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"Tory" government, student riots - the 1980s revival starts here
Posted by BigJimBob on 10 November 2010 - 4:38pm.
Where's Julian Cope when you need him?
Seriously, I will put £10 down that SWSS/SWP are involved somehow. Do they really think this is the Vanguard Action that will start the revolution? My gut feeling is that any sympathy from the Person on Clapham Ominbus is rapidly evaporating.
In my student days I always thought that SWSS were a bunch of public Schoolboys playing Lenin. Was I wrong? Anyone have any insider experience and want to convince me otherwise.
PS yes I do know it is a coalition government really
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It might just be that
a bunch of young people, whose votes were assiduously courted by Nick "no tuition fees, honest" Clegg, are a bit pissed off that when he was given the chance of a bit of power, he turned his back on what he'd promised them and have actually got the energy to complain about it.
Still, given time, they'll just become jaded, cynical and realise there's no point protesting and become apathetic just like the rest of us.
Nail. Head.
I'm no longer a student but the primary reason I voted Lib Dem in 2005 was their stance on tuition fees. Despite having gone to university before top-up fees came in (last time), it cost me £1200 a year for a degree at a well-regarded university where the lecturers couldn't be bothered to give additional assistance half the time. Now, I'm 24 with a good job, but have no prospect of getting on the property ladder any time soon (I'd be surprised if I owned a house before I was 30) and I owe the government £10k.
Happy days.
And I'm one of the ones who did well out of university. I'm VERY angry about this and very glad these protests are taking place. However, I do wish that people could be a bit more sensible about it. Though it may be cathartic, attempting to burn down Tory HQ is hardly going to make anyone listen to you more.
Speaking on behalf of the baby boomers....
...who I'm always hearing had it easy, I didn't own a house until I was 30. And that was in the Jurassic era.
I'm not saying that at all
I don't think the baby boomers did have it easy. However, I would imagine that the amount a house costs in relation to the average salary is far greater now than it was in, say, 1980.
Let's see.
It's 1983, I'm 28 years old and we're buying our first house. I'm a secondary school teacher in Bristol and I'm getting paid about £6500 pa. Our 2 up 2 down in Totterdown costs us £16,500, so it's 2.5 times my salary.
The average wage for a similar teacher these days (postgrad qualified, two year's experience) I'd guess at around £30,000 (can anyone verify this for us?), which means a small house should be gettable for around £75,000, which it isn't. Double that, and you might be lucky.
Looks like my back-of-a-fag-packet arithmetic hints that the ratio might have doubled since 1980.
You haven't factored in the interest rates though
When I bought my first house my mortgage repayments were 1/4 of my gross income because interest rates were 8%. I couldn't have bought it if I were not in a relationship and we were buying together. Rough fag packet of what I would earn now (I'm still in the same profession so I know what a less experienced but more energetic me would earn) would allow a mortgage repayment of around £900 per month.
I really don't see that much has changed - houses are more expensive, mortgages are cheaper and it's just as bloody hard getting your first house (and near impossible if you want to buy on your own).
Strewth, I think you're right.
I forgot all those letters I got from the Building Society over the last two years telling me my payments had gone down... back in the day they only went northwards, sometimes frighteningly so.
My brothers
doubled in the space of a year in the nineties. It disposed of his disposable income. They lived in a flat for a bout 3 years longer than they planned to.
Disagree
fifteen years ago, you didn't have to earn that much to buy a small, one-bed flat in Edinburgh on a 95% mortgage (presupposing a deposit of £1500-£2000 approx)
now that prices have gone up (by a factor of three or four), you need to be earning around £25k or more AND post credit crunch you need a 25% deposit which translates into a sum of £30k or more ...
i'd say the comparison between now and then is that you need to be earning more by a factor of 2 or 3, and you need ten to fifteen times as much money in savings ... which is why the market for first time buyer flats in the city is, er, flat ... with a consequent knock-on in the rest of the market
Point taken
But I don't live in a city - could never afford to. I live in the sticks where the houses are cheaper - always have (although it is the sticks in the south so its still expensive).
I also started buying a house in the early 90's and deposits were a resolute 10% minimum. More was deemed good. And we had to save whilst we lived with our parents.
A bunch of young people work for me and they are buying houses. We pay them well enough but not stupidly and they work hard to earn what the do. It just seems to be as difficult now as it was when I first bought, but for slightly different reasons. Not easier but not harder either.
Baby boomers did have it easy
compared to the generation before us or compared to today we had everything on a plate to be honest.
Yup.
I'd agree with that. We were born when the NHS was at it's peak, we had free school milk, proper school education, free university education, cheap mortgages AND we had the best music.
EDIT: We also invented sex, drugs, colour television, the internet, and flew to the moon :-)
I remember the
cave shortage as well...
30?
Pah! I didn't get a flat until I was 40! And I still don't have a house!
There were 27 of us
huddled together in a septic tank
//shocked smiley//
Fraser, I always thought you were 22
Let's be fair Mr H
You're from Yorkshire, therefore were saving coppers in a jar to pay the conveyancing fees ... which took some time ...
I should add to my own reply
that I'm not in favour of the violence that it's degenerated into, and the OP is probably right about the rent-a-mob faction's involvement.
But as I've rattled on about before here, just as when Labour talked about "ethical foreign policy", Clegg's holier than thou "new politics" means he'll get judged to a higher standard of his own choosing.
For a lot of young people who voted for the first time in May, their first experience of politics was voting for a man who lied to them and looked them in the face and used them for a photo opportunity while doing it. That can't do a lot for their view of politics per se, never mind their view of Clegg.
Oh don't get me wrong
I work in academia, I have and do participate in demos. I have the utmost sympathy with the students, I do believe they have been unfairly treated and lied to. My problem is that the participants of quite a large march will now be condemned by what the Germans call The Yellow Press as a bunch of unruly anarchistic youths who Don't Deserve To BE Educated. Thanks to a few individuals the legitimate point of the demo will be lost.
Honestly, I still don't see what the people storming the gates of Millbank think they will accomplish.
Those of us who went on the Poll Tax march
are similarly condemned to be remembered for being there when there were police cavalry charges in Trafalgar Square, smashed shop windows and smoke palls from burning building sites hanging over the city, whereas from our own memories the whole day was a peaceful and uplifting experience. The bulk of the marchers were already a mile or two away on Victoria Embankment, boarding our buses to go home when we heard about the violence.
Serious question:
Didn't the violence help bring about the end of the hated PT? From memory I think it did (which opens up a whole philosophical debate) but maybe I'm wrong?
well...
... mass non payment with consequent effects on local authority budgets played its part
I think
that's more like it; much as I'd like to fantasise that the Spirit of '68 had carried the day, I think it's more likely it was just some accountant's sums wot dun it.
I think it was a dead duck well before the riot
I would like to think that the masses rose up, seized the day, made the change etc but I think the Poll Tax was already on the chopping block.
I'm scared
I finally managed to buy my own home last November, aged 29. It'd be just my luck for capitalism to collapse now.
you could see how worked up they were,
a lot of them missed Countdown to carry on the protest.
The police got it totally wrong as usual
If they had gone in brandishing bars of soap and job offers, the student protesters would have parted like the Red Sea.
Or am I channelling my dad?
or maybe
that got ir right.
A lot of 6 o'clock knocks in 3 months time.
Visual evidence is a lot more damning than saying 'oik a' smashed that glass.
The Clapham Omnibus to Westminster..
..goes right by Millbank Tower.
I'll take your tenner. There's no way that the SWP/SWSS could organise 50,000 students, 500 maybe.
The Tories
must be feeling a bit pissed off, the Lib Dems enrage students by abandoning their opposition to tuition fees and the students attack Tory HQ. Truly. we are all in this together!
Blimey!
Student uprising?
When did this last happen in the UK
Nice to see Badly Drawn Boy getting involved as well
I'm Saying Nothing.
But as John Lydon once remarked of the Sex Pistols, some things happen simply because they should.
There always those few
who ruin it for everyone else.
650 of 'em
to be precise.
.......
..... yeahhh, bloody Old Etonians!
BR
FT
Dumbing down!
These dim students have only gone and attacked the wrong building! The Conservative Party's campaign HQ is next door!
Sorry
Sorry if this all sounds a bit simplistic but I sat in my car this morning on the Strand while thousands of students passed by on their way to the demo. I have to admit that I was genuinely excited by it and even more thrilled when I heard that that they had broken into Tory HQ. For the last few years the vast majority of the people (not just students) have been shat upon by the government in this country particularly during and after the banking crisis. The lower and middle classes are paying for the greed of The City whilst the top earners avoid paying their dues and this country is fast becoming a 'have and have not' society.
Its about bloody time there was some civil unrest. Bring it on! Let's hope it escalates..
I'll be a stoodant in 2 months time
And I'm excited too.
I was last one in the 80s. I'll have to re-grow my mullet and start listening to Marillion again.
I'll tell you what
The Levellers have timed their comeback well haven't they?
You are no doubt correct
as to the perpetrators.
And it is indeed both wrong in principle and counter-productive in practice to smash up private property.
However I hope I can be forgiven for finding a crowd of students trashing Tory HQ to be hugely amusing.
I believe
you have struck the perfectly balanced perspective on this one.
Actually, No
Why is it wrong in principle to smash up private property? In certain circumstances, it might be quite justifiable.
Go on then
I can think of property that is illegal (guns, dodgy photos etc.) but I sense you mean more than that. Can you give some examples?
Everybody's smashing things up...
Who determines what those
Who determines what those circumstances are?
It's private property, not public. If I say something offensive, does that give you the right to destroy or damage my property?
Or is it property owned not by individuals but by corporate entities? I need to know the guidelines so that the next time I get pissed off at someone or something I can extract what I consider my due from them by way of breaking something.
On reflection
... one curry and good-night's-sleep later, I have to concede that I was talking what we social care professionals like to call "bollocks"...
Apologies - thinking with angry heart and not sober head.
Do you know what?
I bloody love this blog. Where else do you get gracious rowings-back like that?
Have an up, my stock-based friend.
Agreed here as well
man.of.soup you are a man.of.substance.
Ditto
Well, my reaction was snarkier than it needed to be.
Cheers.
But..
Would it have been the top item on the news had it not 'degenerated' into violence?
I think not, myself.
The anti-war demo was peaceful and look how effective that was. Perhaps it's the natural progression for people who are dictated to by, basically, a section of the upper classes. In 2010.
I think some people have noticed the French response to being dictated to, at least at certain points in time, and reached the conclusion that the (piss) artists formerly known as 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' are currently nothing of the sort. It's us that are laying down and taking it.
I'm with them. It's hard going being a student now. Unless you've got a 7 million pound trust fund that you don't pay tax on. Eh, George?
George?
I assume you refer to George Osborne, who was against Gordon Brown's bail out of the banks in this country and said the market should simply let them fail, who insists that the deficit in this country is purely and simply Gordon Brown's deficit and nothing to do with the banking crisis? Who says we are so strapped for cash in this country that we have to decimate the public services, increase tuition fees, cut benefits etc because only austerity can save us?
Or do you mean the George Osborne who has found £7billion from our empty coffers to loan Ireland because of the crisis caused by the banks there? The George Osborne who is heir to the Osborne baronetcy in County Tipperary and County Waterford?
Just checking.
On the other hand
We have some traction here. I fancy we could bypass the whole 'loan' bullshit and just give the Irish the feckin' money, but with some strings:
The following to be clubbed about the head, then sealed in concrete and used for bridge supports:
==========================
Louis Walsh
Boyzone
Westlife
Johnny Logan
Dana
The members of U2
Daniel O'Donnell
Chris de Burgh
Jedward
The following, and any others as we deem fit, to be claimed for Britain in perpetuity:
========================================
Ardal O'Hanlon
Peter O'Toole
Dara O'Briain
Wogan
Dylan Moran
The Dubliners
Do we have a deal?
Swap Dana and Ardal
and you've got a deal!
I chuckled
When they had a photograph of the peaceful march on the BBC News. Lots of identical placards, obviously handed out by the NUS, plus a large homemade sign that read, "I ONLY POPPED OUT FOR A BOTTLE OF MILK".
The film of the bunch of protestors kicking in the window seemed to show they were outnumbered by the police standing around watching them. Were they waiting for a risk assessment to be carried or was it break time? In the 1980's the truncheons would have been out.
Oh yes
Still have lumps from a couple of days like that
Mind you even the polis are getting cut back this time
oh dear
Yes, let's hear it for mob rule.
Two hours
it took me to get home last night, living in the vicinity of Millbank. Bloody students. I drove by it this morning and it's a mess - and the grafitti! Surely it's agitators rather than students, though. I agree with them, but I wrecking property while getting them noticed will not help their cause. The ones interviewed on the news - all called Charlie, Nell and Jack, etc., just sounded priviliged and dumb. It won't play well.
The millions of coaches going the other way last night seemed to have a lot of very fed up looking students in them, perhaps ashamed and embarrassed that their peaceful protest had been hijacked by the usual suspects.
Charlie, Nell and Jack
are all mates of the researcher who went to the OB with the film crew. They did coffee in Costa five minutes before the interview, and like, fluffed their stories for the PTC.
Yah
Absolutely. Best pop off to Newquay till the heat dies down
Riots seem to be the.....
only option left to us here in Ireland if we have any hope of getting our Government out. They seem to think that constantly telling us that 'we're turning the corner' is proof that we're in capable hands! As for buying a house, I'm 41 and still haven't bought and now that the banks have stopped lending I'll probably never get one.
My Old Mum
who's hardly an examplar of the hard left (she's 65 and my dad's pushing 70, both usually fairly middle of road politically) told me what her reaction to it all was when she saw it on the news last night:
"I cheered, and was glad someone's had the balls to open their mouth to this bunch of idiots and DO something"
White Riot
Hey, how did this so quickly turn into a mortgage discussion? It's true what they say.
Hooray for the kids. Sometimes it takes a riot. This is great.
We've gone through a 20 year decline in youth political engagement. people have been complaining about this sorry state of affairs for years. And now it looks like the kids might be waking up from their oversaturated culture, and looking around themselves instead. Sure its motivated by self-interest, but thats where all injustices are fought from. A healthy society needs regular checks and balances, and rioting - popular rioting - can be as important an ingredient to a healthy society as can an effective broadband network or exchange rate mechanism.
BigE
... what he said.
When
I was in SWSS, I was a former comp schoolboy and an ex-plasterer's apprentice to boot. Thus the public schoolie thang is a bit of a canard. Damn right on Lenin tho....
The middle classes..
.. among whom I suppose I now have to number myself - are a bit terrified of civic uproar. They/we find it reassuring to think its a load of well brought up kids having a momentary aberration. But it IS reasonable to assume that it will be posher kids involved if its a university students demo. Fair play to them I think, what's going on is absolute daylight robbery and our politicians are just acting as the tipstaffs to the banks
More 1980s rehash.
Oh my god, it is the 1980's, now weve even got a bloody royal wedding on the way!
Young people? Smashing things up?
Bloody disgrace. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. Bring back national service.
Oh,they're in the Bullingdon Club you say. Oh well, boys will be boys.
When the council estate
chavs smash up a bus shelter, it's a disgrace, lock 'em up etc.
When the rugby club wallahs smash up a pub, it's youthful high spirits, a rite of passage between the private school and a job in the city etc
Really, though? REALLY?
A couple of times when I was at university, the rahs got violently exuberant in curry houses and pubs, at which point they were promptly arrested and charged. I don't think anyone in the criminal justice system is inclined to let people off because they're posh. I know a good few policemen and a couple of criminal barristers who would tell you that they just don't have that kind of latitude. If the victims/plaintiffs want to press charges, charges are pressed.
No one's saying
they are let off. But our perception of the perpetrators is very different, I feel.
Not sure about that.
My perceptions certainly aren't: as far as I'm concerned, a crime's a crime.
That said, I wonder if recidivism is an issue here. Habitual crime *is* strongly correlated with poverty, so it may be that some people (again, not me) see the Bullingdon stuff as a forgivable one-off that almost certainly won't happen again (at least, not done by the same people), while it's felt that yer trasher of a bus shelter is likely to have done it before and might well do it again? That might well be the sort of view a newspaper might take, but I'm not sure Joe Public would see it the same way.
I dunno. Like I say, apart from the whole issue of repeat offending, a crime's a crime. If you've got two people from different social spheres, the same form and similar crimes, they should be treated the same and perceived the same.
My friend works in Millbank
...as do lots of people who don't work for the Tories. It's a big place. Her office was smashed to pieces. It's a bit like smashing up 1 Canada Square (Canary Wharf tower) because you don't like the Daily Mirror.
Exactly
I'm sure all the armchair anarchists on here would be delighted if a bunch of middle-class Chumbawamba fans turned up and smashed their iMacs to smithereens.
oh yes
It would be a honour. As long as they signed my copy of English Rebel Songs 1381–1984 first.
It would be bad
However, if I got knocked down, I'd get up again.