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U2 in tax avoidance shock horror

kinkywolfgang's picture

Seems that U2 have shifted some of their financial affairs to The Netherlands to reduce their tax burden. Is this type of fiscal chicanery altogether compatible with Bono's well-publicised anti-global poverty stance?

Read the article: - http://www.counterpunch.org/browne02272009.html



U2 Must Believe In Tax Justice: Dublin Feb 25 2009 from aaronrip on Vimeo.

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Make Bono Pay Tax

strong article on the same idea :

http://www.counterpunch.org/mccann02262009.html

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el hombre malo | 8 March 2009 - 2:29pm

Simon Mayo

asked him about this on 5 live the other week and he basically said that U2 were a corporation and that management had a duty to maximise its profits. Although he did imply he was not complicit in it by the way he said it.

Do you think he gives any of his 'profits' to the poor or do you think his messiah complex is enough?

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GunsOfBrixton | 8 March 2009 - 3:15pm

This is a load of codswallop

The Irish government for a long time gave a low rate of tax to creative acts of all sizes. No one saw fit to criticise U2 for benefiting from a low-tax regime in their country of birth; why should we be surprised that they move their tax base when their government changes the rules? And Bono is quite right about the corporation, whose Directors have a legal obligation to run the company in the interest of the shareholders and not according to the political prejudices of a bunch of onlookers.

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Mark JF | 8 March 2009 - 3:37pm

That'll be just like the Directors of

say, a privatised rail company, who have a 'legal obligation to run the company in the interest of the shareholders and not according to the political prejudices of a bunch of onlookers', like, for example, the travelling public, then.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 8 March 2009 - 6:38pm

Sorry, VV

but it's a bad analogy and you're conflating legal duties with sensible management practices like seeking customer feedback and providing a service people are prepared to pay for.

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Mark JF | 8 March 2009 - 6:55pm

It's not an analogy.

A Director's a Director, and has the same legal duties as any other Director.

With a captive market and an effective monopoly of supply, it takes customers of gargantuan bottle to produce any "feedback" that will actually be even noticed by the board room mandarins of the rail operating companies.

Their 'seeking' of customer feedback is an oft-practised ritual of patronising vacuity.

Sorry, but I found the statement 'Directors have a legal obligation to run the company in the interest of the shareholders and not according to the political prejudices of a bunch of onlookers.' rather glib in the context of a discussion about homilies regarding aid to the Third World being uttered by a millionaire; it hardly does the subject any justice.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 8 March 2009 - 7:12pm

Hear Hear Mr Fox

Good companies do not run themselves solely for the shareholders. Good companies remember the customers as well.

Quite apart from the hypocrisy of Bono as well. On thinking about it, I don't have any problems with the other members of U2 being tax efficient. Just the one who spends a lot of time telling Governments how to use the tax his company tries to pay as little of as possible.

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Leedsboy | 8 March 2009 - 7:19pm

My point (not well made) is

that comparing a company set up to channel the earnings of a rock band to a company that is running what used to be a public utility is not representative, albeit that the Board of Directors of each has the same legal duties.

However, my original statement isn't glib. Directors have a primary responsibility to their shareholders; there are rules and regulations about what they can and can't do with respect to political and charitable donations. What I find glib is that to say a group of Directors following their legal duties are indulging in "chicanery" (original post). The notion that all U2's earnings would be some kind of hypothecated tax payment that would go only to things they support and not to funding the army, purchasing arms, subsidising Aer Lingus etc is naive.

And as regards "homilies:" Bono is as entitled as anyone else to opine on how governments spend the money they've raised by taxing him. Why does being a millionaire exclude him from talking about poverty? Perhaps not being a millionaire should exclude us from talking about how millionaires should behave?!

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Mark JF | 8 March 2009 - 9:20pm

Peter Drucker

There's an interesting essay by Peter Drucker where he makes the point that this idea that companies only have a responsibility to their shareholders is wrong, and in fact they also have a responsibility to the society within which they operate, the people who work for them and the people they serve.

In reality in real public companies (rather than tax dodging vehicles like U2 Inc) the shareholders take very little interest in the operations of the company, and/or have little influence. Most of them are large pension funds anyway and the people involved are managers of the pension funds not the people who genuinely put up their hard earned. They tend to suffocate the interests of the smaller shareholders - see the recent débacle at Cable and Wireless for example where the grasping distinctly average management team gave themselves a vast bonus pot, the minor shareholders went spare but this made no difference as the pension fund and other asset managers couldn't have cared less. Have a read of Polly Toynbee's "Unjust desserts".

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Twangothan | 8 March 2009 - 10:15pm

Whilst it is true...

...that the directors are obliged to increase shareholder value, if the shareholders voted to (say) locate the company in a high-tax country, the Directors would be likely to comply.

This isn't a PLC we're talking about here, it's a private company set up to maximise the income to the 4 members of U2 (and possibly Paul McGuinness)

I'd be VERY surprised if there were any voting shareholders and directors other than those 5 individuals. They can make the company do what they want it to do - they chose to move the affairs to he Netherlands.

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stimpy | 8 March 2009 - 7:34pm

Mark JF - I think this

Mark JF - I think this misses the point. It's the hypocrisy of the moralising little toerag that sticks in the craw. The sanctimonious git expounds on how we should do our bit to eradicate world poverty, whilst looking for any legal means to avoid paying tax. And using the corporation/Directors excuse just doesn't cut it for many people.

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markunderwood | 8 March 2009 - 3:46pm

Bongo

What a strange world we live in, when someone should attempt to reduce their tax bill by "legal means" and run their business like a business, and get criticised for it. Bono may be be "moralising toerag", but why is he hypocritical? As far as I know he donates very large sums of money to the causes he supports - so it's not as if he doesn't put his money where his mouth is.

I get the feeling with Bono that people are shooting down the message because they don't like the messenger. I happen to think he's a pretentious little prick, but it doesn't necessarily follow that his views on debt or the way he runs his business are hopelessly flawed.

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Barry Womm | 8 March 2009 - 4:16pm

You're being naive

to think that anyone would love to pay lots and lots of tax. Would you? The Directors of U2's company have an obligation to run the business for the benefit of the shareholders and legally domiciling themselves in a tax-efficient country is plain sensible. If you want Bono to pay more tax, you should look at a) harmonised European (possibly global) tax regimes so companies can't do this (but bear in mind they'll decamp to Delaware or the Cayman Islands); or b) higher personal taxation for the money he takes as a shareholder.

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Mark JF | 8 March 2009 - 6:46pm

no mark - i think it's you're who's being naive

I don't, per se, have a problem with Rock stars avoiding tax. I think it's what they do. It's gone on for donkeys years, ever since the stones debunked to the South of France to do Exile on Main St.

Thing is, they were unapologetic about it, and you didn't have Jagger mouthing off about what the UK government should be doing with taxpayers money.

With Bongo, the problem is that he's constantly lobbying governments all over the globe, including the Irish one, about foreign aid. Does he think it comes down the fucking chimney at Christmas?

No, it comes from tax revenue. And the point is that if Bono isn't going to put in the pot, then he can piss off with his preaching. I don't doubt for a second that Bongo gives huge sums of money to charity separately; you could say that this is made possible all the more by the fact that he's more, um, tax efficient. He's still a hypocrite. He's the 1/4 or 1/5 shareholder in the holding companies, and the Directors who are doing their best duty to the shareholders, are doing it to benefit him. End of.

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ivan | 8 March 2009 - 7:06pm

Tax dodging

He is tax dodging and transferring his tax responsibilities to the rest of his considerably less wealthy countrymen. Saying it is the responsibility of the company to the shareholders etc is weasel word play. Who are the shareholders, may we ask? The members of U2 maybe? This is an old story anyway, and I remember a comment from the Irish PM at the time to the effect that he looks forward to the next time Bono beards him about the government not contributing enough to overseas aid. It may be legal but it stinks and he should be ashamed of himself. Mind you all his good works are just ego inflation anyway.

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Twangothan | 8 March 2009 - 4:59pm

Instead of bellyaching about

a subject we are not privy to the exact details of, could all the naysayers come up with some substantive figures on just how much tax the U2 corporation and Bono individually should pay? And how much of his after tax income should be give to charity? It seems there's a lot of very naive politicking going on from both camps and very little constructive suggestion.

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Mark JF | 8 March 2009 - 7:00pm

Not to defend the annoying twerp...

... but Private Eye is full of stories of corporations and their convoluted tax avoidance schemes.

Is Bongo any more hypocritical than, for example, a newspaper which talks about wasted taxpayers money on a regular basis whilst being simultaneously owned by a large international corporation which uses a complex system of international interests to avoid paying tax?

Rich people are basically hypocrits. They all seem to claim that not paying tax is for the greater good. Boner is no worse than any of the rest of them. We're the true fools for continuing to buy their damn products.

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ganglesprocket | 8 March 2009 - 7:22pm

Sure but....

Most of them are perfectly happy and open about being greedy grasping bastards (see "Fred the Shred"), it is the pious bit that annoys me.

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Twangothan | 8 March 2009 - 7:43pm

I think that Marina Hyde summed it up pretty well

in her fake diary of Bono in yesterday's Grauniad

- I can't walk down a street in Dublin without a nurse or teacher stopping me and saying, "It's an honour to pay for the roads you use."

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Pete Kavanagh | 8 March 2009 - 8:16pm

Politics and finance

They ain`t my strengths thats for sure. I like U2 and their music but, when their leader begs us to make poverty history and then later, decides to decamp some of his financial affairs to another country to avoid tax in some form is just wrong. Its wrong. Did you get that Bono. I would point the massive in the direction of the current output of Mark Thomas on podcast. Very revealing. Shame on you Bob Geldof.

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gerry d | 8 March 2009 - 8:21pm

Mark Thomas

Had a quick search but can't easily track which Podcast I need, please could you point me in the right direction? Cheers.

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kidpresentable | 8 March 2009 - 11:55pm

Sure

Go to itunes > podcasts > mark thomas > subscribe. Sorry for stating the bleedin obvious. I have listened to mine and deleted them but I`m sure the one(s) you want were all issued in February. I think the ones with John Christensen and PremSikka interviews are what you need. Vince Cable is good as well.

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gerry d | 9 March 2009 - 8:06pm

Begrudgery

As someone whose employment status has changed in the last month, to the point where for the first time in my life I'm probably going to need an accountant. Does this make me a bad person if I start writing things off and take advice to lower my tax burden? I'm pretty sure every rocker who wants to make poverty history has a flank of accountants and business advisors in the wings managing the wealth.

If you hate Bono, you hate Bono - this is just more fuel for the fire. However I'm Irish, and I know U2 begrudgery when I see it. Over the past 25 years, the strength of Irish U2 begrudgery is inversely related to the strength of the Irish economy. He might be seen as preachy but I'm pretty sure Bono contibutes more than his tithe to global causes. He certainly does more than me.

I've a feeling I'll be shot down for saying this but U2 have done so much for Ireland over the last 30 years. I was born in 1974 and was acutely aware as a kid of the Paddy being the butt of the joke on British tv in the years before political correctness. Coupled with "The Troubles", it led to a poor world view of what Ireland was really like. [Which still exists: Since I've moved to London in 2004 you still occasionally get comments to remind you you're an immigrant, and people have already decided things about you based on that.]

U2 have always kept their base of operations in Ireland, employing what I believe is about 70 or so people. U2 have aided tourism to the country - next time you see a South American under 25 in Dublin, ask them why they came to town. They have fought a global stereotype and have done for Ireland what the Beatles did for Liverpool - except the Beatles got out of the North West as soon as they had the first hit, and they never went back.

U2 are a global brand/product who generate most of their cash outside of Ireland. If they're doing anything illegal, well I hope they get caught. Treating them like the Bernie Madoffs of rock is a bit much, there are other things to get angry about. Like the financial management of the country by Irish government for the last few years - shouldn't you fix the roof when the sun is shining?

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DrJ | 8 March 2009 - 8:54pm

You make some valid points...

about the perception of Ireland and the state of the Irish economy; all of which are, I'm sure, true.

But, you miss the key point which is that Bonio still wants to tell governments - both his own and foreign - on what to spend their citizen's money, whilst trying to avoid paying into the coffers of his government.

Honest tax avoidance is fine - god knows I expend considerable efforts on minimising my tax each year - but *I* don't try and tell anyone else what to do with their money.

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stimpy | 8 March 2009 - 9:03pm

Aren't you trying

to tell Bono what to do with his money?

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ChaosandMorphine | 9 March 2009 - 7:00am

Not at all...

I have no interest in what Bono does with his money - as long as he doesn't try and influence what his government does with taxpayers money

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stimpy | 9 March 2009 - 8:24am

How

can you start a statement with "I have no interest in..." followed by "as long as..."
You either have or you haven't, it can't be both.

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ChaosandMorphine | 9 March 2009 - 2:33pm

Makes perfect sense.

The only interest I have in him is that he either pays tax or shuts up.

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stimpy | 9 March 2009 - 2:46pm

No it doesn't make you a bad person

and Bono isn't a 'bad' person. I just think he's a hypocrite. And a shameless self promoter. Which is pretty par for the course with global rock stars.

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Leedsboy | 8 March 2009 - 10:15pm

No one

writing on this thread knows any of the details of U2's financial affairs.
No one knows what Bono thinks about the U2 tax arrangements.
No one knows exactly what U2 contribute to the Irish economy.
But what we do know is that he is trying to make life better for millions of people around the world. Whether you think he is sincere or not, I would guess it's a safe bet to say that he has done more good than any of us.

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ChaosandMorphine | 9 March 2009 - 7:09am

But

we do know that they don't contibute what they should. And what he is doing is preening and inflating his own ego.

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Twangothan | 9 March 2009 - 12:18pm

We know SOME of the details

of U2's financial affairs.

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stimpy | 9 March 2009 - 1:33pm

I know

SOME of the details of YOUR financial affairs. Does that mean I'm now in a position to comment on how you live your life? Or would it be better for me to get ALL of the information before I did that?

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ChaosandMorphine | 9 March 2009 - 2:57pm

Don't know enough about Bono's finances

to say too much, but am against tax avoidance/evasion in general, as one who has a partner working in an understaffed and underfunded NHS, fully aware that there are a lot of very wealthy people out there who could contribute a lot more than they do, and I believe something should be done, agreed upon, among countries to prevent this kind of carry on. I'm with Twango on the need for social responsibility. This idea of the unfettered, pure pursuit of maximum income as a good thing, regardless, should be a discredited Thatcherite philosophy by now. Sorry, I came over all political there. Not the done thing. And someone who does knowingly avoid tax and also preaches about what public funds should be spent on is doubly wrong, if that is what he is doing.

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Sven Garlic | 9 March 2009 - 7:34am

There are many good points

being made here, along with a lot of conjecture and a conflation of personal and public interests. If you or I decide to minimise our tax burden, then that is a personal matter. What a government does with it's citizens money is a public matter. If someone tries to influence that government to do some good for the poorest people on Earth, I believe that person should be applauded, even if they do it solely to boost their own ego.

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ChaosandMorphine | 9 March 2009 - 2:52pm
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