Entertainment For Lively Minds
Throwing the S away. Or not.
Posted by Austin on 18 December 2010 - 8:47pm.
In the space of a couple of days, I have heard a DJ introduce a Cliff Richards record, had a conversation where ex-PM John Majors was mentioned and heard a political commentator (whose job it is to know these things) call the NZ PM John Keys.
Where do all these superfluous esses comes froms?
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Trivial Pursuits
That's annoying too
Extraneous letters in general get on my (rhymes with 'bits' and starts with 't'). Prime example being "please enter you PIN Number"
"What? My Personal Identification Number Number"
Mrs D trying to explain to a little Digit: "Nick Griffin - he's the leader of the BNP Party"
(That'll be the 'British National Party Party' then?)
not to forget
the Plymouth Argyle "hooligan" "firm", the TCE. That'll be The The Central Element then. Nowt to do with Matt Johnson either.
would they sing
a uncertain Argyle ?
Unnecessary repetition
Used to irk me to no end that the TSB's signage read 'TSB Bank'. That'd be Trustee Savings Bank Bank, then?
Rather reminds me of that track by the Fall:
"The Birmingham School of Business School".
A good one to shout when at a bus station.
I share your pain...
Every time I hear the non-word "paninis" uttered I die a little inside.
Yeah
We want "toasties"!
Can I get an eXpresso with that
?
Or how about
a cappuccino with milk?
and
an toasties, pls
"Can I get..."!!!
Call me a moaning old git (because I AM one, so fill your boots), but this phrase brings on the red mists like no other.
"Can I get a large coffee?"
"No. But as there's no unauthorised persons allowed behind the counter, I work here and I know where everything is, why don't I get one for you?"
Thanks - feel better for that.
Likewise "Give it up..."
I could list a hundred reasons why I'm glad the X Factor is finally off the family viewing schedule, but top would be not having to hear Dermot bloody O'Leary exhorting the audience to "Give it up for....(insert name of talentless nurk here) " .
...waving his hand in a condescending manner while
walking backwards off the stage, like he's giving the public permission to go wild. Also have you noticed how he carefully keeps the contestants in their place while sycophantically interviewing the guest star - maintaining the divide between celebs and civilians.
That's better.
Don't forget, brothers...
To convene at the annual TUC Congress.
Oh, and Hartlepools for Hartlepool United, although there may be historic reasons for that given the old towns of Hartlepool and West Hartlepool are represented.
And Tottenham Hotspurs. Don't hear it much these days, but there was no reason for it. Although I might start using it now just to see if people notice.
Up here
Hartlepool are even referred to on the BBC local radio (Tees) as 'Pools.
Keith Richards sufferered from the same problem
between 1964 and 1970 (-ish)
And again between
1970 and 2010.
Did Keith Richard(s)
cause some of the confusion over Cliff's surname by dropping the "s" from his own surname at one point? For a time they had the same name and then they didn't. When the BBC started referring to Keith as Richards, did the idea grow up that they were rectifying some confusion about his name which also referred to Cliff?
I thought it was his own idea?
(or at least the record company or Andrew Loog Oldham). I thought he deliberately called himself Richard (eg on the songwriting credits on vinyl labels) for some attempt to appear cooler, then gave up around 1970?
Doesn't Mount Fujiyama
mean 'mountain mountain mountain'?
I actually love the idea of that, though.
And...
Torpenhow = Hill Hill Hill
River Tyne = River River
Paraguay River = River River River
Sahara Desert = Desert Desert
[Nicked off "QI"]
Paddy Fields
= Field Fields
He's a nice bloke though
that Paddy Fields
Paddy Fields
Three more from him later...
Of replacing Have
Shouldn't of let it bither me on Facebook.
Are / Our
"Round Are Way."
I beg your pardon?
My mum's maiden name is Richards...
when I was 12 or so I used to have a fantasy that Keef was her long-lost brother. Uncle Human Riff...
In my dull day job
I get asked to arrange 'PAT testing' and aside from the Frank Butcher jokes they don't realise they are saying portable appliance testing testing.
The dolts.
One Two
One Two?
I beg to differ..
I bet fine coin not one of them pronunces the 'T'. So they're asking for PA Testing. Which means that they are correct.
Perhaps you should ask whether they are using clumsy pronunciation. And then point out the errors inherrent therein.
And then ask for help in picking up your teeth.
Ah
the last line reveals all - you're just looking for new business in the new era of austerity, aren't you?
Curses!
Foiled again.
I blame
George Michaels
I likes it...
...when people add an s to a word. Reminds me of when I lived in Bristol.
So is...
..."I likes Bristols" the correct way of expressing appreciation for that fine city?
ooh yeah
although localz do be prenarnsin it Brizzle i does believes
Ship Shape
That's it moi lovley; you've got the roight ideal.
As always...
Half Man Half Biscuit have this one covered:
If your going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't go calling it the Book of Revelations,
Theres no 'S'
Its the Book of Revelation
As revealed to St John the Divine.
See also Mary Hopkin,
She must despair
Pete Docherty may also despair.
Oddly enough
when they played Durham last month, Nigel too was bemoaning the creeping use of "can I get a beer?" to much the same effect as the earlier post
As for s's, Professor Stephen Hawkings must must a bit bloody sick by now...
Same with supermarkets
There's no such stores as Marks and Spencer's, Tesco's, Asda's, etc. (though Morrisons and Sainsbury's are fine).
Also dropping the S for a plural of pounds really annoys me, e.g. "This CD player cost a hundred pound."
Could add this to the coincidence thread...
Being extremely bored on the bus yesterday, I was thinking about this just yesterday after the guy in front of me mentioned "Marks and Spencer's." I need to remember to bring my headphones when I'm on public transport...
the Marks'n'Sparks one is interesting though...
I'm not as genned up on the history of the business as I should be, but if it was founded by a Mr Marks and a Mr Spencer, and somebody is adding an 's' to indicate possession - "I am going to the shop owned by Marks and Spender", it's not quite *that* heinous a crime, is it?
I mean, if I had the surname 'Smith' and I choose to just put the name 'Smith' over the door of my emporium, then there's nothing really wrong with somebody saying that they're going to 'Smiths', is there?
Can, therefore, the same rule apply to M&S?
Agreed
I say "Marks and Spencer's" myself, and I don't think anyone says they're going to "Marks and Spencer." My first job as a teenager in America was at an ice cream parlor/restaurant called "Friendly" which was founded in the 30's. The signs, the menus, everything said "Friendly". Naturally everyone called it "Friendly's". A few years after I worked there, they finally gave in and officially changed the name to "Friendly's", which meant new signs, new menus,etc.etc....
Interesting
Almost sounds like Word Magazine/ The Word Magazine.
Hey! I said
Don't get me started on that!
.............................(below)
But Sainsburys was, until recently, called J Sainsbury
I believe they changed the brand name to fit in with the common (but technically incorrect) use by their customers.
c.f. Appletise becoming Appletiser.
On the renaming by public opinion front
the one that annoyed me was Smashing Pumpkins. Their name was obviously an act, structured like Counting Crows or Throwing Muses. And the act of smashing pumpkins is a strong image with a meaning.
Then they became The Smashing Pumpkins (even on their own record covers) which, as a band name, is about one tenth as good.
(Don't start me on "Word" vs "The Word".)
If I go to visit a friend, I
If I go to visit a friend, I say "I'm going to Beth's"
As in Beth's house.
This is the same thing.
zackly
Ellipsis ain't it?
You can find it all over the place (if you know to look where there is nothing... iyswim)
Surely
the answer to the superfluous s problem is simples.
Apparently
6am is in the morning. I wish it was in the afternoon though.
and there's no F***ing 'aitch
in 'aitch either!!
Except the one
at the end.
ARGH.
I grind my teeth when people say "haitch". Unfortunately, my daughter's Reception teacher says it, and now my daughter has started to. She gets corrected. Every time.
Haitch
Oh yes there is.
There is no way I'm going to change from the way I was taught after some 50 years of usage.
Does anyone have a copy of Fowler to get an official view on this? Not that I'm going to change even if I'm wrong.
Also I always say Hotel and never 'otel.
aitch or haitch - the classic shibboleth in N.I.
If I remember my sociolinguistics correctly, the pronunication of the letter H is the classic shibboleth in Northern Ireland.
Catholic schools teach 'haitch' and Protestant schools teach 'aitch', and so a person only has to utter that particular word for their religion to be apparent.
I find that most native English speakers that I meet who say 'haitch' are either Roman Catholics or have been educated at a Roman Catholic school at some point in their lives [cue a storm of Word readers writing in saying that they use the 'haitch' pronunciation but are not Catholic].
The Wonderful World of the Word Blog
I've learned something new today.
I went to Catholic school. I wish I could remember whether friends who went to non-Catholic schools pronounced it as aitch.
I'm an aitch and a Catholic
However, I do like it when an aitch is h-added h-unnecessarily. I think it's a music hall comedy thing used by people pretending to be posh (e.g. Waynetta Slob when she became rich).
I have noticed that Australians say haitch, though. A good way to tell them apart from Kiwis, if you're not sure.
"Quite right, mi-lady"
Don't forget before the days hof St. Stephen hof Fry we were hall trained in hour helocution by Parker from Thunderbirds
Eddie Izzard to Americans...
on language differences.
"You say 'aluminum'. We say 'aluminium'. You say 'Erb'. We say 'herb'. Because it's got a fucking aitch in it."
It's an Australian-ism
we NEVER said haitch in New Zealand oh no
Speaking of NZ politicians
the appalling Winston Peters once said "not only is this incredible, it's unbelievable!"
Worthy of another guy with a W name.
I still
get asked to "Oh do it in Adobe™" and then they add "I need it today as I'm going on holiday"
my replies are actually very polite because I know I can come on here and HL and spill all my pent up hatred out
and r e l a x . . .
sympathy and empathy
Me (to customer): "You want this printed A3, but it's 340 pixels wide at 72dpi."
Customer: "Can't you just Photoshop it?"
Don't get me started.....
.....that bloody Tony Blairs.....
Yous
Get worried when someone, usually a woman strangely enough and usually at a bus stop, starts using 'yous' instead of 'you' as in 'What are yous looking at?'.
I've never heard this word used by anyone who wasn't in some way unhinged, drunk or dangerous; it's like a calling card.
That is interesting
It's used certainly in Teesside and Liverpool as a second person plural and was so in standard English in the 18th century as far I'm aware (it was also perfectly reasonable to say 'you was' back then as well).
I think 'yous' is a useful word and serves much the same purpose as 'vous' in french, 'ihr' in German or 'vosotros' in Spanish. Not having it means that English lacks a little sometihng in the standard form.
Wendy Richard
Got so fed up she even called her autobiograhpy 'No S'
I agree with all the above, especially the aitch thing.
And isn't annoying how 'gotten' is creeping into our language now?
It was always in English, it just disappeared from common use
in the UK for a couple of hundred years.
Mind your Language
Being a part-time TEFL teacher in Spain the Spanish find the concept of countable and uncountable nouns strange.
For example,they get that Beer is uncountable and bottles of beer are countable,so when they hear Brits ordering "Two beers" they may ,quite rightly ,assume the person may want two different beers.
Most Spanish students struggle with abstract nouns, information,news etc.
A lot of my students will say they couldn't find the informations or they have some new.
on the subject of "H", is it a hotel or an hotel ?
Nothing bugs me more when i hear English speakers ,big hello to Alan Shearer, say stuff like "The lad done great" "he done a great pass" "i done it when i was a player".
My Favourite gag was on "Who Dares Wins" when they asked Andy Gray why Emlyn Hughes never used adverbs.
Emlyn said things like,
"The lad did (Done) great"
"we scored quick".
"I'm sure you are wrong" replied Andy.
"Andy,an adverb is a word that ends in LY"
Enter Jimmy Mulville to explain that of course Emlyn used adverbs as he'd asked if he used them in an interview yesterday.
"Of course i use them" said Emlyn "i'll give you a sentence."
"Yesterday i was chatting to me old mates Bally and Sammy Lee while we were eating a DairyLea.
I knew a TEFL teacher.
He gave it up, cos whatever he taught the kids wouldn't stick.
My grinding of the teeth moments.
"Can I get a coffee?" - No you prick, the guy behind the counter will get it for you, that's his job.
And sickth instead of sixth, it seems the chattering classes have forgotten how to pronounce the letter "x".
"Fess up", oh please....
Forgotten how to pronounce the letter 'X'?
Don't think so.
Just 'ax' anyone...
I don't raise this at work.
I don't raise this at work.
"It's ebonics" is the usual answer.
*thinks* no, it's just incredibly bad, but bite tongue.
Or worse
"Man up".
I rather like 'man up'
Though the form I use was copied from Liz Lemon on 30 Rock: 'nut up'.
I enhance this by telling people, typically those who are complaining about something which has nothing to do with me, that they 'should nut up or shut up'.
Orwellian vernacular word count reduction
"My bad"
"Bad" is a noun is it?
Orwellian vernacular word count reduction-ah
"...and there'll be three more from The Mighty Fall later"
the guy behind the counter will get it for you
and then you get it from him. What's the problem?
'Get' doesn't only mean 'fetch'.
The problem is...
"Can I get” implies that you will fetch it for yourself, "Can I have" implies that someone will do the "getting" for you, so unless you intend to go behind the counter at Cafe Nero "Can I get" is incorrect.
I do normally say haitch though, even though I know it's wrong. There, that's me fessed up.
I can't hear that distinction
I hear an implicit 'from you' in 'Can I get...?' I may be defending this structure, but it's not something I would ever say.
Of course, the person means 'May I ...' and not 'Can I ...'
The distinction between 'may' and 'might' is being eroded too, making it difficult to work out what is meant without context. For example:
'A lifebelt may have saved him' (He survived, possibly because he was wearing a lifebelt).
'A lifebelt might have saved him' (He died, because he wasn't wearing one).
I'd join in,Pete
but this is too much like work. By the way..how many of us use "have to" or "Must" correctly. And just what is the difference between a customer and a client ?
a professional TEFL teacher trainer dogmatically chips in
The use of 'Can I get...?' is more a reflection of a desire to make the order less direct. I think that the implication is that the speaker is wondering aloud whether it is possible that the fates will conspire to have a latte brought to him. What motivates the speaker is the desire to make the transaction more consensual and in the process, deconstruct the whole master/servant customer/server hierarchy. I therefore feel it's more of a kind of,'Hail fellow, well met,' form of address.
However, the tone of voice is essential here; say it brashly and all bets are off.
why oh why
and why can't
and if only
and who in their right mind
Why oh why oh...
spells yoyo
e - i - e - i - o
spells "farm" , according to the song
I got put in my place once by a client
I had the annoying habit of starting a sentence with the the words 'To be honest' - A client rightly said to me 'aren't you honest all the time?'
Try to avoid like the plague now but every so often it creeps into my sentences.
When they mean "in my opinion"
journalists and politicians often use the phrases "historians will say" or "the fact is".
For example "Historians will say that Gordon Brown was the best chancellor since the war", "The fact is the NHS needs reform."
Both types of sentence often preceded by "Look".
The implication being that
I can take a sensible long overview of the situation and see the historical perspective whereas YOU can only see a shallow, superficial view of events, therefore MY opinion has more value and import than YOURS.
A news reporter today
reporting on the crisis in the Ivory Coast, called it the Cote D'Ivory. Choose one language or the other, don't mix the two!
Indeed
And why do we use the mongrel term Bayern Munich? If it's German, it's Bayern Muenchen. If it's English, it's Bavaria Munich.
I hear you
There's also similar confusion about whether the football club should be called "Seville" or, as in Spanish, "Sevilla". (See also Copenhagen/København, Dynamo Kiev/Kyiv and quite a few others.)
The one that irks me most, though, is "MEE-lan" (yes, Jimbo, I'm looking at you). The club's official name is "AC Milan", in English, rather than "Milano", because it was originally named during that brief period when the blightier your footballing references were, the more authenticity and kudos you were thought to have (how times change, eh?). Quite reasonably, the Italians pronounce "Milan" as if it were an Italian word - after all, it's their club, so they can pronounce it how they like. But what's not reasonable is to ape their wonky English if you happen to be English yourself and so know full well how "Milan" is supposed to be pronounced. After all, no native English speaker (I hope) says "Reevair" when referring to CA River Plate, even though that's how it's pronounced in Buenos Aires and the rest of the Spanish-speaking world.
That said, even though arsenal is a Spanish word, when referring to the Mighty Arse here people invariably pronounce it as a weird Spanish-English hybrid: "AR-seh-nal", with three clear syllables but the stress inverted from the normal Spanish pronunciation (ar-seh-NAL).
I'll round off this rant with one I've mentioned before. Andy Gray calling Barcelona's No. 10 "Lionel" Messi is like talking about Robert Charlton, James Greaves, William Bremner or Kenneth Dalglish (or, indeed, Andrew Gray). Can we please stop it? It's "Leo".
But maybe
Andy is simply paying homage to Mr Brian Clough?
Young man.
Andy Gray is not alone
Every commentator I've heard calls him Lionel. I was unaware of the preference for Leo until now.
Leo/Lionel
Do commentators use the latter because it's on the team-sheets they're handed? Whichever language you choose on the Barcelona website, it's "Lionel" listed on the squad page.
Well, yes and no
The players' full identity-card/tax-return names are listed on the FCB squad sheets, so by that reckoning his teammate isn't "Xavi" but "Xavier Hernández i Creus".
If you're still not convinced, Messi's website is leomessi.com, his signature is "L. Messi/Leo 10", and look - here he is advertising custard!
Oh, I know
I'm just trying to figure out why the commentators do it, and I'm assuming it's because Barcelona use it in official communications. In this press release about Messi they use "Lionel" (as well as "Leo"), while in this one about Xavi, they only use "Xavi", not the full name. English commentators always use the shortened version of Xavi too, so they're getting that right, at least.
Or maybe it's Guillem Balague's fault - he uses both versions of Messi's first name, so maybe his colleagues assume both are OK.
Tell you what
Let's blame FIFA. That usually works.
Another half-baked theory: Could it be related to the trend away from short-form names in the Premier League? Something tells me it would have been "Dave Beckham" if he'd come to prominence a decade or so earlier. And many footballers these days seem to have names without any common short forms - a plethora of Gareths and Ashleys, rather than the glut of Rons, Tonys and Kens of times gone by.
I've always wondered...
..why British commentators don't simply ask overseas footballers how to pronounce their name, and then just use their own pronounciation. It's got a little better recently, but David Ginola, Lucas Radebe and others in the early days of the Premiership must wondered who the hell people were talking about... And as for Dirk Kuyt and Jose Mourinho...
I follow American baseball which has an approved list of pronounciations in every media guide - surely Footy has something similar?
Can tin? Ah!
That one always got me.
I remember Kuyt being asked
I remember Kuyt being asked that on MOTD when he first came. He told them, and they still pronounce it incorrectly, every time.
It's fairly easy
all they have to do is think of a pub game played here in Yorkshire and say that (without the final 's') instead.
The one who really annoys me is David bloody Pleat, who, aside from being crap, is contractually obliged to make a comically utter balls up of at least one player's name every game he's involved in.
My surname has one 'S'
at the beginning.
Most people insist upon using the more common form with an 's' also at the end.
It drives me to distraction. Especially when they do it, and I am wearing my name badge.
Aaarrrgghhhh!!!!
(I had kind-of forgotten this / not related it to the thread, until I read the Wendy Richard comment above. It is an annoyance which has become part of the daily fabric of my life...)
One of my colleagues wants an S
But rarely gets it, His surname is Stones - most people refer to him as Stone I guess because it is more commonplace.
Missing esses can be a problem too
For example, X Factor is a hit show.
Arf
Are you here all week by any chance? Anything off the menu you'd recommend? :-)
I'd be guessing at
the veal, probably with extra cheese :)
oh veal
I'll be off then - looks like I've met my Waterloo...
No one has mentioned
The Greengrocer's apostrophe yet. Surely a very Word sort of thing.
AAAA
Not to mention the Association for the Annihilation of the Aberrant Apostrophe founded by the sadly missed Keith Waterhouse.
Passionate
Everyone seems very passionate. Apprentice contestants, X Factor, footballers and sportsmen in general, nearly everyone has a "passion" for what they do.
If I went round saying I am really passionate about contract law particularly efficient breach and novation, people might rightly come to the conclusion that I am quite mad.
Ha. Good one.
One of the things about my bloody profession (teaching) is that people expect you to be "passionate" all the time whenever you're applying for jobs. Oh, and the number of times the word "moral" is used by middle and senior managers as a way of extorting more work for the same pay out of teachers is actually pretty criminal.
Moral?
Try working as a Registered Nurse for a while then talk to me about morals, or ethics, especially if you're after payment for overtime.
I have a colleague
Given to peppering sentences with the word "obviously". She'll explain something on the phone such as "obviously we'll send you a letter". If it's obvious, why is she having to explain it?
"It goes without saying ..."
If it does, then just stop there.
A few other things
Jump on our website,
"Rock on up" (to the library, betting shop, STD clinic) meaning you don't need an appointment,
He should "front up" (i.e. face the music).
'Literally'
no, you literally mean 'figuratively'
Seethes...
"In any way, shape or form."
That phrase, and "going forward", make me want to lay about me with a hedge trimmer.
Going forward
It drives me mad. I hear the business news on Today at around 6:15 and they usually have a company chairman / banker / hedge fund manager etc to interview. The words 'in future' have been become obsolete in business circles. It's always 'going forward'.
Some oxygen thief...
...of a PR person must have decided, fifteen years or so ago, that "in future" sounded a bit mimsy and vague, and "going forward" sounded more thrusting and dynamic. Whoever that person was, I hope they can fucking well sleep at night, because they are a festering cancer on the left bollock of the human race.
Which might be a slight overreaction. I just hate PR and the shite spewed by its practitioners. I'd give anything to have companies and politicians be able to have a straight conversation in public without a bunch of arseholes having first drilled them to within an inch of their lives to avoid any possible offence (and by extension, any meaning) being taken from their words. Can you imagine what it would be like to hear a senior politician or business figure actually giving their honest opinion about something?
Listen To Lucy
Excellent FT podcast by someone who routinely mocks corporate bullshit - well worth checking out.
agreed...
Lucy Kellaway rocks!
Yes
it happened today, and look what has happened to him.
I wish he'd grown a pair and told them to stick it, though.
He should
man up.
Agreed
You can always tell where I am at around 8.10am on a weekday as I can be heard shouting "Just answer the bloody question" as John Humphries tries to extract a straight answer from some dick of a politician.
"In any way, shape or form"
A phrase that means nothing, and adds nothing to a statement.
Please don't commit self-topiary Bob, it's likely to be uncomfortable!
Self Topiary
Speaking of which, I was reading in today's Guardian about something called a 'vajazzle'. Over to my fashion correspondent Hadley Freeman..
As I get older, the world is becoming more and more baffling to me :-)
Tajazzle?
Didn't she do "Love is Contagious"?
Oh, I've caught an episode of "The Only Way is Essex" Stimpy. It's programming of the highest ordure. Not only is it a reality show, it's, apparently "real people in modified situations, saying unscripted lines but in a structured way". So it doesn't even reflect reality.
Worthless toss.
So. Let me get this right about Va/Tajazzling
A lady gets her muff shaved a bit and sticks some glitter on/around it.
And it's all sexy and that.
Do blokes get a chance of a bit of this action? If I spend five minutes paying attention to my generative region with a Bic, a tube of Superglue and a few sparkly cake-decorations will I suddenly be Doctor Sex?
I'm going to give it a try.
Lenny
Super glue + generative region = potential embarrassing trip to A&E.
Please be careful.
Red
and if you can't be careful
at least be near a camera and an internet connection.
Actually, forget the camera.
generative region?
TMFTL
Scored
As in, "Yeah, I just scored some Kings of Leon tickets".
What you mean you went skulking round the back of some unsavoury derelict piss-stinking building at 2am to surreptitiously source them from an unwashed local gangster with a flick knife, or you actually got daddy to buy them for you off Ticketmaster with his platinum Visa card?
AND what about deleting the s ??
'This is a really nice jean!'
AAARGGH !!!
We should also respect Bernard Black's classic:
'We do NOT use party as a verb."