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We do not actually exist: official

Stephen Merrick's picture

One of my favourite podcasts is Philosophy Bites. They offer bite-size primers on key philosophical trains of thought, and interview a lot of the big movers and shakers in the philosophical world.

Anyway, this week's podcast has officially blown my mind. I had never heard of this guy before, but Nick Bostrom has used elegant logic to pretty much convince me that we are all actually simulated people living in a computer program.

Sounds far-fetched and a bit like The Matrix? Well, his website http://www.simulation-argument.com is very convincing. Basically, if we accept that it is theoretically POSSIBLE to create a computer simulated reality so complex it even convinces its simulated inhabitants they are real, then we have to accept the very strong statistical likelihood that we ourselves are simulated people living in such a simulated reality.

Woooah...

0

OK

Get me out then.

1
drilltime | 18 August 2011 - 9:31pm

Yes, but

I don't disagree; I've had the same thought myself -- my life might be a mobile phone game played by some kid on his way to school in a more advanced civilization.

Conversely, if the multiverse hypothesis is correct, then there are unimaginable numbers of parallel universes, many containing different versions of me.

But whatever it is, it's not going to change how I'm going about my life, as it's virtually certain I'll spend my life in ignorance of it.

2
Brookster | 18 August 2011 - 9:37pm

Weeeell...

Does God exist?
Does it matter?

1
Mark Godden | 18 August 2011 - 9:36pm

I have the same conversation with...

...a friend who's into mathematics/physics about theoretical mathematics - the stuff that's so complex and esoteric that it doesn't actually exist except in the brains of a tiny number of human beings, who perform calculations/decades of research with it all which then leads to even more rarified 'discoveries' in the field, etc, etc...

But none of it seems real to me. And even if it is, it doesn't affect me (my friend disagrees). And even if it is, I don't care about it (my friend can hardly refute that!). I have another friend who became obsessed with mathematics during a period in which he seemed to abandon real life, his music, his career. I'm told (by the first friend) that people who go mad often slip into mathematics.

0
Colin H | 18 August 2011 - 11:14pm

The fact that pi

isn't exactly 3, and that the atom can be split, were pretty abstruse in their day, the latter not remaining abstruse very long though ...I take it you aren't planning to stand in front of an H-bomb saying "I refute thee thus" ...

I agree that theoretical maths looks about as abstruse as the Glass Bead Game. It was Wigner who remarked on its "unreasonable effectiveness" in physics, I don't know of anyone who's put it better since ...

0
SpaceBoy | 19 August 2011 - 9:05am

the Glass Bead Game

Surely not the same glass bead game that I have played?

Would strong drink be recommended before starting?

0
jackthebiscuit | 20 August 2011 - 3:29pm

Might well be advisable, yes

... the Glass Bead Game, whose exact nature remains elusive and whose devotees occupy a special school within Castalia known as Waldzell. The rules of the game are only alluded to, and are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Playing the game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. Essentially the game is an abstract synthesis of all arts and sciences. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics

.

--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glass_Bead_Game

0
SpaceBoy | 22 August 2011 - 8:20am

Really?

I thought it was something to do with sex toys.

0
jackthebiscuit | 22 August 2011 - 10:49am

I think Steppenwolf

is rather better known ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppenwolf_(novel)

0
SpaceBoy | 22 August 2011 - 8:19pm

Ah, but

is it the madness that has driven them to mathematics? Or is it the mathematics that has driven them mad?

Go ask the hookah smoking caterpillar...

0
Stephen Merrick | 19 August 2011 - 11:34am

Personally

I like the Douglas Adams explanation that the population of the universe is exactly zero and anyone you happen to meet is a figment of your deranged imagination.

2
Riccardo Gargiulo | 18 August 2011 - 9:39pm

I am reminded

of the stoner gibberish of Donald Sutherland's character in "Animal House".
Don't get me wrong, it's great fun and makes your head tingle but i feel it can distract from the real issues in this world/hologram/robot's dream/chicken curry.
No real original ideas either, just sifted through modern technology.
When i was young i thought everyone turned into a monster/alien when i looked round. No one offered me a book deal or a guest slot on "Thinking Allowed".
Probably because they were monsters, right??

Light entertainment for the heavy duty.

1
drilltime | 18 August 2011 - 10:01pm

Blogito...

ergo sum.

3
Patrick Crowther | 18 August 2011 - 10:31pm

I have spent most of my life

believing I am part of some Truman Show type existence. Nothing would surprise me because none of it makes any sense in my tiny mind, I've given up caring where we came from as I can barely cope with where we are.

2
Dave Amitri | 18 August 2011 - 10:59pm

Here's a philosophical question for you...

Jim Carrey: Why?

0
Patrick Crowther | 18 August 2011 - 11:02pm

I forgive him everything else

for "Cable Guy"

2
Dave Amitri | 18 August 2011 - 11:06pm

I haven't seen that one...

Does he pull stupid faces in it?

0
Patrick Crowther | 18 August 2011 - 11:08pm

Not so many

but he acts a psychopath very convincingly, worth a look.

0
Dave Amitri | 18 August 2011 - 11:12pm

Great film

His deranged Karaoke take on Somebody To Love is one of my favourite cover versions.

0
Kevin_McGee | 19 August 2011 - 10:52am

Not funny!Really?

0
bricameron | 22 August 2011 - 9:32pm

'The Roy Wood Story'?

0
stimpy | 20 September 2011 - 7:51pm

nick bostrum is an interesting guy

he should be on telly more. He has a lot of striking ideas. Quite a few seem barmy, but aren't...

His virtual reality idea has been taken further by others. The argument goes why bother with processor time on constructing a whole world of sims when you could produce one individual sim who thinks they are interacting with the world.....so maybe I am the ONLY full construct in this game and you are just here to keep me from noticing The Man Behind The Curtain....or maybe not, eh?

0
BigJimBob | 19 August 2011 - 10:31am

Ideas that seem barmy but aren't

My favourite kind of ideas.

0
Stephen Merrick | 19 August 2011 - 11:31am

A common problem

There is a strong tendency to explain things in terms of computers. Just because we humans invented them, and they are ace, we have a tendency to project our own 'little god' persona onto everything we also think is ace. The number of times I have heard the human brain explained in terms of a computer just staggers me. It's completely wrong.

Nevertheless it is an interesting 'koan' I suppose.

1
Devadip Cliff R... | 19 August 2011 - 1:23am

Hang on...

I’m not speaking from any sort of qualified perspective but...
1) Simple probability theory is a red herring. Just because one thing is likely, does not mean something else isn’t likely too. I get this all the time in my other life: I read analyses that say “There’s a 70% likelihood that “x” will happen” which sounds likely; but then they say “ah, but there’s also a 65% likelihood that a quite different “y” will happen, and a 40% probability that ‘z’ will happen. Simple probability doesn’t sit very well with my brain. So yes, this might be likely; but it’s also equally likely we are all fish, something very nasty will happen somewhere in the world today (let’s hope it doesn’t), that I am Danny Baker etc etc. Which leads me onto
2) Many years ago a dearly loved, hugely intelligent friend of mine had a very troubled time in his teens wrapping himself round with this kind of stuff. I feel the author is trying to make a point, allowing the publicity machine to roll unchecked, and not overtly taking responsibility for the people making ‘misfiring compliments’ (his words on the front page of his site)

Usual waivers apply: I could be wrong, I’ve only had a quick look at the site, a quick look at the article, I know nothing...

0
Count Grassi | 19 August 2011 - 7:35am

CG - not sure if I agree

Many years ago a dearly loved, hugely intelligent friend of mine had a very troubled time in his teens wrapping himself round with this kind of stuff.

many people in the same situation wrap themselves in religion. In both cases, I don't think the ideas themselves are the cause of these troubled times.

1
BigJimBob | 19 August 2011 - 10:58am

Good call

.. it's not the idea itself that is the problem, it's the effect a similar idea had in that particular situation.

0
Count Grassi | 19 August 2011 - 11:38am

Surely Fraser

runs the Matrix anyway ?

Shouldn't we just ask him ...

2
SpaceBoy | 19 August 2011 - 8:42am

Is it just me

I take the opposite interpretation of the original article - not that we must now be in a simulation, but that such simulations are not possible. This from the very final sentence:

"Unless we are now living in a simulation, our descendants will almost certainly never run an ancestor-simulation"

It's similar to the argument for the impossibility of time-travel: if it were possible, then our descendants would be travelling back to tell us about it.

1
Steve Riddle | 19 August 2011 - 8:50am

There's nothing in physics

that expressly forbids time travel; after all, the laws of physics work in both directions of time. And time runs more slowly in an aeroplane than on the ground for example. I think the issues are:

* The mind-boggling practical difficulties of building a time machine
* The high probability that something in the universe exists to prevent the horrendous causality issues that would arise if someone did start travelling through time

0
Brookster | 19 August 2011 - 9:09am

One suggestion is

that time travel is only possible to and from the machine once it is switched on, i.e. you open a door which was previously locked. Therefore, we haven't seen any time-travelers as a machine hasn't been invented yet. This guy is a proper physicist who has published research papers on the possibility of time travel and is currently trying to build a time machine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Mallett

0
BigJimBob | 19 August 2011 - 10:43am

Yes, you can take the opposite viewpoint

and this is part of the beauty of the logic.

There are three conclusions, and you can ponder it and think about which is most likely. Personally, I feel the first two conclusions are unlikely, which is why I have plumped for number three: we are in a computer!

0
Stephen Merrick | 19 August 2011 - 11:25am

Am I happy?

Yes.

Does it matter whether life is real or a computer game or an abstract concept or anything else if I'm happy?

No.

(Is this a rather selfish approach? Yes, but I can't cure cancer or solve global poverty and I'm trying to lead a decent life.)

0
Mark JF | 19 August 2011 - 9:31am

A good point

Even if we are part of a computer simulated reality, the actual overall structure and control of this by vastly superior beings is likely to be something that is forever out of our intellectual grasp. So out of grasp that it is reasonable to regard it as meaningless. In other words, it doesn't matter.

0
Stephen Merrick | 19 August 2011 - 11:28am

erm,

I always tend to take any assumptions of there being 'vastly superior beings' running the show with a generous pinch of salt.

0
Whytey | 29 August 2011 - 1:27am

Which is why

you should follow the link I put at the start of this thread!

0
Stephen Merrick | 30 August 2011 - 9:22pm

Anyone who thinks such a thing

believes the world revolves around them.

0
Five-Centres | 19 August 2011 - 10:53am

Official

How did you get from a mildly diverting intellectual theory to 'We do not actually exist: Official'?

0
Spartacus Mills | 19 August 2011 - 10:57am

A combination

of glibness and a genuine belief that it's a very strong theory!

This isn't just someone trotting out the ages old (and quite legitimate) postulation that "nothing is real". It's not a skeptical viewpoint. It's an actual positive logical piece of reasoning: if you accept the (on the face of it, quite reasonable) premise that simulated environments are both possible and likely to happen at some point, then the chances are we are in a simulated environment now.

I think that's quite a neat piece of logic, and I've never seen someone express it so beautifully before.

0
Stephen Merrick | 19 August 2011 - 11:23am

Interesting stuff

Many scientists today believe our universe is a computer programme. Many more believe every possibility opens a new universe. There is a range of views in the Deterministic school and at the hardcore end some of our finest minds will tell you that the thing you call 'free will' is an illusion. But none of these hypotheses are really scientific being neither testable nor capable of being disproved. And irrespective of which, if any, is correct the next time you stub your toe it will hurt as much as it ever did.
Using the computer as a paradigm in these times is inevitable. Newton's universe was like a clockwork mechanism that a God had set working and the laws of thermodynamics were a product of the steam age. But a lot of ground is being gained by thinking of things as fundamentally information. You can consider the DNA molecule as a gloop of organic gunge or as an information storage system. Superposition (the cat's neither alive or dead until you check) can be seen as reality being created by the unlocking of information.
And then there is (cough) "The Code" - the extent to which mathematical laws describe and govern the reality in which we live. This fact alone is a powerful reinforcement of the notion that we are just an app on some cosmic kid's iphone. (Incidentally, not only do the laws of physics work irrespective of the direction of time, but if time stopped everywhere in the universe and was restarted the next morning - in cosmic kid time - we would not notice as the physical universe would be unchanged and there would be no possibility of finding evidence that this had happened). As with Determinism there is a whole spectrum of opinion on the place of maths. At one end are those who believe it is just a tool created by humans while way down the other end are those who believe maths exists independently of the universe and, in fact, the universe couldn't have come into being had maths not already been there. (And any 'omnipotent' creator would be a slave to its laws when designing the universe).
Good for you if you're happy without all of this hoopla but it's this kind of headfuckery that perks me up of a rainy afternoon...

4
STD | 19 August 2011 - 11:25am

Does it really matter?

We won't really ever know for sure and we'll not be able to do anything about it - will we? - and if we could, what would we do?
Nowt, unless Keanu turns up.

Any road up, I'm going for a lie down with a nice Richard Dawkins...

0
Johnimator | 20 September 2011 - 7:46pm

Ach!

It's all just time. Haven't you noticed that I've come back here to comment, nearly a whole MONTH after everyone else has had their say?
Hello?
Hello?

0
Johnimator | 20 September 2011 - 8:46pm

Who designed and built the computer?

And the software. And who is running the thing and why?

0
Baskerville Old Face | 19 August 2011 - 12:04pm

Steve Jobs.

We're all living an imaginary iLife in Steve's iReality game. When we die (iDeath) we go to iHeaven, unless we purchased Windows kit during our iLife in which case we go to Hell. There is no iHell as this is clearly a contradiction in terms. There is, however, an iPurgatory and this is symbolised by a spinning beachball.

2
Mark JF | 19 August 2011 - 12:23pm

iDeath

is the name of the imaginary place in Richard Brautigan's "In Watermelon Sugar", written in (*frantically combs internet*) 1968.

I love Brautigan, me.

0
man.of.soup | 19 August 2011 - 4:42pm

If we are living in a computer simulation

we should be be profoundly dismayed that our technologically-advanced decendants have such a monumentally piss-poor grasp of ethics. This profound dismay will inevitably snowball as people gradually come to understand the implications of the simulations such that by the time we are technologically capable, our extremely advanced and universally-adopted ethical standards will prevent us from ever implementing them.

Sorted.

Who wants a pint?

0
Fraser M | 19 August 2011 - 12:40pm

iReality

If our existence is merely a reflection of the Book of Jobs, is the counter-personality Bill Gates of Hell? We should be wary of plucking the Apple from our iTree of iLife. Samsung in church will surely continue, even if all we have to look forward to is iReboot.

1
Baskerville Old Face | 19 August 2011 - 12:42pm

The simulation argument has been around for a while

Try Ken MacLeod's The Restoration Game for a contemporary sci-fi take on whether or not we're all living in a big sim

0
Glenbervie | 19 August 2011 - 5:37pm

But why would the computer simulation allow us

to conceive of this dastardly set-up? Surely they'd make sure we could never come up with the idea ourselves?

1
Douglas | 20 August 2011 - 3:14pm

Because

Even if we are in a simulation, it's essentially unprovable. But statistically possible.

How do you know I'm not a clever computer program?

0
Brookster | 20 August 2011 - 4:38pm

True

On further reflection (yes, this sort of stuff does keep me interested) I would have thought that the whole argument falls down when you take away the central assumption that the programmer's universe bears any relation to the one we observe. Why must the same rules apply to him? He could make us perceive reality any way he wants ( and of course he'd have to be male, wouldn't he!).

Neat theory, but ultimately meaningless (IMHO) except where it touches upon the topic of consciousness, which is where I get seriously out of my depth - I refer the gentleman to Dr Susan Blackmore:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/ns02.htm

0
Douglas | 21 August 2011 - 10:00am

How does that falsify the argument?

Programmers could program their own physical laws into the simulation or different physical laws. Why does doing the latter disprove the whole premise?

0
Brookster | 22 August 2011 - 9:24am

It doesn't, it just makes it less plausible

Sorry - sloppy language in my earlier post. The point I was trying to make is that, for this particular argument to work, you have to assume that the programmer's universe is very similar to ours, and there's no particular reason to assume that.

You then fall back onto Occam's Razor (ouch), as you're having to make unsubstantiated assumptions.

It's still technically possible, of course, rather like Bertrand Russell's teapot, and like the teapot it's more interesting (to me anyway) as a thought experiment than a genuine theory.

0
Douglas | 22 August 2011 - 9:35pm

the cure

CTRL+ALT+DELETE...

0
BigE | 20 August 2011 - 4:30pm

That implies the simulation is running under Windows...

which surely can't be the case as it'd have crashed by now? :-)

0
stimpy | 20 August 2011 - 5:29pm

Have you ever

caught a virus?

0
Stephen Merrick | 20 August 2011 - 7:00pm

I think

Ctrl-Alt-Delete works on Linux as well. Which is running most supercomputers these days.

0
Brookster | 20 August 2011 - 5:32pm
STD | 20 August 2011 - 6:12pm

its certainly a lot more plausible than......

....the belief that we were created by a higher being out there (the subject of other previous threads).

as the great Lemmy nails that particular theory in his lucid and entertaining memoirs: "I mean, you teach people that the Messiah was the offspring of a vagabond's wife (who is a virgin) and a ghost? and this is a basis for a worldwide religion? I'm not so sure. I figured if Joseph believed that one he deserved to live in stables".

3
rocker43 | 20 August 2011 - 6:07pm

I'd love to meet the

f...er that's controlling my life then. Some sloppy Chinese kid at a 24hr internet cafe in another dimension who keeps falling asleep on the job.

When you think about it 'reality' exists for a fraction of a second at a time - rthe past is gome ie when I started writing this message, never to return, the future merely a range of possibilities contingent on the consequences of my actions and those beyond my control ie that fat chinese kid asleep in the 'black hole' arcade.

It has been suggested - glances nervously from side to side, lowers voice - that our universe is simply a holographic image of some kind. In fact that theory is the only thing that makes sense of the 'black hole' enigma where 'nothing exists'...

0
niscum | 23 August 2011 - 3:43pm

This is just a

Rush lyric as prose...

0
Fraser M | 24 August 2011 - 9:37am

Hmmmmm....

I've actually suspected the simulation theory for a long time...pre-Matrix even. Maybe we're just some wort of mundane metafiction for superpowerful godlike beings that marvel at how ordinary our lives are...

0
ferris09bueller | 24 August 2011 - 1:03pm

It's a paradox

If we are just a figment of someone's or something's imagination, how come we have free will? Or is that an illusion too? Bit troubling that, coz if we don't then why bother with anything at all...

I recall a long discussion I had with an old friend called Tony when, under the influence of certain things, we determined that we didn't exist.Imagine our surprise when there came a knock on the door and it was my Mum telling me to "Turn the music down, it's three o'clock in the morning. Hasn't he got a home to go to?"

0
xorg | 25 August 2011 - 8:42pm

One could as easily theorize..

any number of 'possible' situations, but theorizing doesn't translate into an actuality.

As for accepting the notion that 'we don't exist', the next logical step is to conclude our actions have no meaning. So, go ahead and do anything you want to anyone you want - you aren't actually harming a real person.

Any takers?

0
sourdust | 29 August 2011 - 2:20am

It's not "the next logical step".

It's just a step that we can choose to make or not. Although the whole "running on a simulation" notion would mean that we don't exist corporeally, even in a sim we certainly do/would exist in every other sense (thinking, feeling, interacting, perceiving, issuing, causing, effecting etc).
The OP's sense of "we don't exist" only applies to the physical body - and I would reckon that all the ontological issues surrounding existence apply in the same way whether the substrate is a mammalian brain or a server belonging to space aliens.

0
Glenbervie | 21 September 2011 - 9:41am
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