Entertainment For Lively Minds
When You Know They've Peaked REM
Posted by Gooner1050 on 15 September 2011 - 12:48pm.
It’s often said that recording Artists make their best music in the early part of their careers, say the first two albums. While that may be true for many (The Strokes – Is this It, Van Morrison - Astral Weeks, The Band – Music from big Pink, etc) it is not always the case.
I was listening to R.E.M the other day (Automatic for the People) and I cast my mind back to the first time I heard the album, and the fact that I'd thought to myself – they’ll never make a better album than this – they’ve peaked.
As far as I’m concerned I was right (I would say that I know!). Any one else care to share a similar experience and has time proved them right or not (no cheating please!)
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Manic Street Preachers - The Holy Bible
Knowing that surely, never again could JDB create spiky, visceral music to fit and shoehorn and mould around Edwards pain. The sound of a band completely clinging to the edge of a cliff. Thrilling.
The Holy Bible
Yup, they were definitely at the peak of their powers. It's probably the most powerful album I've ever heard. So angry, so sad.
Absolutely.
And what a thrilling place the peak of their powers is. I don't think any band has ever worked quite the way the Manics used to, before Richey went, or at least not to such an extreme.
I love that record more than I can possibly express.
And has any band ever worked so hard
to shit on their legacy? An awesome album followed by increasingly tepid, limp pastiches.
Have you tried
"Journal For Plague Lovers"? All-Richie lyrics, Steve Albini production, as a huge Holy Bible fan I love it.
I tried
I really did. There was a glimmer but no more I'm afraid
MSP
I don't think *increasingly* tepid is fair. Their post-Richey work has been up & down. Their last two albums were great, in my opinion.
They could never have carried on with the whole Holy Bible shtick post-Richey, because it would've been fakery. The Intense Humming of Hoovers!
Seconded
.(oh and have an up arrow because I know you love them so much)
Fair play
I was maybe a little hasty with my put down but I've just felt so disappointed with everything since. One of the best experiences I had watching a live band was seeing MSP introduce Archives of Pain. One of the most disappointing was when they did Royal Correspondent. Same show.
Thrilling
This remains the best band portrait I've ever seen.
What a band. A genuine bunch of outsiders. Intelligent, furious, beautiful, contradictory and loud. Gah, why isn't the Holy Bible on my iPod? I need it now!
Just bought it on the strength of this thread
I shall report back in due course!!
Oooo.....I hope you got the 10 year anniversary edition
With the US mix. Sounds even better.
Valid point Gooner - after
Valid point Gooner - after Automatic they were never going to scale the same heights. That said, a few people probably thought the same after 'Out of Time'.
Got to say though, my favourite REM album remains Murmur, their first!
A close second for me
but arguably the greatest debut of all time Paul. I'm sure that threads been done!
A while back...
...I did a fun thing. I went back to "Chronic Town" and listened to all of R.E.M.'s catalogue from then until "Up". I'd always felt like "Murmur" was right up there with my favourites, and I still love it, but what I found really surprised me.
With each album, you can hear them getting stronger and stronger - quite incrementally at first. "Murmur" is gorgeous, then for "Reckoning" the songcraft just notches up a little and the production improves, then on "Fables" Michael's voice becomes clearer and stronger, then on "Pageant" that sound is just that bit more saturated and colourful - until suddenly, WHOOSH! "Document"! It's the most astonishing step-change. You suddenly hear them turning from fabulous indie cult heroes into proper global contenders, and it's thrilling.
My favourite R.E.M. record is - slightly controversially - "Out Of Time", although I do agree that "Automatic" is their most accomplished, essential if-you-own-nothing-else classic. But basically everything from "Murmur" to "Up" is brilliant, with almost no weaknesses apart from the odd track here and there ("Monster" having more filler than most. But it's still a fantastic album by anyone else's standards).
Anyway, I'll shut up now. I love R.E.M.
I agree about the consistent quality
but am sort of the reverse in my view on their tracjectory. With each release there's a bit less mystery and each one is a little more prosaic. But then maybe I need to do the full catalogue listen thing. I don't necessarily expect diminishing returns following increasing popularity I should point out, though that often seems to happen.
That's a great post Bob.
I must say I'm surprised but I agree with you 100%. Also, you're correct about The Holy Bible too. I used to have that on picture disc back in the day. Weirdly I love listening to it on the rare occasions when I go jogging.
You big ol' Monster apologist!
C'mon now, it's not any good. Two tracks are keepers, the rest landfill.
And do you think everything up to and including Up is brilliant, or until Up?
Including.
And Monster? It's got What's The Frequency, Crush With Eyeliner, Tongue, Bang and Blame, I Took Your Name and Let Me In, all of which are fucking ace. There's no actual shit on it at all, but the rest of the tracks are a bit meh (Strange Currencies is better than meh, I guess, but not great).
I think 6 tracks of ace and 6 of OK is a pretty good strike rate for a ninth album.
Four words
New Adventures In Hi-Fi.
These things are certainly
subjective - we'll have to disagree busker!
Hmmm...
... AFTP is possibly their commercial peak and NAIHF an artistic peak - my favourite's Reckoning.
Ten
Yep. It's all about opinions.
For me, REM are probably the only band to deliver 10 great albums straight off the bat (every album from Murmur to New Adventures).
Agree
the 10 album run is a great achievement by any musicial standards. I would also be tempted to throw in UP also as a great worthwhile experiment post Bill Berry leaving.
As always the answer is David Bowie
Or the Fabs. I do really love REM so I am not trying to piss on anyone strawberries but they didn't twist the world's nads for anything like as long
NAIHF
Well said. New Adventures is by far my favourite REM album too.
Agreed-Great Album
One of my favourites as well, after Automatic For The People.
I note you are a Gooner
Arsenal - The Untouchables season....
also - and I know they are not too popular here - U2 with Achtung Baby
[waits round for the one liners]
Many indie bands (and others)
would give their barre chord finger to have an album like Achtung Baby in their back catalogue ... and swimming harder agin the Massive current, here's a tune from Pop:
Popmart was good
The only U2 songs I like came form Popmart. Cannot stand the rest of their sorry output.
Ouch!
Yes a Gooner for my sins!. I think you refer to the "Invincibles" season Big Jim. A warm, but sadly distant, memory now!
I Can't comment on Achtung Baby. I gave up after The Joshua Tree (nothing against U2 as such, just got busy bringing up kids!).
yep I was
sorry for bringing back the memories
lol - the memories are fine
it what has followed since that I'm struggling with!!
I too have fond memories
Especially of being at White Hart Lane as we clinched the title
Man......
I would have loved to have been there - I'd have been only 9 years old but can still remember (albeit a little hazily) the following morning (wasn't allowed to stay uo too late in those days and besides - coverage wouldn't have been that great!)- I bet that still hurts the mob down the road!
I was referring to 2004
I was only three in 1971
2002 Old Trafford
2002 Old Trafford. I was there! Brilliant, brilliant night.
2011 Old Trafford. I wasn't there. Thank god.
I was at both of those
And Old Trafford 2001. 6-1 ouch!
Just a boy
lol - Only 3!!
Off Topic
But I would appreciate it if you could royally stuff us this Saturday. Give us a fighting chance of getting shut of the woeful Steve Kean.
Off my chest now. As you were.
By the way, Smiths, Strangeways...oh. Well, out on a high!
Looks like...
you're stuck with him for a bit longer then...
You mean...
Kean or Wenger!? - A real low point - no ofence to any BR fans but should have been at least 3 ahead at half time and "blow -up" again in the 2nd. Good luck to Blackburn but my beloved Gooners are in the SHIT!
Bugger
Why on earth did we have to play Arsenal when they are so bad?! Any other season...
Some people
are never happy...
Monster
said more to when it came out than AFTP. Made more sense as an album too.
I seem to be a man alone in that point of view though.
In every REM discussion I say this...
If REM had a compilation of their greatest songs "since they became crap/were past their peak" etc, it would be the best album of the past 20 years.
Do a compilation from M, NAIH-F, U, R, ATS, A, CIN...
AFTP will be remembered as their high water mark, I have no doubt.
Three Legged Dog
is the name of a compilation I produce for people who say 'R.E.M. have been shit since the drummer left'.
Tracklisting is:
Living Well is the Best Revenge
Mine Smell Like Honey
Until the Day is Done
Supernatural Superserious
That Someone is You
Suspicion
Bad Day
Walk it Back
Mr. Richards
At My Most Beautiful
Alligator_Aviator_Autopilot_Antimatter
Falls to Climb
Could have a couple more on, but I made it less than 45 mins, as all single albums should be.
The naysayers have all changed their minds so far.
Good work Jon
And yes that is a great album, but my "Three Legged Dog" (great title) would have only 3 tracks from yours (UTDID, BD, FTC). Just reinforces my original point.
Bad Day
Hope
It Happened Today
A Sad Professor
Beat a Drum
Final Straw
Horse To Water
Discoverer
Aftermath
Why Not Smile
Until the Day is Done
Falls to Climb
And that leaves out the overplayed singles like Daysleeper, Leaving New York, Imitation of Life.
And yet
neither of you have included this:
(The Great Beyond)
Until The Day Is Done
The chosen post-Berry best of. As selected by Hercule Badger King.
1. I'm Gonna DJ
2. Bad Day
3. Daysleeper
4. Until The Day Is Done
5. At My Most Beautiful
6. I've Been High
7. All The Way To Reno
8. Living Well Is The Best Revenge
9. Imitation Of Life
10. Leaving New York
11. The Great Beyond
12. Red Head Walking
13. Mine Smell Like Honey
14. Falls To Climb
Sigh.
I'M GONNA DJ?! I'M GONNA DJ?!?!?
Really? What, REALLY?
I'M GONNA DJ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
*implodes from sheer incredulity moments before being euthanised by the punctuation police*
haha
but of course
I know its crap. But I like it. And it annoys nearly all REM fans ever. Even more reason to like it. :)
Suede
After they arrived with their astonishing debut, they created something epic and beautiful in Dog Man Star. Listening to Still Life for the first time, I remember thinking they would never be better. I have no recollection of whether I already knew Bernard Butler had left though, which would have been something of a massive hint.
Was I right? Sort of: that version of Suede was finished, but a new, glossy, chart-friendly Suede 2.0 was just around the corner with arguably greater impact on contemporary culture, and a few stonking tunes.
Good band
But not time defining surely? And did anyone outside England ever buy their records? I'm not trying to be snide just to think aloud that they didn't bend any world gravity out of shape
Does that matter?
The question is, was Dog Man Star the peak of their career or not? Not 'did they define an era?'.
Automatic is rubbish...
their worse album by a country mile...well, no sorry forgot about Reveal and Around The Sun for a minute. Accelerate, Up and Collapse all better but peak for me was New Adventures, love that album!
...oh Wire recently peaked
about 35 years into their career with Red Barked Tree...!
They Certainly Did
If Red Barked Tree is not the album of the year, it'll certainly be near the top for me.
Van Morrison's an interesting one - I'd take the mid period Van of Into The Music, Beautiful Vision, Inarticulate Speech Of The Heart, Poetic Champions Compose and No Guru No Method No Teacher over any of his other albums.
Wire
don't "peak".
They are a plateau.
Or, at very least, a range at very high altitude.
Madness
Another one who peaked late with The Liberty of Norton Folgate
"What's The Story, Morning Glory"
Oasis stumbled into greatness before they'd even finished learning to walk, and after that I could only see two likely outcomes: Quo-like repetition or a charlie-addled stab at posterity.
Even though their creative demise seemed inevitable, I never anticipated that they'd sign off with an album that manage to sound like both options at once.
Loving your work
Wonderful characters, really funny, occasionally great racket, no talent at all
One
never really knows when a band has peaked, insomuch as these things are buried in subjectivity.
All we have is a slow, personal creeping feeling of dread as every sucessive album means a little less than one in particular.
I'm sure REM could still make a great album, the fact i've had a deteriorating interaction with them since the late eighties is my problem.
In Rainbows
Radiohead
I thought when I found myself playing this over and over they'd struggle to top it. Up until then there was a sense of another great album in them. But with this it was hard to see where they could go from there - brilliant though it is it's kind of like they painted themselves into a corner. I think it better than OK Computer. I like the last one but it's not in the same league really. Maybe I'll be proved wrong - hope so!
peaks
Agree with REM Automatic for the People. played it for a year after it came out. Great record.
My other peaks
The Beatles - Revolver (or Sgt Pepper)
U2 - The Joshua Tree
Radiohead - OK Computer
Pink Floyd - the Wall
The Stones - Exile or Sticky Fingers
Led Zeppelin - Led Zep IV
Deep Purple - Machine Head
Motorhead - Ace of Spades
AC/DC - Highway to Hell (though Back in Black is a close tie)
60s Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited
70s Dylan - Blood on the Tracks
Jethro Tull - Heavy Horses
Queen - Sheer Heart Attack
Thin Lizzy - Jailbreak
The Who - Who's Next
Rush - Moving Pictures
Black Sabbath - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Iron Maiden - No of the Beast
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Aerosmith - Permanent Vacation
Very good list...
but Permanent Vacation? Nah... it's got to be Rocks.
Permenant Vacation?
Have you been sniffing some of Tyler's secret stash. as PC says it's probably 'Rocks' but whatever is its in the 70's.
And we settled on Twitter the other day that 'Astral Weeks' is shite
I suspect gooner
that you are about 40 years old. Correct?
I wish!
I'm the grand old age of 49, Niscum - why did you think 40?
Aaah, because
I remember people round about 20yo getting big into REM at the time of AFTP and folk tend to be most blown away by what they first hear and don't get the impact of the earlier albums. Personally I got into REM in the mid 80s living in the US and rate their earlier stuff higher. Both murmur and Life's Rich Pageant.
Murmer
Agreed! - As I said earlier it runs AFTP close - a great debut album!
R.E.M - it's really quite simple
- everything from "Chronic Town" to "Automatic for the People" = excellent
- everything from "Monster" to "Reveal" = pretty good
- everything from "Around the Sun" onwards = disappointing
I would agree except...
...I really think their latest (Collapse into Now)is at least up there with the 'pretty good' and verging on 'excellent'.
Agree...
surely better than Reveal at least?
Other things that are "better than Reveal":
Cholera
Granny porn
Monkeys flinging their own poo
Finding that you're pregnant with a two-headed fish
Unemployment
Kenzie from Blazin' Squad's solo album
Blood in your stool
End Times
(This is an edited list. The real one is much, much longer)
The best summation thus far.
The best summation thus far. Lifes rich pageant is my favourite; I genuinely believe they are one of the best ever bands, certainly the best of 80s. They do not fully get their due for some reason.
You got the deluxe Life Rich Pageant
that came out the other month? Highly recommended
No, I have a copy on vinyl,
No, I have a copy on vinyl, probably bought in the late 80's. I have the Murmer reissue, which is nice but not sure it really adds to my enjoyment of the album.
I know it's only a bit of fun,
or the chance to spark a discussion, but I'm never sure where the somewhat condemnatory aspect of these threads comes from. It's like 'must try harder'. For some reason, Athens' finest seem to come in for this criticism on here regularly.
REM are, by common consent, one of the most significant American bands ever. So they did their critically lauded work in their first few albums, then had huge commercial success while still largely maintaining their credible appeal, then released a series of albums that were a shadow of their best work but which still contained a fair few gems. Who knew?
Fair point
But isn't this just the traditional late to the thread disapproving of the thread post? Don't mean to be unpleasant, it's just something that often happens which I've observed as a long time member here. ;)
For the record
and to clarify - my original post was not intended to criticise REM (who, I agree with you, are one of America's finest)but was a general observation regarding when you know a band has peaked.
I have had similar experiences with other bands - the purpose of the post was to spark discussion with other like minded people who have had a similar feeling concerning other bands / artists.
As I said earlier - these things are very subjective!
No offence intended.
It's just something I've noticed that REM seem to come in for. Not a huge deal.
None taken Dougie!
Rock on!
I know what you mean
However isn't it a kind of compliment that people care enough to be disappointed in a REM album? After all, who gives a monkeys about the procession of dire Rolling Stones offerings since the 70s?
Great point
And at least you can tell REM keep trying.
Ditto!
See Above!
Or at least...
...they did. :-(
A wise man...
...once said that
Listening to REM's recent offerings is like visiting your kids in jail (or words to that effect)
Can't rememeber who that wise mad was. Not me - much too witty.
And
complete wrong headed lazy ballshine
Victims of their own success...?
I too have noticed how REM seem to come in for a particular kicking regarding their post-peak output, their last effort included (I'm looking at you David Hepworth)- but I do feel people now listen with a certain mindset. 'Collapse into Now' is one of their best albums ever - there, I've said it. Oh, and Automatic for the People isn't as good as Out of Time - there, I've said that as well. The real clinkers are Up and Around the Sun, IMHO...??
Quite!
Apart from the clunkers you define - for me they're Reveal and Around the Sun. Up, for me, has many fine moments.
But to your original point Nigel, I quite agree - if another, brand-new band had put our Accelarate or Collapse Into Now, music journalists - to a man and woman - would type 'This is the kind of album REM should be making'.
They are now way past their dip in quality, but can never get past it in terms of critical acclaim. Maybe that's for the best, in that I might be able to see them in the Hammy Odeon rather than a stadium next time they hit Britain.
Up is a fab record.
I just sort of wish they'd stop trying to rock. They're not terribly good at it any more, and I'd be interested to hear them try something a bit more Out Of Timey.
"They're not terribly good at it"
One word - Accelerate
It rock like a bastard.
It rocks like the R.E.M. edition of Guitar Hero.
I know you rate it, DFB, but I think it's a terribly ordinary - and at times embarrassing ("I'm Gonna DJ", anyone?) - record. And whose idea was Jacknife chuffing Lee? Horrible sound.
Supernatural Superserious is a decent enough effort, but no more than a solid B.
Just to say...
...that obviously I wrote this before I heard about the split. I don't disagree with myself, though.
Still. Gutted.
I hope you're all bloody pleased with yourselves!
Now then, does anyone else agree that Westlife have peaked of late?
Definitely
As have Take That and everything by Pete Docherty.
Collapse Into Now
is a great album & their best for a while. I think they still had it but their past excellence overshadowed everything they did, however good it was. I'll miss them anyway.
Echo & The Bunnymen & New Order
2 of the 80's finest without a doubt but should have called it a day after Ocean Rain & Technique respectively.
You know when it's time to knock it on the head...
... when your last five or six albums have all been "a real return to form"
yeah
base your career on the scribblings of lazy journalist slags