I enjoy sport, but not the win at all costs mentality. Especially in youth football, where working with the ball and enjoyment should be priorities, not charging up and down the pitch with a load of angry Dads screaming at you to 'get stuck in'.

Even at my weekly 5-a-side games, there are always a couple of lads who take it far too seriously and get on everyones tits.

A parent at my daughter's sports day said of her 5 year old son "I want him to win, because it's a tough world out there, and if you can't compete you'll get nowhere."

I think the poor little sod will end up on The Apprentice.

..of the big marathons like London - start the ones first who are competitive then start the rest a bit later do do what they want - personal bests, just had a go or turned up dressed as a tortoise cos that's how fast they're going to go.

... soured me of any enjoyment of it, to the point that I started to actively run away when balls came near me before, at the age of 14, deciding just never to take part. However I have recently taken up jogging, in the hope of shifting some belly (lost a stone in the past year, so it works fine). Not sure if hauling my wheezing carcass through a park causes me any joy as such, but my less wobbly belly gives me a warm inner glow, so I guess I concur.

No children as of yet, but rampaging atheist lapsed catholic bastards like me will find pay or pray difficult...

which brought back horrible memories of games lessons at my own comp in a small town not far from where you are now.

I hated every minute of it and it put me of taking part in sport for life. Even now, I absolutely detest the whole ethos of team sports, specially since my Dad was constantly bullying me to take part as it would (of course) make a "man" of me. (Reader: it failed).

I don't just hate the win-at-all-costs mentality, but even more than that, the attitude that this is the most appropriate approach for boys in particular, and the appalling macho bullshit that flows from that set of attitudes.

I can't post Youtube links from work, but I'm hoping someone will post "Sport (The Odd Boy)" by the Bonzo's. I was that boy!

Based on past form, he would have just hung around.

(Sorry, apologies etc etc)

We are all competitive, only to differing degrees.

Parents are a nightmare for kids. I know, I am one. You want them to do well at everything they do so that they learn to value what they do in as many different ways as possible: joy being an especially good way of valuing your achievements.

But you constantly have to check yourself that you're not warping them with your own bullshit or the bullshit of others that you co-opt from elsewhere to impose on your kids: it can make you look and sound like a fraud. My honest opinion is that telling your child they need to be the best and to win at all costs is not instilling in them the tools they need to compete in life. It is telling them that there is only one way to succeed in life which is a simplistic and linear narrative that reduces life to the accumulation of trinkets, baubles and applause.

The mantra of winning and being the best is only a target in sport or in life: it tells you far less about who you are as a person than the process of trying to do your best. It's lazy and reductionist parenting in my opinion, applying a very narrow and adult-oriented objective that is more about creating an appearance for the outside world than about preparing your child for the outside world. Life and sport is not all about crossing the finishing line first. God help us if it was.

That said, I firmly believe that kids need to know where you, as a parent, set limits. But as a parent it is your duty to use those limits to free your kids, not enclose them. Sport is great for this. Telling your kids they have to be the best is setting a limit that is limiting to them, to your relationship with them and to their relationship with other people. I've seen the kids in team games whose parents expect them to be the best on the pitch rather than do their best for the team. The root value of competition is to improve yourself to do better for yourself and by others, not to be better than everyone else.

I realise this possibly sounds like some kind of horrible list of motivation techniques but it's not, honestly. I'm just writing in short-hand something that is both highly personal with multiple strands of off the cuff parenting involved. It's mostly intuitive, based on trial and error, flying by the seat of your pants parenting that occasionally uncovers a rich vein that helps bring long periods of joy. Sport is good for this.

After all, it's a competitive world. And it ain't gonny stop being so.

Realise this is probably a minority view on here. But heyho.

I'm the parent of a 6 year old kid who enjoys sport, and plays a wide range of them at the local YMCA - baseball, basketball and soccer. The entire league is organized by the Y, so all the teams, coaches and parents have signed up for the same ethos.

It's nice - all the kids get game time, and there are no "winners" or "losers". They learn to play the right way and a lot of good values.

And yet.... and yet.... Chris keeps score. He knows exactly who won and didn't.
There are kids out there who are not ever going to enjoy or be good at sport. You can see it now. There is alack of joie de jeu about them that has nothing to do with the coaching (which is generally excellent)
When I was growing up, I reveled in sport. I took delight in playing, in and of itself. I took great delight in beating the opposition; I didn't like losing, but that made sure I tried harder the next time so it didn't happen again. I played principally team sports, rather than individual athletics, and I can say a lot of what I use well on a day to day basis at work I honed on the playing field.

Win at all costs, for young kids, is wrong. But we should never lose sight of the fact that kids ARE competitive, and that winning or losing is part of life's cycle. If you want to exercise without competition, there's a place for that. But I do believe that sport is, and should be, competitive.

*dismounts soapbox and tries to exercise mind not muscle*

it's knowing how to win, and lose, with good grace, I reckon. Once the joy of participating goes out of sport for the winners and the losers, so it disappears for the spectator, too, and we wind up with idiotic tribes who measure their lives by the performance of their team. I was watching a documentary about Bobby Charlton the other week, and came to the conclusion that my passion for top-level football began to wane when he, and players like him, began to disappear from the game.

What would Jesus have done, Mensi? Not that I hold any candle for organised (or disorganised) religion, but he probably would have turned the other cheek, rather than turning a gun on anyone. Know what you mean, though!

wept

That's one of the only really useful bits of advice we can give our kids when it comes to sport. There's a fine line between encouraging them to try hard (which will usually mean trying to win), which I think is good and positive [assuming the child doesn't actively hate the sport], and hectoring them to WIN, DAMMIT, KILL THE LITTLE BASTARD. If/when my daughter starts doing any sport with a competitive element, I'd want her (and me) to both rejoice in her triumphs AND make it clear that her defeats don't matter in the great scheme of things. Clearly, I'll never make a tennis parent!

I would like to say it's bloody complex trying to get everything right. My personal ethos is that I do it to provide some kids with an opportunity to play an organised team game, learn the benefits of playing as a team and taking responsibility and having fun. And in no particular order.

It gets difficult because some players are more committed - they train every week and organise (or their parents do) their lives around the fact that they play football on a Sunday morning. Others will miss training, not be available for every 3rd match and yet still expect to be treated the same as everyone else.

One other thing I think is important. That they learn to win and lose properly. They shake hands, they don't gloat or sulk whatever the provocation (and, truth be told, there is very little). But then we're not in the top couple of divisions - playing in Division 5 has its benefits. At the top, I suspect it's a little different.

doing the catering with his rip-off fish sandwiches again

It was my little girl's first sports day yesterday, and I felt the school got the balance just about right. Kids got "medal" stickers for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, and there were six kids in each race. So half the kids in the school got a "medal". And the emphasis was so obviously on having fun, teamwork, cheering each other on and so on that the half who were stickerless by three o'clock didn't seem to mind at all.

I think it's nice to learn to win graciously, and for it to be obvious that some people do win sometimes, and for it to be made clear that not everyone gets to win.

But it's also important to fail. That's how we learn almost anything worth learning: we fail at it, then get better. It's such a big part of how we learn to take responsibility for ourselves.

I suppose it's all about the atmosphere in which this happens. Win or lose, if the atmosphere is supportive and kind and discourages triumphalism and gloating, you'll be onto something good.

are still a subject where you're allowed to ignore the no-hopers - and get praised for it.

Get a good performance in inter-school / county sports - well done the PE staff.

Say "I'm not bothering to teach young Ellen maths any more, he's crap at it, I'm going to concentrate on the good ones" doesn't go down so well.

I wouldnt want either of my kids to do anything without trying their best. I firmly believe in most walks of life you only get out of something what you put into it. On that basis I fail to see how any of us would want our children to go into something in a half hearted way. If they dont win in a competition there is nothing at all wrong with trying harder next time. However ,and this is where I agree with the essence of what Mensi is saying ,there should be absolutely no shame in failure. Equally there should be no triumphalism in winning. Magnanimity is an attractive trait that very few possess. Encouragement to do better is not a crime. My daughter had her end of term report yesterday which was largely excellent. What I really appreciated though was that every subject gave her tips on areas where she should concentrate even more to improve her performance. Don't recall seeing that on my school reports and I thought it was a good way of getting the kids to try even harder.

a "Hockey Mom".

Personalised number plates? Oh please.

"So the last in the sack race shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
Or something equally cryptic.
Funny guy, JC.
Hilarious.

I work in a church school. It isn't sitting well with my secular humanism, but it pays the mortgage.

(Huge 'I'm not a parent' caveat up front, so feel free to disregard.)

Maybe the thing about sport, and all the rest of it, is engagement then trust. Get them into a position where they actually do stuff (educational, recreational, sport) then trust them to find their own particular channel. Having seen my peers bring up kids, i know that what i'd be worried about would be horizons, engagement, confidence and enthusiasm rather than specific subjects, sports or hobbies. I just imagine that if the kid has faith in him/herself and sees the planet as a big interesting thing to experience - rather than a big scary thing to hide from - then that attitude will mesh with something external at some point. (Yeah, i know, i'm not a parent.)

One of his lads is a fine footy player and Dave's previously made some good points about the coaching ethos.

For me, I play a few sports. I'm good at some and shit at others. I've never been that bothered about winning or losing. I do, however, get very aerated if I don't play to the standards I set myself.

and this subject raises it's head here almost as much as RT and HJH but this is a little closer to my heart. You're right I've stated my opinion before, teach the kids to play and enjoy first. The good ones will come to the top and if they're really good they will need to learn to win at some point. Sunday morning park football is a vipers nest of failed adults and shellshocked children who wonder what happened to the game they used to love, it breaks my heart and I will be glad when next season is over as it will be my last as a volunteer coach, it is a thankless task. Children develop differently and at different ages, a good biggun will beat a good littlun at a young age but the good biggun will turn into Emile Heskey (apologies Emile) not Andres Iniesta or Xavi Hernandez, coaches in this country just don't see it. I love the Mourinho quote up there a bit.

I always loved school sports day as a child and adult, I miss them now they're gone, a brilliant piece of writing from the heart again Mensi.

for they shall always outnumber the winners
..allowing them a numerical superiority which guarantees victory should they choose to crush the winners...

they cut that bit out, y'know

My son plays youth rugby at one of the professional London clubs, he'll be in the U17s in the autumn, and I always think they have the win-enjoyment balance just about right.
It's a competitive, physical sport and they play in a league, but they have always been taught that you don't win at all costs - you win by training hard and playing your best.
They celebrate their successes and accept their defeats with good grace. The training is fun and engaging with emphasis on skills rather than brute force.
There is a premium on good behaviour on and off the pitch and in five years of watching I have only ever seen half a dozen punches thrown. Mind you, one of those was by my son the day after his girlfriend gave him the elbow, and he was promptly subbed by the coach.
And parents are left with no illusions by the coaches that touchline warriors will not be tolerated. I have never witnessed the kind of horror stories that I read about youth football.
After every game the teams do a handshake line up, and they often have a meal together as well, which is a good way of diffusing tension after a bruising encounter.
Whether all this changes as they get older remains to be seen, but I hope not. Most of the team having been playing together for a number of years now and they are pretty self-regulating now.
And football could learn an awful lot about play acting and respect for the ref from rugby.

is a favourite book of mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

You might enjoy it, Mensi

and I still don't know what your point is.

Something about the atmosphere at Church schools? Church schools in relation to sports?

The relative importance of participation and success in sports more generally? What take Jesus might have on some/all of the above?