Entertainment For Lively Minds
We tried and we failed, we tried and we failed
I was on my hols recently. Amongst a big pile a books I brought to read was Under The Volcano by Malcolm Lowry. I tried to read this book when I was in my early twenties after finding out that it is seen as one of the Great Works of 20th century fiction, but I failed miserably forty or fifty pages in. At the time I put it down to the themes being too mature for a mere youngster like me.
Since then though I have seen and heard so many positive reviews of the book I thought I'd give it a another go. Certainly, the synopsis always sounded like it was right up my street: existential angst, alcoholism, and madness in an exotic location with an 1930s backdrop that includes the Spanish Civil War and the struggle between Fascism and Communism. It even includes references to the occult, kabbalah and heterodox religion. Sounds like a great mix to me.
Yet, for all this, I got about 250 pages in and chucked away in frustration. I am sure it is a masterpiece and all, but Lowry's style is like a collaboration between Grahame Greene and Hemingway as redrafted by Ulysses era Joyce. To me it smacks of fine writing and I couldn't help thinking that its a Eng Lit Prof's wet dream: a book to be endlessly analyzed - it's chock full of symbolism and allusion - but not really enjoyed as a Good Read. I am quite happy to admit it is my bad and also to be convinced I have missed something.
To tell you the truth, I have the same sort of feeling when I listen to Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space. I know I should like it: it is the kind of Classic Album that is usually right up my street. But somehow Spiritualized leave me cold. Again, can't help but feel it's me who is missing something.
Anyone else get into difficulties like this with Stuff You Really Should Like?
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I tend to avoid
"stuff you really should like" like the plague.
Better to be pleasantly surprised by something than you stumble over naturally rather than ticking things off lists because "you should".
Btw, Lazer Guided Melodies is an infinitely better record than ' Ladies and Gentlemen...'
The latter is overblown and overlong, whereas the former is a magical record that bears repeated listening.
Seconded
Lazer Guided Melodies is shimmeringly beautiful and by Mr Spaceman's standards, pretty concise. I'd take it over "Ladies and Gentlemen...' any day.
https://
Thirded
Thirded.
Fourthed?
.
Ulysses
I've retired defeated by page 10 a few times.
One day.
Ditto
and the same goes for a whole bunch of literary novels, from Ford Maddox Ford to Joseph Conrad via Henry James and Wilkie Collins. However, I fucking love Shakespeare, me. And Chaucer and TS Eliot (can't be doing with his brother George, mind).
Me too
With Ulysses and The Secret Agent by Conrad.
Went shopping for some holiday books today and seems I'm totally out of inspiration, need about 8 books for 3 weeks and managed 2, will have another go on Saturday.
And me
I've never got beyond p.50 of Ulysses. I know I should like it, but...
I blogged this time last year about how much I hated A Confederacy Of Dunces, but read it as I had nothing else to read on holiday.
For a moment I thought you meant
a book called Ulysses and the Secret Agent - which would probably be a more fun read than the other two.
The Secret Agent
is probably my favourite novel. Considering it was written over 100 years ago, a book that deals with (amongst other things) a terrorist cell in London planning a bomb attack, the possible manipulation of the terrorists by a foreign government, and the political pressures to limit civil liberties by using terrorist threats as an excuse, has some very contemporary resonances. In fact, when I've finished my current book I think I'll re-read it!
Ossipon
I loved it too. I've always felt there was something about it I didn't quite get, as if the characters were based on real people, or their names were emblematic of something beyond the text. Ossipon is a very strange name, for example. Is it a near-anagram of poison? An actual anagram of poisson? That didn't get me very far (what has a fish to do with anything?), but it seems possible that a novel set in a secret world has some secrets it won't give up.
And another one
I blame Kate Bush.
Ulysses 31 was quite enjoyable though.
By way of coincidence
I was only thinking of Ulysses 31 the other day. I remember nothing about it other than the theme tune - I thought i was the only one to remember it, off to You Tube next I think.
One Day
- now there's a book you should read - it's really good.
I think I need to try again
Everyone, but everyone, raves about this book. I got to page 20 or so, put it down, and never felt the urge to pick it up again. Maybe my head just wasn't in a 'fiction' place at the time, but the characters just didn't grab my attention. I was quite disappointed in the book and myself, as I absolutely loved Starter For Ten. I have dwelt on this somewhat over the past few months, and have read loads of stuff in the interim, so I think I really do need to try again, before the film version colours my response irrevocably.
I'll just wait
for the movie.
The book was ruined for me (SPOILER ALERT)
by the lazy plot device of the female protagonist having (and dying from) cancer. Very "Love Story "
There was absolutely no need to kill the character off - probably seemed like a good idea at the time, or the writer couldn't think of another resolution.
When you live with someone who has cancer, this device really racks you off. e.g. (TV Crime/Drama) the person who is dying and decides to take loads more people with them, reveal some long-held dark secret etc.
Sure, people die from cancer - loads of them. It just seemed inappropriate to me to use it in this way.
Spoiler Spoiler
Cancer? You sure you're talking about One Day? There was no cancer in the version that I read...
Hmmm
Perhaps it's an anti-spoiler spoiler.
OMG! (Did I really say that?)
I re-read the relevant chapter on a station platform yesterday. You're absolutely right - how did I get that so wrong (although the outcome/plot device was analogous)? a bit like Geo W Bush 'mis-remembering'.
Weird - must have been two other books.
Apologies where due.
BL.
I have
And I enjoyed it, in a 'something to read while you're watching telly' way. Entertaining but light, and rather obvious to my mind.
Try the comic version...
http://ulyssesseen.com/landing/read-the-comic/
They'v only done two chapters so far, but they give you a great insight into the book.
Lord of the Rings
Four times out of the Library and four times back without disturbing pages 20 to end!!!
Even some LOTR fans say...
...if you can get past the first 100 pages, you'll be swept along to the end. But personally, as a long time, serial re-reader of the Lord of the Rings (and much else by and about Tolkien and his works), I absolutely adore the first half of the first volume, with all its whimsy and exposition and slow-movingness. Horses for courses...
However... I confess to having tried and failed more than once with 'The Silmarillion', even managing to get through maybe three of the (can't recall how many) unabridged audiobook volumes read (rather well) by the bloke from the Professionals/Judge Deed. To no avail. It's just not interesting enough to me. And yet... I can read endless literary criticism books about Tolkien and his ideas, including much that pertains to the Silmarillion and its multi-volume posthumously published sets of early versions. Somehow, I can tolerate people discussing the themes, influences, ideas, etc, of it all without actually reading the damn thing. It's a bit like Bob Dylan's recording career: I know the shape of it and bits of the content but without ACTUALLY having ever had to sit down and listen to any of it (or buy it). Ditto 'The Silmarillion.'
Absolutely
Stick with it Gordon. Unlike Colin I still find the entire first volume almost unbearably slow. It only really gets going once they get to Moria. I dont see any real reason why you couldnt just skip a couple of hundred pages, especially if you've seen the films. It took me at least 3 attempts before I could get past that hippie wanker Tom Bombadill and his horse faced bird but then it all gets moving at a fair old rate and is hugely entertaining.
One thing to note about that whole generation of writers is that they had mostly seen the horrors of WW1 at firsthand and seem to have turned to fantasy as a way of escaping the scars it had left on them. That lends LOTR a poignancy that much of the film version lacked.
Silmarillion Audiobook
I got through it all but it was a bloody hard slog.
An awful lot of old-testament-style soandso begat whatsisname stuff around the real meat of the stories. Martin Shaw's "Classical Act-or"ly narration didn't really help. He began to irritate (fourteen and a half hours of him), though I suppose the tone of the book called for a voice of that sort.
I struggled (and failed) to keep awake on many occasions. By the end I'd lost interest really and just carried on out of cussedness.
I'm sticking with...
Mr Bump. More my level.
I might get shot down in flames
here but I couldn't get on with the Rotters Club by Johnathan Coe. Everything about it suggested it would be great - Set in Birmingham at a time when I was the same age as the characters in the book. Connection with music etc etc. Truth was I thought it was very badly written.I completed it but it was a very laboured read and put me off reading any more of his books which may be extreme because I know they have been well reviewed and he is held in high esteem as a writer.
I agree with you Steve.
I read The Rotters Club having bought it in a three for two deal. However, one of the other books I picked up was by him as well, called What A Carve Up, and it's a hell of a lot better.
What a carve up
is hilarious and scathing, though oddly I read a while back that he wasn't so happy with the scathing tone, but then he was trying to promote the far gentler Rotters Club at the time ! I would also recommend House of Sleep as well which is one of my favourites of his - it's quite odd but a very genuine and affecting read. Do try it.
Yup, read it too!
I thought 'Carve Up' was better, but I agree, House of Sleep is a good read!
That's a shame
I loved it, but came to it with no expectations (I'm not even sure I'd read the blurb) so it came as a pleasant surprise. Ulysses though, where do you start with it? Seriously, I'd love to know...
Fact
For a long while in my teens I could not understand why so many went on about how dense and intellectual Ulysees was.
I had romped through it at the age of 12 and thought it very exciting.
However, this was 'HMS Ulysees' by Alistair Maclean. The penny eventually dropping with a clang audible for miles one afternoon in the school library.
It's still the better novel in my opinion.
*goes back to the colouring. sticks tongue out while not going over the line*
The New Bloomsday Book by Harry Blamires
That's where to start.
Having tried Ulysses and not got beyond the foothills, I made a last attempt, armed with Blamires' guide.
That did the trick and was well worth it. Ulysses really is an exceptional book and worth the effort.
Coincidentally, this brought my tally of successful New Year Resolutions to two, 'giving up golf' being the other. Hard to say which has given me more pleasure really.
Thanks...
I'll give it one last shot. Wish me luck!
Seconded
I did precisely the same thing. Blamires is like a friendly and engaging tour guide, providing context and explanation to all the strangeness.
Astral Weeks
There are some Van lps I admire greatly
But AW is not one of them. Have never been able to sit through 'Cyprus Avenue' once.
Put down the coke
and pick up the weed.
With the exception of reggae, ..
music that requires weed in order to appreciate it doesn't hold much appeal for me. Stopped smoking a long time ago and can't imagine a revisit, even if it meant experiencing the joys of VM in the throes of his Celtic pride.
PJ Harvey
I've tried but for the life of me I just can't get into her at all. However, I'm told her latest is pretty splendid so I guess I'll give it a go.
Golf is another one. And cricket.
Do It!
I put way too much effort into liking Polly Harvey until England Shakes.
At last, a PJ Harvey record that sounds like what I always thought a PJ Harvey record would sound like.
It's a minor masterpiece.
Couldn't agree more
about Under the Volcano - tedious and pretty damn near unreadable. I tried reading it years ago, thinking my life wouldn't be complete otherwise, but I'm sorry, it's tripe.
The Inbetweeners
I know I'm in the minority, but sorry.
Inception - ditto.
Kubrick - aside from Full Metal Jacket and Spartacus, he leaves me cold.
Terry Wogan - give me Danny Baker any day.
Star Wars - I was the ideal age to be blown away, but the films just struck me as humourless toy commercials. And just to really rile the fans, the ones I quite enjoyed were Return of the Jedi and Attack of the Clones.
Literature.
Tits me off most of the time.
The written equivalent of avant-garde freeform be-bop jazz. Terribly clever but utterly devoid of joy.
Anyway. Back to my copy of The Quiller Conundrum: A tree falls in Columbia, a man cracks his knuckles in an office in Denton. Unrelated, it would seem but within days the World is brought to the brink of nuclear apocalypse and only Dirk Thrust holds the key to the disparate threads which can bring resolution..
Look. I'm on holiday..
What?
I thought you were making $3 000 - $8 000 a month working from home - at least that's what all your twitter messages keep telling me.
And me
Every night about 3.30am. I wanted to know how he does it. $8000 a month sitting on my arse sounds too good to be true. Still I really don't want to work night shifts!
It's a Very Nice holiday...
He'd never have afforded it through dentistry alone.
What's it all about.
I have watched Citizen Kane, said by many to be the greatest flick ever made, twice, and on both times ten minutes in after saying to myself I can't see what all the fuss is about I have nodded off. Am not going to bother a third time unless I have insomnia.
No reason for the fuss
It only created the entire visual and narrative language of modern cinema.
That's a bit snotty sounding
So, in recompense, I'm going to suggest a wee experiment which'll teach you a great deal. It certainly did when I moaned about not getting the fuss about Kane to a mate.
Watch Gone With The Wind. Made in 1939. Highest grossing film, adjusted for inflation, of all time. All 346 hours of it. Stagey, filmed like a static play and may as well have had a series of waxworks delivering the dialogue.
Then pop Kane (also made in 1939 and grossed fuck all) into your dvd player and see artistic revolution at its absolute zenith. Cinema is being reborn in every frame. It genuinely did create the visual and narrative language of cinema from then on in and is, honestly, the greatest film of all time. No Kane, no Godfather, Raging Bull, Fellini or Bergman. It's the Beatles of movies.
Bit boring, though.
;-)
Nay! Nay! And thrice Nay!
The bit goatboy left out (which I thought was rather important) is that it's also a cracking story featuring some terrific performances.
Thought I'd covered that
in the bit about the difference in the acting.
I dont think the story is the most important thing - terrific though it is. Kane is all about the big set pieces. Rosebud and the broken snow globe, the "News on the March" scene, the scene in the log cabin, the twenty year breakfast, the staff swap photo on the newspaper, the showgirls "Charlie Kane" bit, the opera section, the election, the bad review, the freakout in Xanadu. Everything really.
What a fucking brilliant film. And people like Avatar.
Och, Bob
Yer a wee scamp, so you are.
I think we have been down this road before but
"Gravity's Rainbow" - now long-gone via charity bookshop.
"Cloud Atlas" - allegedly brilliant. Not for me.
"Cromwell - Our Chief Of Men", by Antonia Fraser - hugely lauded at the time of publishing. Tediously long - might enjoy it now, if I had loads of time on my hands.
Similarly long, "A Suitable Boy" by Vikram Seth - couldn't be bothered because of all the characters - so slow in narrative - kept restarting, because I couldn't remember how far I had got. Gave up in the end.
Cloud Atlas
I absolutely loved it - this despite having been lent it by an acquaintance who raved about it and told me it was some of the best writing she'd ever read. It's tricksy, for sure, but I don't mind tricksiness if it's in service of something really special. Another example of this is Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections (though I maintain that Strong Motion is better, and may turn out to be disquietingly prescient).
"A Suitable Boy"
My mother urged this onto me shortly after it came out, raving about it. Both my parents grew up in post-Partition India and it's a part of my heritage I know very little about or, as a stroppy teenager growing up in 1980s Midlands, was particularly bothered about.
I usually disregarded my mother's book recommendations, as with the exception of PG Wodehouse, they were in my eyes, rubbish, frankly (I was all about Bukowski, John Fante, Brautigan etc at the time) But 'A Suitable Boy' sucked me in from the first page - I was completely absorbed into the texture and atmosphere of the places, the characters reminded me of distant relatives, the gentle arc of the narrative which took in so much along the way carried me painlessly through the eight gazillion-page text. Suddenly, I understood so much more about my parents background, the environment in which they had grown up. There comes a point in everyone's life when parents resolve from being abstracted figures of authority, bewildering rationales and obtrusive decisions to being people and trite as it sounds, reading that book did a lot to make me see them in a new light, as people.
I'm aware that there are criticisms and it tended towards the sentimental and romantic at times, but then so do I. It was the first book I read that connected with that particular part of me and I still love dipping into it every now and again.
Of course, that's just my memory of it. I've tried foisting it onto friends since (even in German translation) and the general response has been pretty low-key. I feel I must be about the only person in Berlin who is genuinely excited by the fact that the sequel is planned for release in 2013!
There's nothing worse
than other people's raves about their faves. Being told I'll like something kills it stone dead for me. Being told I'll like someone because they're 'funny' or 'like you' always sets alarm bells ringing. I hate them on sight.
Lending me books feels like I've been asked to do a book report for school.
I might take some music considerations on board, I read reviews after all, and if someone gives me a home-made CD I'll give it a spin, but generally, I like to plough my own furrow.
I know what I like.
It's always awkward isn't it
being lent a book that you start to read and don't enjoy. As you say, like doing a book report, you feel you've got to try and finish it in case they want to discuss it when you give it back to them!
Frank Zappa
good name for a rock star, bad music for one.
I just deleted
a load of Frank Zappa from my iPod. I tried, but I couldn't escape the feeling that I was being sneered at all the time...
You were.
The only person Frank didn't hold in contempt was the guy he saw in the mirror when he brushed his teeth.
Franz Kafka and Gunter Grass
The Trial and Tin Drum respectively. God knows who I was trying to impress. Unreadable, the pair of them.
Also, at the risk of incurring the ire of the massive, RT. He should tick all my musical boxes and I've tried but it's all so dull and dreary.
The Tin Drum
is ace! The horse's head scene alone is worth the price of admission.
On the other hand, 'The Flounder' is the one book where I have had to just give up.
Aye
I enjoyed the Tin Drum as well. I was pondering over whether I should try and read it in German, but my German reading level is more Harry Potter than Die Blechtrommel.
awww!
I thought this thread might be about great b-sides or obscure tracks - twas the lines from the Smiths' Jeanne that brought me here.
"things I should like" that leave me cold...
Astral Weeks
Jeff Buckley
Richard Thompson
Harry Nilsson
Radiohead
White Stripes
and the winner is
CW Stoneking
I agree about Lazer Guided Melodies - a great record.
Glad you picked up on the reference!
Sandy Shaw's version was good though wasn't it?
I've got that!
Yes it was!...Jeanne was a song I missed first time around, having elected to buy the 12" of Charming Man with the Kevorkian remix on the b-side...and in those pre-internet days I'd always wondered what it sounded like.
The Sandie Shaw version has a lovely Back To The Old House feel to it...when I finally got the Smiths version on the recent compilation I was thrilled to hear it was a real northern soul stomper...a great song. I remember Morrissey this way...
I had the seven and twelve
inch. Those were the days. Good argument for Jeane being one of their best songs. *huge sigh*
I
still have them
lovely stuff
:-)
The novels of Virginia Woolf
I love Virginia Woolf. Quentin Bell's biography of her is one of my favourite books and I enjoy her letters, diaries and essays. But her novels leave me absolutely cold - I can't get past the first page of any of them.
Books I've been told I should like
In the village where I live, they have a market every month. There used to be a bookstall, and the guy who ran it really knew his stuff. He had ex-library books - hundreds of new ones every month, and none more than 2 dollars. I'd buy armfuls.
After noting my buying patterns, one day he thrust a copy of George Perec - Life A Users Manual into my hands. "You will love this!" he said.
"Ah! I've been looking for this for about 10 years...a friend of mine, it's her favourite book, and she was always recommending it to me...cheers!"
Got it home - just. could. not. read it.
Next time, he pulled out Proust, Swanns Way. Similar conversation, exact same result.
Taste is a tricky thing all right.
I think he was always a bit disappointed when I got excited about seeing another Kinky Friedman book in his collection. I think I let him down...
The Illuminatus! trilogy
NEVER read a book with a talking dolphin as a character.
I read bits back in the day, but lost enthusiasm as I worked my way through. I tried to re-read it whilst on my hols a few weeks ago. Bloody awful indulgent crap which needed a decent editor who could turn it into a single volume libertarian Dischordians versus Illuminati world conflict. As it was, fans of the esoteric would smirk sincerely at a frightful melange that showed just how free and open the world used to be to creative failures of all kinds. If it existed now, it would be self-published on line. In fact there probably IS a website of such stuff.
Hail Eris!
Neil Young
Just don't get it.* Heresy, I know. Although I bloody love After the Goldrush, so there's hope for me yet.
*I think it's just that sodding VOICE.
agreed
I can't get Neil Young either. It's partly the voice - which is rather too high pitched and whiney for my ears - and partly because when it comes to introspective male singer songwriters from that era, Bob Dylan takes all laurels and no-one else comes close.
I hear Young's anthems a lot on classic rock radio and generally can't wait to the tracks finish. I've stopped feeling guilty about this years ago. The one about the Needle and the Spoon makes me cringe. That would turn me onto smack if I was forced to listen to it too many times.
hahaha
agreed!
youre right about Under the Volcano
someone else said it all. unreadable. dont feel guilty. Lowry was a super intellectual and the book is deliberately obtuse, inaccessible, and, like Ulysses, only for those of a certain mindset and stamina for novels with no discernible plot, structure or resolution.
other books which I chucked after 20 pages or so
The Time Traveller's Wife
Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance
One Hundred Years of Solitude
which brings me to Greil Marcus's "The Old Weird America", which I bought a few weeks ago. It's supposed to be his seminal work about Bob Dylan and The Band's recording of The Basement Tapes. Now I got a third of the way through this book until I concluded that it was a waste of my time and it was probably best to listen to the record without having my brain stuffed with Greil's long winded pontificating bollocks - or Greillocks as it might be described.
Anyone else had a go at this book?
Snap
I agree with all three books. The only one I finished was TTW but I really want that time back. What a load of vaguely pervy wank. It's not that I hate magical realism: I loved Midnight's Children for example - though I suspect that book is on many people's "too many people say it's good for me" list.
Midnight's Children
I've never quite finished it. Too bloody pleased with itself by half, and I say that as someone who has loved plenty of Rushdie in the past, especially "The Moor's Last Sigh" and "The Satanic Verses". I just... didn't give a fuck about any of the characters. And after a while, ol' Salman's incessant "check me out! Am I cute or WHAT?" verbal acrobatics do get a trifle wearing.
On the other hand, I loved "The Time Traveler's Wife" and "One Hundred Years Of Solitude". I found TTTW a real page-turner: not necessarily the most beautifully written book ever, but a proper yarn. As for 100YOS, it made me realise just how outrageously Louis de Bernières had ripped of Marquez for his South American trilogy (which I also really like, and had read first).
Shame is better
but it seems its a bit forgotten now.
Shame is a corker.
Grimus, too.
Sinatra
Something of a bastard, but what a voice.
I agree with the first bit.
I initially read that as...
Sinitta
Something of a bastard, but what a voice.
I initially WROTE it as that.
Shit...
Anything by James Joyce
Just plain terrible. Ambitious, yes, and interesting in what it tries to do, but still terrible, self-indulgent nonsense.
And Tolkien. For pretty much the same reasons.
Really?
Portrait Of The Artist is pretty accessible, as is Ulysses. In fact I really like Ulysses. Finnegan's Wake is total shite, howevever, for all the reasons given by my learned friend above.
Meanwhile, BTTOP:
A Hundred Years of Solitude, Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It took me eight bloody years to read that sodding thing. Glad I did, though: a beautiful lump of writing and all this, that.
Really? no.2
Ulysses may be many things itfc, but it's not all that "accessible" is it?
Justified and pedantic
I understand it to be significant, and no doubt laugh-out-loud hilarious to some Dublin professors, that the title is _Finnegans Wake_.
See also:
Howards End
Dexys Midnight Runners
Lifes Rich Pageant
and other apostrophe-defying cultural artefacts I carnt think of.
John Wesley Hardin'
No, wait....
Good Point
I stand corrected. '
Wrongity wrong.
Dubliners is a total masterpiece. It's also the opposite of self indulgent. Concise, to the point, often heartbreaking.
I'd also argue that pretty much the same argument applies to The Hobbit as well. Apart from the heartbreaking bit...
Since we're comparing apples and oranges
I have read, and finished, Under The Volcano, Cloud Atlas, Lord Of The Rings, Ulysses (twice), A Confederacy Of Dunces, The Rotters Club and One Day.
With one exception, I found all of them, to varying extents, difficult, challenging, stimulating, entertaining, infuriating - but ultimately worth the time and effort.
The exception was One Day, which was excruciatingly feeble from first to last. It seemed like an idiot's idea of a 'proper book'.
Just my opinion.
Oooooowwww
get you.
Harsh but not entirely wrong
Theres a whole raft of books out there - One Day, Time Travellers Wife, Small Island, White Teeth, Nick Hornby amongst others - which are so middle brow and lacking in any sort of bite or ambition you can't really call them literature at all.
Theres nothing wrong with the marginally higher class of airport novel but lets not mix them up with real writers.
Totally agree
I have read all the above - One Day is the best of the lot, but it is just a superior pot boiler. White Teeth is Rushdie Light for people who don't read "real writers"; and I know these things shouldn't really irritate me, but the 1980/90s setting are completely unconvincing.
Oh, goatboy!
Don't be such a snob! "Real writers"? "One Day" might not be anyone's idea of a groundbreaking novel, but it's lovely, and a great read. Why introduce some spurious notion of "literature" into the equation at all? Ditto TTTW.
I don't personally like "Small Island", but it's a well-written yarn. And "White Teeth" is a remarkable piece of juvenilia from the woman who went on to write "On Beauty", so I can't begrudge it anything. She will go on to be one of our great novelists, Zadie Smith, and "On Beauty" was her first step in that direction. As for Nick Hornby, he has had moments of real greatness. I think only a snob could deny it.
The idea that populist, easy-to-read fiction can't be considered "literature" is outdated and daft.
Just my opinion, of course. ;-)
No not just yours Bob
Mine too, pretty much.
Snobbish? Moi?
Fair enough guys, I can see why you might think that but I've grown increasingly tired of reading yet another heavily hyped, Book Club approved publication only to find it lightweight, poorly written and about, well, nothing really other than the story being told.
They begin, they pooter about, they end. And then they vanish from youe conciousness quicker than the time it took to read them. They're entertainments rather than artworks and, although theres nothing particuarly wrong with the occasional McDonalds you wouldn't really consider it alongside a Michelin starred resturant despite them both being food. They're two different things with two different functions.
Good, easily read novels don't have to be quite so literal rather than literate. They can have ideas, be beautifully written, contain allusions and opinions and provoke and stimulate. Of the books mentioned above David Mitchells novels, much of Jonathan Coe, Michel Houllbeq and Garcia Marquez all manage to be popular, intelligent, weighty and stimulating whilst also being fairly easy reads. The Time Travellers Wife manages none of these. Its high concept which never takes the concept anywhere other than where you'd expect it to go. Its bad blues rather than good jazz.
I think taste in music is far more subjective than literature. There are such things as bad books, even if sometimes I rather like them.
Well...
...for me, lightweight isn't a crime. We all need a bit of lightweight.
In the nicest and least confrontational way possible, I couldn't disagree more with your last paragraph. But that's life, eh?
:-)
Ok
But, for example, The Da Vinci Code is a bad book. It's horribly written, is stolen from some conspiracy theorists, makes casting suggestions for the film during the actual text and is generally the worst thing I've ever read. It often makes no sense, uses cinematic cliches to substitute for character development and generally holds a begging bowl out to the worst of Hollywood throughout.
It is a bad book - technically, imaginatively and creatively. I can say happily and without fear of disagreement that it is a wretched piece of work.
Were you to argue that The Da Vinci Code was actually a masterpiece I'd think you were seriously ill and feel nought but pity. Were you to argue that, say, The Shaggs "Philosophy of the World" was a masterpiece I'd be taken aback but willing to listen.
Music is boundless and subjective. I don't think writing is.
I'm with Bob
I couldn't disagree more with your last sentence. The first I heard of The Da Vinci Code was when an acquaintance of mine raved about it. This was a great literature lover whose previous recommendation to me was Cloud Atlas. She said Brown's book was a terrific yarn and page-turner, though the writing wasn't up to snuff. Her view is as valid as yours; or, for that matter, that of someone who thinks the Da Vinci Code is a masterpiece.
On the other hand, Possession (AS Byatt) won the Booker prize and had mostly very positive reviews. I thought it was bloody awful, stuffy, boring and pretentious. It's an entirely subjective opinion, just as yours (which incidentally I don't disagree with particularly) are.
Sorry but no.
You're wrong.
It's a piece of crap by any standards. If someone recommended it to you they were laughing at you.
Her view isnt valid as she saw quality in crap. If I suddenly saw greatness in the One Show I wouldn't expect to be taken seriously. Loving shit doesent make you virtuous. It makes you a fuckwit.
Possession is awful but at least appears to have been written by a human being. The Da Vinci Code was written by a word processor with a bank account.
"The Da Vinci Code was written by a word processor.." etc
Indeed it was.
But you still read it.
All of it.
Did you buy it?
If so, I award one point to Mr D. Brown.
I was given it
whilst on holiday in 2006.
I was on a 10 hour bus journey with no other reading material.
I have never read a worse book. If you gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite amount of time they would write a really fuckin bad review of the Da Vinci Code.
It is absolute fuckin shite. Utter, utter pish. I could write my name before Dan Brown could write a book.
"I could write my name
before Dan Brown could write a book."
Doesn't that just make you older than Dan Brown?
Seriously though, this made me wonder why this site often celebrates throwaway pop music and yet a popular novel provokes such negativity. Popular doesn't necessarily mean crap.
I have read Dan Brown but not James Joyce, I thought On The Road and Catcher In The Rye were both a waste of my time but I don't think they upset me to this extent, if at all.
Whereas I find the reverse to be true
People here are more likely to mount a defence of a populist - as opposed to popular - novel than a literary one. It's usually James Joyce, Jack Kerouac, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Michel Houellebecq etc whose books attract the "waste of my time" comments.
From Jo Brand
If you gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite amount of time, eventually one of then would write, "Hey hey, we're the monkeys."
Ooops!
Double post.
I'm with goatboy
As I noted in my post above, it's comparing apples and oranges. Why introduce some spurious notion of "literature" into the equation at all? Because that's exactly what these threads always do. It starts with a good shoeing of Under The Volcano, Ulysses etc., before someone pops up to say what a great book 'One Day' is. And here we are.
I tend to avoid discussions of books round these parts because they always seem to follow this path. I don't actually care one way or the other if people do or don't enjoy One Day, The Da Vinci Code, Small Island etc. In general, easy stuff will always be more popular than difficult stuff, in art, film, music, comedy or whatever. It's the cheerful consumer egotism that gets me down ie. I didn't 'get' Ulysses, therefore James Joyce was a con artist and the book is shit.
It's this, but with an iPad:
Agreed
But can I just add that as the OP: I *like* Ulysses. I was just commenting on Under the Volcano. I did also say that I may be at fault for not finishing it. As to the Good Read/Literature; TTW Vs 100YOS argument - I am absolutely agree that there IS a difference. The TTW is an entertainment and not much else. As an entertainment it didn't work for me, but then - as I said - as high art UTV didn't work for me.
I also agree with goatboyuk69: some writers can be entertaining and weighty; of current UK writers I would also add Sebastian Faulkes and William Boyd to his list.
The thing about Under the Volcano is
it's not for everyone. It's really fucking difficult, which is precisely what Lowry intended. I was going to say this earlier - I wanted to address my comments to the OP (which is what I'm doing now) but the thread had already moved on.
My own view is that Under the Volcano is a masterpiece but it requires deep patience and hard graft. I have been trying to find the famous fifty-page letter which Lowry wrote to Jonathan Cape in defence of the book, but it doesn't seem to be online (it was used as the intro of the old Penguin 20th Century Classics edition). In it, he is at pains to stress that UTV is not a book you are supposed to 'get' on one reading - as it goes on, the letter becomes an eloquent plea to be allowed to create challenging work. Though it wouldn't necessarily change your mind as to the merits of UTV, given that you've read so much of the novel, I'm sure you would find it very illuminating.
Alternatively, this website offers a Bloomsday-style breakdown and more notes than you can shake a symbolic dead dog at:
http://www.otago.ac.nz/english/lowry/
In short, per your original post, a great book doesn't have to be a Good Read to be a great book.
Barry thanks for this
Partly it was a plea for someone to get me "into" the book. The Bloomsday Book does that very well with Ulysses. It greatly increased my enjoyment of Ulysses when I read it a second time with Blamires acting as a guide. Maybe if I try UTV again as your link looks exactly what I want - I have just bookmarked it. Ta.
Great!
I really do hope you enjoy it more the second time - FWIW I had exactly the same Blamires experience with Ulysses.
And hunt down that letter, it's amazing.
It does seem a little self-flagellating.
Needing one book in order that one might enjoy or even understand nother book. I suppose, though, that the same applies to other artforms. Many is the picture that I have appreciated far more having read an analysis by, say, Richard Dorment.
To be
fair Barry, I only "popped up" to mention "One Day" because Gatz had finished his post with those words.
It was meant as a (very) mildly amusing response, taking his words out of context, and not intended to start a discussion on the merits of light vs heavy literature, but my context was lost by how far after my response appeared in relation to those comments.
But as you say - "and here we are".
Cormac McCarthy
I tried to read All The Pretty Horses at university but couldn't get beyond the first chapter.
I was expecting a novel, but all I got was words.
(I could afford to skip 1 or 2 texts as I think I only had to ultimately write about 4 of them, out of around 10 in this particular class.)
I later watched No Country For Old Men. Starts well but ultimately turns out to be one of the Coens' worst films. They show you less and less as the story progresses, with the quality dipping at the exact same rate. This was based on a Cormac McCathy novel.
Apparently I'm meant to like him.
Anything else with his name will be avoided.
I saw that film
and actively disliked it. Grim and tedious.
Not a great film
but an absolutely marvellous book.
McCarthy can be hard work - pessimistic, fatalistic and, above all, granite tough - but it all feels hideously true to his vision. He clearly feels all cannot end well and sticks to his view in a way a lesser writer couldn't. He exposes his characters to reality rather than fiction and that sets him apart from most.
The Road is the obvious end product. It's perhaps the most deeply depressing and upsetting book ever written and the final realisation of McCarthy's deeply unhappy view of mankind. Even the "happy" ending isnt. Actually, fuck it. Read "One Day". You'll feel better.
Cormac McCarthy and Joanna Newsom
ATPH is a difficult read but personally I loved it (eventually). Much better is part 2 of the trilogy - The Crossing which is one of the best novels Ive ever read (and one of the few that have actually made me cry as my wife still embarassingly relates to friends). The novel of No Country was better by far that the film. But on the other hand I couldnt get near some of his earlier novels like Blood Meridian.
Now my bugbear is Joanna - on paper I should love this stuff - vast songs with Van Dyle Parks orchestration; weird lead instruument; off the wall lyrics. So I settled down with YS a few years ago and ran screaming from the room after about 10 minutes. I did try and persevere and even now still I'm drawn to her , tempted by the idea of double cd (Topographic Oceans all over again). But I guess she will remain for me an undiscovered mystery. Is she the Marmite of the musical world I wonder ?
Have one on me
If you do want to give Joanna another try, have a listen to Have One On Me, her most recent album. The singing is a lot less, erm, eccentric and the arrangements less florid. It's a superb album. I love Ys as well, I should add.
C McCarthy (and J Newsom)
I read Cormac McCarthy's "The Border Trilogy" s a single fat volume and found it hard going. I persisted. The most annoying aspect for me were the frequent long passages of untranslated Spanish dialogue. Infuriating.
The first part "All The Pretty Horses" was not bad but the second part, "The Crossing" as you rightly say, is the best. The trilogy was depressing throughout and "Cities Of The Plain" quickly became tedious too. I was relieved to finally finish it.
"No Country For Old Men", however, I thoroughly enjoyed. The film version was not so bad although quite a bit was left out. One part, I suspect, purely for financial reasons. Can you imagine how much the big night-time shoot-out in that town would have cost to stage...
I enjoyed (though that's an odd word to use for such a story - perhaps I should say Fully Appreciated) "The Road". Scarily bleak reading but gripping.
I started on another one, "Suttree", but gave up after a couple of very dull chapters. That was well over a year ago. I've no desire to read any more Cormac McCarthy.
--
Joanna Newsom is fantabulous in smallish chunks, I think.
Too rich for a complete meal but absolutely ideal for snacking on.
C McCarthy (and J Newsom) - slight return
1. I've had a copy of Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" on my bookshelf for about 7 years now, but have yet to embark upon it. I rather feel that it's going to be a pretty grim read, with few chuckles along the way.
2. Personally, I find a "complete meal" of Ms Newsom very digestible. Just the other day I listened to all three discs of "Have One On Me" from start to finish, and very palatable it was too.
It's also
a triple CD no less.
JN takes a lot of getting used to. I came across her entirely by accident on a you-tube video singing "Sadie" even before her first album came out so I've had a lot of practice.
Seriously, it needs a lot of time to get past the voice but once you do you're in for a treat. She has more vision and ambition in her music than almost anyone else working in music today and Ys is, I think, the best album of the last ten years.
Madmen
Tedious, flimsy, repetitive and (I think) unrealistic story line. Bag o' shite.
Infinite Jest..
Anyone?
And Clive Barker's Imajica. My mates and I all started it. No-one got beyond half-way.
Well...
I know what you mean (i think) about Infinite Jest. It's a huge, highly praised - perhaps overly so - behemoth of a book. As a struggled through it, with difficulty at times, I did wonder if the joke was on me. And yet...it's one book I just can't stop thinking about. I actually found myself pondering buying the critique of it on Amazon the other day.
Infinite Jest
Sits on our shelves and our 8-year old son knows it is the longest novel in the house - 1500 pages! He is still amazed that it's been read by daddy. He likes looking at the page count of long books and asking us if we've read them.
I'm glad its not just me.
The one benefit of getting older is not having to impress any more so for the complete list of things I should have liked but didn't really.
Spiritualized
Lord of the rings
The Office
Gavin & Stacey
On the road by Jack Kerouac
Literature generally - i now mostly read non - fiction or exploding helicopter type stuff.
And that's just off the top of my head.
Those last two sentences ...
... have created a mental picture I don't think I'll ever lose : - ).
Dare I ask why?
And while I'm here I will add Apocalypse now to the list.
Yep
Recently, I finally sat down to watch it start-to-finish.
Frankly, not as good as the making-of documentary.
Because I picture ...
... helicopters exploding off the top of your head : - ).
Ah i like the way your brain works!
and talking of exploding helicopters the one good bit of Apocalypse now is the helicopter bit. The rest is not good. Maybe it needed more exploding helicopters, couple of car chases and maybe Angelina Jolie. Mmm maybe i should have just watched Tomb Raider
I'm struggling with Michael Moorcock's
King Of The City at the moment. I've been stuck around the 30% mark on Kindle for a week. Is it worth it or should I give up?
Star's End
Captain Beefheart.
And I can remember asking the sales assistant in a 'department store' which also sold vinyl (before the cassette era) for a listen through the headphones to David Bedford's 'Star's End'. Then I pondered and still couldn't make my mind up. Then asked for another listen. And again....couldn't quite sit through the thirty minutes or so of discordant orchestration in order to wintness again the explosion of glory that was the astral demise.
Never bought it.
David Bedford
"Star's End" is not exactly easy listening, is it. I have quite a few of his albums and enjoy 'em all, especially the lovely "Star Clusters, Nebulae & Places In Devon/The Song Of The White Horse". "Rigel 9" is probably my least favourite and least likely to be replaced if lost.
The Life of Pi
I have to admit I just jumped to the last page. Life is way too short.
It does seem
to go on for infinity....
It does go on forever
But at least it doesn't get repetitive.
Is this a circular
argument?
I read it years ago...
...and I think I liked it. Wasn't he named after a swimming pool or something other just as daft....and his name is pronounced Pee...hehe!
I remember wondering why the tiger didn't just eat him....is a tiger smart enough to work out that if it ate the human that it'd very soon be fucked too?
For those who don't know the story, the boy and the tiger are together in a lifeboat after the ship they were on sunk.
Life is what you make of it...so beautiful, or so what..
...according to Paul Simon anyway!
John Le Carre
Found TTSS a real struggle. About 200 pages of "he's betraying him, and he's betraying them, the other one's working for the US and the UK and the USSR and Todmodern District Council all at the same time" I lost patience and just thought, thank fuck the Cold War's over.