I said the same a while back. Not everyone uses them with the motives you mention, but it does happen and it is on the increase.

The pieces that tend to prompt the most emotive arguments are the posts about the site itself, much like this one. My heart sinks every time such a post is made.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the arrows, but I am considering introducing a Fight Club-style "the first rule of Fight Club is that we don't talk about Fight Club" rule.

Is comin' like a ghost blog.

(someone will castigate me for sucking up, now - bollocks to you in advance!). I love this site but I just get fed up wading through 'if you don't like it, chuff off somewhere else' or 'its not as good a site as it used to be,' or 'I was here first, now naff orff.' I know that all blog sites go through these phases but really, people. Enough already!

Speaking to a few Worders on board the HMS Massive the Sunday before last, I don't think it can be compared to an Arab Spring; just a few discontents kicking their heels until their mothers call them in for tea. It probably needs Hepworth to call order by way of an August Randomiser.

Is the point of the up arrow? Are they useful in determining what goes in the mag?

I've never been a fan of the up or down arrows and have said so before. For a Magazine/Blog that prides itself on the quality of writing and debate I always found them a little bit out of place and unecessary.

However, you are right this place has started to get a bit more nasty recently and I would like to ask Fraser if he could, at the next Word Magazine AGM, to consider these suggestions for new "Posting Guidelines".

1. Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the ;-)
I know there is an unwritten rule/bit of snobbery on here about the use of smileys, but my god, surely a well placed ;-) to denote irony or humour might solve a whole lot of arguing and misunderstanding.
It would also stop the scenario where a someone wants to say "f~~k it I really want to put a ;-) here but I'll be laughed at..." so they write something like *INSERT SMILEY HERE* - which is surely far worse than putting the damn symbol there in the first place.

2. Anybody who moans about Cliques should be forced to attend their next local Word Massive drink-up/gathering.
It is natural for adults to meet up in the real world, have a few drinks and talk bollocks about music and life in general. It is natural for some of those adults to make acquaintences and friends from those meetings. It is also natural that some of the correspondence on here might reflect that - but don't worry, nobody's talking or gossiping about YOU!

3. Do unto others...
If you want to be aggressive and abusive sitting at your keyboard in your pyjamas - then please kindly have the guts to come along to a Word Massive drink-up/gathering to debate the grievance.

Ooops, sorry nearly forgot...

;-)

the Word blog.

I enjoy the meet-ups and the magazine and neither of those are in any doubt as far as my carrying on with them but this blog used to be a place to get away from the crap out there. Instead in recent weeks it's become a place to be reminded about the crap out there. Threads about contentious issues used to be conducted civilly and, as importantly, interestingly. Now they're an excuse to play ideology trump cards: "my view is better than your view".

There have always been threads about contentious issues but the blog seems to have lost the ability to discuss those issues maturely. You could easily spot a an argumentative and emotive thread because they stood out like a sore thumb, now they seem to be part and parcel of the general content on here. Even threads you assume are fairly innocuous can suddenly flare up

I start reading a thread and it's a case of wondering how soon the bitching and finger-pointing will start. It's particularly depressing when the first post in response to an OP is openly negative, that seems to be happening more often.

I think the idea of getting rid of the up arrows is a good one. They used to be used for positive reasons but now they look increasingly like one side of entrenched views trying to announce that "the ayes have it" over the opposition.

If you think a post or OP is good I'd rather read one positive comment than see 10 up arrows. My concern is that the up arrow is now the tool of a lazy troll whose agenda is simply to piss someone else off.

How can you or anyone else say with even the slightest degree of certainty when this is happening? If I "up" person A who is arguing against a point I disagree with made by person B, am I ganging up on person B? Does it depend on whether others have previously upped Person A? Does it depend on how "inflammatory" person B's post is?

I've upped Fraser's post, because I couldn't agree with it more, especially "my heart sinks every time such a post is made." And yes, I know I've contributed to the "problem" by responding to this post. Still, if there were never again a post along the lines of "you know what I hate about this site...?" I wouldn't be sorry, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

it happens.

I've had a 'sort of' sabbatical because of it but, I'd like to extend a Laurel & Hardy handshake to Adrian.

you know who you are man :D

It seems that the most annoying aspect of the up arrows is that people can "gang up" on another anonymously. Perhaps, if there was a way of showing who had given an up arrow it might not be so much of a problem, as people are far less likely to do something like that if they can be held to account for it. But maybe that's not possible. I don't know. I don't really know how these blog things work.

Ultimately, I'm not too bothered with them.

through rose-tinted spectacles? I seem to recall a few outbreaks of bad manners, rudeness and plain ignorance in the past.

The posts that seem to me to cause most problems are the ones where politics comes into play, especially when certain posters can't resist snarky comments about anyone who holds an opposite view.

Ultimately, though, this site is what we make of it. You don't have to get dragged into a slanging match or make sarky comments. Sometimes, dignified silence or a cold shoulder is by far the best option.

Before this thread goes to 310 disputes My Morning Jacket are on the next thread in a 'Musical' performance that I think may be worth your attention! Of course you may consider it not to be! And that is your right! Don't need an up arrow either! Peace Love etc!

PS I agree with you Leedsboy, Fraser and Ahh_Bisto!

All I'll say about the Ups is that I posted about my late Dad, nearly a year ago. Twang posted a nice response which I thanked him for and went on my hols. I came back a week later to 25 'Ups'. Brought a huge smile to my face and made me glow inside. Surely that can't be a bad thing?

...I like the content and, if a point is well made, I use the up arrow. But I'm not a-quiver if no-one uses it for my posts. It's no feather in my cap. I bow to the inevitable. I have no pull. Although I'm something of a target market, I don't listen to 'The Archers'. Blogging adds another string to my bow, but in the scheme of things, the arrows don't bother me. I believe George Armstrong Custer had a similar point of view and look what that did for his reputation. There was no-one left to Sioux. I'm now going for a nice lie down.

for which you deserve recognition. Let's not forget there are people out there who perhaps don't feel confident posting, but who can happily endorse a view by giving an up arrow. If certain elements misuse the device, that shouldn't mean we do away with it.

Personally, I can see when a thread is getting out of hand and I avoid it henceforth. The snarky posts don't define the blog for me. I still maintain it is possible to have robust and respectful discussion here.

I suppose it's a question of finding the right place for a forum like this in your life. If it's taking up hours in your day, that's probably not a good thing. If you find yourself drifting away from it, then maybe you have found a bit more balance in your life.

But it would be a shame if those who helped make the blog what it is were so discouraged they left it completely. The only way to retain those parts you treasure is to stand your ground.

I like the up arrows, an important function of them is surely to lessen the amount of "i agree with this" "what he said" posts (nothing wrong with stating that tho obviously) - it's a very simple way of saying "yeh, i get it". and it's nice to get them, especially when you're not expecting it or when you don't know exactly why you've got them. And not getting any means...absolutley nothing....Remember when there were down arrows, oh that was a barrel of fun wasn't it.
I like smiley faces too and i don't apologise for them, sarcasm is not good on the internet.
I might get my coat as well, is it cold out?

I just don't see the need. If one wants to agree or disagree, or simply register ones pleasure why not just type a short sentence saying so. As for the general vibe around these here parts lately, well it has been a little snarky here & there, that's why I've not posted a great deal for a while. I'm a sensitive soul!

of late, though that's partly through circumstance. I tend to avoid the more contentious snarky places, though I if I do post there I do try to maintain some civility - life's too short not to, frankly.

Arrows? Largely redundant but sometimes a nice shorthand. I don't think I'd miss them if they were gone, though.

You'll soon remember all the big and little things you loved about this blog.

FTR: I like the fact that the arrows only go one way here.

There've been some great threads on here recently.

There was the one asking which digital camera to buy.

Then there was the one by that soft sod getting all emotional about a Stevie Wonder song.

The one about someone's gnocchi tea last week.

And there was that one about who we'd like to be famous and rich in our alternative universe.

And that's all in the last week or so!

That's the sort of quality this place needs more of.

I have no problem with anything anyone posts on here..
If I like it, I read it.. If I REALLY like it- whether or not I agree with it- I give it an up.
If I strongly disagree with it, I will try to give a relevant response.
I have only ever been angry once in 3 years of being a member here, but hey, who am I to be the arbritator of whats right and what's wrong?
Is this not the way it should be? A democracy of sorts?
There are a good few Massive Members who post quality more regularly than most, are they the mysterious clique?
Who cares?
Anyroads, my point is this: There are some favourite Posters of mine whose contributions I never miss, the favourites of mine, regardless of content.
Lenny Law, Twangathon, Helena Hardcart, James Blast, Glenbervie, The Californian, Rosbif, Bob to name but a few.
Do not go Ahh Bisto, you are one of my favourites also.

We are collectively responsible for the content of this site.

If you don't like the tone of the blog then write something that changes it. This site can be good but it requires everybody who comes here to expend a little effort in order to make it so.

(awaits some 'up' arrows for above statement...)

Really, how can they possibly matter that much? It's the things people feel called upon to say to each other (and so quickly!) that can get scary.

Again, really?

This blog has nothing tricky about it
This blog ain't black or white and as far as I know
Don't infringe on anyone's copyright, so . . .

This blog we'll let be
This blog is in E
This blog is for you and . . .

This blog has nothing Bright about it
This blog ain't bad or good and come ever what may
My expert tells me it's okay

As this blog came to me
Quite unknowingly
This blog could be you could be . . .

This blog ain't trying to win gold medals
This blog ain't hip or square
Well done or rare
May end up one more weight to bear

But this blog could well be
A reason to see - that
Without you there's no point to . . . this blog

It's all very well calling for the abolition of the up arrows, but will no one spare a thought for the magazine staff members? They routinely receive double figure up arrows for even the most mundane posts, so this proposed move will hit them harder than the rest of us.

It strikes me that if I like a post, I "up" it.

Why? Well:
1. Funny
2. Makes a point I agree with
3. Makes a point I disagree with, but is very well written. There are folks who post here, and it's stuff I don't agree with, but by God it's well written.

I tend to judge each post on how I read it, and pay no attention to the number of arrows it gets. It's about how it resonates with me, and not what others think of it. I'm in no position to judge if it's 1, 2, or 3 that prompted the arrow. I think if I did make that judgement, I'd be projecting my own view of it.

Leave them. Remove them. But I do get a kick when one of my posts gets "upped". Someone, somewhere, for some reason, liked what I wrote enough to indicate their approval. Is that such a bad thing?

I see it as a harmless form of self-congratulation. Let's face it, no other fucker ever gives me one, so let's share the (self)love here, eh?

Fnarr, fnarr.

visit other blogs but find most of them too nuts for my taste but one feature I do like that I've seen elsewhere is the ability to see who has "liked", "recommended" or, in Word parlance, "upped" a comment. I'm all for transparency and will change my user name to my real name the next time there is a user name amnesty. Perhaps revealing who has upped a comment might help?

Not sure what it would help with though, now I come to think of it.

to be honest, if there is a post or comment that has strongly stirred up a reaction whether it positive or negative I'll often post a comment, seems fair enough to me.
Having said that I have to say I've found myself posting less often (not that I did much anyway), and visiting the site not as much as I used to, this is more than likely me being jaded than anything else.
Still think its a pretty friendly place to go though compared to others, posted on mojos message board many years ago, after introducing myself I posted my first rather innocuous entry, only to be met with ridicule and bile, never went there again. My experience on the word site couldn't be more different.
Like life, there are things I like and stuff I don't, choosing to turn a blind eye to the annoying posts seems to work for me.

A couple of practices have been mentioned so far in this thread, "ganging up" and "toadying to Word writers", with the underlying message (to me at least) basically reading as follows:

"Other people do this, not me of course. And no, I can't prove it, but I can assure you it's happening all the time. No, I'm not saying who does it, just people who aren't me."

Sheesh!

I have been coming here sporadically for a few years and it still seems a generally pleasant environment to me. The recent John Martyn thread got rather heated, but people still resolved it quite pleasantly, I thought. I've never really taken notice of the arrows until this recent flare up and I could probably live without them.

Funnily enough, the most reliably rotten forum page I have seen is that of the august Times Higher Education Supplement; a viper's nests of trolling, sarcasm and outright abuse. Truly awful.

Harry Nilsson Me and my Arrow

Uncle Ben/Stan Lee are so damn relevant. Call me naive, but I always see the arrows as the aforementioned shorthand for "I like this". Sometimes a post strikes me as so well-expressed I have nothing further to add than agreement, or when time-strapped, offer an opportunity for an approving nod.

Difference of opinion fuels (and occasionally derails) this blog, but I read little malice in the click of an arrow. Nor would I see an absence of arrows as a condemnation. That, and I like Harry Nilsson, and recent posts debating his merits are a case in point: an OP is an invitation for argument, persuasion, and the like - and that's why I return, read, and enjoy.

so I must be either :-
a) Hopelessly naive
b) Completely unobservant.
c) not part of the right clique (whatever that is - if it exists)

Can I play with the big boys now?

a soapy tit wank?

Sorry, I'm off the beer.

until I read this I wasn't aware of their purpose, now Im gutted I don't get any! seriously though this is the only blog I come to and have been doing so for a relatively short time. I have been a little surprised about the occasional pettiness shown when people start to argue but I guess thats the joy of texts / the internet in that sometimes things come across wrong and also people fall out in the real world too. I recognise a few names now but tend to choose what to read /comment upon based on topic rather than who has written it. To sum up I enjoy coming here and reading what you all have to say, i may not always agree nor comment but lets just chill out and enjoy each others company.