Entertainment For Lively Minds
Velvet Underground : Overrated ?
My question is this. I quite like the Velvet Underground and believe they deserve a respected status, but is it's iconic nature entirely merited in terms of overall musical quality ? They were and are undoubtedly an excellent catalyst for many bands of widley varying talent and ability, from ground breaking and inspired to derivative and atrocious. They deserve to belong to the category of artists that inspired others, including the HJH, Dylan, Stones etc. They were a necessary alternative to the prevailing Flower Power culture. Exceptional songs iclude Sunday Morning, Venus In Furs, Waiting For The Man,Sweet Jane, Pale Blue Eyes, but honestly, Sister Ray ? The Black Angel's Death Song ? Europen Son ? The Gift ?
I think their first and third albums are, all in all, pretty damn good. However, I think that White Light White Heat is an overrated load of unlistenable pretentious tosh. When the VU were on form they were quite special, but when they were not, which frankly was quite a lot of material, I think they were extremely dull and tedious.
Any thoughts ?
- More from RobertC.
- Login or register to post comments
-
the missing link
between punk rock, r+b and rockabilly.
without the VU, what would we have today..?
no heavy metal, no mybloodyvalentine and all that they entail, no indie scene from the last 20 years, no breaking down the barriers of standard song formats...
never over-rated, always under-rated by people who want nice safe music.
Blinkered?
Being a bit of a fan of The Dame in my youth, I bought into the brilliance of Iggy, Lou, The Velvets etc. Now, looking back, in hindsight they really weren't that great. were they?
Like The Doors, If they had kept going for another five or ten years would they still have such iconic status?
I bought the first Velvets album, and no, I didn't form a band. That's that theory knacked then...
they really weren't that great. were they?
Um... yes they were.
The Velvet Underground had 2 great albums and did some exceptional things.
Lou Reed gave us 2 perfect solo albums in Berlin and Transformer
Reed and Cale also released the fantastic, moving and haunting album about their relationship with Andy Warhol Songs For Drella which I severely recommend (but spotify doesn't stock)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_for_Drella
Iggy Pop is amazing, and is frequently overlooked because of his more stupid moments. When he is on he is really on, and he was as much responsible for reinvigorating Bowie as Bowie was for directing him. And he still makes great records on and off:
The Doors however are really more a great idea than a great band. They had about 5 perfect songs but are not in the same league I would say as The Velvets, Iggy, Lou Reed. And unlike The Doors that ended when Morrison did, Iggy and all the members of the velvets have not died, they have kept producing work and developing as artists.
They deserve to be icons and they also deserve to be listened to properly.
Strange Days
by The Doors, is the one of the ultimate psychedelic creepy genius albums re. 67. Followed by, Forever Changes. Lou and chums, fair enough in their Warhol haven, but really... VU could not match that sinister visit.
the doors...
were very much an image of a cartoon psychedelic band to me... all that mythical posturing and prima-donna behaviour.
just listen to "these are a few of my favourite things" by john coltrane, then "take five" by dave brubeck... followed by "light my fire" by the doors, and you'll hear just how plagiarist they are.
forever changes by love, though... words couldn't how brilliant that album is.
and they had their moments of sinister weirdness on other albums.
but if you don't own "forever changes"... you don't know music.
Wipe Out
Me and mates played a game of Which group or artist would you like to have wiped out of history so that neither their music nor their influence would exist? VU for me.
it has to be said
that the VU were never going to affirm the guardian-reader lifestyle choices of some music listeners.
it's safe to say that if you're the sort of person who wants to buy into music as some sort of aural furniture, or that you don't read a lot and have no concept of story-telling in music... then you'll never "get" the velvets.
without the VU, no art-rock either... no cross-over between performance art/classical music/rock&roll, no atonal LOUD guitar music(with all due repsect to the fuggs and MC5 etc...), no "sex" in music, or Pixies.
you can trace their influence all the way to say, DJ Shadow and anyone who was ever influenced by him in turn... so there's more than a rock/guitar side to their legacy.
and no alternative to the flower-power nonsense of the late 60's.
without the VU, we'd all be listening to white-bread wonders like doris day.
or lilly allen.
i bet you
Lilly Allen likes the Velvet Underground.
i started with an open mind
but it closed ... having heard jerry hall interviewing david bailey about andy warhol on R4 lately, it became absolutely clear that warhol was an insupportable chancer with the depth of a puddle ... negating i think Songs For Drella for a start ... (except as a tribute to a much missed chum) ... and after sifting through the atonal VU noise that probably sounded so "now, baby" in a manhattan shed in 1967, we're left with a journeyman bassist, a bad drummer, one member who could turn a decent melody and an avant-welshman (albeit a very talented example of the breed) ... (and a droning german smack user on guest vocals) ... between them they managed two albums before falling out ... (or 17 tunes in total) ... many of which (Sunday Morning, Femme Fatale, All Tomorrow's Parties, There she Goes Again etc) were well within recognisable poppy idioms ... and so on ...
So that's a yes then?
Your surgical insight leaves little room for negotiation. I'm not too concerned about whether the bass player can play in 9/8 or whether the viola player is from Wales, or how they amused themselves in their spare time. I like the sound they made. Pure and simple.
i just get a little antsy around didacticism
iconic VU v baaad hippies, for example
hell, i even own VU/cale/reed albums and they may have been the best thing to swirl out of that nexus of NYC artiness in the latter half of the 1960s but i think they're guilty of believing their own advertising ... plus there were lots of bands who were sexier, if not many that fiddled around (with) S&M ...
I agree ...
...I don't like the artsy aloof pretence that seems to surround them. But when you listen to the VU Live album, it feels vital, alive and exciting. I'm not a huge fan, and I really can't stomach Lou 'misery guts' Reed, but at their best they seem possessed by a complete committment to their cause. And that, in my view, marks them out as special.
i think trusting jerry hall and david bailey to be the most
perceptive assessors of Andy Warhol is perhaps a mistake.
Like Malcolm MacClaren and many other pop music impresarios there are flaws to Warhol, but their are also great positive and artistic strengths.
Plus Warhol's influence stretches out further than the VU and he was a majorly important channeler of and commentator on Popular Culture. His ideas are part of our vocabulary the way Shakespeare phrases are. Famous for 15 minutes anyone? He's launched as many bad things as good, like the VU themselves, but he launched them. And they had an effect.
He always designed himself to have the depth of a puddle in the way he came across but he was clearly a liar on that score. Read his autobiography it is fascinating. Listen to songs for drella. It isn't always a positive view of Warhol, containing much criticism of him and of John and Lou as well, but it comes across as an honest window on something real.
On other issues Maureen Tucker was an excellent and interesting drummer. Her unconventional standing up and hitting the drums with mallets style and refusal to use the cymbals didn't mean she wasn't in time, she was in time and she needed to be with all the rest going on around her. But her drums had character as did she.
The fact that Lou Reed writes pop melodies but uses refreshingly trashy/literary lyrics is not a bad thing at all and having him in the centre (along with Maureen's drumming) gave the more avaunt guard experimental elements of the songs a grounding they sorely needed, resulting in something both artistic and poppy and engaging.
Nico was a great singer the way Shane McGowan or Ian Curtis were great, the flaws lent the music so much more. She was a further iconic dimension to the mix, which with the Warhol cover and the Exploding Plastic Inevitable show really made the whole thing move and shake the foundations of pop music.
I think their music still sounds relevant and powerful now. Much more than many. But regardless the question is are they influential or are they over-rated. And if we rate people by their influence (which is not necessarily a good criteria) then they certainly are.
ok
i have a long train journey tomorrow so if FOPP has the warhol autobiog before i get on the train, i shall investigate further and report back although...
"As time passes he [Warhol] will be remembered as a bizarre character in the post-war consumer boom. As for his art, only his screen prints of Marilyn Monroe, executed with surprising verve in a highly original, often plaintive palette, will survive as evidence of his response to an even more famous and much more tragic, more talented yet no less painted life."
Julian Spalding, The Eclipse of Art, 2003
I'd argue with the assertion that Mo Tucker was
"a good drummer".
She could hit a drum in time. Many people can do that, but it doesn't make them a drummer.
Ah...
Not even Mo Tucker would argue she was a good drummer. But she was perfect for the Velvet Underground. Neil Peart would have ruined the band.
But
Strangely,Mo would have made Rush far better (IMHO)
Tiny Tim would have made
Tiny Tim would have made Rush far better...
He
Was rather a geddy lee soundalike. Rush:Why? A good title for a thread.
its hard to successfully argue a matter of opinion
since there is no defined scientific, factual assessment for it one is a good drummer.
I think she was good. Not just because she hit the drums in time (although the fact that she did that surely makes her a competent drummer) but because she had the right vibe, the right attitude, and she did some interesting things to the drum kit, she did some stuff that was new, and that is part of my criteria for good.
Of course if you're criteria for good is based on different things, like if she could flit from 7/8 to 5/4 or whatever then it would make sense for you to disagree.
Although some of the best drummers in terms of technique leave me pretty cold. I like ones with good spirit, ones with good innovation, and crucially as Fraser Lewry mentions, ones who are right for the band.
That said I take issue with your assessment of what makes someone a drummer (not a good or a bad one but a drummer!). I would say the definition of a drummer is surely someone who hits drums in time. In fact I would think that the "in time" but is probably optional.
Wikipedia defines a drummer as: "A drummer is a person who plays drums, particularly a drum kit ("drum set" or "trap set", which will also include cymbals), marching percussion or hand drums." (for a longer version see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drummer)
Maureen Tucker was a drummer because she played a drum. Specifically an adapted version of a drum kit. She was a competent drummer because she played in time. You have even agreed that.
Now is she a bad drummer, a good drummer, a great drummer... that's up to us all to decide for ourselves. For me she is a good one. I'd happily play in a band with her on drums. I love the work she did on the VU albums.
I'd agree she was appropriate for the band
in the same way the Bonham was appropriate for Zeppelin and Bill Bruford was appropriate for Crimso.
The most important attribute for a drummer is exactly that - they need to be appropriate for the style and spirit of the band.
BUT... not everyone who hits a drum is a drummer; not every drummer is a good drummer :-)
Ah, Grasshopper...
... if a drum is hit in the middle of a forest, then who is to say the drum has been struck?
The noise abatement officer?
I personally don't
play it safe, whatever that means. As well as a lot of mainstream music, I like mid 60s Coltrane, Miles, Mahavishnu, late period Waits, Amon Duul etc etc, and Can's fantastic Tago Mago, a recent discovery for me, is far more out there than the VU could ever be. I don't mind working for a great listen. I actually think the VU, who I do like, were far better the less 'out there' they were. Lou Reed wrote some great songs but as an experimenter ? Not for me. John Cale's yer man. I think his solo work is streets ahead of Lou Reed's. You have to pretty much be a genius to pull off experimental, just as much as great pop and rock. I think the VU were good at the latter. That is why I think the third album is demonstrably superior to the second. In my view you can't have passable experimental, like you can most other genres.
It's either right there, or a wasted effort.
Thrilling and original
The Velvets still sound like no-one else with their relentless rhythm guitar, booming drums, moaning viola, deadpan vocals and Lou Reed's lyrics. No other band has created so many dark and thrilling songs.
While the production is dodgy on the first LP and the third LP is patchy, White Light White Heat is superb - Sister Ray is one of the most exciting songs and The Gift is hilarious.
You only have to listen to the bland meanderings of The Band, Crosby, Stills and Nash or any of the other hippy drivellers around in the late 60s to realise how vital the Velvets were/are.
that pretty much nails it
...
God's Teeth, Sir !
Are ye Mad ? The Band... bland meanderings !!!
Nurse ! my tincture, and be quick ! I've fallen of the chaise lounge
and flattened the Pomeranian...
Interesting
It is interesting that there is often a juxtaposition in discussions around this subject between black clad useless musicians who sit around looking moody and "arty" vs good musicians whole make wonderful life affirming music. I think we can agree that the absence of any real legacy from the VU, other than feeble copies such as the Mary Chain or the unsuccessful aspects of David Bowie, demonstrates their irrelevance in the history of popular music. Unless that black clad smackhead shtick does it for you, and I recognise that there is a vocal minority for whom it does. Personally give me a Martin D-45 and patched jeans any time.
Very intertesting
Sorry, I don't think it's simple as that - all members of the Velvets were/are superb musicians and often performed beautiful, delicate songs (eg: Pale Blue Eyes).
They've influenced a huge variety of artistes, from Jonathan Richman and punk bands to the Wedding Present and other indie bands.
The Velvets' appeal has little to do with black clothes/drug references and while I'm not averse to some acoustic guitar stuff from the late 60s/early 70s, I had to take the momentous decision to switch off Brian Matthew on Saturday because Crosby Stills and Nash were playing an interminable Judy Blue Eyes (oooh the harmonies, MAAAAN!)
"little to do with ... drug references"?
Come off it.
The Noo Yawk roach infested walk-up apartments, the black leather jackets, the clubs, the transvestites, the hookers, the dope, it's all part of the essential nonsense that is the VU romance of underground city culture. And it's the blind belief in and vicarious thrill of association with these urban myths that seduces many of their uncritical and very vocal champions.
"Jackie is just speeding away" "Valium woulda helped that crash" "Twenty-six dollars in my hand ... Feel sick and dirty, more dead than alive" "'Cause it makes me feel like I'm a man, when I put a spike into my vein". etc etc
perfectly put
VV
Yes but, no but...
There are songs about drugs, of course, but I said their appeal has little to do with drug references. I've never heard anyone say they like the Velvets because of the number of illegal substances they mention.
actually
that kind-of describes what i got up to in my late teens and early 20's...
fun at the time, but most of the people who were heavily into the drugs are now dead...
"The Noo Yawk roach infested walk-up apartments, the black leather jackets, the clubs, the transvestites, the hookers, the dope, it's all part of the essential nonsense that is the VU romance of underground city culture."
i still have my old black leather belt from those days, only it fits me now because i work-out, not because i wasn't eating properly...
Lucky
The "hippies" never sang about drugs then isn't it? I always saw the New York late sixties scene as an antedote to the god awful touchy feely sunshine music of the west coast.
Well, that simplifies things then doesn't it?
Presumably it kicks into touch:
The Byrds, Jimi Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, The Grateful Dead, Sopwith Camel, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, The Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, Country Joe & The Fish, The Beau Brummels, Janis Joplin, Tonto's Expanding Head Band, The Doors, Frank Zappa & The Mothers, Gram Parsons, The Eagles, It's A Beautiful Day, Poco, Moby Grape, Santana, The Charlatans, Quicksilver Messenger Service, NRPS, The Doobies, Buffalo Springfield or The Chocolate Watchband, to name a few,
who all represent "god awful touchy feely sunshine music of the west coast".
Err ?
Think you rather misunderstood me there. I said I saw it as an antidote to that stuff,I didn't say I don't like all other types of music,It's just nice to get away from the "all so positive" stuff once in a while.
Writing off a whole style of music would be ludicrous and make one just like the anti punk brigade on here.
My other point though was that to criticise the VU for writing about drugs is pretty preposterous when the west coast was just as f#cked up writing about them as well.
Fair do's.
I wasn't criticising the VU for writing about drugs per se, it's just that I have the impression that they have gained a lot of followers precisely because of the NY heroin chic thing, which is a bit sad.
And PS: I love Nuggets and The Calico Wall stuff; I even bought the big fat boxed set version of the former, for when I want to get, er, boxed, and leap around a bit (rarer than ever these days, hey ho).
Just
started physio-therapy for a knackered back so my leaping days are behind me too now.
Same goes for loud music.after seeing the Stooges a while back I decided to give up on very loud gigs.Damn ears were ringing for days.
Limit myself to mainly acoustic stuff now.
Isn't ageing grand?
um... what if you like both arty and life affirming music?
Like many of us do I would imagine.
I think some of the songs by the VU can be described as life affirming. They were certainly talented musicians. Lou Reed being a natural pop song writer and John Cale being a classically trained fantastic experimenter.
Their legacy is immense, whether it is bands you like or not there are many many bands across the spectrum who would class the VU as their influences.
Joy Division for one, who became New Order who do life affirming pretty damn well. Then there's REM. There's even U2 for goodness sake. Many punks put the VU as one of their influences. Then you have metal. You have indie music, low fi music, much of which is life affirming (sometimes Mawkishly so). One of the biggest influences on the recent "indie" blockbuster Juno was surely the VU and that is a pretty far reaching mainstream popular culture influence.
This is not to say any band should really be put on a pedestal or anything. But the velvets have influenced all sorts of bands, many life affirming bands, and have certainly influenced a lot more than people who like smackhead shtick. It would not surprise me if soon X Factor contestants don't do cover versions of say Sunday Morning, just as they now do Hallelujah. Atomic Kitten did Blondie didn't they? People like songs with light and dark in.
Sir
You are so spot on!
good band
Not great though.
That
pretty much nails it. They had their moments, but that's all.
good call
comparing tago mago to the VU, - it's a fantastic album and i think it sits well alongside VU material.
i'd easily recommend either band... when i first heard can, i was probably just as blwon away by them as you were!
lou reed did push a few songwriting parameters in his time, esp. when he was "out there" on various substances...
"walk on the wild side" was probably the second ever pop record to to talk about cross-dressing(with "i'm a boy" by the who), but it's such a deep song with a lot depth to it... it got inot the charts talking about running away from home, isolation, degradation... and men in tights!
berlin, coney island baby, street hassle, the blue mask, the list goes on.
john cale wrote some stunning solo material himself(and with brian eno), and now that he's got into pro-tools his songwriting has entered a new phase in the last few years...
without the VU no lloyd cole.
and no 50 skiddilion watts record label either.
Cross dressing songs now there's a good thread
Walk On The Wild Side (1972) was pre dated by I'm A Boy (1966) and Lola (1970). Any others?
not a whole song
but there's a bit about a transvestite in "Neighbourhood" by Space
"He's a man by day but he's a woman at night"
well...
Venus As A Boy by Bjork
and pretty much anything by Antony and the Johnsons has an element of cross dressing involved in the lyrics.
Not officially a "song" per se
But 1970's playgrounds of my youth featured this:
# Georgie Best - superstar!
walks like a woman and he wears a bra! #
I submit
that they actually have two underrated albums, the self titled third and Loaded. Many fans and critics gravitate towards the first two and some documentaries on them concentrate soley on the first two albums. I presonally love the self titled third and Loaded where expreimentality starts to give way to strong songwriting.
Loaded
Quite right. I forgot to include that in my opening blog, and you are absolutely right on all counts.
Shifted the shape of my imagination really
I think that quote about them that runs something like - not many people heard the first album but nearly everyone who did formed a band - was pretty spot on
The first time I heard "Waiting for my Man" I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. Fair spun my head around and put it back on upside down. Made me realise life wasn't all cricket and Latin prep. The first time I saw a picture of Nico and heard her sing made me think perhaps all girls were not quite like Lesley Judd.
The reality is I barely - if ever - feel the need to put on any VU these days.
Perhaps the myth outweighs the musical reality. But - oh man - they rocked my world
Rock music doesn't get much more exciting than this
"
Glorious, glorious stuff
Smashing post Martin.
*clicks blue arrow*
Those are their best albums.
By a long chalk, despite the shitty sound. No, hang on, because of the shitty sound. But they're not ground-breaking, they're just of their time and place.
Velvet Underground : Overrated ?
Yes.
Succintly put Stimpy
But I would like to posit a counter-argument. Velvet Underground: overrated? No.
Direct influence on: Yoko Ono, Can, Faust, Neu, Cluster, Bowie, Eno, Modern Lovers, Jesus & Mary Chain, My Bloody Valentine, Pixies, Loop, Spacemen 3, Inspiral Carpets and many many others.
Pulsing, metronomic beats, drugged out lullabyes and fifteen minute freak outs. Who else was doing that in 1966? Zappa maybe.
Yeah,
you didn't really have to mention Yoko Oh No in there, did you?
I knew that would be counter-productive
True, but counter-productive.
It would have been ...
...churlish, not to mention criminal to omit the seminal songstress.
that is
probably the only reference to Yoko Ono in the context of "songs"
For those with an open mind
I would heartily recommend her latset CD as a starting point, as it references pretty much all of her previous styles, and even includes some 'songs'.
Not a question of having an open mind
I consider myself to be pretty open to most things before I make an informed decision. I've heard Yoko in many incarnations over many years; I can say honestly that most of her music leaves me cold. It's a matter of personal choice and taste, nothing to do with having a 'closed mind'.
fair enough
its definately about personal taste and most definately not about people having an open mind. People like what they like.
I like a couple of her tracks. But some of them leave me cold too. But then that's how I feel about John Lennon. But then I only like about 2 90 minute CD's worth of Beatles material to listen to.
People often say that's because I don't fully get the Beatles. But I say no its not its because I only like a limited amount of the Beatles stuff. I've heard it lots and I like what I like. And the stuff I like I love so really I don't know why people don't try and convert people who don't like any of the Beatles and leave me alone. I've made my informed decision.
Here's my favorite Beatles related track:
Agreed
It is really very good. Sean Lennon was the 'musical director' and he basically came up with a rich, varied and utterly accomplished setting for her to do her thing, from olde-worlde stream-of-consciousness, free-association monologues to jazz, New Wave, crunchy, chunky electro and tons more. The woman is 76 and with the right band behind her, sounding great.
I do rate some of her albums, especially the 1970 Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band and 1972 Approximately Infinite Universe. It was easy to dismiss these as vanity projects by Mrs Lennon, but honestly, have a listen and there are some fantastically radical, experimental and thrillingly fresh ideas there. Someone on this board, I think, once drew a comparison between Plastic Ono Band and the atmosphere of PiL's 'Metal Box'. Yoko Ono knew she was going to get grief whatever she did, and after having pretty much abandoned her conceptual art career post '69, channelled herself completely into these albums, without really appearing to give a damn what anyone thought. Which I kind of like.
Any band that lead to this is alright by me
Or this ...
Sunday Morning
Used as the theme for Michael Ball, erm, Sunday Morning show on Radio2.
Now there's widespread influence and exposure.
Are they over-rated? Probably, but if you like them good on ya!
Some of the stuff I like, and believe to be important & influential is viewed by many others as diabolical dross (Captain Beefheart), not as influential/widely known/cared about as I believe (Stiff Little Fingers) or unlistenable kak (Beefheart again, Sham 69, Cockney Rejects, anyththing Punk basically).
Each to their own
street hassle
and no velvet underground, no "mink de ville".
which would have been more than criminal...
Huh?
Mink DeVille were essentially a post-doowop soul outfit. I'm struggling to think of any band less soulful than The Velvet Underground.
"No Sam Cooke/Ben E. King/Arthur Alexander/Garnet Mimms, no Mink DeVille", maybe... but The Velvet Underground?
But wait!
Utterly freaky duet alert!
Sod influence, sod Nico
sod all their cool friends, sod the drugs, sod legacy, sod reformation, sod 'em all. The rock band, head and shoulders over the competition.
http://open.spotify.com/album/3MMWldJNxR62CDBvYgbspJ
http://open.spotify.com/album/0yfum7WjlgZj5P028nznvp
influential? probably for some. over rated? yes
Never really got the VU aside from maybe a few of the songs mentioned at the start of the thread. Lou Reed is a bit like Jeff Beck. People connected to the rock industry go on and on about him as some kind of genius and he's got plenty of intelligent musos for fans. But the vast majority of us who listen to rock music think he's a reasonably talented musician who fronted a reasonably talented though not particularly awe inspiring band. Their work had its moments but was pretty dull, self indulgent and indeed rather depressing for most of the period of their commercial success.
Can I just add that I heard "Walk on the Wild Side" the other day on the radio and I realised how much I hate that record. Its probably the most monotonous, tuneless and over-rated dirge in the history of rock n roll.
Are they over-rated?
Yes indeedy.
Proof required?
One word:
coyote
...I was there. The horror
Plus, "Spanish Stroll" kicks "Sweet Jane"'s arse
Being "influential" is overrated
Who cares whether something's influential? When was the last time you thought to yourself, I feel like listening to something influential? It's either good or it's not. The Beatles were probably the most influential band of all time, but some of the bands they influenced were crap. It doesn't have any bearing on the Fabs themselves.
I don't have any deep feelings about Velvet Underground, although I think that Lou Reed is the most hideously over-rated individual in rock music. Anything good he ever did was usually the product of collaboration with far more talented individuals (ie John Cale or David Bowie). When left to himself he comes up with Metal Machine Music.
lest we forget
that Metal Machine Music was a contractual obligation album, to get him off the hook... and he delivered this huge turkey, with lots of knowingly pretentious waffle about frequency... which was nothing more than a big hearty UP YOURS to the corporation.
I think there's something to
I think there's something to 'rate' about the Velvet Underground in the first place.
The first side of the 3rd LP is pretty good isn't it?
The truly overrated are those about whom there is little to rate in the first place.
My own quick list would include Madonna, Oasis, Pete Doherty, The Verve and The Clash.
to rate
Madonna - almost right but she has a couple of great pop songs e.g. Get Into The Groove and Like A Prayer
Oasis - Definately Maybe, all the early B Sides, half of What's The Story Morning Glory
Pete Doherty - some of the libertines stuff, beg steal or borrow, don't look back into the sun... quite a bit really. He's under-rated (though its his own fault) because his celebrity and crack head exposure has soured us all against him. Give him time... he'll either die or he'll really hit it and then we'll all see the fulfillment of the promise his raw talent suggests.
The Verse - almost right again but they did have The Drugs Don't Work which is an excellent tune and Bittersweet Symphony is good too.
The Clash - um... well since the clash are so good or at least interesting for their entire career really everything they've done stands to disprove you on that.
That's superb
I too think PD is under-rated - Lost Art of Murder is a cracking tune.
He's very charming in that clip isn't he? "Stop smoking.........that"
Image Over Content
did about one and a half a decent album
care to share
which one.
or are we talking about a "greatest hits" that you bought cheap on a whim, and discarded after it made you choke on your red wine?
Oh stop it.
That sort of remark doesn't belong here. Even those of us who think the VU are mostly pants will try to offer some constructive reason why we have that opinion.
constructive debate
is all that's needed.
there's plenty of healthy debate on here, it's just a little churlish to bother to write "didn't like it much" after all the good stuff that's been written before.
maybe a little insight into reasons why you don't like something, other than "they challenged my perceptions and held a mirror to my empty life and just this once i found it wanting, and started to suspect that i had been hoodwinked into a life of bland conformity by my elders - so i put on "the joshua tree" and drank some cocoa..." neatly hidden between the lines of a non-opinion.
You mustn't upset
Any of the self imposed guardians of the Word message board Eightball.Didn't you get the directive.
This thread is like previous punk ones, objectionable to certain people who consider it "not real music"
Well
The OP was asking whether we thought the VU are over rated. Saying you think they are is entirely within the spirit of the thread. Insulting other posters isn't.
Is it me
Or are the naysayers pretty much the same ones who always foam at the mouth about punk not being real music and that music stopped in the mid seventies?
Probably, yes
There's a very good reason for that :-)
Some good tunes
"Venus in Furs", "All Tomorrow's Parties", "I'll Be Your Mirror". Pretty much like any other band, they made a couple of albums, made their minor mark, went their separate ways and we all moved on. Oh.
Thought for the day: If the Velvets had never existed, nor would three-chord landfill indie as we know and don't love it. Are we sure that's the sort of "influential" we want?
those are early songs...
hardly enough to base an opinion on...
if the VU never existed, we wouldn't have had all the good stuff in the 80's... no spacemen3, galaxy500, spectrum, spiritualized, jesusandmarychain and the whole glasgow indie scene(and all those who copied them)...
i'm not so sure there are too many recent "indie" groups who have been influenced by the VU... maybe the last band that fall into that would be the strokes(who sound more like television...).
but the world needs that indolent thrash and the primitive sound.
even although, towards the end of the band's tenure, they were a lot softer and much more laid back(as you would know if you had chanced upon the quine tapes or max's kansas city album), where the songs SHINE through.
CuD would be a supergroup and miles hunt would probably be in charge of the country by now, if it wasn't for the VU.
do you really want that on your conscience?
Quine Tapes first disc...
...Velvets' best songs beautifully performed. The bootlegs were better than their studio albums.
Agree with most of what you say eightball - but the mighty Cud should have been a supergroup!
Influential, yes - but
Influential, yes - but overrated? That's more a consideration of the band themselves, surely, not so much their subsequent impact?
Personally, I thought they were fantastic. The fact that their songs are based on Brill Building pop hack moves is a plus for me.
Footnote: most underrated solo effort - Cale's "Vintage Violence". Is it just me that loves this album? I hope not.
That and 'Paris 1919'
are my favourites.
I have a lot of John Cale's output (including a nice original vinyl copy of The Academy In Peril, with the Warhol cut-out cover) and rate him highly.
I also have a fair smattering of Lou Reed's material, including a ghastly boxed-set bought in a fleeting moment when hope triumphed over experience.
Guess who's albums I actually play.
Both great
and later Cale is still streets ahead of Lou Reed. Both Hobo Sapiens and Black Acetate are very good records. I've been replaying some of the albums and I still think 'and Nico','Velvet Underground' and 'Loaded' contain some damn fine music, far better than the meandering sixth form poetry noodlings of WL/WH . I love the VU when they get it together and stop fecking about, basically. There's only one band in the history of the known cosmos can NOODLE, brilliantly, and we all know who they are.
Just this week
I remember a review in Mojo that stated they were the most influential band of all time. Rubbish.
well....
i once read a review that said "don't believe anything you read in magazines, as they are just opinions - so maybe do some research and think for yourself."
thank you for your insightfull addition to the debate.
with an intellect of such magnitude - have you thought of voting for nick clegg?
(funnily enough, whilst moving house this week, i dug up my copy of mojo magazine issue #3 with a photo article of blues musicians in it... wow - how a magazine can let it's presentation slide over the years...)
It's funny how
all those who have a slightly different opinion from your's have empty, bourjois lives while your's no doubt is full of challenge and complexity.
I quite liked, admired and respected VU - as you will see from my post further up - however, your somewhat hamfisted championing of them as some kind of one true faith deal - probably will persuade me to leaving them unplayed a little longer rather than casting aside anything not - god help us - dark and edgy and difficult and VU like.
I'm off to have a cup of tea and listen to the Dooobie Brothers.
After that, I've got net curtains to twitch and a sock drawer to tidy.
linger on...
i've been a VU fan since i was 18... and i've heard it all before, fashions come and go, and their legacy remains, through art+culture... hell, i even played in a VU tribute band at one point, for the opening of a pop-art exhibition!
so they are more to me than just a bunch of songs on a compilation cd, that i can dismiss as a way getting my own back on people who are smarter than me.
i guess you'll never understand, if you'd rather take the easy life and play the white-bread wonder option, with contrite nonsense like the doobie brothers, that says nothing to me about my life... enjoy listening to your disco album, while you do the housework, ethel.
this week i've been listening mainly to early psychedelic furs.
yours sincerely - the rock&roll animal
Well, looks like this blog has finally succumbed
to the sort of "The music I like is great, the music you like is crap" sort of sniping that I thought we were above here.
Sad.
I am severely humbled and chastened,
as I am sure we all are, by your obviously passionate understanding of life's musical journey and how to navigate it in response to one's personal and collective resonations and, indeed, revelations. Enlighten me further, please. I am obsessed with my underlay and an ongoing fungal dampness in the shed. Am I thus irrelevant ?
You are, after all, coming across a bit, shall we say, petty, rude, immature and a bit daft ? Love and Peace - Ringo Style.
;-).
Why are you so full of vitriol?
You seem to want to criticise those who don't care too much for the VU, as if that choice said something about them as people.
Non-fans are not smart:
"they are more to me than just a bunch of songs on a compilation cd, that i can dismiss as a way getting my own back on people who are smarter than me."
"thank you for your insightfull addition to the debate. with an intellect of such magnitude - have you thought of voting for nick clegg?"
Non-fans are mundane:
"if you'd rather take the easy life and play the white-bread wonder option, with contrite nonsense like the doobie brothers, that says nothing to me about my life... enjoy listening to your disco album, while you do the housework, ethel."
Non-fans live empty, gullible, conformist lives:
"maybe a little insight into reasons why you don't like something, other than "they challenged my perceptions and held a mirror to my empty life and just this once i found it wanting, and started to suspect that i had been hoodwinked into a life of bland conformity by my elders - so i put on "the joshua tree" and drank some cocoa..." neatly hidden between the lines of a non-opinion."
?
Does this mean that you believe being a VU fan makes you a smart, edgy, street-wise non-conformist who drinks something with more street cred than red wine?
I'm glad they mean a lot to you, other bands mean a lot to me. That's what bands are for. If someone ventures the opinion that, oh, lets say for example The Moody Blues, are a bunch of crap, I'll pitch in with an attempt to big up the band and give my reasons why they mean a lot to me. I'll try to avoid making a personal attack on the poster.
dear eightball
I'm amazed to find that you have already celebrated your 18th birthday.
Anyway, do try and find out what "contrite" means
Pointless
accusing someone of making childish posts then doing the same thing though. This thread was always going to be a love/hate .Perhaps The VU are the Marmite of music.
what
Black clad and Sticking With You??
coat firmly in residence, ready for departure
Sorry, Doug
but I completely disagree with you on this one. Responding to a level of arrogance in a post which gets personal and ridicules other contributors isn't ok . It should stay within accepted parameters of courtesy and general politeness. The relevant responses have. I've fecked up once or twice, but try to make an effort to consider others in our ongoing conversations.
Agreed
Coutesy is hopefully what seperates this blog from so many others but at the same time I can see some valid points being made.
I do think that there are certain posters on the Word blog who consider themselves self appointed arbiters of taste and any discussions of other music types will be greeted by snorts of derision and the usual "not proper music" putdowns.
I would hope that the Word is a broad church and all types of music can be tolerated and discussed. Musical snobbery can be fun but it can also lead to an unpleasant type of arrogance towards anything that doesn't "fit in".
Absolutely Doug.
I didn't really clarify myself properly. I was taking issue with Eightball's unnecessary jibes, and I thought that the retorts were completely justified and within the right bounds in view of the context of sniping that was coming from one directiion only.
Sarcasm eh?
Oh stop it. etc.
The Velvet Underground are boring
That's my opinion
Lou Reed can't sing
Don't care how "seminal" "important" they are, I, personally, dislike them.
The Kinks, however, not to mention the HJH, ELP, Little Feat, Randy Newman, Tom Waits, Thelonious Monk, Erik Satie, Joni Mitchell and others I won't list here are all rather wonderful.
Too hot in Aussie for a coat...
You are Danny Baker, and I claim my five pounds
On a related point, can I just say how on the button he was about the mid-70s music scene on the latest podcast. 73-76 was definitely one of the most exciting times to be 'on the scene'.
For the record I really like 'Sister Ray'
and 'I Heard Her Call My Name'. I love that discordant, howling, screeching, electronic feedback set against intense throbbing riffs. And 'Here She Comes Now' is a fine, melodic pop tune. 'WLWH' seems pretty great to me, and still out there even now. Nobody's done anything quite like it since. I might even be so bold as to say that it is THE VU album above all IMO, because it's not like other records. No bad album by them I say. And even the 'lost'album 'VU' is pretty special. Generally, Lou's urban realist, tell-it-how-it-is, non-judgemental, observation-of-a-certain-side-of-life lyrics seem like they were something new and influential to me, primarily on debut.
I'll get my shiny shiny coat of leather and I'll take my whiplash girl child in the dark with me while I'm at it.
VU Ambivalence
Some good stuff but an awful lot of average stuff. John Cale was the real genius in the band. I never got to see VU but have seen John Cale twice and Lou Reed once. I like both of them but Reeds loudest applause was when he played Velvets songs Venus in Furs and Waiting for the man. Cale didnt need to play Velvets material because he has his own superlative back catalogue. His albums for Island were excellent.
Right on cue
Uncut cover stars:
http://www.uncut.co.uk/
quietly
tip toes round Mikhail, affecting whistling noises and fumbling for spectacles, testacles, wallet and watch.
;-).