.e. the mid point, or 50% in the test) would be the same as the arithmetical mean (all the scores added together, then divided by the number of candidates). Intelligence is pretty much normally distributed (i.e. if you plotted everyone's intelligence, by whatever measure, on a graph, you'd end up with a symmetrical curve, called a bell curve).
So, in the general population, IQ scores cluster around the mean value - the top bit of the bell, which is slap bang in the middle. We call the mean of intelligence scores "IQ 100" (that name is totally arbitrary, but the mid-point isn't). In other words, most people would score somewhere around the 100 mark, with far fewer people at the extremes either side. This is true from experience, too: we tend to encounter plenty of reasonably bright/able people, very few geniuses and very few people with crippling learning difficulties.
At some point, someone decided that the benchmark grade by which we would judge whether someone "passed" school should be a C. Most people see a C as "average", and when it comes to qualifications, public perception is king. So if they think it means average, it better had. If an employer, in specifying that they want a minimum C in English and Maths, thinks that those C grades mean "this person has attained the expected level of literacy and numeracy for a sixteen year old", you have to make the C mean "mean"!
Sure, a C grade can be made to mean whatever you like, but that meaning has to be accepted by the public.
Tories
Didn't the Tories bring in school league tables and the national curriculum?
Personally, I think my kids are getting a much better education than I did. Some of those who passed for teachers back in the 70s and 80s (we all know people like them) wouldn't stand a chance these days.
Yes, the Tories took us to the gates of hell...
...and then Labour frog-marched us as far as the fifth circle, where we remain to this day, with fucking eagles pecking at our livers.
I think Labour's excuse of "we inherited it from the Tories" ran out in '99 at the very latest. They had ample opportunity to dismantle the league tables, which are genuinely the source of all educational evil - if you abolished them, everything would be better. But they didn't abolish them. They had a mandate to do pretty much anything in 1997, such was the goodwill they had in the bank. They didn't.
As for the National Curriculum, I have no objection to it in principle. In practice, there are silly bits of it, but I quite like that there's a nationally applied standard for what gets taught - it makes everyone that much more accountable, and gives students the power to know what they're supposed to be learning. Before 1985, teachers could essentially pull a curriculum directly out of their arses, on a teacher-by-teacher basis. Not all of my profession are necessarily all that bright or all that good at curriculum design, so the outcomes were pretty bloody variable.
My heart has been heavy with this for a while...
I absolutely refuse to vote for Labour after these 2 last horrific terms, but I can't yet bring myself to vote Conservative, and recognise that (in my area) a Liberal vote will be a wasted one, yet I don't want to contribute to that potential vacuum that might let a BNP in the door...
I'm currently edging closest to the earlier idea suggested of just supporting my current local incumbent (Tory, didn't get away scot free on the expenses farrago, but in all honesty does a good job with local issues), but I won't feel good about it.
Just my point of view
We've had Conservative MP and local councilor since the last election, and it really isn't very good at all. Both are currently now taking lots of credit for things that they didn't have any part in, and sending numerous mail shots to tell us so (no doubt funded by Lord Ashcroft).
This should probably act as a warning to the rest of the UK.
But isn't that the problem?
National politicians especially are dealing with complex issues that require long-term fixes. Since they can't fix the problem properly in time for the results to be seen at the next election, they'll be strongly tempted to take a short-term fudge that makes it look like they've done something or they'll highjack some good news as "evidence" their policies are working.
We need to hold politicians responsible for outcomes as much as policies.
to quote
my old gaffer "the only time they tell the truth is when they call each other liars"
It's a disgraceful situation:
I want to vote for a Labour party that simply no longer exists. I fundamentally cannot vote Tory; being from Liverpool, and having grown up under Thatcher's government of the 1980s, it would break my heart to do it. And whilst I can see the obvious flaws in this subjective reasoning, my conscience is eased by the fact that it's not like they're doing anything to present me with cause for reevaluating.
For me, there really is no credible option: Lib Dem just aren't there; Tory I won't even consider; Labour *should* just be my default setting, but I cannot square their behaviour these last two terms. None of them are good enough for us, and that is mortifying - their political forebears must be turning in their graves.
I suspect I'll end up doing whatever is necessary to mitigate the chances of BNP getting any seats anywhere near me.
Snap
A week or so I nearly posted the exact same sentiments and analysis. It is depressing. I really dont want to say A Plague on All Your Houses, but it is getting to that point. I think DH's column in the present issue pinpoints some of the problem: news management and PR ("Dave" C's only attempt at a real job) are usurping political content.
I suppose, in a way, we are to blame - Gandhi used to say "Be the change you want to see in the world."
Such a shame
My local MP is stepping down. She's really been in touch with local issues and what we locals think. Never anywhere near all this nasty expenses kerfuffle. I will really miss her.
Sorry? Her name? Ruth Kelly. Sorry...
I go with the others. I vote for a candidate who I think will do a good job. In the past I have voted for a Lib Dem candidate I knew personnally even though she admitted herself she would be lucky to come third. This time, the only local candidate going out to meet the public is someone who was a director of a company I worked for and I liked. She is a Conservative. The last local Tory I had any respect for was a vice-patron of the charity I am involved with. He also helped to bring down the disastrous John Major government by defecting to the Lib Dems. Funny old world.
Easy for me
My local MP is a vile toad-like creature called Nicholas "Fatty" Soames, a Tory grandee so loathsome that when Cameron asks him to go away and hide for the whole election campaign, as he surely will, he will probably choose to do so in Margaret Thatcher's arse.
Kind of narrows the choice down a bit.
Well I have heard
some interesting comments about him and his approach to supporting local businesses in the Gatwick area. We should discuss down the pub on the 26th if we run out of music/films/books/technology/sartorial matters to discuss. Should keep us off religion at least.
The only comment I have ever really heard about Soames...
... is the one supposedly made by an ex mistress who said "Making love to him was like having a wardrobe fall on you with the key sticking out."
I do love that quote...
But at odds with the tale I heard
which suggests he was an enormous cock.
I Got An Email
From Tony Robinson (of Blackadder fame),or someone claiming to be him, asking me to sign up to an alternative way of running the country. I haven't done so yet because they don't come across as being clear about they want, just clear about what they don't want.
http://www.power2010.org.uk/
He was on the Labour party NEC...
...just so you know.
I'm represented by a Labour MP, and a Tory councillor, both rubbish.
Pick one of the three
seems to be the only solution. I can't vote Tory (I think I am allergic). I won't vote Labour because of the lies and the control ethos (although I like GB). Lib Dem's it is then. It can't be worse than anything since 1979. Can it?
Yes it can
Based on the authoritarian horlicks they're making of running Edinburgh.
you could stand yourself
and make a difference to society or get on the local council, or become a governer of local school volunteer for a local charity. I know most people round here have given up on all this sort of thing and are curled up with their boxsets but nothing good about in the Uk without normal people making a change.
Voting is a good start .
I live in a safe Tory seat
so who I vote for will make very little difference. It'll be a protest vote against Cameron and the particulalry odious Osbourne. Pointless really, but that's all there is.
I'll vote Lib Dem this time, as I did last time
because my MP works his arse off and actually consults his constituents (he's won awards for his use of the interwebby doodah and email stuff) and listens to what they have to say.
I got an email from him this very day asking about my views on the proposed 'Robin Hood Tax'. I intend to say that I think it's an affront to natural justice, as we need to support our forestry based industries as much as possible.
A Labour alternative doesn't exist round here, and the prospective Tory is the worst kind of all; originally working class. Not only is he standing as a Tory candidate, he's deluded enough to think he's one of them.
I just don't know...
Gordon Brown seems like the classic example of someone whose always wanted the top job, but when he gets there doesn't know what to do. Plus the party seems hell bent at times to play the 'toff' card - funny how class shouldn't matter, but only as long as you are working class.
David Cameron has tried to move the Tories on (but seems too weak, not quite sure what they stand for, and ends up trying to appease the older Tories), but they are still handicapped by the last two generations of MP's and the history of the party.
Nick Clegg seems to be a carbon copy of Cameron. The party only seems popular because it was the one that voted against the war.
Having said all that, I'll never vote BNP or UKIP. It's too little Englander for me.
So, who do I go for? Well, where I live is a solid Labour area and I cannot really see what good it's done for the town. Added to that, I see on a daily basis the mess the tax system is in; the bribery of the middle-classes by bringing them into the Tax Credit system.
That just leaves the Tories or Lib Dems... one of them will get my vote, but really by default. I don't want to not vote, either - we need a change of government.
God help the UK.
Just to be clear
Cameron hasn't tried to 'move the Tories on', he's tried to make them appear electable (IMO), hence the bike rides to work with limo following a discreet distance behind, the talking down of 'Broken Britain' (ooh, alliteration! Those years in PR paying off...), the 'change' mantra, despite not actually giving much of an indication what the change would be. I find it hugely depressing that it might actually work. Whatever you think of Brown (& there's much to dislike), he can't be accused of style over substance. Through the Blair years people moaned that it was all about spin and presentation, but now we have a guy who presents worse than a Fearn Cotton and Vernon Kay tribute to Mick & Sam we don't like it. I prefer the Britain today to that of the 80's (music aside...). Clause 28 v civil partnerships, no school milk v surestart, 13% v 0.5%. Also, I love the BBC, the NHS and during the recession have benefited from the much maligned tax credits. So I'll vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the Tories out - to misquote some Scots, Anyone But Dave.
Far from perfect
I agree that Cameron is too much of a salesman, but as I said, I see day to day how small businesses are effected by the actions of Gordon Brown in all the years as Chancellor and now Prime Minister - and there is no way I want him to stay in charge.
New initiatives are brought in, then dropped a year or so down the line - then replaced by something else. There seems very little long-term planning.
Tax Credits seem to be an attempt to tie the publics fortunes to that of the state. Helping those on low income is a good idea, but creating a whole new system to deal with it was a bad idea.
They've placed more and more legislation on small businesses, meaning business owners have to spend more time doing paperwork than actually trying to make their businesses a success.
This has benefitted my workplace - as we can take that burden away - but becuase HMRC now runs on less funds and they are having to make more cuts in staff numbers, offices and systems - which all goes to make actually dealing with them on behalf of clients a much harder task (call centres replacing offices an example).
Plus, with the downturn in the economy HMRC are being asked to get more money in - which gives rise to more and more tax enquiries. This means more of our time spent on these (each case can last 3 months to 2 years) and less on the basic paperwork that businesses actually need to do day to day.
Even paying tax is being badly managed. We have a client who was told to exhaust all forms of raising the money to fund a tax bill - increase your overdrafts as far as you can (or get as much of one as you can), increase the mortgage on your home, even pay by credit card before they'd even think about letting them pay in installments. How is a business supposed to thrive and prosper?
The principles behind what they've tried to achieve are, on the whole, okay - but they are rushed, badly planned and badly implemented which leads to a constant need to tweak the system.
I'm far from enthusiastic about voting for the Conservatives or the Lib Dems, but I don't really know who else to vote for and it's a troublesome position to be in. I just know that things need to change, and I cannot see Gordon Brown changing.
There is definately an issue with complexity- I
run a small business myself. But do you really think HMRC will call off the attack dogs because of a change in Govt? Besides, it seems the cuts in funding for the civil service (leading to call centres and the idiot suggesting a remortgage to pay a tax bill) were to counter the charge of waste being bandied around during the last election. Much of the new legislation forced upon me seems (to me at least) to come from a good place in terms of social justice, but yes I'd love it to be simpler. Will that happen, though, whoever is next? In the meantime the schools I visit for my job are vastly better funded than when I attended (78-92), waiting lists are down in the NHS and even the worst recession in living memory(TM) seems thus far to be less socially corrosive than the problems we experienced in the 80s. To my eyes the impetus behind the need to get rid of Brown stems from a personal dislike. I'm no cheerleader; I let my party membership lapse as the prefix 'New' was added, and feel desolate over the war and their failure to capitalise on the huge mandate in those early days to *really* do some good. There is certainly, as you say, a distressing tendancy toward short- termism and bowing to popular (press) opinion. Even in 1997 they seemed scared of upsetting The Mail et al and lacked the courage of their convictions. But at least they have convictions and at the moment I see no alternative. Though I'd take Cable as chancellor...
My problem is with the current Government...
... remaining is the trend of over-regulation will keep on going. A better system is needed, but I know that will take at least a decade to change it for the better - I don't expect an overnight change.
I've no personal dislike for Brown, I just feel that the regulations he has put in are strangling small businesses. It's the idea that the State knows best that worries me (and with the Conservatives it's that everything should be open to market forces). The middle ground sounds like the place to be, and this is what all sides pretend they are - but I just don't quite see it.
I think why the 80's was more corrosive was that it was as a result of a fundamental change in the UK economy from an industrial nation to more service sector based economy.
Ultimately is it better the devil you know? I'm just so confused and saddened by the political system we have, I increasingly feel that national politics cannot be influenced by me, and I should just go native, as it where.
Reno, if this were CB we'd be searching for an empty channel now
I get the over-regulating thing. But, in posts below people are arguing that it was under-regulation of the banks which caused the recession, so get rid of Brown! Like I said, I can see that much of it comes from a perspective I have sympathy with - some parts of society need protecting - whilst I recognise that it enrages free marketeers. I really disagree about the causes of 80s unrest though. I definitely put that down to what amounted to a class war - but from the top down.
In the end though I share your sadness, but thoughtful people like you MUST vote, or it gets left to the rest of them...
For viewers in Scotland
there is of course the SNP too, which is either:
- a valid alternative to Labour, yet who (unlike LibDems) have a good chance of making a difference, or
- a fourth depressing non-alternative
depending on your politics.
Politics
I have no idea who to vote for; or when my priorities lie.
My default setting suggests I should vote for the Labour Party (I'm far more of a socialist, or egalitarianist than not) but aside from that I think I'm too young to understand how a difference is going to affect me. But, do I vote for the party who (supposedly by definition) share the same beliefs as me; or do I go for the Conservatives simply because a change might do us some good? I'm too young to remember Thatcher, and the '97 election is probably the first one I remember.
See Moon-faced Dave's plan is working
I can't see exactly what "change" I'm voting for, so I think I'll not bother with that one. YMMV of course
The Lib Dems will win
round here as they always do. It's a tough call nationally because while I would hate to see any extremists hold any sort of power I just feel the big?? 3 need a scare and a shake up. A few BNP MP's or UKIP or Green anything just to shake the apathy and sleeze and general pointlessness of the last 20 years of government. This will be the lowest turn out for an election ever, the winner could have 20% or less of the voting publics vote and be running the country for the next 5 years. How the fuck did it come to this?
P.S memo to Uncle Wheaty this is when I realised I'd turned into a miserable old git.
I will vote
but I will not vote for any of them; unfortunately it appears that a spoiled ballot is the only option I have in my arsenal, living as I do in a seat with a 4000 Tory majority.
Where I live, it's easy...
...it's ANYONE but Peter Robinson. Need I remind the massive who this man is(was)? I thought not...
Actually, the choice isn't quite so cynical: I had reason two days ago to try and enlist another local MLA (member of NI legislative assembly) from my constituency to help me with work related matter where a 'question to the minister' might make a difference and I was staggered, and frankly impressed, when Ms Long replied to me within three hours, from Washington, USA, to set up a meeting on her return.
THAT'S public service in action. My cynicism is momentarily suspended and, for the decency of getting back to me so swiftly and accommodatingly, Ms L is getting my vote. Hopefully petulent Pete will be consigned to the expenses-free gravyless train to oblivion he deserves.
While you're at it,
can you ask Ms Long if she has any powers to oblige Tara records to get real with the cost of their back catalogue?
It's a Long shot, Vulpmeister...
...but I know Tara supremo John Cook pretty well (though haven't been in touch for, oh, too long.... must do something about that...) and his attitude to catalogue is keep it out there for the long haul, absolutely no best-ofs (because retail will effectively never stock any of say Liam O'Flynn's albums proper if they can just keep a best-of in the store)...
I suspect he's possibly missing a trick if he's still sticking to this line, given that physical retail is dying a death...
Puntastic!
Put it this way, I have a list of Planxty and Liam O'Flynn titles on my wishlist as long as yer arm, but at £12.99 a pop the list won't be getting much shorter very quickly.
I mainlined on Horslips earlier this year when the (latest) reissues came out, and they were'nt anything like as expensive.
I'm all in favour of 'keeping the catalogue out there', and very much in favour of a 'no compilations' policy, but I'd really like to be able to play catch-up without having to forego a few pints every weekend or go without tickets for local gigs in order to afford it!
It's all your fault anyway for writing that bloody book!
Ah, well at least we've found the guy to blame!
...let's find out where he lives and smash up his garden gnomes... :-D
Whoever you vote for ....
..... the government always gets in, or so the old line goes. Therefore, think of your vote as for the least worst party - being a red of an Old Labour hue (is there even such a thing as a Kinnockite? I guess that describes me), it'll pain me voting for the likes of Milliband the Elder or Jack 'We Need A Big Conversation' Straw, but for me Labour are the least crappist amongst the main 3.
I'll never ever vote Tory (in fact, I don't want them to just lose the election, I'll like them to all die in a bus crash, with Cameron first through the windscreen, exploding in a cloud of moisturiser as he hits the macadam!), and the Lib Dems : for every decent sort like Cable, Ashdown, and Norman Baker, there's a useless oddity like Lembit or Clegg.
If this still leaves a taste of twelveday old scotch egg bought from Leicester Forest East service station in yer mouth, then at least put a mark in the Yes column for the Greens. Not voting is as good as putting the Tories in, so when the Beeb and the NHS get nuked from orbit by Dave and The Oik, at least you can say you'd tried.
BR
FT
The bottom line is...
Do you want Gordon Brown in Downing Street for the next five years?
Surely the bottom line is
Do you want Gordon Brown in Downing Street for the next five years more than you want David Cameron? That is a tougher question (and the point of the OP).
As the man who saved the world
I don't see why not...
I live in a true blue
I live in a true blue constituency where a vote for anyone else than John Redwood is effectively a wasted vote. So I have little choice in influencing the outcome.
But I will still vote. Stopped staying up all night for the results years ago - prefer some kip.
Its going to be crap whoever gets in cos they wont have the bottle to do the right things - only those things which are popular plus blame each other....
Do the right thing
I would be happier if they just stopped doing the wrong thing.
so tricky
to know the difference though...
Surely a wasted vote
is better than a vote for John Redwood?
Who knows?
the electoral process in his corner of the galaxy might make that difficult to tell
You should count yourselves lucky
There will be an election in Holland in June and Geert Wilders (think charismatic BNP) has a genuine chance of winning. And not only that, being British, I can't vote here.
It's looking like I won't be voting in the election...
as none of the candidates appeal to me. This is not a situation I'm pleased about as I consider having the right to vote to be immensely important. If a politician came along that truly spoke my language and didn't set the alarm ringing on my finely-tuned Bullshitometer™ , I would vote for him or her like a shot.
Gordon Brown
Would be nice if he is going to stay in Downing Street that he at least be elected to do so this time, rather than just taking over power and assuming no-one will mind.
Therein is part of the problem
In 2005, Tony Blair was not elected as anything. Labour were elected to be the government, with Blair as leader. So, they changed leader. Labour were still the party of government. I don't really see the big hang up, after all, we don't have a presidential system, do we? Do we?
So glad to read someone else saying this too.
I'm quite amazingly fed up of people whining on that "we didn't elect Gordon Brown." Damn right, your Labour MPs did (or didn't) and they are the same ones who didn't put any alternative leader up against him.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think
that they vote for a Prime Minister.
But...
In practice, a vote for Labour IS a vote for Gordon Brown as PM, and a vote for the Conservatives is a vote for David Cameron. It's not, in most cases, ignorance that makes people talk about voting for a certain person rather than a party, it's reality.
As prime ministers have become more presidential, so people feel even more like they're voting for a person, and become even more disillusioned when that choice is taken away from them. Maybe our constitution needs to change to make this more explicit, but that's a whole other issue.
I seem to remember a Conservative
doing the same, not so very long ago. It's par for the course with our system, so what's the beef?
From the top
In the UK we do not elect Prime Ministers.
We elect MPs, who choose the Prime Minister.
It is quite common for MPs to choose a new Prime Minister between elections - around half of our Prime Ministers of the last 50 years attained power in this way.
Churchill
Including Churchill of course, who many of us think did a good job (the first time round at least).
Is there an internet rule about invoking Churchill, like there is about invoking his "opponent" in an internet discussion? In which case I guess I have lost the argument.
Oh yes.
(In my best Churchillian voice)
Wha? You don't mean the dog Churchill from the ads? What other Churchill is there..? Der.
"the first time round"?
I guess you mean the concentration camps and sticking it to the fuzzy-wuzzies when he'd just left the playing fields for a gallop 'round Africa in Army uniform?
That's an interestingly 21st Century perspective on the great
man.
I'm not sure the historical events you invoke were all his own work.
[Not picking a fight VV - I can see the tongue in the cheek :-)]
I think it was very much a
'all the years other than 1939-55' perspective on his work.
Even at the time he held controversial views over the use of poison gas against "uncivilised tribes"
Fair enough.
I bow to your superior historical knowledge.
Having piqued my interest, a little Googling reveals that 'uncivilised tribes' seems to be used to differentiate between one form of warfare & 'war between civilised nations' (the language of the British Army) where the 'rules of war' apply. These 'rules' do not therefore apply when fighting 'uncivilised tribes.'
Churchill also said, "It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."
It doesn't make it right, of course. But set in a context (as history must be) it is perhaps easier to comprehend.
Genuinely, thanks for giving me a shove in my understanding.
hmmm...
do we forgive Saddam Hussein because of historic context? What about Nixon? Kissinger? Hitler? Blair?
Churchill behaved unforgivably. He was a personality and he was in power during the war but I don't think that's enough to forgive him. Slobodan Milosevic probably tells funny stories at parties! Robert Mugabe is quite a character!
I don't think Churchill won the war for us. I think we would have one even with someone else in power. I also don't think war criminals should be forgiven.
I'm not saying war criminals aren't humans. And I don't think we can easily dismiss them by saying they are evil, it is much more complex than that. But we shouldn't forgive them.
And I certainly wish that this country would stop idolising our worst leaders.
Not suggesting forgiveness.
I also think it is widely accepted that without Churchill, Britain would have been much more likely to surrender to Germany in 1940.
In Churchill's case we are talking about the events of almost a century ago. The Second World War, and its outcome formed the world we live in, which in turn shapes our view. The General Election of 1945 marked the beginning of the end of the old guard, Churchill and his ilk. The days of Empire were done, the Welfare State was born, and all to the good. The people of the war generation had to go through hell to give birth to a better world - perhaps that is one of the grim inevitablilities of human history. I feel very fortunate to have been born British in the latter half of the 20th Century. We may find Churchill's views and actions distasteful, perhaps even 'unforgivable' but he helped to shape the freedoms we now enjoy (perhaps inadvertently, but he was a crucial figure).
Another example of this is Arthur 'Bomber' Harris - another deeply controversial figure of the same generation - we may detest the idea of indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population to win a war, we may find the views of the decision makers repugnant, we may even feel that such mass slaughter had little effect of the final outcome - but we are blessed with hindsight and the freedom to reflect upon it.
I'm not asking for forgiveness for anyone. Personally I'm trying to form a dispassionate view, and understand the facts.
As for the other leaders you name: a dispassionate analysis of how they came to power & why they behave(d) as they did is the only way I can look at it. They didn't act alone, they had public support - that's crucial context, surely? If people have acted inhumanely, illegally, they need to be brought to account, of course - but Hussein, Hitler, Milosevic and the others didn't appear out of a vacuum. That's what fascinates me about history.
absolutely
everyone is a product of their times and so I don't actually suggest we consider anyone evil etc...
But what gets my goat is the uncritical hero worship of Churchill by people who automatically condemn those people I named.
It's the double standard that I object to. Although it doesn't sound like you have that going on so apologies if my comment was off aim.
I don't agree with your analysis of a Britain without Churchill. I suspect that history would have thrust someone else into his position. Just as I think without Hitler a different figure head would have been found to occupy a similar space in history. But we can't really prove it either way.
And I also think that the lessons we learn from history must be to oppose indiscriminate bombing and the gassing of civilians or even of the enemy armies. What use is freedom if we do not learn from our past mistakes.
An important part of that is evaluating our former heroes with an accurate eye, rather than through the eyes of the time. Since we have what people like to call the luxary of hindsight I think we should use it.
No apology required.
This is an interesting & lively discussion.
Analysis & opinion will always differ. Which is why I think it wise to leave it there.
Happy Easter.
:-)
I suggest...
...some sort of farcical aquatic ceremony. You know: women lying around in ponds, distributing swords - that sort of thing, anyway.
I thought we were an autonomous collective
Thanks Con - I laughed out loud!
I now know what I'll be writing to spoil my ballot paper in a few weeks time.
Thatcher didn't get too much ridicule
for the Falklands war.Is that because we won it? Whatever it was a manufactured situation to boost her popularity. Whatever the wrongs of the Iraq war Blair knew he wasn't going to be popular just from the mass protests alone. Compared to the crap that we had to endure under Thatcher/Major I think Blair/Brown has been a massive success. Brown has a problem with presentation, of that there is no argument. I happen to believe that he is a man of great conviction and no small amount of sincerity.
David Cameron on the other hand is a smarmy wanker who looks like he tucks his shirt in his underpants.
A hung parliament with a greater role for the likes of Vince Cable may not be a bad thing.
If nothing else...
...if the Lib Dems end up being the kingmakers in a hung parliament, they'll be in a position to demand Cable as Chancellor. If you're Labour or the Tories, the choice between acceding to Lib Dem demands or four years in opposition is no choice at all.
Politics is broken
... and it would be foolish to think that enough of our politicians have the desire, or the ability, to fix it. We won't really be offered any choice in May, so the Lab-Lib-Con alliance will certainly win.
The best hope of genuine change is to register enough 'protest' votes -or perhaps abstentions- to force the political class to address the concerns of an increasingly disillusioned electorate.
It's the election after May 2010 that might turn out to be one of the most interesting and significant that we'll ever have.
abstentions change nothing
Votes for a "protest party" - Greens, UKIP, BNP, Monster Raving Looney, whatever - get noticed because they are people engaged enough with the process to vote and therefore are potential voters for the other parties. You just have to win them over. Abstainers are just seen as apathetic. To have an impact vote for somebody - just not the main parties if you don't want them in.
I think you are wrong
... about abstainers being seen as merely 'apathetic'. A lot of the people who will not vote in May will be abstaining out of sheer antipathy. They are, in fact, pretty far from being apathetic and I suspect that that idea is now out there in the public consciousness.
agree
I meant seen as apathetic from the point of view of political parties - as people they are probably far from apathetic, but political parties are pretty much only interested in people who can or may vote.
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I blame Bill Gates
It may be a pertinent anagram, lads...
... I've just noticed that 'Lib-Lab-Con' rearranges as 'no cab bill'. Whatever way they dress up their expenses in the next parliament, they'll always find a free ride...
Pretty easy really. Labour
Pretty easy really. Labour may not have been all it was hoped to be in 1997 but IMO anything is better than the Tories. Has everyone forgotten the "Me First" 80s. How anyone can actually think the Tories know or care what it is like to be an ordinary working person is beyond me. Most of their front line politicians are former public school so please don't tell me they have changed. Cameron may come across as all nice, caring and photogenic but isn't that exactly what people ended up disliking about Blair?
I shall be spoiling my ballot
It is the only choice I can see to make since they have not got a None Of The Above box.
I personally would prefer it to be illegal not to vote but for there to be a none of the above box. If that box got the majority vote then the election gets held again until people who are palletable stand.
That is however a utopian impossabilty, so after a few years of settling for Green I find myself making this sad decision.
buggers do vote
I know it is an easy commonplace thing to say but people DO vote. 27 million of them at the last election. That is nearly half the population of the country, and 61% of the electorate. MORE people eligible to vote do so than do not. And remember many people live in consituencies where there is a huge majority for one party of other.
Do not give up on democracy - it only looks rubbish until you consider the alternative (Churchill?)
61%
means that 39% of the electorate have effectively voted for none of the above. Since I believe the voting age should probably be 14 or at least 16 then from my point of view there are even more people not voting our governments in.
Add to that all the people who settle on voting for the best of a bad bunch and people who vote tactically or out of social pressure and you have an undemocratically elected parliament. Plus the House of Lords is not democratic at all. And both houses are governed in general terms by the interests of business.
As I said at greater length and more thoroughly earlier in the thread, part in response to your earlier point about the UK being one of the only 30 democratic countries that exist, I am not giving up on democracy. I do not accept any country as having achieved it yet. Not really.
I believe we shouldn't give up on it, we should instead insist on it.
I do however admire and crave your belief in our "democracy". It is the same surety I often hunger for when I come accross people with religious certainty.
"Burn down the disco
Hang the blessed D.J.
Because the music that they constantly play
It says nothing to me about my life"
— Morrissey
That's how I feel about politics generally speaking.
closer than you think
I agree with more of what you say than I disagree. Particularly about the House of Lords, and about pushing for more democracy. I don't think things are perfect (STV and abolishing the HoL are top of my list).
I am just very aware that things could be a lot worse, and are for most people in the world and believe that they way to make things better is to engage not step aside.
Morrissey doesn't like disco music - so he made his own. That is what I propose people should do if they don't like the mob we have now.
A Simpleton writes
There is no Left Wing. There is no Right Wing.
There is only a reaction to events and issues that occur as they seem to arise. Labour will do this if 'A' happens/is happening. Tories will do that etc.
All 3 major parties now inhabit the same centre ground, making for a very dull and crowded venn diagram.
I genuinely do not know how I shall vote this year. Gordon Brown has proved himself, to me at least, as an empty vessel. He may be a dynamic, driven, charismatic chap behind closed doors. In front of them where I see him he's a spoilt, inept and uncomfortable character.
Dave C looks and sounds like an Airfix Prime Minister. He's not at all real. And should be suspended from a ceiling for a few weeks, taken down and melted.
Whatever happens we'll be in for another term of cuts and misery. So you may aswell vote for your cat.
Airfix Prime Minister!
Priceless. Spot on.
Vote for my cat?
She just ignores me most of the time, only seeks attention when it's on her own terms, yells when she wants something from me, and will happily draw blood if I so much as look at her the wrong way. So, nothing like a Government politician at all then ...
I don't see the sense in voting for the Tories
as they haven't got a clue about their own policies so how are we supposed to know? To slip from a 14 point lead to neck and neck shows pretty clearly that the general public think Cameron is a buffoon. That's in the honeymoon period - imagine what he would be like after being married to him for a couple of years. He is a puppet as far as I can see for the far right loonies who will run amok should the unthinkable happen and they get in.
Election thrills
I feel more enthusiastic about Labour than before the last two elections. In 2001 and 2005, Labour took a lot of people's votes for granted, putting themselves forward as the least worst option - for example sticking Hague in a Thatcher wig to put people off.
But now there is a clear choice. The Tories want to use the excuse of the national debt to carry out their long-cherished dream of dismantling public services, conveniently forgetting that the NHS was set up when Britain was skint after WW2 (and we only paid off our war debt to the US in 2005).
Labour may have to cut some of the debt but it will preserve public services.
As for Gordon Brown, he may not have Blair's valuable political gift to gladhand and smalltalk, but it's not X Factor. Brown's a serious thoughtful man and that's the sort of person you want to deal with huge economic problems.
Besides a clear difference between the main parties, there's a chance that many MPs with majorities of under 5,000 could be vulnerable, making every vote in count.
Minor parties such as Ukip, the Greens and the BNP are likely to get a bigger share of the vote too.
I'm afraid I stopped
after Tony Blair took all of the hope and optimisim of Labour's 1997 and kicked the absolute shit out of it through his duplicitous behaviour over Iraq and his hero worship of the Texan simpleton Bush.
A lot of people think the same
But the important question surely is what happens now. Blair is gone.
Hey!
That's my mate you are talking about... If the Daily Mail front page story is true you can add greedy money-grabbing bastard to your description.
Labour
Happily, my local Labour MP voted against the war, is untainted by the expenses scandal and is unfailingly helpful. Easy choice.
I don't like the Tories - don't like what the stand for, don't like their assumptions about how people should live, don't like the way they think they are being polite by using the word "coloured". Though, to be fair, it probably is more polite than what they say in private.
The Lib Dems? They put a woman in charge of local state schools who is cutting their budgets and closing some down, in an appalling heavy-handed manner - and who had her own children educated privately. I find that sort of contempt hard to take.
And apart from anything else, I quite like Gordon Brown. He is a Prime Minister who is bad at PR and spin.
"Dave" Cameron is a former PR professional who would be a bad Prime Minister.
It's Gordon for me.
My problem is not even the leaders
But I look at the frontbenches for the two biggest parties and see...
nothing.
No one of the calibre of Foot, Healey, Whitelaw, Powell (whatever you may think of him he was highly skilled), Carrington, Castle, Jenkins, Williams, Thatcher (ghastly as she was) even.
We have Bob Ainsworth. Who? Milliband. Ed Balls. Sitting opposite are Cameron, Osborne, Hague and a shadow cabinet that I can barely remember. And I'm supposedly reasonably interested in politics. And then there's Mandelson, who comically has a pop at Lord non-dom Ashcroft. But at least Tricky Dickie can sort out a mortgage without making an utter twat of himself. Then you look at the lkes of Kennedy and Cable, who are capable, skilled (and seemingly decent) men, and then look at Clegg, who's worse than useless.
The choice is awful. And the political culture is an undignified competition to see who can piss highest. It stinks. That's why I'll be spoiling - not because of apathy but out of sheer bloody frustration that en masse, they are fucking useless.
[sorry if that's a bit strong for some]
Good point
The worrying thing is that the personalities in the current Government appear lightweight and forgettable - perhaps an indication that they have no resonance with the British voting public. Given the length of time they have been in office, this is telling. People listen to the likes of Kenneth Clark and William Hague because they have experience and presence. How many cabinet ministers would you recognise if you bumped into them in the street? Bob Ainsworth reminds me of Roger Melly The Man on The Telly.
Well
I've been a Labour Party member since 1981 and Michael Foot was leader. I've seen it transform itself from an amateurish rabble to an unstoppable electoral force and now it seems set to go full circle.
I was a Labour Councillor for six years and later worked for a Labour MP (and current cabinet member) for six years. This election will be the first in nearly thirty years where I have done next to nothing.
But I will still be voting Labour. The alternative of Cameron, Ashcroft, Osborne and Hague taking over is too awful to flirt with.
Brown has poor PR skills and there is no doubt the Labour government has squandered the huge mandate for change it had in 1997 but ditching them just because "it's time for a change" is a bit juvenile.
This government didn't cause the global recession but it has stuck to its policies so that we get out of it with the lowest casualties possible. Compare that with the 1980s with 15% interest rates and mass unemployment. The fragile recovery is underway. I for one don't want to risk handing it over to the people who have criticised every measure the government has taken to cushion the recession for ordinary working families.
I kept my old membership card,
the one with Clause Four printed on it, and I carry it to this day in my wallet. I posted the new one back to Number 10 when I left the party. Perhaps I should have stayed.
oops
wrong place
Who do I Vote For?
I come from a solid Labour-supporting background. My Grandad was a Socialist back before the First World War. My dad was a (minor) trade union official in the industry he worked in and my Uncle Ron was a party activist. I have cousins who are Labour activists and my sister is a trade union official at the branch of Tesco where she works. I wish I could support Labour but I cannot at present.
I never took to Blair, considering him a smarmy opportunist only in it for his own interest and was dismayed when he became party leader. Now, after years of following the path he and his kind started them down, I can no longer see anything much worth voting for with Labour.
On the other hand there are certain things on certain other parties' agendas that I am vehemently -against- and I also wish to see my local smug Labour MP Claire Ward given the good kicking she richly deserves, so I will be voting for the LibDems as the least harmful of the opposing candidates who stands a chance of winning the seat.
Some good has undoubtedly come from the recent years of Labour government but a lot of dreadful harm has also been done. Hopefully Labour will come to understand this and get back to some core values.
"From each according to their means, to each according to their need" is what the Labour party are supposed to represent. I think they have lost sight of this.
A sugestion
One of the problems with the current political scene is that everyone is a professional politician; there are very few people who are capable of completely independent thought as they are worried it will cost them their job. What if we don't allow anyone to be an MP for any party until they were, say, 45?
Even better...
...adopt the Roman model: it's like jury duty. There's a lottery system, and if your number comes up, you serve for whatever the term length is. Like the old saw says, the last people you want governing are the people who want to govern. So make it a duty, and an onerous one at that.
Hey - you could even dock the Chosen Ones' pay until the end of their term, whereupon it's awarded based on performance! Pay their bed and board (and actually PAY it, not say "here's a few grand, knock yerself out, son", so they can't squander the money). Sure, put their dependents up in the MPs' non-palatial dormitory too. Let's be generous.
That way, you'd have no incentive to WANT to govern, but every incentive, once chosen, to work your tits off for the people, because they decide if you get paid at the end. It'd kill off career politics for good!
:-D
So essentially...
What everyone seems to be saying is that we like the old Labour party when it used to mean something? And we don't like new Labour because of the expenses, but we do like Gordon Brown because he's rubbish at PR? And no-one seems to like the Conservatives because essentially they had a good education because their parents' could afford it?
Isn't it all a bit sixth-form?
And let us consider the legacy of the Labour government shall we? Massive country-wide debt anyone? A genuine chance that I won't get to retire until I'm nearly 70? Higher immigration than migration? Widespread distrust of politics from the populace? A widening of the gap between the rich and the poor? Millions in unemployment (though not completely the fault of the government)? Longer waiting times in hospitals? Rise in teen pregnancy rates?
Thanks for that.
In my honest opinion a change of any sort needs to happen. Even if only for four years, because we cannot go on as a country the way we are. And if we want the Labour party to buck their ideas up and return to the trade union definite leftist Labour of old, then what better way than to have a Tory government for them to rail against. It wouldn't take much...
(I do realise I'll probably get ripped for this, but I don't care - it's my opinion, it's not going to change anytime soon)
I have to say...
...I sort of agree with parts of this, especially decrying the classist bollocks about Cameron being unfit to govern because he went to Eton. That's as offensive as saying someone shouldn't be in charge because they're working class. Can you imagine the reaction if someone came on here and said "yeah, I don't trust the poor. I don't want some oik from a comprehensive in Number Ten."? There'd be a riot.
There are many reasons to object to David Cameron. His schooling and upbringing isn't one of them, though, and being working class doesn't make you more of a "real" person.
"I don't want some oik from a comprehensive in Number Ten"
Two words... John. Prescott.
We had SUCH a narrow escape there :-)
I think you're over-simplifying
I don't not like Cameron because he went to Eton or because he's posh. Many PMs went to public school including Labour ones. I do think it perhaps means they haven't had the same educational experiences as most of the population but anyone can learn if they want to.
What I don't like about Cameron is that he rarely says what the Tories will do if they win and, when he does, this is either later "corrected" by a party spokesman or, frankly, is completely at odds with what I want to see.
I don't want a savage programme of public expenditure cuts. I don't want more privatisation of education. I don't want married parents to be treated more favourably than unmarried ones (and I'm a married parent). I don't want a return to mass unemployment and devil-take-the-hindmost culture. I don't want 15% interest rates. I don't want more marketisation in the NHS. I don't want George Osborne anywhere near the Treasury or William Hague anywhere near the Foreign Office. I don't want this country aligned with the far-right groups the Tories sit with in the EU.
Just saying things are wrong now so we need a change without knowing what that change will mean is simply not worth the risk.
actually, I'd go further than that on Cameron
No-one cares that Pink Floyd or Genesis were public schoolboys. Why would they? But if it came out that the Gallagher brothers had gone to Eton they would be quite rightly ridiculed for their working class posturing. I think that's why Cameron is copping flack for this - it's his "I'm a man of the people, we're all in this together" schtick, when he is completely immune to the economic problems the people who he is trying to attract suffer.
Thank heavens for badger_king!
I was almost afraid to post given the vitriol towards the Conservative party - is this really the mood of the country?
Let me just approach the future from a different angle. The "private" sector simply cannot produce enough wealth to support the "public" sector. Is it right that people in the private sector should have suffered losing their jobs, taking substantial pay cuts, on 3 day weeks and seeing their pension pots absolutley decimated over the past 10 years whilst the public sector has been largely immune from this? I am seeing small businessmen and women lose everything because of the economy. I'm fed up of hearing from the public sector "but we pay tax too". Yes you do but this is still has to be funded.
We cannot have two sectors to society, those who work for the state and can have an indexed linked pensions and retire at a decent age and those in the private sector whose pensions are worth less than the amount they have contributed.
The country is in for years of economic misery because the books have been cooked!.
(Retires to a corner and covers ears with hands).
If you're saying...
..."poor old private sector", you'll probably need those hands over your ears. Remind me, please, why the current economic mess is the fault of the public sector...
There's plenty in the private sector suffering...
...not because of anything they've done - they provide goods and services to the public and private sectors - but are suffering because of dire economic conditions that are not of their making either. You are implying that just being in the private sector means that those of us who work in the private sector have helped cause the recession - I think that is a gross over-simplification.
I run a small surveying practice and I haven't been able to pay into my pension for the last 18 months - we've suffered a 40% decline in turnover, which has meant cutting costs wherever possible. I have also taken a massive pay cut, to ease the cash flow and to keep things going. I am now paid far less than an equivalent surveyor in the public sector and have the stress and uncertainty of ensuring that the firm survives, which someone in the public sector would not have to worry about.
Luckily we haven't had to lay anyone off or cut pay or hours, because a couple of staff have left for their own reasons and not been replaced. Those of us who remain are having to work like dogs to keep enough money coming in. We are finding that it is more difficult to get paid by some of our clients, who are also suffering poor cash flow and regrettably, we have had to resort to the Small Claims Court on several occasions, which is an unpleasant business all round.
I'm bracing myself for the public sector recession, because we do quite a bit of work for educational establishments (FE and HE sectors) as well as for local authorities. So far, the public sector has escaped mainly unscathed, but whoever gets into power in May will have to start making painful cuts.
As for my personal politics? I might be in the private sector, but I've always voted Labour (apart from Lib Dem or Green in local elections) and despite the mighty blunders of the current administration, I really do not want to see Cameron and his cronies get into power.
The "private" sector *can* produce enough wealth to support the
public sector, if only it would admit it should. Tax "avoidance" is huge business and costs the country billions, but it is seen as all part of the game. Mark Thomas did some excellent podcasts on this, they're on iTunes, and I defy anyone, left or right not to be enraged when they hear what goes on - it makes the expenses scandal look paltry by comparison. And have you been to any public sector offices recently? - They're awful, joyless buildings to work in. People work in the public sector for security, which has been steadily eroded over the years. People go to the Private sector because the rewards are potentially higher, but should understand the risk/reward ratio. And why is your tax better than anyone else's?
I deal with many small businesses who do work...
... for both the public & private sector. And which of those do you suppose is the worst for late payment? Yup, it's the public sector.
The public sector is as full of work-shy people; those 'out-for-what-they-can-get' as much as the private sector is. Why? Because people are people. Being employed in one sector doesn't make anyone morally superior to the other.
Public sector workers
Have to pay contributions for their pensions....
Not sure what your point is?
Public sector workers typically have much more generous pensions than their counterparts in the private sector, and everyone usually pays something towards it. There are excepttions of course, but generally the public sector wins hands down in the pension stakes.
NHS Pension
In the NHS we currently pay 6% of our monthly salary as a contribution and our employer (i.e. the individual Trust, PCT, SHA that we work for) contributes a further figure equivalent to 14%. The additional sum is not only to cover the cost of each individual's pension, but also to ensure that there is sufficient funding available to cover the Scheme's ongoing commitments.
On retirement our annual pension is 1/80th of the best of our last 3 years' pensionable pay for each year of Scheme membership, up to a maximum of 40/80ths. We also get a lump sum payment which is normally 3 times the yearly pension.
I know that's pretty generous, but it's one of the reasons why I chose to join the public sector 20-odd years ago thereby denying myself the opportunity to earn a mega-salary...
Well, precisely.
That's the trade-off. You can make a good living in the public sector, but you're never going to be a millionaire. The private sector does have that possibility, however remote. People might join a bank or insurance company on a graduate scheme with every intention of being at board level by the time they retire, in which case they'll make crazy money. Nobody becomes a teacher expecting to retire early, fat from the proceeds. Fat from stress and alcoholism, maybe...
The other factor is, of course, that not everybody wants to work in frontline public service. There are difficulties and stresses associated with nursing, being a doctor, being a social worker, being a teacher, which are pretty unique, and which not everyone is up for. Those who are up for it get a generous pension as an incentive, which I don't think is criminal at all.
I think the main problem with Badger_king's comment
is the last line. Politics is too tribal, and decisions should be made on facts not hunches (though I'm as guilty of this as anyone).
It simply isn't the case that waiting times are longer and teen pregnancy rates have risen, in fact the truth is almost exactly the opposite (I've checked the last published figures: lowest waiting lists and waiting times since records began, and 40.4 per K under 17s conceived v 46.6 per K in 1998. New figures are due so this may change soon).
The debt is bad yes, but no-one had any better ideas and the rest of the World copied & called GB a superhero (though I'd have preferred 30k to every taxpayer to get the economy going!).
Politicians of ALL parties behaved badly, but the story was dripped out in a way to make the Govt look worse than the rest by a right wing whistleblower in a right wing newspaper.
Frank Field should have been allowed to properly overhaul the pension system, but it's not like the private sector has managed their pensions any better (isn't that right BA?). And purlease don't trot out immigration...
I wholly agree about the widening of the income gap, but I doubt many are moving to the right because of this issue. IMHO Labour have achieved a lot, just not enough, but the country as a whole isn't as left leaning as me.
Change can be good, govts can stagnate. But I see the change being offered as like changing from The Word to OK - not all change is for the better.
Waiting times / teen pregnancies
The waiting times for people to be seen has gone down. Granted. But that can include being seen by a staff nurse. Waiting for a doctor can still be a very lengthy process. A couple of years ago I thought I'd pulled stitches from having my appendix removed. A lovely nurse saw me 20 minutes after arrival at A&E. No problems there. 3 hours later I saw a doctor. Now I understand they're busy people. But if I genuinely had pulled stitches and was bleeding internally that could have been a very bad state of affairs. As it was I'd just pulled the muscles around the area. But still, they didn't know that, and neither did I.
Let us also not forget the people being kept in cupboards and offices for a couple of days because of lack of bed spaces on wards. That's not healthy either.
And I recommend you visit Portsmouth's commercial road on a Saturday if you believe teen pregnancy rates have gone down. Its disturbing to be honest seeing so many parents younger than me.
Waiting times
Just to clarify, "waiting time" in NHS-speak is how long you wait to see a doctor in a hospital after referral by a GP. This is the measure that I assume JohnH was referring to above. This is now less than 18 weeks for all but a handful of people in England. A somewhat better state of affairs than when it was anything up to 18 months back in the 80s.
The measure you're referring to, badger_king, is your "A&E wait", which should now be less than 4 hours. Without knowing the details of your case, I suspect that you were triaged by the nurse who saw you shortly after your arrival and s/he determined that your need for a doctor was less urgent than others who were in A&E at the same time. This was unfortunate for you, but absolutely necessary to ensure that urgent cases are seen first and to help the smooth running of the department. The NHS could have enough doctors to ensure that everyone who attends A&E is seen by one immediately but I suspect that quite a few voters would object to the tax hike that this would require.
As for teen pregnancy rates, I'm not sure that visiting one road in one city gives the full picture does it? If you come to where I live you'll see very few mums under the age of 30...
UK teen pregnancy...
... averages 5%, but is actually remarkably consistent throughout the UK at between 3 & 5% of girls under 18 (so statistically, if your daughter has 33 girls in her class, one of her classmates will be pregnant before she's 18.)
Aside from Hungary, we have easily the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, and more than twice as high as any other European country of comparable size (France at 2%), which is shameful.
Without going into details, I also work in the NHS, and the accompanying rise in STDs is frightening to behold, whatever sex education we're giving is clearly not doing the job.
Apologies
Mickey, despite appearances to the contrary , the poorly-worded last paragraph of my previous post wasn't disputing the fact that we have a teenage pregnancy problem in the UK. I know that we do.
I was just trying to point out that saying that "there are lost of young mums on this road in this city" wasn't exactly empirical evidence. The stats that you have quoted, on the other hand, quite obviously are.
As I recall
18 years of Tory rule from 1979 to 1997 did not sort out these problems. It also didn't sort out 3 million unemployed and 15% interest rates (which of course were ok for savers, and not so ok for borrowers).
My only conclusion here is that people have short memories.
I wouldn't include banks in the "private sector"
after all they are supposed to be regulated by government bodies. Poor regulatory controls have allowed the excesses of the bank to run amok and the government has been happy to turn a blind eye to take the "benefits" via taxation. In my experience banks have never lent irresponsibly to the small and medium end of the private sector and will only lend with cast iron guarantees in place.
The point I am making is that our public sector is bloated, inefficient and tremendously wasteful and has no concept of how to operate in the real world. It appears almost impossible to be sacked in the public sector no matter how useless you are. February and March sees massive spending of government departments so that they can spend their budget in order that they don't lose it for forthcoming years. "Just send us an invoice deliver the goods later" is the instruction at this time of year.
Hmmmm.
Bloat, inefficiency and waste are not exclusively public sector ills. I've worked for both: as a IT projects monkey in the City, and now as a teacher. I see no more evidence of the things you mention in schools than I did in the City.
By not including banks in the private sector, you're also saying that telecoms, alcohol and tobacco, oil and airlines aren't private sector either. It's the logical extension: all of those industries are heavily regulated, too. It's a bit odd, frankly, to hear the excesses of the banks being blamed on the public sector for not regulating hard enough. That kind of accounting is nearly as creative as the type that got us in this mess in the first place...
Public sector
Is pretty lean due to draconian reductions in central government funding. Local authorities are then not able to make up the shortfall due to capped Council Tax. However, let's not forget who it is that provides front line social care (looking after the elderly and vulnerable) and homelessness services.
Collectively the public sector is far from lean
as the astonishing growth in public spending attests. Whether this is spent on the front-line activities we'd like to think it supports, or a phalanx of Guardian-Jobs-Pages Healthy-Eating-Co-ordinators and the like, is a separate question, but either way we're all paying for it with our taxes.
I don't mean to come across all Daily Mail (I really don't), but I don't see an obvious link between the tax I pay and the public sector services (as opposed to public sector spending): if one goes up I expect the other to, and vice versa. I haven't seen my tax bill dropping much in recent years, whereas I have seen headlines all over the place about sometimes disgraceful cuts in public services: I think we could all guess why that's happening, but I would just like someone in National Government (and I don't really mind who) to sort it out. Is that too much to ask of our prospective MPs?
The City's not the real world!
I think the City is a poor comparator, it is awash with cash and creative accounting so the opportunity arises for vast waste. The problem with most large organisations is that employees and manangers are not using their "own" cash so there is no incentive for efficiency.
It may be an idealogy but our public sector could be reduced by probably a third with no effect on efficiency. I have seen Revenue visits take a week which could be done by any competent accountant in an hour. I have done work for government departments because their own staff couldn't be basically "arsed" to do the work despite having the resources and the training.
As a teacher idiotbear do OFSTED give value for money? In our area schools are pre-warned of a visit and then "staff up" to help obtain a favourable report.
Our local council is about to give a senior executive a £300,000 top up to her pension fund after she resigned. This doesn't happen in the real world.
A local flagship hospital appears to have more nurses than patients so it can be hailed a success. Equally, in another local hospital I have observed two nurses valliantly trying to look after more than twenty very ill and often incontinent patients.
I'm ranting, it's late but if we don't address the public sector problem then there will be severe problems ahead for everyone.
Who said?
"If a man isn't a socailist at 20 he hasn't a heart. If he's still a socialist at 30 he hasn't a brain".
a Tory?
;-)
googling it suggests
you are mixing these two quotes up:
Both quotes are attributed to George Clemensceau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Clemenceau
The second one may be falsely attributed.
When does the the World Cup start?
Oh sh*t - a whole month after the election...
Hang-on, look, kittens...
Aaah!
Voting is Important
What I find fascinating is the way people will pick up on all the bad things about the Labour Government over the last 13 years - and I won't presume to comment on what those are, we'll probably end up disagreeing - but completely forget the good things. But then, I would say that, I'm a Labour Party member.
The 'time for a change' mentality I've been seeing in some quarters worries me, because it makes me think that people are just voting for a change, and that the election is in the hands of people who probably don't understand what they're voting for. And *everyone* should understand what they're voting for. To be honest, I think quite a lot of people who believe that whatever things have gone awry under Labour are going to be fixed by the Conservatives are probably kidding themselves in the main.
Whatever, I think the point about localising your concerns is absolutely the way to go. Look at your MP, and see what they've achieved, both locally and in Westminster. It's not hard to do if you have a bit of a dig around online. Are they doing a good job? Or are they, frankly, not up to scratch? If the latter, look at the alternatives.
Voting is incredibly important - if necessary, vote for the least-worst, if you really feel that way (and if you do, I'd suggest your expectations of politics in general are probably a little unrealistic). But if you don't turn out and vote, it simply makes it all the more likely that a candidate or party you really object to will get in. Let's face it, nobody will take any notice of your opinions if you don't vote - it's *not* a worthwhile protest.
Localising it
Ok, then. My local MP is Sir George Young. He cycles to work and does great work in the community. His office is opposite the church where I work. I've spoken to him before and is a thoroughly nice gentleman. Sarah Evans on the other hand, whilst seemingly a good candidate wants to create council houses in villages instead of in towns. Which no one wants. This is a rural area, and being Hampshire, wants to stay that way. Small villages like being villages. Towns like being towns. Sir George seems to understand this. Mrs Evans apparently does not.
And yes it really does seem to most people that we have to vote for the least-worst, because that's what we've come to expect from politicians over the past 20 years or so.
Well...
... you vote for whoever you think is going to do the better job, and whose outlook most closely matches yours. There are good Conservative MPs, just as there are terrible Labour ones, and vice versa. Despite my own party affiliations, I wouldn't dream of trying to encourage anyone to vote for someone just because of the party they represented. I don't believe being a member of a particular party automatically makes you the best person for the job - you've got to prove yourself to the electorate, whether you're an MP or a PPC.
That
is the correct answer. Thankyou. :)
Indeed
and concisely put too.
Affordable housing
I think you'll find that most villages would like the development of affordable housing for local people (AKA council housing).
But
affordable housing and council housing are not necessarily the same thing, are they?
ok then
housing association housing.
How about...
Monarchy rule as a consideration? Prince Charles seems like a decent bloke.
Time For A Change
Sounds a bit like Things Can Only Get Better.
If I was Chris De Burgh or Status Quo I would have written the song Time For A Change by now and be counting the readies as the royalties roll in come election time.
Have we had the bloody date yet? Need to get the beers in.
The view is Get Out & Vote
So we should but we should also make it plain that we are voting for a local candidate to go and represent us, their local constituents. So don't forget to consult us.
It pisses me off when some smarmy minister points out he/she can do what they please because they have a mandate from the electorate. No you don't you twit. If you want a mandate for all your petty pretty ideas that you dreamt up after a night of lobbyist bankhanders then lets have a referendum. Please while you are at it can we have a right to deselect our sitting MP who is making a hash of things. that includes abuse of power, expenses and trips on piss-up "fact-finding missions".
But there's the eternal question...
Are we electing an MP to act as a representative member of his public from his constituency?
or
Are we electing an MP to present the specific views of his constituents at Parliament?
The two things are very different.
And what about proportional representation?
Many agree that PR is a much fairer way to decide how many MPs there are of the various parties, but it seems that you'd lose at least a certain amount of the "local MP doing a good job for the community" thing if it's a PR-elected person covering a much bigger area.
Don't get me wrong - PR is almost undoubtedly a better way than the first-past-the-post, but it's interesting that it would count against the "local MP" vein of many of the comments on this thread.
It's a disaster
It's a complete nonsense for local government, leading to a huge reduction in choice and accountability. Just say no.
And the system used for the Scottish Parliament, while retaining the local link, sees losing candidates miraculously re-elected.
I could go for Alternative Vote though.
In some cases
We are parachuting in a friend of Euan Blair or thingy off GMTV to somewhere they had to check on Google maps to find its whereabouts in the UK. Then we set them up nicely in a smart place in London, buy their furniture, food and fripperies and wave goodbye until the next election.
I'd give them the whip alright.
British Politics
According to today's press reports, it's a Byers market...
Here till Thursday,
try the fish, etc.
Have an up arrow :)
I'm with the Badger King.
No-one seems to have noticed this, but during his volunteered day out at the Iraq inquiry Gordon Brown used the phrase "there will be further interventions". So looks like there is need for a change, any change sadly.
Massive cuts are on the way whoever gets in. The question then becomes who has the best moral position to carry out these cuts. Its quite obvious that four years of the Conservatives doing this is going to leave the place less safe, and probably a lot less socially cohesive. Bankers are more likely to be even richer, and services like Health will certainly have suffered.
So there's only one choice left, fairly pointless trip to the polling station as it may be.
easy
Labour.
This might help
In late 2008, NZ elected a National (Tory) government after three consecutive terms of Labour governments. The new PM, John Key, is a bright chap, very funny at times and has a nice relaxed style with the media - which I must say is a breath of fresh air. He's popular too. Also, his Cabinet contains some really talented people who plainly care deeply about their roles.
However, these things are now underway :
1. mining in previously protected areas
2. reduction in benefits for solo mums and the unemployed
3. tax rate reductions, particularly for the highest earners
4. slash-and-burn spending cuts in the state sector
I can see the UK voting in a Conservative government and it may well be a nice change for a while. But ultimately they will revert to the type of things that Conservative governments do. Like most of us, I lived under 18 years of that (1979 - 1997) and I don't want any more of it.
If you are a bit old labour
the places you will feel most at home are probably Wales, Scotland and Scandinavia. Lovely places all.
Well, that was interesting.
Watched the debate tonight on C4.
My GOD, Osbourne was pathetic: I hardly heard an actual detail fall from his lips. It was all "I believe" this and "I believe" that, with absolutely no specifics. Dreadful.
Vince was good, but we knew that. The real surprise, for me, was Darling. He acquitted himself very well. I always saw him as a capable chap, but he was a much better communicator than he's given credit for.
I can't think that did the Tories any favours.
Really?
That is interesting. I didn't watch it though I had intended to.
I had assumed Osbourne would have been oiled up and briefed to the point of pain ready to destroy all comers.
I'll have to view it online myself.
I've been giving this some thought
and I can't help thinking party politics are dead and are the problem. Couldn't we just vote for the best leader who can then choose the best available politicians regardless of their party beliefs. That way the great politicians who happen not to be in the party in power have the chance to influence. Example, Vince Cable as Chancellor I'd trust him with my last five pounds but he will never have the chance.
This is a neat gadget
http://www.votematch.org.uk/
I'm well hung
Cons 46%
Lib Dems 45%
Lab 44%
according to votematch.....
I should vote Green but as they're not standing in Wolverhampton NE as far as I know (a Green in Wolverhampton - more chance of a Martian).
So.....
Conservative.... voted for them in 1979. Never again. and they've got their hands on the Council here. First thing they did - closed my local library and an old folks home. Would they be any different at national level. Not at all.
Labour....didn't vote Labour in 2005 as a feeble protest against Iraq. Was thinking maybe I should vote for them again then up pops Blair - weird accent, weird colour.
UKIP.... lol
BNP.... No, no, no, no.
Lib Dem....a lot of what they say makes sense but so wishy washy. Oh what the hell...they have Vince Cable. Lib Dem it is.
See you all on the other side!
Try this one instead
http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/
It doesn't give the loophole of omitting any party you would have thought you could not vote, for even if you agreed with their policies when you saw them without knowing who's they were. To my surprise I turn out Green (though not on the environment). I don't even know yet if they have a candidate here.
(A quick Google shows their local website saying 'We are activley seeking candidates for UK constituencies, including those in Essex.' So that's probably a 'no' then.
Why not apply yourself?
A gravy train of expenses, influence and free trips to exotic locations awaits!
Daily Hate
If anyone was in any doubt what a Tory Government will really be like, here's a handy reminder from today's Daily Mail.
Whatever Dave may present as the party's public face, behind it lurks a miasma of xenophobia, casual racism and petit bourgeois nastiness.
My determination to vote Labour again strengthens with every passing day.
You are Dave Spart...
... and I claim my £5. ;-)
Is this proof
that the Daily Blackshirt is beyond satire?
lurking miasmas!
If you already think 'Call me Dave' is a closet Nazi, how much more strengthening of your determination to vote for Labour do you actually need? Was it wavering for a bit back there?
Lurking Miasmae
"and there'll be three more from them later..."
Dave demonstrates an unfortunate grasp of 70s prog album covers
An observation
The Lib Dems' policies on animal protection are under the "Your family..." section of their manifesto
(their policies on children are under "Your Life...")