Entertainment For Lively Minds
The Rehabilitation of Gary Glitter
Posted by Six Dog on 8 March 2011 - 8:12am.
Not sure if this has been picked up elsewhere.
The episode of Glee just aired Stateside places Gwyneth Paltrow front and centre singing 'Do You Wanna Touch Me?'. In a High School.
The tiny Daily Mail portion of my brain is screaming 'Won't somebody think of the children', the larger part thinks well, it's a great song and The Glitter Band deserve a bit of cash.
Is there less squeamishness stateside around GG (Rock n Roll airs constantly at hockey games) or because of geographic distance, remove the song from the crime as we cannot?
So, how soon is too soon and should it have been used in a school setting, however far fetched?
Interesting situation.
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Joan
I think the song is more associated in the US with Joan Jett so it's unlikely that GG was even thought of by any Glee people.
Glitter
The situation in the US is a bit different from here, as people don't know who Glitter is (he was never a star there), but they know his music because his songs get played endlessly at American sporting events. For the public they're not Gary Glitter songs, they're American football/baseball/basketball songs, and they've never been away.
Difficult.
Paul Gadd is an appalling human being.
Gary Glitter on the other hand was my first pop hero.
Maybe the Glitter Band should re-form with a new singer, and make a few quid that way. I hear George Michael is looking for gainful employment.
(Please note that I consider George to be a lovely human being, who has simply made a bit of an arse of himself lately - and paid his debt.)
Still going
The Glitter Band are still in existence. Bassist and original singer John Springate is on vocals. They toured with Captain Sensible and Jona Lewie at Christmas last year.
http://www.theglitterband.co.uk/
In tribute
I believe they performed "Nappy Talk" and "You'll Always Find Me In The Creche At Parties".
Although this is unconfirmed.
The Rehabilitation Of The Glitter Band
For those with Spotify, I'd recommend checking out The Glitter Band's "Makes You Blind". It is seriously good.
The full six minute version is on the great Disco Discharge "Classic Disco" compilation from last year.
The question is
is it possible to separate the music from the man who made it? I've often thought it's a shame his music is no longer played or revered because he's a convicted paedophile. I'm just not sure it's possible/right to ignore that, especially given the lyrical content (do you wanna touch/do you wanna be in my gang etc)
PSA
Oh my...
in the Glee context
the music is freed from its connection with GG. My 14 year old daughter watches Glee but has not the faintest idea where all the great songs have come from. So I guess that makes it alright? But who gets the royalties? Must admit though, I did enjoy seeing Mrs Martin strut her stuff
Never watched Glee
and having played that clip 5 times now I think it is disgusting.
The rehabilitation of Gary's music would be best helped by forwarding all his royalties to his victims. There is a precedent in this with all the royalties from The Move's Flowers In The Rain going to a charity of Harold Wilson's choosing. Until that day I cannot see radio stations playing his songs again in the UK.
Blimey I didn't know that about the Move
seems an extreme punishment considering the actual offense committed!
What?
What did the Move do to Harold Wilson? In the context of the thread, it sounds as if they touched him inappropriately ...
As I understand it.
The Move's manager, Tony Secunda, issued a promotional postcard featuring a caricature of Wilson featured in a compromised position with a female aide.
I think what Harold Wilson
did to The Move's career was 'disgusting'. Just because their manager pulled a stupid stunt why should Roy Wood have to suffer for years? It's a terrible story and a terrible precedent.
an odd form of collective punishment too
people deprived of royalties for an act they didn't themselves commit.
Today's Human Rights legislation wouldn't allow it...
Might be worth taking HM Government to task on it now.
What on earth does making spoof "dirty" postcards...
... of the then prime minister & his secretary in bed together and a convicted child molester have to do with each other?
Does anyone in the UK feel disgusted when a Chuck Berry record comes on the radio? He was convicted of a sex crime involving a minor.
Erm
Since I raised the subject...nothing. My point was to do with the siphoning off of royalties to a wronged party, through a damages claim, to make the music of Gary Glitter more palatable to radio stations. I could have easily chosen another example where this has happened. I don't think the Chuck Berry case had as much publicity as GG in the UK. Certainly it is very much fresh in the minds of most people here that I doubt it would be almost impossible to sell any of Gary's records, instore or online.
Oh, I see...
Fair enough.
I was going to say writing GG out of pop's history books should be punishment enough but royalties diverted to pay GG's victims would be a much better thing to do.
But...
perhaps the Americans are playing Mr Glitter's songs ironically? Oh, sorry, I forgot, they don't do irony, do they?
Of course they do
Read The Onion. Watch Friends. Watch The Simpsons. As Simon Pegg once wrote, "the whole 'Americans don't do irony' thing should be consigned to the dustbin/garbage pail of passive/aggressive international preconception."
Unless, of course, he was being ironic.
I think bassclef
was the one being ironic about Americans and irony.
I realised that as soon as I posted
Not easy, is it?
....psst
Claim your comment is ironic too. If it works for Stewart Lee.....
Most Americans DON'T get irony...
..go outside of NYC or New York (Seattle at a pinch) and all you'll get is a blank stare if you try any irony on.
The practise of raising The Simpsons or The Office or The Onion (much more whimsical than ironic anyway) as proof that Yanks do irony is almost as much of a cliche as the other.
That's not my experience
I always assumed the cliché came about because American comedy was traditionally more gag-driven than UK comedy, not because it was the reality. I've certainly never found it to be the case.
Of course it's not your experience...
..you're in the media.
You can't use American comedy as a yardstick about what happens out in middle America, surely?
Look at the most popular comedy shows in the US..not much irony going on there.
The Middle, Modern Family, The Office, The Simpsons?
Tons of it!
You may be confusing...
..smartarse gags filled with cultural references to true irony.
The day a program like "Brass Eye" does well in America will be the day I change my mind.
A programme like Brass Eye...
...didn't do well *here*. Compared to, say, My Family, Brass Eye's viewership would have been miniscule.
Anyway, I take it you've never seen Curb Your Enthusiasm? Or, for that matter, Buffy The Vampire Slayer?
Americans do irony. They just do. Denying it is as crass as someone at a disco asking the black guy to show him some moves.
I've seen all of "Curb"..thanks.
I don't think you'll find me saying anywhere that Americans don't "do" irony. (although I do think that many people here are getting irony mixed up with whimsy and satire)
I merely said that I believe that the majority of Americans don't react to irony based humour.
This is a country where Judd Apatow and Will Ferrell are comedy gods.
I don't know what your last sentence means at all.
Irony I expect.
It means you're stereotyping.
If you say so...
..although I would think that "Americans do Irony..they just do" is just another stereotype.
But I would say that..I'm a Yorkshireman and we're all the chuffing same, us.
It's not a media thing
I've travelled from coast to coast via Greyhound and been to about 40 of the 52 states. All in all I've probably spent close to a year of my life there - and all of it was before I ever worked at a magazine. That's my experience - spending time in Wichita, and Oklahoma City, and Albuquerque, and so on.
Must've took you ages
My greyhound can't go a couple of miles without needing a kip.
OK Fraser, I accept that you...
..travelled all around the US testing out some ironic humour with various mid-westerners and are not just spouting a currently popular maxim.
If its any comfort, I believe the same stats could be applied to Britain, Australia and New Zealand too.
Irony is (by and large) the playground of the educated classes.
Why didn't you say that then?
If it's an education thing, rather than an American thing, why do you single out Americans?
Dunno..
Because as a nation they're so oppressed, I guess.
Kick 'em while they're down, I say.
That's the point
Stupid Americans don't do irony, in much the same way that stupid British people don't either.
There are clearly plenty of irony-laced comics and writers in the US (many namechecked already), just with a mainstream broadcast network system that doesn't think the audience will get it. That does appear to be (slowly) changing though.
I have loads of colleagues
in Virginia and they not only get irony, they dish it out as well. Don't start them on sarcasm either.
Two words...
Randy Newman.
I'm sure it was bassclef...
Who was being ironic, ridiculing the sometimes perceived notion that the US is an irony free zone, a notion the users of this forum understand to be way off the mark.
I suggest we strike a deal
We'll acknowledge their irony if they'll recognise that dentistry actually does play a role in our culture.
British Teeth
A few years ago, I knew a lecturer in American politics who told me that the idea of bad British teeth had been promoted by American dental associations in the fifties as an attack on public health services. Look at the British - they've got the NHS and they've ended up with terrible teeth.
I don't know how right he was. But here's a link to an article in The Economist about an OECD survey in 2009 which showed that "Britain's children (along with Germany's) have the healthiest teeth, if not the straighest or whitest in later life."
http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?sub...
That's
ironic.
Like rain on your wedding day?
Or maybe a free ride when you've already paid.
Tap tap
Hello? Hello? Is this thing on? Hello?
Sorry,
a simple explanation.
I forgot to press the irony key on my keyboard.
MyAmericanMate sussed me out straight away.
is it difficult?
As adman intimates above, the person might be a loathsome piece of work, but the music is pretty good. I disagree, however, with the notion that there is any difficulty with this. If the music is good, it should still be getting played on the radio. I'd imagine that there are plenty of pop /rock icons who were (or are) contemptible human beings.
There is something rather sinister about the way that Glitter's work has been airbrushed from history. If it can be done to him, it can be done to others.
Sinister?
How many circumstances are there likely to be where someone has to even consider whether there isn't another glam rock track that could be played rather than one by a convicted paedophile who would get royalties from its use? Outside of a GG bio-pic, I doubt there are many.
It's extremely unfortunate for his backing band who are blameless and probably relied on that cash for their pensions, but it's not hard to understand nor sinister.
well ...
I'm not at all convinced by your 'either /or' argument.
Every time a DJ plays one song, s/he automatically doesn't play about 8 million others. If the decision to play said track is based on anything other than the quality of the work, there is a problem.
If there is an unwritten law (or a degree of self-censorship, brought about by groupthink on a massive scale) then I think we are indeed in the realms of the something rather sinister.
This is not about Glitter, of course. It's about the process by which Glitter has been excluded from the canon. As I said in the previous post, if it can happen to him for one reason, it can happen to someone else for another.
I don't think
you can separate the person from the process - surely that's the point?
Is Galliano's current collection going to do well? No, because he's just been discovered to be a racist bigot. Has nothing to do with whether the clothes are any good.
You need the passage of time before your works can get appraised apart from your foibles. Stephen Fry can go into rhapsodies about how much he loves Wagner despite his own Jewishness and Wagner's anti-semitism because there are no consequences of doing so.
There are consequences to playing a GG record that many people would feel uncomfortable with. It has nothing to do with whether he wrote great pop songs and I don't think anyone's confused about this.
and again
No, I think you can separate the person from the process, but we're not going to agree on this, are we ;)
Roman Polanski is a horrible little creep, but he has made some excellent films. How much time was required to pass after his offence before we were allowed to watch his films without feeling awkward? I think the amswer is: precisely no time at all.
I think that is largely because today's climate is altogether more oppressive (and judgemental) than that which prevailed in the mid-seventies.
Save for a couple of really good singles, I care little for Glitter's music. My main point is about the process by which his work has been marginalised. I see no arguments here to convince me that I shouldn't be concerned about this process.
I don't think it's necessarily a conscious process; and that, in a way, makes it worse.
I agree
we're unlikely to agree, but perhaps I can attempt to tidy up some of my thoughts.
I certainly agree with you that Glitter shouldn't be airbrushed from the history of glam rock, in which he is a significant player.
I agree with you that Polanski's films and Glitter's music should be appraised apart from the respective crimes and that Glitter has been penalised in a way that Polanski has not. I don't think you should feel guilty for enjoying the works of either man. I suspect that this, at least in part, relates to the fact that a pop star is more likely to be associated with their songs than a director with their films, even one of Polanski's standing.
However, I completely disagree with you that there is anything sinister whatsoever about someone deciding not to play the music of a convicted peadophile who would collect royalties from those plays.
Now, where did I put my JLb-8 records? It's paedogeddon!
The canon?
Maybe he's excluded from the canon because he is, and always was, utterly shit?
It's interesting
how the warm glow of nostalgia will nearly always provide us with a rose-tinted view of things.
Lest we forget, everything about Gary Glitter - starting with his name, possibly the most unashamed, cynical cash-in in pop history - was shite of the highest order.
But Rock and Roll IS really a great pop record.
As is Hello, Hello.
"I didn't know I loved you...
'til I saw your sausage roll"
In my teens I was sent on an "outward bound-type" course for a week by the company I worked for, staying in a large and historic mansion. Well it was me and 14 other teens. They were all the other sex. On the coach back to civilsation they all sung Gary's latest platter with their revised lyrics. I was scared.
I think it *is* sinister
If Gary Glitter records shouldn't played on the radio, should there also be a big hole in the "W Classical" section of record shops where you might expect Wagner to be? Should Waterstones stock the stories of Jorge Luis Borges, a vocal apologist for those nice men in uniform who hurled their political opponents out of aeroplanes without a parachute? Or how about Celine? Or Mishima? Or Ezra Pound? Should we purge the world's DVD shelves of all copies of Lethal Weapon IV, not because it's not very good but because it's got Mel Gibson in it?
Boycotting Gary Glitter's creaking forty-year-old pop canon today is akin to refusing to drive down an autobahn because it was built by the Nazis. Surely we have to distinguish between the art and the artisan or at this rate we'll have nothing left to listen to except Mary O'Hara.
I don't think sinister is the right word
It doesn't fit well with the crimes, which I would say would be a more appropriate use of the word sinister.
Not being able to boycott Gary Glitter's songs would surely be worse? I think people are able to make their own minds up on this kind of stuff - and that should include DJ's and tv show producers.
One of the problems is that if the radio doesn't play Gary Glitter songs, it is assumed that it is because of his crimes. Yet when they don't play Cliff Richard or Status Quo, its just artistic reasons.
The autobahn analogy doesn't work for me either. People largely use a road to get somewhere because they have to (or want to). People largely listen to music because of how it makes them feel. If a person cannot disassociate a crime committed by the performer of a song, then it will likely have a negative impact on that persons enjoyment of the song and inclination to buy or listen. Glitter has himself to blame for the connotation his music brings to many people.
Disassociation isn't that hard
We do it all the time. A few years ago Ezra Pound got a nice shiny blue plaque put up on the house where he used to live. Oddly, it just says "Poet" on it, not "Vicious Anti-Semite".
Why can't it be "Gary Glitter, Ultranaff Seventies Pop Act" in ultranaff-Seventies-pop-related contexts such as the radio, rather than always and only "Gary Glitter, Predatory Paedo"?
Apparently it is quite hard
given he died in 1972.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3556300.stm
Yes
The Board of Deputies of British Jews were unhappy about it, too, but a good pome don't care who wrote it.
Well I think I'm
bright enough to do most things that require a modicum of common sense. I'm fairly liberal on the whole. But I'm not prepared to force myself to forget things I know in order to listen to some music by Gary Glitter.
Mind you, I've no idea about Ezra Pound. And I've no compunction to find out too much. Poems? Yuk.
So if we like an artist's persona
say Randy Newman's wit and humour and this adds to our pleasure of listening to his music that's ok. But is someone's a louse (at best) and we find this displeasing we should just get over it? How can you separate the artist from the art especially in popular music where the person's charisma etc is a large part of their appeal whether we are willing to admit it or not.
I think one issue here is that
by playing GG's music you generate income for him which he seems to spend in furtherance of his abusive behaviour (ie his trial in the far east after already being convicted in UK).
And yet...
It's his money, quite lawfully gained and to which he's entitled as much as anyone else who had hit records a long time ago. That income is in no way connected to his crimes. Profiting from a crime or from the notoriety that goes with it, à la OJ Simpson, is wrong, but that's not the case with GG's old hits.
Although it was obviously on a completely different level, Jeffrey Archer's behaviour has been universally condemned as reprehensible but, like GG, he did his time. Would you now deny him his royalties from the books he wrote before he was convicted?
Criminal accountability can't be retroactive to a time before the crime was committed. Surely, just as you can't get the Yorkshire Ripper to pay back the wages he earned as a lorry driver, you can't expect Gary Glitter not to keep his royalties.
but GG
went to jail came out and went abroad and committed further offences and was able to do this because he has income presumably from royalties earned in recent years (seeing he spent like a sailor in 70's I doubt there's much left from those days). So if people play his records toady he gets performers royalties at least. I was merely saying why add to his spending power.
Spent like a sailor in the seventies
I did that & I was permanently skint.
Had some fucking great times, dont regret a thing.
Glitter
I think there are two main aspects of the Glitter oeuvre that create a challenge to listening to his music in light of his crimes.
The first is the fact that his fan base was, largely made up of young pop fans in the kind of age bracket that resonates too much with his crimes. The second is the lyrics which in their simple structure and clumsy sexuality of the words make it difficult to disconnect from what I know about him now.
I don't think he's been airbrushed from history but the later chapters do make many people uncomfortable listening to his work.
Is there ever a bad time...
...to post THIS?
That's a BIG tub of lube...
and he's coming for YOU!
Why would the Glitter Band get any money?
Surely it was written by Glitter/Leander?
Whilst I appreciate what GG did was reprehensible and has put me off playing his stuff some bands are happy to cover Charles Manson songs. And -slightly differently - no-one seems to have a problem with Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry anymore.
In the case of covers that's probably the case
did he not have any music credits but presumably he get performers rights income when his records are played.
as usual, the answer is Luke Haines
Excellent.
I love Luke Haines.
Not everyone thinks these are great songs
No offence to those who were sub-teens in 1972, but I remember watching TOTP aghast when GG first appeared. He cut a sad and ludicrous figure from the word go, looking for all the world like an oversized, flabby turkey bursting out of his BacoFoil suit.
The music was painfully simplistic and trite, reducing the overworked glam format down to its absolute lowest common denominator.
The Americans are more than welcome to it.
the early stuff was good
I wasn't a big fan, didn't buy anything after Rock n Roll part 2, but in 1972 glam was not yet 'overworked' as you say and so things like Rock n Roll and Do You Wanna Touch were still fresh and exciting to many.
Even in 1973
and without knowing what was to come, I remember thinking there was something more than a little creepy about:
1) titling a song Do You Wanna Touch Me?
2) encouraging your prepubescent audience to sing along with it
Wasn't there?
Even into the 1990s
Gary Glitter's annual pre-Christmas arena tour was attended by many thousands of happy punters, intent on a good night with much shouting of "Leader!" prior to the main event. I worked on one such show where the support act was the original Village People. Imagine how the flabby turkey looked at that time. Most of the vocal lines were taken by the backing singers while GG did an awful lot of posing but the shows sold well every year.
I saw him in full 'LEA-derrr' mode one New Year's Eve
and had a great time
Me too
Near Christmas at Barrowlands, mid 80s. It was a lot of fun.
i worked at one of those in the late 80s
the crowd loved him.
I also saw him.
At the SEC. Three consecutive Christmas Eves.
The comeback gathers pace...
...according to this from Digital Spy this morning:
"Members of the X Factor production team have reportedly investigated claims that Gary Glitter was spotted at auditions in London.
The Sun reports that members of the public believed that they had seen the convicted paedophile queuing to perform at the O2 arena.
"We recognised who it was immediately, despite his hat and glasses," Jay Brown told the paper. "I Googled pictures of him on my Blackberry phone - and saw a couple of moles on his cheekbone, and a line of scarring on the right side of his face.
"When I tried to take his picture he kept turning away. I also recognised the gravelly voice."
He claimed that the man believed to be Glitter swore about waiting in the cold and sang, "Why are we effing waiting?"
A show source said: "Production staff were being questioned and tapes looked at."
However, an X Factor spokesperson added that they did not believe it was Glitter after investigating."
Separate the rhyme from the crime
It's all you can do. I love his music.
There is no rehabilitation of offenders act...
...for certain offences, so there is no way back for Gary Glitter. I must admit I do find that his exclusion in every Glam Rock TV programme is conspicuous as for my memories of that style and period in music, he was a key player.
Bay City Rollers
Saturday Night, Boom Shang a Lang, Bye Bye Baby - all wheeled out pretty regularly.
BCRs "wheeled out pretty regularly"
Really? Where? The only time I've heard Bye Bye Baby in the last twenty years is when Love, Actually was on over christmas.
Fair comment
You can add *Mud, the Rubettes, *Wizzard, Sweet, even *Slade to that list - no glam rock, other than T Rex, is played anywhere ever.
*Apart from in December, natch.
Planet Rock is your friend.
Slade and The Sweet get a semi regular turn. Cum on Feel the Noize a particular favourite.
Last time I heard
mention of a Rollers' song was several years ago on The League of Gentlemen.
A hospital DJ speaks:
"This one's for Abi who's just had her first abortion.
It's Bye Bye Baby, by the Bay City Rollers."
Saturday Night
Was on GOLD over the weekend.
I think for many people
what sticks in the craw most is the thought that playing or buying his records generates income for him. What would be great is if there was some kind of Attachment of Earnings order that could be wacked on his royalties and divert them straight to the NSPCC and some charities in the countries where he committed his crimes. Then we could enjoy the music for what it is and know that the earnings it generates are doing some good in the world.
I have studied the video and given it my considered thought.
I conclude that: Gwinnie P. You would. A lot.
Was there anything else?
Like DC sez,
Once you associate the artists morality or personal actions with the art where do you stop? Ban Eric Clapton cause he night be a racist? George Michael cause he's gay? Lemmy cause he smokes tab? Whatever side of the political spectrum you are, it's a form of totalitarianism to do this. I've seen it seriously suggested that old movies featuring people smoking should be banned from beng screened, that lobby obviously having been successful in ensuring even contemporary flms that are about terminal heroin addicts don't show them ruining their bodies with cigarettes.
and you have to accept that morality's relative. Wagner was anti-semitic in a time when anti-semitism was a commonality, not an aberrant point of view. This isn't a defence of Glitter, but a comment about how linking the artist with the art, or trying to impose current morality on art, is a dangerous road to start going down. 'Playing 'I'm The Leader' doesn't promote paedophilia. And if you start talking about sequestering his royalties, again, where do you stop? Should all Phil Spectors wealth be given to a murder victims charity? Should Gene Simmons be forced to hand over his wealth to the state cause he's Jewish? He would have been in Germany in 1938.
He's not been banned though
It's just very few people want to hear it. There is a big difference between that and being banned.
There's banned and there's "Banned"
Old TOTPs are regularly shown in Germany, and GG's perfomances are always excised, even when he's number 1 in that week's show. It seems to be the Frankie Goes To Hollywood type of "ban", where the BBC aren't actually refusing to play a song or artist, just saying that they don't feel their public wants to hear it, which is either more or less sinister depending on your point of view.
And can we please get rid of this notion that royalties should be siphoned off in a more "worthy" direction? So by that logic, convicted felons aren't allowed to earn a living anymore? All their wages should go to charity? If we just want them to starve & die, let's bring back CP and get it over with. Or would we rather them live off benefits?
Can we please get the word sinister in context
The BBC not playing a song is not sinister. What Gary Glitter did is sinister. One is an editorial decision based upon what they think is appropriate, the other is sexually assaulting children. Oh for a little context when we discussing a fat pop star's songs and his crimes.
The Glitter Conundrum
The solution is for DJs to compile a list of every artist ever, in order of the number of sex offences they've committed. Then they can be played in order.
Can't say fairer than that.
Who wants to know what my current favourite song is?
Okay, it's this:
"Such a cruel world to be alone in"
I doubt if there's a week goes by when I don't play a piece of music made by a certifiable fruitcake who's been banged up for murder.
But his records don't really have any relevance to his crime. GG's sort of do.
Why?
Why do you think Glitter's records are 'sort of' relevant to his crime and yet Spector's are not?
And does the fact that you are comfortable playing records by a murderer mean that you think that child abuse is the more heinous crime?
It kind of makes sense to me
Glitter's records somehow feel more sinister in hindsight than Spector's do. Maybe because they sold so well to teens and pre-teens?
Murder
I think it's fair to say that, rightly or wrongly, child sex offenders are considered worse than murderers in the eyes of the public.
mmm ...
That would be 'wrongly', I reckon.
Victims of child abuse have at least the possibility of recovering from the abuse.
I don't think anyone woud disagree with that
Nevertheless, there does appear to be a level of fear/hysteria/hatred involved when child abuse is the crime that doesn't typically occur elsewhere.
True
But both are utterly reprehensible.
Really..
..murder has many tiers does it not?
Manslaughter, crimes of passion, sanctioned murder..execution.
Normal people commit murder every day.
Even though the more enlightened of us know that child sex offenders are usually victims themselves, there is no such differentiation when it comes to them.
Murder
is murder. There is intent to take a life with malice aforethought. There is not specific intent on manslaughter, just that it was a reasonable foreseeable outcome.
There can be no sanctioned murder in a strict legal sense, if its sanctioned, its not murder.
Crimes of passion are not a recognised legal defence. It could be diminished responsibility or insanity are defences but you aren't allowed to murder your partner because you found them in bed with someone else.
The controversy is preposterous
the killings are clearly ironic
Murders, Americans and Irony
This thread is absorbing all the other threads.
Elvis?
"Murders, Americans and Irony"
Are you sure that's not the name of an upcoming Elvis Costello album?
I think Gary Glitter's records
I think Gary Glitter's records are "sort of relevant" to his crime because the ones I know are basically a pretty blatant sexual come-on to his audience Even before the child abuse stuff came out there was something a bit creepy about Gary Glitter, a fat middle-aged bloke dressed in Bacofoil imploring teenage girl to "touch me there". I think it's hard to listen to his records without being reminded of it all.
The same isn't true of Phil Spector. Plus, PS's records are great and GG's are a bit crap really.
"...his records don't really have any relevance to his crime"
Hmmmm... The case for the prosecution...
The defence rises
And will probably get it in the neck, but ...
The most surprising thing about the Phil Spector murder is that anyone was surprised by it. His derangement and obsession with guns had been well documented for decades.
Don't see what relevance "He Hit Me" has though. The song depicts a girl being hit by her boyfriend in a jealous rage. The scenario of the murder Spector committed was nothing like that. "He Hit Me" was written by Gerry Goffin and Carole King, "inspired" by their live-in nanny Little Eva (who did The Locomotion). Gerry Goffin: "she had this boyfriend and she was off for the weekend and when she came home she was all black and blue. She said, 'he hit me and that must mean he really loves me'." Goffin & King were were suitably horrified, but also in the business of writing melodramatic soap-ish pop songs and they thought this was a theme worth making a song out of. Any social worker will tell you that women excusing men who duff them up on the basis that "he only does it because he cares/loves me" is very common. Reporting it isn't condoning it. It's a shocking, unpleasant song and it's supposed to be: it's about a shocking, unpleasant fact of life.
Good points well made
I know what the song is about and its history.
For me, the link is casual violence against women, something Phil was guilty of throughout his life and which culminated in the ultimate act of violence against a woman - for reasons I doubt you or I will ever be privy to.
Reporting it may not necessarily be condoning it...but the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive either. Spector had the ultimate editorial decision as to whether to record and release the song, and - even at that stage in his career - his attitude towards women was clearly established.
It's pure speculation on my part, but the release could just as easily be seen as justification for his attitude towards women - Spector was no stranger to jealousy, was he? Ask Ronnie Spector!
Now I love the music Spector was involved in writing and producing as much as the next man - but he was, and is, an odious human being, as is Glitter.
Exhibit B:
I've said it before..
Imagine if the Bill 'n' Mandy story had broken now. Rock star admits nobbing 14 y/o ingenue. He'd be dragged through the streets by his heels and torn to pieces by a baying mob before having his remains incinerated upon a blazing pyre of Sunday Mail colour supplements.
At the time, the newspaper eds just used it as an excuse to print a few publicity pictures of a young Mandy Smith modelling some racy underwear under a "She might be jailbait but, phwoar, you wouldn't think it, would you?" banner.
There's never a bad time to trot this out...
The 15-year old Charlotte Church being described as a "big girl" and "chest swell", on the opposite page to a piece castigating Channel 4 for broadcasting the "Brass Eye" paedophile special... you couldn't make it up etc. etc.
Mandy Smith up there...
... looks about 30 to me but she was 18 or 19 when she married Bill Wyman; also Ms Church above, styled as she is, looks much older than 15 ... it's just as well i never worked in a bar
PS: Wyman first started dating Smith when he was 47 and she was 13. Words fail me.
This reminds me
The Sunday Sport (I think) had a series of photos over several weeks of a young model starting fully clothed and eventually baring all - on the exact Sunday that was her 16th birthday. A bit creepy.
Particularly given the fact that the photo session was plainly the same one over several weeks and therefore must have been done before she was 16. Therefore, the paper was publishing nude pictures of a minor.
Sick show is right
so funny I nearly threw up.
And,,
Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, Todd Rundgren, Elvis, .. Are you boycotting listening to them as well?
Jimmy Page as well
(allegedly, of course)
and
a certain Phil Collins loving footballer,who.allegedly,had a 14 year old girlfriend who (The Girl) was also seeing a well-known drug dealer.
The first rule of blind items is...
"Narrow down the field enough to give people a chance of figuring it out."
All footballers love Phil Collins.
Reminds me of a bloke I once worked with.
As a young man, he met a lass down the pub. He reckoned she was about 18. The relationship, at her bidding, rapidly became an enthusiastically physical one. After a week or so, she says "It's my birthday next week!" He asks how old she's going to be. "Fifteen!" she says.
The chap dumped her on the spot, letting her know that what he'd been doing was illegal and spent the next few months expecting her dad or the police to come calling.
and it's Pancake Tuesday...
... as well.
You've got me stumped
"and a certain Phil Collins loving footballer,who.allegedly,had a 14 year old girlfriend who (The Girl) was also seeing a well-known drug dealer"
I think I may know the footballer you allude to, but can't think of any well known drug dealers
(apart from that Marquess chap years back)
Todd Rundgren?
I'm a massive Rundgren fan and wasn't aware that he was involved in anything like this. What's the story?
Glitter's music used to advertise nappies?!
Well, almost. I wasn't the only one to think the track used in this recent advert for Pampers owed more than a little to Rock 'N' Roll Part 2
And what about...
Doctoring The Tardis?
What Larks?
It is a tad unfair that Glitter's stuff has been snipped from history when other dubious artists are 'forgiven' (or y'know, still played/viewed/read etc) but isn't that because his records weren't taken particularly seriously anyway? So you might stick one on at a wedding disco but (by-and-large-with-some-exceptions-I'm-sure-so-please-don't-berate-me-Glitter-fans) no one thought of them as any more than a 'Lark'.
When the first thing that comes to mind on hearing said record is 'CONVICTED PAEDOPHILE' it surely seems less of a 'Lark' and spoils the fun somewhat.
Polanski/Pound even Spector produced work that works beyond 'fun' (well Pound's a poet so there's not even trace elements of 'fun' going on there)
Hence the Americans don't have qualms about it 'cos they don't really know the 'story'* so they just hear the song.
*and indeed - that bears my point out, if they actually liked or cared about the song enough they'd probably know who/what he was.
A thought for Mike Leander's two sons
Imagine the inheritance they have been denied by Glitter's actions?
I'm reminded
of this timeless line from Vic & Bob's Shooting Stars:
Vic: Whose catchphrase was "you dirty old man"?
Guest: er, Harold Steptoe?
Vic: No, Gary Glitter's parole officer!