Entertainment For Lively Minds
When Should They Have Stopped?
Listening to the last Springsteen album Working on a Dream recently. It's enjoyable enough, but let's face it it's not The River. Neither was Magic. Or the one before that. And Bob's last one, well same again. I ducked out of the last U2 after a Spotify listen, but we know how hard it is to kick the habit of buying the next one by artists we love. A significant amount of my collection is taken up with albums by great great artists that have, to put in kindly, lost something. We will them on to get it back, and maybe for a track or two, they can. But experience tells me that once you've lost it, it doesn't really ever return. So let's free up valuable mental space on the shelves for new artists by playing when should they have stopped, to have, Cantona-like, gone out at the very top of their game, with their last recorded work the equal of what went before.
Here's my starters for artists whose later work echoes their best without escaping the law of diminishing returns
REM - Automatic for The People
Rolling Stones - Exile on Main Street
Bruce - The River
New Order - Technique
David Bowie- Scary Monsters
I'll leave Bob Dyland and Richard Thompson to others...and also the debate as to whether the Beatles have the perfect body of work
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As you have said
Richard Thompson. He is incapable of producing poor quality work.
His weaker albums would provide a tough bench mark for anyone. The only artist I have an automatic 'buy' response to, and he's never let me down.
As for stopping, I would submit REO Speedwagon, 10 minutes into their first rehearsal, and Bonio and Chums outside the musical instrument shop circa 1976.
U2
The Joshua Tree
Can I just say...
The Stereophonics should never had started?
They should certainly have started..
..but in my opinion, probably ended after Performance & Cocktails.
Agreed
Nothing wrong with the first two albums. Word Gets Around still achieves regular playing in this place.
But after the second it all became a bit formulaic, repetitive, bland even
Give Bruce a Chance!
Surely Tunnel Of Love is worth sticking around for? For my money it's actually a lot better than The River. REM may not have topped Automatic For The People, but I remain very fond of Up. As for Bowie, fair enough, you could afford to take a long holiday after Scary Monsters, but, after a false dawn with just about every album (and I have them all!), you could rejoin the party with Heathen, which really was his best since Scary Monsters, and well worth the wait.
I think Bowie
began rediscovering his mojo from Tin Machine onwards, but really was back in the zone with 1. Outside, which has the quintessential qualities of 'classic Bowie' - esoteric ideas, experimental approaches and great songwriting.
1. Outside / hours / black tie white noise
Are very hard to love. They all have their moments, but these are the least favourite Bowie selections in the sett.
But to say he should have quit is madness. Admittedly his 80s stuff wasn't as album orientated as earlier, but he created so many superb singles.
And this is an often overlooked gem from the largely hated "Never Let Me Down".
A die-hard writes
To expand a little on what I said above, there are no Bowie albums which don't have at least a couple of great songs, even including Tonight and Never Let Me Down. And actually I am very fond of Black Tie White Noise. However, I'd still maintain that, unlike everything after Scary Monsters, Heathen was a great album, worthy of comparison with some of his best 70s stuff, and that is high praise.
A die-hard writes
To expand a little on what I said above, there are no Bowie albums which don't have at least a couple of great songs, even including Tonight and Never Let Me Down. And actually I am very fond of Black Tie White Noise. However, I'd still maintain that, unlike everything after Scary Monsters, Heathen was a great album, worthy of comparison with some of his best 70s stuff, and that is high praise.
As usual, the answer is
you can't have quite enough Bowie
Do you think
we've heard the last of the great Dame, or is he quietly working away on new material?
I'm hoping it's the latter, but I'm getting the feeling that he's retired gracefully. I just wish he would come amongst us one last time to let us know.
he always has
done things with a little more class than your average rock star - so he may well have decided to repair to the library to be in the company of a good book and a glass of wine.
He has not been in the best of health, I believe - so whatever he decides to do, I wish him well.
Heathen
Is a very very good album. I think that Reality is fairly good too. I'm sure he has quite a few in him yet. Could do with one right now come to think of it.
I second you on up
it is an excellent album. Not as instantaneous as Automatic, or perhaps as universal, but still really brilliant.
I am not a fan of Monster really but that also has some great songs I am really glad exist.
And also one of my favourite REM albums, maybe my favourite, came out after Automatic:
NEW ADVENTURES IN HI FI!
Could the world have lived without Ebow The Letter? Perhaps. But I wouldn't be as complete as I am without it. Be Mine is one of the most moving love songs of all time. The arrangement of Leave is so good it is endlessly used as backing music for dance, adverts, anything that's going.
New Adventures in Hi Fi
I was about to post that I think this is far better than AFTP, but you've beaten me to it.
I think I prefer Monster to AFTP as well.
Agree on "Hi-Fi"
- not a huge fan of REM but it's my fave of theirs and "Leave" far and away my favourite track of theirs
I can't believe this ...
New Adventures is one of the most underrated albums of the 90s and possibly my favourite REM album. Just never knew anyone else felt the same way!
BTW, from Murmur ... to New Adventures. has any other band/artist had such a consecutive run of great albums? Ten, yes, count 'em. Ten.
Of course, they're a bit rubbish now.
Count me in too
New Adventures is a cracker - How the West..., Leave, Be Mine, So Fast, So Numb, Electrolite - all good.
I don't think it is better than or as consistent as AFTP (it doesn't have Find The River on it for a start), but I would say I prefer it.
it's just so hard to say with seriously good artists
I am with all in favour of New Adventures; I think Leave is fascinating with the its intially unlistenable siren/alarm all the way thru the track only to find that it bizarrely works and that the song is magisterial. The problem with longevity is that it's the old Costello line about 'how many times can you jump out of the cupboard befroe someone gets suspicious or someone gets discovered?' I find that when you mix up an artist's output on the ipod then suddenly more recent songs are given their due. So, "At My Most Beautiful' now sounds entirely of a piece with more lauded early material.
I think Springsteen's work is not really any different (worse) from his earlier work. I like some songs, don't like others. It took me years to enjoy Meeting Across the River off Born to Run. Think "Girls in Their Summer Clothes' is one of his best songs ever. Love the new lush arrangements. I really liked all of Devils and Dust. By contrast, I would be happy never to hear I'm a Rocker, Jackson Cage, Cherry Darling again - all off the 'would have been much better as a single' The River. I didn't expect to like Working on a Dream and Outlaw Pete I really do not like but I very much enjoy the rest of the album.
Bowie should have stopped..
...after 'The Laughing Gnome'. It's been downhill ever since (apart from maybe Heroes and Golden Years).
Still, fair play to him for fleecing the gullible by selling futures in himself.
Who's that trip-trapping over my bridge?
Said the nasty troll ;-)
Are you serious?
While we're at it, maybe the Beatles should have 'quit while they were ahead' after Love Me Do...
Very serious indeed
I find his work to be affected, fake and contrived. Possibly due to the emphasis on style over substance.
And he has an irritating voice.
And, really, how can you take anyone seriously who doesn't even know how to pronounce his own name correctly?
All in all, a textbook case of 'Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome'
I'm
lost for words...Sheev, we need you!
And out of interest, how does he pronounce 'David Jones'? As in holes?
You're too harsh
For Bruce I wouldn't want to be without, Nebraska, Born in the USA, Tunnel of Love or The Rising. I have a soft spot for Magic too.
Stones, Goat's Head Soup, Some Girls, Tattoo You and Voodoo Lounge are all worthy.
REM is close, but New Adventures in HiFi is an excellent album.
You are correct about New Order.
As for Dylan, Magic and Loss that came out this decade is superb, as is Time Out of Mind (97) and Oh Mercy (89)
Wasn't Magic and Loss
one of Laughing Lou's?
Do you mean Love and Theft?
Er ... yes
Love and Theft, sorry just got up ! Thanks.
Magic and Loss is good too though ...
To clarify
I enjoy Tunnel of Love, Adventures in Hifi, Time out of Mind etc and have all those - but is there not a falling off? Are they as good as Darkness on the Edge of Town, Green or Blonde on Blonde? I would say they're not. So, in another world, REM, like Cantona, bow out with AFTP at the very top, leaving a catalogue of sustained brilliance. Where, looking back, did brilliance get replaced by quite good? Around then I'd say.
also
New Order had some great songs on Republic
How could you want Bruce to stop before he'd done Born In The USA? That is the Springsteen equivalent of Automatic For The People by REM! Everyone's most commercial and popular album needs to remain surely! And even more important it has my favourite BS track on it:
Ultimately I think the idea of a band ending at any point other than when they naturally stop is a bit silly, because you never know what their next album might offer. Live fast die young, going out in a blaze of glory, all that stuff is not really real
Look at Johnny Cash's comeback when he had seemed to have stopped being relevant to anything forever. Musicians can always surprise you. I'd written off Patti Smith and then she recorded the song Blakian Year which I love.
You just never know. Yes sometimes its tempting to say they should stop at a certain point. But really its up to us to decide when to stop with them. Like Richard Herring says about his podcast, if you don't like it don't listen.
Although this thread resulted in me listening back to some of my favourite tracks and so I am most grateful for it.
New Order were always
a bit hit and miss - there's only one album that is first rate from start to finish (Technique), the others are a combination of astonishingly good songs and "doesn't quite get there". I say this as a big fan, BTW.
On that basis their last albums (Get Ready and Waiting For The Siren's Call) stand up, but unless you're serious about them, compilations are definitely the way to go.
as someone who is serious about them
I'd agree with all that. Technique is a great album though as you said so the none serious potential fan should buy Technique and then The Best Of New Order and then with time come to the albums.
That said I think the best of New Order's early songs are better than the best of the last two albums.
Quite so
Who'd have put money on Madness coming up with 'The Liberty of Norton Folgate'?
do the beatles have a perfect body of work?
Nope.
Elton John
should have stepped down off the piano stool after "Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy" and stayed at home counting his tiaras in the 80's. How did the man who made this also do "I'm Still Standing"?
Surprising choice
I think I'm Still Standing is a great track. But even better, and even later, is this. One of his all-time best, in my opinion. Brilliant lyrics. One of the best videos I've seen as well.
I agree - great song
Also 'This Train ...' from the same album. I saw him playing a solo show in a rugby stadium in France about six months before the album came out and he played 'This Train ...' and I knew then and there that he had found whatever it was he had lost.
A little patchy over the years since mind you!
As I'm at work
and don't have the time to check. Is it the Bernie Taupin factor at work? I'm sure someone more enlightened that me could verify when they split and when they got back together again.
Yes, Bernie was very much involved
in the Songs From The West Coast album, from which I Want Love and This Train Don't Stop Here Anymore are taken. Highly recommended - a stripped down, no frills gem.
OK
do I assume that the 80's Elton of "I'm Still Standing" and "Nikita" etc. were non Bernie songs? Looks like I'll have to re-vist 90's Elton on your recommendation. I have GOT to get on with some work.
If Zep
had included
"Achilles Last Stand" from Presence on Physical Graffiti
- probably could have lived without anything after
then you wouldn't have "Fool
then you wouldn't have "Fool in the Rain". Or "Darlene".
Or...
...Carouselambra, or In The Evening..
The perfect end and the perfect beginning
Talk about going out on a high...
and this was a fantastically exciting opening shot...
And come to think of it, the start of The Modfather's solo career was also a stormer:
http://open.spotify.com/track/32NiLSbu0JHMZXvdKswxl8
Neil Young
Rust Never Sleeps.The odd decent track here and there since.I would still describe myself as a huge fan of the old guy but I stopped buying his records years ago.Stuff like "Old Ways" and "Everybody's Rockin'" left me speechless.Gave him another chance in later years but "Freedom" and "Ragged Glory" still lack the old magic compred with his '70,s output.
I'm not sure he should
If you'd asked me after Hop Farm last year I'd have said it was time to pack it in.
This year in Hyde Park, which I had to be virtually dragged to kicking and screaming, he was magnificent.
I have to disagree about Freedom. A wholly consistent album. I'm a big fan of This Note's For You, Harvest Moon and (I've said it before and probably am alone on this) Greendale. Living For War was pretty good too.
It's better to burn out than to fade away
Greendale is an exceptional album, and everyone should listen to it again ( the last track is a bit duff).
I thought Paul MaCartney should have packed it in a couple of albums back and then he released The Fireman album and all is forgiven.
This shows that everybody that ever made a great album has the potential to get it right one more time.
The Cure
Should have rolled down the lipstick after Wish. The four albums they produced after that were very average compared to what had come before.
Yes
Yes should have stopped after Going For The One
Genesis after Duke
Neil Young after Freedom
ELP after Brain Salad Surgery
Bowie after Scary Monsters - even if he does a great album, nobody other than the committed really cares any more.
Let's Dance?
sold a fair few copies I believe
Keep on rockin' in the free world (a bit longer)
3 albums longer: Ragged Glory, Harvest Moon, Sleeps With Angels
A terrific
triumvirate
Springsteen.......
Anyone, anyone who says Springsteen had completely shot his bolt post River or BitUSA, please take time out to listen to the Seeger Sessions album or, even better, it's live partner, Live in Dublin where he re-invents Atlantic City, Growin Up, If I Should Fall Behind and Highway Patrolman. The Wembley show on that tour is probably the most life affirming concert I've ever been to. Just listen to this rehearsal outtake...
Stackridge are still going strong!
For some reason the very existence of this band passed me by, until hearing “Long Dark River” on a recent Word CD. I have just spent a very enjoyable weekend listening to the album that track is on, this year’s “A Victory for Common Sense”.
This is an album full of stately, beautifully crafted songs, from a band who sound like they’re at the top of their game. Given the aforementioned law of diminishing returns, I can’t believe they’ve been going since 1970! Without having heard their earlier work it's impossible for me to compare, but I can't see how their earlier stuff can be better than this album.
Stackridge
I loved and played Long Dark River loads of times but to my shame I haven't bought the CD yet. Try The Man In The Bowler Hat next, then Friendliness. Yer man Beany's a big fan.
You can always point to
moments of greatness on later albums but I think all artists have a peak which they rarely match again unless they split at the right time like The Beatles,The Jam and The Smiths
the question is though should they bow out at the top
of their game.
I would say no to avoid losing those moments of greatness that come on the later albums that you mention.
And also as the thread suggests the top of their game is a debatable moment. The original post has Springsteen bowing out before Born In The USA. Some REM fans would have them leave on Automatic For The People and others for New Adventures In Hi Fi.
I agree with you that nearly all my favorite bands have a peak that they hit and then never again. But that doesn't mean they should have stopped there. I like the messiness of real life and I like having the hope that maybe on the next album will be a couple of moments of greatness or even that the next album will prove me wrong and actually here is the bands peak. Because you can never know if a band can do better than their previous best until they do.
King Crimson should have knocked it on the head after
Discipline.
The later 80s stuff was very much diminishing returns. The double-trio was nought but an interesting experiment and the 'nuovo metal' line-up just didn't click with me.