I don't think Brian Wilson is overrated. He is touched by something only definable as genius. And I don't use that word very often. I think John Lennon is overrated, but that's nothing to do with him: he is simply held in thrall by too many people as the greatest songwriter that ever lived, which he isn't as far as I'm concerned. But I like a great deal of his stuff very much. And Bowie: well, I like some of his early music; not mad about it. But I'm not sure that he is overrated as such. Noel Gallagher is overrated, in that many people think he can write a decent song. Some even think he's a - that word again - genius. A claim that doesn't even warrant a response.

... almost by definition.

However, if I had to play the game, Springsteen would get my vote.

It is surely the case, is it not, that the most overrated rock stars will also be the most rated rock stars? Fandom is always out of proportion, that's why it's fandom.

Men are always more overrated than women. White men are more overerrated than black men. Dead white men are the most overrated of all.

1. Most successful/critically acclaimed white male guitar bands of recent years: Franz Ferdinand, Arctic Monkeys, Kaiser Chiefs, etc etc. Yawn.

2. Madonna (I take it 'pop' is included in 'rock'?). No musical mind of her own, hence chameleon-like changes. All she's ever done is be very canny, and surround herself with talented people. She's always described as "a good businesswoman", as if that's something to be proud of in the world of music-making.

3. Kylie Minogue. See above.

To be fair, Lennon/McCartney did change the face of popular music. Whether that means that Lennon is overrated and McCartney is overrated, but together they're not, I'm not sure - although Lennon's solo output would suggest that's the case. Mind you, Macca's always been underrated in my book (no doubt due to the reverance given to the 'cooler', overrated Lennon). After this thread, how about a Top Three Most Underrated Rock Stars...?

Without resorting to cliques (something that I'm inclined to do) I refute the fact that Bowie is over-rated with every fibre of my being! He's worthy of such appraisal.

I'll give you the top 3:

1) Kurt Cobain
2) Paul McCartney
3) Lou Reed

By listing them three I'm not purposely being insubordinate, consciously deciding not to submit to the musical presses most lauded beacons, tiers of creativity, titans in the field...It's just my opinion. Lou Reed (potentially great) was sodden and soiled. Cobain was a 13 year old depressive's idea of a Jesus wet dream. Paul McCartney was always going to deprive his child of milk so he could get a bit of tit for himself.

But, to be honest, most musicians in the belly of the ''business'' are over-rated, over-appreciated, and unable to apply cerebral methods into there ''art''.

Than again, what does an 18 year old know?

Pete Doherty is overrated.
Ryan Adams was overrated now most of the press think he is a twat.Personally I think he is alright.
Sex Pistols definitely.
Queen
Led Zeppelin - good but the greatest?
Bon Jovi
Guns 'n' fuckin roses
Stone Roses
Van Halen
Green Day
Stereophonics without doubt
Manic Street Preachers another useless piece of crap

Brian Wilson and John Lennon are as good as anyone who's ever made pop music, even if you'd be hard pushed to muster up a decent compilation of either of them's work post-1970. While there are quite a few people who may be as good but who don't garner as much praise that doesn't necessarily make them "over-rated".
As for Bowie. I'd say the general consensus on him is that he made some brilliant records for a few years in the '70s but you can pretty much take or leave anything he's done for the last thirty years. As a "rating", that's about right.

I think the most undeserved gushing praise tends to go to two types: people who are deemed "cool" by people who "rate" rock stars but are actually pretty crap. Lou Reed and the godawful Patti Smith spring to mind. And new kids on the block who are giddily heralded with perhaps rather overgenerous praise. Anyone at The Word feeling a bit sheepish about the Franz Ferdinand hallelujahs yet? If not a dose of their version of the "over-rated" John Lennon's It Won't Be Long on YouTube should do the trick.

In the end it all boils down to personal taste. I can't for the life of me understand why so many people seem to love Pink Floyd and Bryan Ferry, but, hey!, whatever floats your boat.

Yes, Lou Reed is massively overrated. I'm tempted to think primarily by himself, but I have no proof.

Poor old Ryan Adams. I think he's a major talent, but he's had his fair share of media opposition, which mainly derives from the fact that he made so many albums before he was thirty. At his best he can stand shoulder to shoulder with Neil Young; at his worst he rubs shoulders with Noel Gallagher - a man who isn't even sure how many shoulders giants have.

Oh, I just did. Again.

I'll quote Nik Cohn from 1969 about Dylan

"How do I rate him? Quite simply I don't - he bores me stiff"
"Just the noise he makes, his whine and his sneer, he loses me"

Elvis Costello is another one poking his multi genre nose (and hat) in everywhere,and none of it's any good. But it's not just me - I've hardly ever heard a new band, or any band cite Costello as an influence or reference.

He gets right up my nose, but that's simply becasue I can't stand him. It's not his fault. That's my problem. He's probably a nice chap, but if he came a'rahnd to my house... However, I do hate pop stars that use their popularity to spread messages such as Bono (third world debt), Sting (rainforests), Saint Bob Geldof (famine) and so on. Y'see, my way of thinking is that pop/rock stars should simply get along with the business of writing songs/recording them/making money/driving Rollers into hotel pools/chucking TV's off hotel balconies etc. which is what they do best. At the point when I get the feeling that they are going to try and convert me to something I'm off mate! And so should you!!! Oh, and while he's not exactly a rock star, I hate little Billy Bragg more than any other but I've no idea why! I'm sure he's a nice fellow yadda yadda yadda...

Hang on, wasn't this thread about overrated people? Then I'm going with that bloke from Coldplay.

The MC5..The Stooges, Suicide, Television, etc
All overrated because music writers continually trot 'em out, but nobody bought their records ever (en masse, I mean..I'm sure some of YOU did)..and still don't.

oh ho ho.
forgot about Mr. Boremonger Dylan.

..is the woeful Scott Walker.
His latter recordings are just unlistenable, while his early "classic" work sounds like Matt Munro after a session with "the pills"

.....Ryan Adams.

He, my other half, has just about every album. When I point out he almost always sounds like someone else (ok, not so much on the more country albums). His justification is 'he just doesn't hide his influences'. Hmmmm. He lifts riffs, lines from songs, need I go on!!!

What frustrates me is that Neal Casal is in HIS band - WHAT!? Put up the underrated thread someone, please, Neal is my number one.

ps Ryan does rock live however, even if he is too tight to do an encore.

Totally, utterly overrated. Their members' subsequent solo work bears this out - with the exception of Terry Chimes who (as Word informed me) runs the largest chiropractor practice in Europe. Joe Strummer might have been a lovely bloke but he was the biggest charlatan in the history of rock.

above thus far - apart from Scott Walker, of course.

He's lovely.

To the list I would add The Beatles full stop. It doesn't matter to me who wrote which song or what influence they may or may not have had as a unit or individuals, I just can't stand pretty much any of it.

And underrated ? The great Dion ... with The Belmonts we have one of the very very few doo-wop bands who are always 100% bang in tune. Technically perfect, beautiful, heartbreaking, poignant.

On his own, his songwriting skills are incredible from 'I Was Born To Cry' right through to his Very Trendy 'Born To Be With You' and beyond. Brilliant.

I think this word 'overrated' deserves some examination. I don't think The Clash are overrated - I'm not really a fan, but I don't think that's the same thing. Regardless of what one thinks of The Beatles, I think it's fair to say that at some point they have been overrated. Not now, particularly; but ten years ago, very much so. No one talked about anything else, as if they were the only band in existence. The Beatles' music hasn't changed between 1969 and 1997, nor in the last ten years (well, apart from Love I suppose). The quality of their music remains constant. How they are perceived and rated, however, can change.

I agree with the choice of Dion, in that he deserves more recognition for albums like Born To Be With You; rather than just some doo wop has-been.

SPRINGSTEEN!

Once a jingoist of the Stars and Stripes explosion, now a camp-fire folk singer. Over-rated in both variants.

REM, Captain Beefheart (with or without his Magic Band) and just about every rap artist (over-paid, over-sexed, overrated and over here!!!)

I know some of these have been mentioned already, but just in case some bod rattles up the final scores on the doors. My 3 most over rated are rockers are 'worthy'types that have invented personas for themselves. And seem to have bought in to their own myth making. Just because they don't smile doesn't mean I have to take them seriously

Bob Dylan
Born again folky based on Woody Guthrie, Zimmerman was buried a long time ago but at least he's kept the act going and believes it himself now.

Joe Strummer
First re-invented himself as Woody (hang on, haven't we heard that motif before) then Pub Rocker turned Punk Rocker.
The first few notes of I'm So Bored With The USA are Pretty Vacant - they didn't even bother to disguise it and the clobber is Seditionaries by numbers. Was never convinced by 'Strummer'and don't believe he was either.

Bono
Gone from Tarzan to Gandhi - give him a Nobel Peace prize, just to shut him up.Please!!

and know this Rich...I don't give two bobbins about your petty one upmanship. I was giving an opinion, mate.

Take it up with the next 18 year old.

Anyone who thinks Springsteen is a jingoist must have had their head buried where the sun dont shine for the last 30 years. For the record he was a leading light in the 'vote for change tour' appeared on the amnesty intl tour, has supported the rights of all sorts of dispossessed groups throughout the USA and has openly challenged the madman that runs that beautiful country.He does it in a quiet way without trying to succour fame and notoriety unlike our fabled Irishmen messrs Geldof and Bono.His between song comments when I saw him in New York two weeks ago were highly critical of the US administration - the sad thing is many of his adoring fans cared little for his opinion and are arguably guilty of in his words 'sleepwalking into this mess'.Bono may have good intentions but am not sure he puts his money where his mouth is. I think you will find Bruce does - and whats more he is a much better songwriter!!!!

why doesn't he just move to Benidorm if he's so miserable?

and while we are STILL on the subject...though my previous conviction may have been aimed with sand in my eyes, I think I'm correct in saying that there is nothing worse than a member of the bourgeoisie filling the role of defendant of the underdog.

''Tramps like us''
PAH!

It wasn't alright when Orwell done it, but when the minority sector is fronted by a spokeman who wears a dish cloth round his head its cringe-inducing.

1. BOB DYLAN
A clear winner.
I have to admit he can write some great stories, but that is just how they should remain. He has to spoil things though, by adding that whiney old voice and two tinny chords of despair. Is it any surprise that his songs sound more than passable when covered by proper artists.
2. David Bowie
Lets face it, there's Ziggy and Major Tom and not much else. He's surely more suited to pantomime than rocknroll. Need we mention Tin Machine?
3. The Rolling Stones
They've outstayed their welcome by at least 30 years and still they carry on with delusions of relevance. Pathetic.
4. Prince
Is he rock? Is he funk? Is he soul? He comes out as a brown mess when all three are mixed.
5. Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys
Ba Ba Ba etc pop cheesefluff that has mysteriously achieved some degree of credibility. Furthermore, following his years of excess and insanity, Brian Wilson himself enjoys ridiculous messianic status. Why oh why?
6. Eric Clapton
Official Celebrity Rock God. Plays textbook blues guitar with about as much feeling and invention as a robot. Not a great songwriter either and, he even stole that Layla riff.
7. Bruce Springsteen
Dated blue collar bluster with lots of dirty sax from the diminutive one, and his band of bandana-toting outlaws. He must rank as having one of the worst rock voices ever.
8. The Clash
So political, so street, 'the only true punks' etc....Apart from London Calling and the odd reggae skank, they were just pretentious shouty rubbish.
9. Aretha Franklin
The Queen Of Soul. Revered beyond belief for the average tune that was Say A Little Prayer.
10. Roxy Music
Horrible

In no particular order:

- Iggy Pop (terrible)
- Lou Reed (worse)
- Van Morrison (gone downhill)
- Katie Melua (barely worth mentioning)
- Pistols (irrelevant)
- Clash (alright they did some good things)
- Babyshambles/Doherty (don't understand the attraction)
- Oasis (I don't get it)

I could live without any of them!

btw, I've met Twangathon and he changed allegiance from Mojo to The Word on the basis that Mopjo had too many Beatles cover features......you could ruin his day!

I don't think abuse is all that amusing, either of other users or of the alleged wearers of dish cloths, an item of clothing, I would remind you, which has a rich heritage.Willie Nelson, Ry Cooder, Keith Richards, Joe Strummer and Axl Rose. (I may have gone too far with that last one.) 

I feel like the kid who is singled out by the teacher for getting a bit TOO smarmy.

well, I have been provoked and I have indulged in provocation. Lets just leave it there now.

Another musician I believe to be over-rated.
One Noel Gallagher.

P.S. abuse of others?!
Isn't debasing the status of musicians a type of abuse?

AND isn't that the purpose of this thread?

Everyone seems to have erased the sheer bloody horror of Primal Scream from their collective consciousness. Never forget and never, EVER forgive..
The same with Ian Brown..coasting on the bonhomie of mid-late 30's critics who had their first E to that other heap of dross, the Stone Roses.
U2 - to be quite frank, I think we've all had enough now. Quit while you're going to finish in a dignified position.
Jarvis Cocker - can't sing, can't dance, possessed of a dry northern wit, but so was Les Dawson and I know who I'd rather still have around.
Rufus Wainwright - Sub-"Cabaret" warbling by the musical equivalent of Graham Norton. That he is so beloved by so many thespians (who know nothing about music, and even less about Rock or Pop) is all the evidence needed to indict.
Sonic Youth - in the (exceptionally) conservative world of Indie Rock they are claimed as "Godfathers". Here's to them all sleeping with the fishes then.
Agree with all the aforementioned..Dylan, Reed, Cobain, Strummer, G' N' R,lennon, Van Morrison, Doherty, Libertines, Franz Ferdinand..can I add the Stereophonics?

Cocker is a terrific figure of a man.
I don't believe he is overrated one jot, one wit, one iota, one scintilla, ounce or crumb.

Infact, he deserves more appraisal.

It's all very well pointing the finger at people who were good but have gone off the boil but at least they made a positive contribution at some point, cf. R. Stewart, E. John, D. Bowie, L. Reed et al. What about the ones who've barely made a decent record at all and yet cop all the fame and glory that's going? For sure, Ian Brown and Rufus Wainwright would be on the list but I'd add Lemmy. "Silver Machine" and "Ace of Spades" are excellent but they're a pretty thin return for some 40 years in the boogie woogie business?

Oh, and if this was about pop (as opposed to rock) stars: Victoria Beckham.

...how could Victoria Beckham possibly be regarded as overrated? She's the most famous woman in the world and yet she can't get a record contract because all her solo efforts have met with utter public indifference. She's not rated, let alone overrated.

Too true.
The woman struggles towards being any kind of entity, let alone one who can produce anything outside an insipid stool depleted by gastric regurgitation. That's how these women stay in the boundaries of a knuckle-length waist.

....I got lost trawling through the preceding bile, but if Bono's not there can I claim him? His ability to turn out two or three decent songs every five years or so is far outweighed by his inability to stop behaving like a bollock.

...I'm going to bring up Bono again. Although I'm fairly sure the story mentioned on last week's podcast is an urban myth, it's still a fantastic story which deserves to be often repeated.

Also, the thread seems to be concentrating on critically over-rated, rather than commercially i.e. by the public. As a student, I seem to encounter an awful lot of conversations that follow this path:

Them: I've got a bit of an odd taste in music, me. Indie mainly though
Me: Such as...?
Them: Oh, you know, crazy stuff: The Kooks, The Fratellis, Razorlight, stuff like that

I mean, I know they're just flavour of the month, but have you ever actually *listened* to any of it?

I was a diehard Jam fan in the late '70s/early '80s and The Clash were "the enemy" i.e. the chief rivals in a football team kind of way.
While The Jam came across as completely natural and true: small town/suburban types making songs about small town/suburban life for small town/suburban kids, The Clash were, by contrast, transparently fake and contrived. And you always got the impression Jones and Strummer would have been much more at home in Mott The Hoople.
But then again aren't most artists, to some degree, contrived and "fake"?
I think it‘s silly and pointless to pretend The Clash didn't make some great records and weren't a great rock band - one of the best.
And Joe Strummer was, by all acounts, a charming, civilised, lovely fella whose political beliefs, however barmy, were sincere.

Meanwhile back in '79

i just wanted to make that point. Plus even though i have never listened to Ryan Adams, i find him over-rated. Or he was a few years ago. In another magazine.

Overrated - Read the whole thing and they weren't mentioned anywhere, one or two good songs but really don't understand the fuss, on the other hand are they just of their time?

Understand the Ryan Adams thing -personally I'm a fan but think he's better when he stops overrating himself

...nominate this band? I actually rather like them and in some ways this contradicts my previous post but here goes: The Eagles. I read an interview with Messrs Henley and Frey recently in which they candidly admitted that their 1970's albums were basically four or five songs "deep" or in other words they came up with a few decent songs, simply couldn't be arsed to work any harder and filled up the space with some old filler. There's a terrific CD's worth of Eagles songs but that leaves an awful lot of filler in it's wake.

On top of that, they had the cheek to recruit Joe Walsh and neuter him (remember Barnstorm and his solo work anyone?) and they've also managed to wazz off and drop the two best musicians in the band (Bernie Leadon and Don Felder).

Don Henley's solo work, though, is of the highest order so I'll excuse him.

In a late 80s music show I recall Phil Oakey succinctly pointing out that if Talking Heads were from Wakefield nobody would have ever heard of them. Their popularity and cachet merely being a product of where they were from. Terribly over-rated band and interesting that the current revival of all thing 80s has passed them by. For a reason. Also failing the Wakefield Test I think would be Björk. OK, you're from Iceland, but you can't sing and have nothing to say and no amount of warbling will convince me otherwise. Get thee to Wakefield and see how you get on there.

I can't see how David Bowie could be regarded as over-rated as many of his songs stand for themselves but have you ever, ever, met anyone who likes or even admits to buying anything by Tin Machine?

On that subject are there are other bands of reasonable renown who just disappeared off the radar?

Supergrass are massively under-rated.

Actually, while we're on the 'Super' tip, so are SFA. Rings Around the World is the closest thing to Pet Sounds in terms of invention and sheer beauty that I've heard.

Bang that.

p.s. people who don't think that Noel Gallagher writes great songs are just showing off. Or they've got sperm in their ears. If you don't like Oasis, you don't like pop music. Grow up.

If you don't like brainless repetitive overlong meaningless hollow derivative lyrically nonsensical idiotic rubbish you don't like pop music

It's not snobbery or inverted snobbery (although I fear I'm too stupid to know what you mean by this), but if you don't like hooks, melodies and a good bit of nonsensical gibberish to accompany then you're discounting a whole lot of pop music.

"if you don't like brainless repetitive overlong meaningless hollow derivative lyrically nonsensical idiotic rubbish"

Apart from "over-long" you could also level most of your charges at Girls Aloud or early Beatles.

p.s. you clearly have sperm in your ears

Point taken Mr Hare about Talking Heads, I was perhaps stretching a point, they did have some good songs but I liked Phil Oakey's soundbite although maybe he had a chip on his shoulder about being from SHEFFIELD.

I was hoping this blog thing wouldn't degenerate into projecting insults as so many do but Chimney Singing Crow has let the side down. Why do people feel free to be outrageously offensive to anybody/everybody who disagrees? I hope they wouldn't talk to people like that down the pub, or at work. Maybe they don't go to pubs, or work. I quite like Oasis as it happens but I can see why people don't. It's not that important. Bye y'all.

Steely Dan have always sounded way too clever-clogs and muso to these ears. Oh and I don't get those cheeky Arctic Monkeys either - Brian Glover backed by a 5th form Franz Ferdinand tribute band doesn't appeal.

Ever so slightly off topic here but Daily Bumbler's numerous posts reminded me of someone but I couldn't quite put my finger on who…until now. Is he Leonard Sachs' 80s love-child?

Apologies, dear boy.

"Outrageously offensive" clearly means something else from where I'm standing - rather subjective. No intention to cause offence or harm.

If you think that's offensive you should come and spend the day at my place of work, or pub... it's far, far worse.

Steely Dan always sound way too clever-clogs and muso to these ears. Oh and I don't get those cheeky Arctic Monkeys either - Brian Glover backed by a 5th form Franz Ferdinand tribute band doesn't appeal.

Ever so slightly off topic here but Daily Bumbler's numerous posts reminded me of someone but I couldn't quite put my finger on who…until now. Is he Leonard Sachs' 80s love-child?

Steely Dan always sound way too clever-clogs and muso to these ears. Oh and I don't get those cheeky Arctic Monkeys either - Brian Glover backed by a 5th form Franz Ferdinand tribute band doesn't appeal.

Ever so slightly off topic here but Daily Bumbler's numerous posts reminded me of someone but I couldn't quite put my finger on who…until now. Is he Leonard Sachs' 80s love-child?

Steely Dan always sound way too clever-clogs and muso to these ears. Oh and I don't get those cheeky Arctic Monkeys either - Brian Glover backed by a 5th form Franz Ferdinand tribute band doesn't appeal.

Ever so slightly off topic here but Daily Bumbler's numerous posts reminded me of someone but I couldn't quite put my finger on who…until now. Is he Leonard Sachs' 80s love-child?

Steely Dan always sound way too clever-clogs and muso to these ears. Oh and I don't get those cheeky Arctic Monkeys either - Brian Glover backed by a 5th form Franz Ferdinand tribute band doesn't appeal.

Ever so slightly off topic here but Daily Bumbler's numerous posts reminded me of someone but I couldn't quite put my finger on who…until now. Is he Leonard Sachs' 80s love-child?

Errr...sorry for the speech impediment. I'm a Luddite, guilty as charged.

Leonard Sachs love child?
We havn't been aquainted.

Whats he like?
and who is he?

Oh, the Whistle Test veteran of grandiloquent diction?

I must seem like the Spod Titan of the under 20s.
Hopefully I don't match the archetype in appearance.

Me Me Me

Even if I am still an ugly fucker.

Now there's an idea for a show, young Bumbler - Hepworth can rekindle his role on the Whistle Test from ye olde days of yore and elaborately introduce various 70s/80s acts, whilst an audience dressed for the occasion in suitable garb singalong to 'Freebird', 'All I want for Christmas is a Dukla Prague Away Kit' and 'New Rose'. It's a winner.

Never mind as a musician. The single most overrated human being who ever walked the earth.

Paul Bloody Weller. Awful voice. Terrible songs. No sense of humour. Always chewing gum. There. Said it.

She would have to go on the list - bought the first cd because I loved the song for the Orange ad - none of the other songs wre a match for this one song - how often does that happen?
Anyway Jude in your esteemed mag gave the second album an astounding review as did many other music critics.So what did I do? Only went out a bought it. What a complete and utter load of drivel!!! Not only are the songs infinitely inferior to anything on the first album they are also twice as long - words meaningless - tunes nowhere to be heard - we have been conned and Judes review should be punished by sending her to the gallows!!!

I think most of the usual suspects have been mentioned i.e
Van Morrison, Pete Doherty (society must be going downhill if he is even rated at all), The Rolling Stones, All of Emerson/Lake/Palmer etc but I would like to mention just 3 more:
1. Ozzy Osbourne (ok in Black Sabbath but has he done anything of any worth on his own? And don't even mention his wife!)

2. Mark.E.Smith of The Fall (being a cult figure usually translates to: Your'e shit!)

3. Not strictly a rock star but Enya makes me want to smash the radio it's so wishy washy.