Entertainment For Lively Minds
The drummer was the most talented one
We all know a drummer joke or twelve, but there are certain bands where you could claim (in retrospect if nothing else) that the drummer was the most talented one. Without having anything against Kurt Cobain I think it´s fair to say that Dave Grohl is experiencing a more stimulating career than Kurt did. Perhaps due to the fact that Kurt seemed incapable to enjoy things in general, the poor sod.
Not only is Dave Grohl the leader/singer/guitarist of Foo Fighters, he´s also been a part of Josh Homme´s Queens Of The Stone Age (drummer on their yet to better album Songs For The Deaf) and trio Them Crooked Vultures (with John Paul Jones and Josh Homme) and masterminded Probot (a sort of heavy metal All Star Band thing). I could go on, really.
But the question is - any other drummers that was the driving force behind a band, went on to form a better/more successful band or enjoyed a solo career more successful than the band he/she was first associated with?
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Dave Grohl v Kurt Cobain
Kurt Cobain was a genius. His music will stand the test of time and be discovered and admired by generations to come. Grohl has spent his career post-Nirvana playing tepid radio-rock (Foo Fighters) and getting involved in sundry back-slapping wankathons with his showbiz buddies (QOTSA, Eagles of Death Metal, Tenacious D, Them Crooked Vultures).
One nil to the man in the stripy threadbare jumper.
Disagree. Pretty strongly.
Cobain attains "saint" status because of "that stupid thing" and leaving a good looking corpse.
His recorded output is fair to middling and those songs falling into the "fair" category are pretty much Pixies/Vaselines facsimilies.
Overrated probably invented for Cobain/Nirvana.
My opinion only probably not held by many.
Absolutely.
Nevermind is, of course, a nailed-on classic but In Utero is a pretty-much unlistenable pile of wank. Nirvana are revered more because of what they were and what Cobain did rather than for their musical legacy. Although a couple of generations of moody teenagers may wish to differ.
Mind you, the Them Crooked Vultures album is also pretty grim so Dave Grohl doesn't stand completely innocent.
In Utero...
...is the best Nirvana album by some distance, IMO. The best synthesis of pop hooks and ear-bleeding, punishing noise I can think of.
BTW, I'm with Sam on the Grohl/Cobain thing. Kurt wasn't the genius he is sometimes held up to be (but then, neither was Lennon, but that doesn't stop some people, especially here). He was, however, often touched by genuine, one-in-a-million inspiration, and had a way with an unconventional hook, an odd chord sequence and a strange-but-pretty melody that is unmatched by almost anyone apart from the obvious greats.
Dave, as nice and as talented a chap as he is, is not an artist. He's a highly-skilled tradesman, which is fine, but different. The only thing he's done that stands totally on its own merits as a great piece of work is "The Colour And The Shape", which is fantastic.
Superb rock drummer, though. Possibly the best ever, for his combination of power, technical ability, understanding of songcraft and his restraint. Neil Peart and co. could take some lessons from him in the latter two.
Not Echoes, Silence, Patience And Grace?
THE standout album of the last few years. Long Road To Ruin and The Pretender are mightily powerful power-pop tunes and classics by anyone's reckoning. And I love Stranger Things Have Happened as a piece of stripped-down tunesmithery. Not sure what you mean about Mr G being a tradesman rather than an artist. As a multi-talented musician, front-man of one of the World's biggest bands and writer of a hatful of fine, fine songs, what does he have to do to become an "artist"? Be all stroppy and tortured? Wear leather trousers more often? Deny any friendship with Chris Moyles?
Good point about his restraint as a drummer, though. What creates fine drumming isn't so much the hitting of the kit but the timing of the spaces. He who knows how to use spaces is wise.
The artist thing.
He's just not very inspired as a songwriter. Workmanlike, is I suppose what I mean: the bits fit together, but don't do much of interest. I haven't rated a Foos record since TCATS (which, as I say, I think is wonderful), and generally see them as pushers of unremarkable FM rock these days. They bore me rigid, sad to say.
It's nothing to do with being tortured, or conforming to any of the panoply of rock stereotypes. I think Kurt would've been infinitely more interesting if he'd lived, and not been a junkie.
Nirvana (US)
Almost the exemplar of style over substance.
My two cents?
Cobain: Too fond of the quiet/loud Pixies thang. Pretty boy image designed to appeal to the student indie hordes.
Grohl: Very effective drummer, good frontman, gives good beard
Novoselic: Who he?
That gorilla from the Cadburys ad
Drummer when Genesis at peak, then lead vox, then solo giant then tipping point and public apathey.
Those who shun the commercial channels are probably wondering - uh, wot gorilla?
just for a moment
i thought you meant it was him in the gorilla suit
The obvious answer is...
Phil Collins - not in every sense, perhaps, but in two distinct senses. Firstly, it seems to be widely acknowledged that he was the most accomplished musician in the band; certainly that was the view expressed by Mike Rutherford and (I think) Tony Banks in last year's Prog Britannia documentary. Then in a commercial sense, he certainly shifted a lot of units (though the band were still doing pretty well commercially then). For what it's worth, I also just about prefer his voice to that of Peter Gabriel.
A complete range of Phil Collins products:
You want mass-market prog? He does Genesis
You want a Mahavishnu-lite widdle fest? He does Brand X
You want sensitive solo stuff? He does Face Value
My mate John The Drummer
who deps in for Wilko sometimes, rates PC as the drummer's drummer for his versatility.
Iggy.
He was the drummer in the Iguanas, formed the Stooges, then went on to a more successful solo career.
Has anyone actually heard The Iguanas
Or are they only known as that-band-Iggy-used-to-drum-in? They are usually mentioned in interviews with him.
Still a pretty decent claim to fame, though (for The Iguanas, I mean).
Here they are, Ola ;-)
Thank you, kind sir!
I like his drumming. Straight forward in a way I didn´t really think it would be. Was expecting it to be a bit more Keith Moon, given Iggy´s later persona.
The drummer from
Razorlight?
Bill Bruford from Yes??
Meg White...no...wait.....
topper
Headon was generally regarded as the best musician in the Clash.
My "I'll get my coat" contribution would be Bobbie Gillespie.
If Ringo was the second best drummer in the Fabs
(I know, I know, bear with me)
Then the 'best' drummer in the Fabs carved out a pretty decent career for himself.
Also, Levon Helm, anyone?
Oh, and Six Dog - given the method of despatch adopted, I'm willing to speculate that the corpse wasn't that good-looking...
Ringo's drumming
is hugely underrated.
Its simplicity belies his technical proficiency, no pyrotechnic percussion to be found here, rather something that meets the needs of the song perfectly without being showy. Even his only drum solo, on The End is brief and understated.
Not that his drumming on Helter Skelter wasn't 'hot' enough to give him blisters on his fingers. But my favourite Ringo moment is the hypnotic and repetitive beat on Tomorrow Never Knows.
You'll have no quibble from me
On the quality of Ringo's drumming - the glue that held the rest of the band together.
I was merely using Lennon's (hilarious) quote to shoehorn the Fabs into Ola's thread.
Not Levon....
...but second drummer Richard Manuel, on the other hand.
Levon is a great drummer and singer (and personality)
But comes up slightly short on the songwriting. Although I really like both Dirt Farmer and Electric Dirt, the post The Last Waltz-albums The Band did certainly missed Robertson´s songwriting.
I think Levon was pretty much the early Band´s musical leader, when they were still The Hawks. Then the balance of the band changed when Robbie emerged as the main writer around the time of their second album.
Just don´t tell me you saw The Band live back in the day... Well?
Funnily enough...
...no, not this time. Not sure they ever got to Liverpool - other than with Bobby Z, on the 'Judas' tour?
Have been trying to track down some sort of list of all
The Band´s concerts, but am yet to succeed. I do know they played Copenhagen, Denmark on the tour that would end up being recorded and released as the great Rock Of Ages.
An acquaintance of mine saw them in Copenhagen and has been kindly asked to reveal things like "what was it like? was it any good?". It was, apparently, pretty damn good. It would, wouldn´t it?
It seems likely they stopped by England too if they played Denmark. There must be someone out there who knows.
If it's any help...
I saw The Band at Wembley Stadium in summer of 74, third on the bill below Joni Mitchell and headliners CSN&Y
Isn't there a Nick Lowe anecdote that The Band rehearsed their set at Brinsley Schwarz's studio?
Yes!
Nick told that story on Elvis Costello´s Spectacle, Levon Helm also present. Brinsley couldn´t understand why their equipment suddenly sounded so good.
I´m not sure if it´s any help that you saw them live. It´s not my fault I´m too young. Need to have a talk with my mom.
Pretty good line-up here:
Surely...
...the point about The Band was that they had a huge range of talents: three amazing singers, mostly all incredible instrumentalists and amazingly adaptable and versatile. When that was no longer the case, and they became too dominated by their virtually sole songwriter, they split up. As amazingly talented as Levon Helm is, I can't in all conscience include them in a list of groups where the drummer is head and shoulders above the rest. Listen to the drum breaks in Rag Mama Rag, for instance. They are performed by Richard Manuel.
There are few bands, I think
That can match the talent of The Band member for member, so to speak. But I think the power struggle as far as leading goes was between Levon and Robbie. Richard and Rick (singing, songwriting talent and musicianship not withstanding) just wasn´t leaders as such. Garth is Garth and can play anything he gets his hands on, but I really can´t see him lead a band apart from when it comes to playing.
Stuart Copeland
easily the most talented musician in The Police. And he's chinned Sting on more than one occasion. Hats off Massive!
Big fan of Stewart here
Some time ago my daughter and I were playing a Playstation 2 game, one of the Spyro the Dragon series.
One challenge involved flying Spyro around, performing aerobatics and collecting gems (don't ask). Quite difficult I thought. The constant repetition of this was eased by the funky rhythm looping in the background.
I was so impressed I checked the music credit on the box. Stewart Copeland, no less.
Completely agree, but he's not really
one for the OP. Loved Klark Kent (not many people would know it), and all he's been doing is soundtracks and World Music tourism since the Police to my knowledge.
He was also a judge
on pro-celeb 'singing' programme Just The Two Of Us, and made it just about bearable to watch.
Quite right
He's still my favourite Policeman though.
Grant Hart
Always my favourite member of Husker Du. Tended to write more melodic songs than Bob Mould.
Switching from drums to guitar, his solo stuff is not exactly popular in terms of sales, but he can certainly still write a tune!
His latest album "Hot Wax" is a Spotify favourite in this house.
Well, he might qualify in terms of improvement since Husker Du
'cos I hated the tracks he wrote back then, loved the Bob Mould ones, and spent a long time editing Mould tracks to tape from Warehouse Songs and Stories.
If I could get Spotify I might follow your recommendation, but we don't get it round our way.
Jellyfish
You've got to love a guy who can front a band with fantastic harmonies and play the drums - standing up!
I was
thinking much the same thing as I saw the thread title. Those are two wonderful albums.
Karen Carpenter
was a pretty decent drummer. A lot of good drummers thought so including none other than Buddy Rich. As a singer, she was sublime.
Meg White
*runs away giggling*
Don Henley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Henley
Excellent call, MrRadio.
How about Mickey Dolenz?
The original singing drummer. Assuming he did actually play the drums?
Yes.
The most under-rated voice of the sixties.
And Reni, undoubtedly the most gifted of The Stone Roses.
Well...
...I for one doubt that he was most gifted of The Stone Roses.
He was better than the singer, mind.
You might doubt it
but none of them do.
I beg to differ
Drummer Chris Curtis was singing lead on The Searchers' records three years before the advent of The Monkees.
He wasn't...
...THE most talented member of the Monkees though, was he?
The mighty Janet Weiss
is certainly the hardest working drummer in rock...
See also Stephen Malkmus & the Jicks, Bright Eyes and more...
Charlie Watts
is the most technically talented Stone, but that's not really the point is it?
The driving force behind
Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers has always been their drummer. Chap named Art Blakey.
Dave Clark
Certainly had some good business sense.
Martin Atkins
Drummed with PiL, then worked through the cream of the Industrial Cognoscenti (NIN, Ministry, Killing Joke), created a few supergroups of his own (Pigface, Murder Inc. The Damage Manual), set up Invisible Records and now lectures on the Music business and touring.
You could be wrong
You could be right
No.
It was Tony Williams who played on Rise, who incidentally was probably the best member of every band he played in, including the 1965-1968 Miles Davis Quintet.
Ah well
Joke still works.
Reading this thread
I was reminded of a joke I heard sometime in the mid-90's.
Q What's got four legs and works in McDonalds?
A The other two members of Nirvana.
Dave certainly has proven that wrong but if he hadn't met Cobain we would never have heard of him. Without the Nirvana impetus behind him he probably wouldn't have amounted to much.
I've always found the Foo Fighters to be workmanlike and nothing more. There is no real spark to it.
By the way it's very harsh to use Grohl's post Nirvana work against Cobain. It's like saying "What's John Lennon done since 1980? Nothing!"
The old ones are the best
What's Johann Sebastian Bach done since 1750?
Decompose.
How can you tell a drum riser is level ?
The drummer drools out of both sides of his mouth.
I nominate the great Stephen Morris
...out of Joy Division and New Order. He's definitely more proficient at his instrument than Hooky or Bernard. No glittering follow-up band, but in New Order he was always up for doing other things, like playing keyboards and writing songs. Including, and I may be wrong, a hand in writing their only number one (World in Motion).
Plus, he seems like a great guy, and an entertaining speaker.
pete thomas
perhaps?
More talented than...
... Elvis???
Pshaw!
Neil Peart
Next question?
Debatable...
...given that Geddy Lee plays bass, keyboards and pedals all at once.
Peart's lyrics however have been at times sublime.
Sadder still to watch it die than never to have known it.
Gerry Polci
Robert Wyatt
Robert Wyatt was the most creative and enjoyable musician in Soft Machine
Talking of progrock drummers, Chris Cutler (Henry Cow) and Charles Hayward (This Heat) have always been interesting in whatever they have done.
Bill Berry
...I'd hesitate to say most talented, but certainly an equal talent in a very talented group.
Good call
They've never been the same since he left. Wonder if, songwritingwise, he'd been Mr Tunes.
Possibly
He wrote their biggest hit, Everybody Hurts.
Just missing a small 's' there...
Compare to Talk About The Passion, Rockville, Wendell Gee, Good Advices, Driver 8, Fall On Me, Superman...
"They just got out and walked !"
retch.
crush/eyeliner, jump/shark
Have an up!
I despise that bloody video.
Chris Mars...
The Replacements will never, seemingly, ever reform because the drummer, Chris Mars, has a very successful career as a graphic artist now. See...
www.chrismarspublishing.com/home.htm -
Also, no disrespect, but he wasn't the most talented member of The Replacements... still a fine drummer, though
Whatever band
Jamie Oliver was in
Reni?
There are few better in England. He was certainly more talented than the bands singer.
Andy Gray and Richard Keys
often claim it was Honey Lantree.
Barry White
The Walrus was an all-rounder but in the '60s mainly a drummer.
Besides myriad other qualities, his records are impeccably "tight". "Groove" as "locked" as it gets.
Marvin Gaye started off as a session drummer.
He did pretty well.
Christian Vander
I'm no expert on the French band Magma, but wasn't the drummer (Christian Vander), like, the main bloke in the outfit?
I always felt sorry for Murph.
Poor old Murph out of Dinosaur Jr. He's a great drummer, but J. Mascis is not only one of the most gifted guitarists of the last twenty years, he's also better at the drums than almost everyone.
Reni the most talented drummer
Thanks Buxton, completely on board with this, hugely underrated, absolutely MADE the Roses with that unmatched loose funky sound, tragic that he didn't go on to do other stuff.
But Mani brought the funk........
No co-incidence that the Scream's material took a noticeable upturn when Mani was recruited?
Let's face it..
The Stone Roses were three virtuoso musicians saddled with a tone-deaf simian twatbracket of a microphone-botherer.
Twatbracket
Didn't they support Foghat in '72?
funny you should say that...
TMFTL
Loving this thread
But will someone please tell me what TMFTL stands for? I just can't work it out!
Three More From Them Later
a popular aside of John Peel's when playing session tracks.
Used on here after someone posts a phrase that sounds like a Fall-alike indie band that Peel would play.
Fraser should put this in the FAQ next to HJH
TMFTL
Three more from them later, I believe.
At last I know,
thanks for that. Looking forward to using the phrase sometime soon!
No.
Reni was a virtuoso. Mani certainly wasn't, although he improved. Squire absolutely certainly was no virtuoso, until about 1992 at which point he lost it.
To hammer Ian Brown for his limited vocal ability - shall we say - is to miss the point. All the best singers aren't technically great singers. They're the ones who bring something else. Personality, mainly.
My hypothesis is that The Stone Roses were a lot better before anyone started worrying about whether they were virtuosos or not. The minute Squire started worrying more about guitar playing than song writing was the minute it all went tits up.
The best bands usually aren't virtuosos. They don't have 'chops', they have personality.
Were any of The Beatles virtuosos? No, not even Macca.
Who had virtuosos? Cream? Yes? Led Zeppelin? King Crimson? It's all subjective, of course, but I can't stand any of that lot and perhaps the reason is because virtuosos like to show other people how good they are at playing their instruments. I prefer it when people in bands show us how good they are at playing songs, not instruments.
Good point, that.
I'm trying to think of a bandful of ace musicians who just let things trot along. Steely Dan? Or a band who do lots of showing-off but it still works. Rush?
Reni
I say it again - mmm, Reni - what a loss to music. Those fabulous understated dubby grooves.
Clem Burke.
He MADE Blondie.
Possibly my favourite drummer outside of Moon. Always thought Bonham was just a hard hitter who had the rock, but not the roll.
Mr P. Selway
The very definition of understatement. His beautiful playing on In Rainbows, for example, sends shivers down my spine. Can't wait for the newie.
Jim Capaldi
OK, they were all talented in Traffic, but he wrote the words to this one. Top drummer, subtle, jazzy and powerful all at the same time. Quite a character too by all accounts...
Nothing against Jim..
that's him shaking a tambourine. The drummer on this clip, however, is Barry Beckett. Did you realise?
Edit: actually, it's Roger Hawkins, also of the Muscle Shoals rhythm section.