Entertainment For Lively Minds
The definitive country
Posted by clivetemple on 23 June 2011 - 1:22pm.
Why do we have The Yemen, The Oman, The Sudan?
We don't have The France.
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Entertainment For Lively Minds
Why do we have The Yemen, The Oman, The Sudan?
We don't have The France.
same with the following... -
same with the following...
- the Ukraine
- the Lebanon
- the King's Road
The Arsenal
That one should really be a 'The' though
It's just Ukraine
The "The" bit was a put down by one of Czars to belittle this huge region of the former larger Russia. Well that was the story told by members of the Weddoes spin-off "The Ukrainians".
Also best pronunciation of Ukraine goes to Lawrence Olivier in "The World at War" you-Krain" with emphasis all over the shop see also "Sov-viat".
Vinyl update:
Just found my copy of "The Ukrainians" first 10 inch Peel lp/ep and there in the booklet is the fuller story.
Surely
The Woolwich
Now
The Barclays
Yawn
The Slough?
Doesn't have the same emphasis somehow...
The Slough
Of Despond?
Have you been to Slough?
Betjeman was right
Well, it's grim up north
But it's grimmer than that in Slough
Well...
My theory is it's some sort of colonial hangover, though I don't have any evidence for that. Incidentally, I've never heard anyone say "The Oman."
My mates nan
She's about 90 and lives in 'the' oman. I've only heard it from her. Yes it does all sound colonial.
A girl once said to me
The Oman's out...........
Mais c'est pas vrai!
Nous avons la France. Sans 'la'? C'est une affectation dérogatoire Anglais. Vive la France! À bas les commerçants.
Can't remember the French I took
Et en avant les grenouilles
Regions
may take a definite article, but not countries, so it shouldn't be The Ukraine. Sudan, for example, used to be a region before it became a country, hence why you often see it with the definite article.
The United States Of America
might disagree with you.
Is that an Apache helicopter I hear, trying to draw a bead on your gaff?
I can't hear nuffink
but then I'm awfully distracted by the funny red dot on my forehead.
How can you
see it?
A mirror/monitor reflection/webcam/colleague's alerting me?
It is possible there isn't really an assassin in a black helicopter outside.
Famous last words...
Bang!
I don't know who you just shot
but boy are you in trouble now...
He certainly is:
Wheaty, you're fired!
(Can't get the staff...)
The Wirral
Never Wirral.
Incorrect to say 'never'.
I lived on 'The Wirral' for 25 years and my parents still live there, and I never wrote the address with the definite article. It was always just 'Wirral'. However, when people ask me where I'm from I do say 'the Wirral'.
I think it's a contraction of 'The Wirral Peninsula'.
I was born there...
... parents still live there.
My Dad, admittedly increaingly truculent in his seventies, insists it's "Wirral" or "The Wirral Peninsula" but never "The Wirral". You don't, he would insist were he here, say "The Liverpool".
A-ha
Then I stand corrected! I had seen it written as Wirral (on Tranmere's shirts for example), but I've never heard it vocalised without the 'The'. And I used to work on Birkenheard market, so I'm not completely without credentials.
I agree.
You're right Baron, the definite article is technically incorrect, but that doesn't stop it becoming 'The Wirral' in common parlance. I, like you, was born there (in Clatterbridge, grew up in Bebington) and my parents still live there. When people ask where I'm from, I say 'The Wirral'.
Affectation
Wasn't saying that one lived "on Wirral" a short-lived affectation a few years ago, or did I dream that one up?
The Liverpool
Your da's quite right.
Its "That Liverpool"...
London streets
Tend to attract the definite article for some reason. We've already had The King's Road but (less glamourously) I would also say The Uxbridge Road, The Boston Manor Road, The Westway etc. Does this happen elsewhere?
Of course the one London street which always gets a definite article and shouldn't is (the) Strand.
There's one time when Strand has a definite article...
A point to anyone who can tell me when it is.
As in...
'let's all go down the...'?
On a UK Monopoly board?
.
Not the answer I was thinking of...
Is this the answer?
(Do The Strand/Roxy Music)
BINGGGG!
"One point to Seamus..."
When you are doing it
ie. do The Strand.
If it's the road to somewhere then I'd use the 'The'
The Rockfield Road, The Skenfrith Road, etc
A monmouth dweller then.....
par chance?
Somewhere near, yes :-)
Your Kings Road
has acquired an apostrophe
That's what they're like in
That London.
But according To Squire
Squire,the ones who weren't Secret Affair or the Purple Hearts.
France
Didn't they surrender their "The" at some point ?
la France
n'est pas?
The Germans do this as well
Grossbritannien, Frankreich and Spanien, but die Niederlande, die Schweiz, die Türkei and die USA.
In German, the only country I can think of where the gender
is masculine rather than neuter or feminine is... der Libanon. Can German speakers among the Massive think of any others?
Among the feminine countries, my favourite used to be die Tschechoslowakei, which for some reason you don't hear so often nowadays.
Without looking it up
Der Iran and Der Irak
Quite right..
and also der Jemen and der Sudan.
Argentina is an interesting one.
Scottish people always seem to refer to the place as The Argentine.
I *think* that region of South America was known as
The Argentine before Argentina existed. The country was named after the region, if that makes sense.
Are there a lot of jewellers north of the border?
I understood the name to have originated as that of the broad area of South America that was littered with silver mines. Most of these mines of course had Cornish men at the bottom, digging furiously.
Maybe once
But then maybe you're drawing attention to Andy Cameron's glorious single for Scotland's appearance at World Cup '78 ('We're on the march with Ally's Army, We're gaun tae the Argentine...'), a sporting event that ended so well for everyone north of the border ... I suspect we started calling the place Argentina as from 12 June that year...
I've always thought...
... that it reflects a kind of imperialist disparagement of places that aren't "proper countries".
If it's Argentina it's a country worthy of some respect. If it's The Argentine it's some kind of tinpot little South American territory that probably ought to be governed by Spain or some other European country.
Isnt that
The Falkland Islands?
OP pedantry alert
The 'definite' country rather than the 'definitive' country?
Or are you making a complete different emphasis (as in 'definitive version' of a country's name) and I just look even more like a tw*t for posting?
And where do we stand on 'The Congo'?
....shall we file that under 'The Sudan' and 'The Argentine' as regions, from the colonial era, which later became countries?
And what about The Hague? or The Isle of Man (which should really just be Man - like Lewis, Skye etc)?
It may be a regional affectation, but in NI people have a general tendency to put 'the' in front of thoroughfares which end in 'Road', but never those which end in things like Street, Crescent, Avenue, etc. Curious.
And in the Rep of Ireland, for some reason, people always refer to 'The Horslips' when, in fact, ALL their records only ever had 'Horslips' as the band name. This is a very definite (!) regional variation, peculiar to the south of Ireland in my experience.
Of course, there's a whole slew of bands which could/do exist with a degree of ambiguity about whether we need to affix a 'the'....
The Hague
Isn't its Dutch name Den Haag?
Yes
Where do we stand on "The Congo"?
All I know is that they drink Um Bongo there.
A lot of my experience of the south of Ireland
is peculiar. That's why we're going back there again in August! :)
Among the countries...
...which are often given a definite article but don't actually have one is our own (or at least, mine).
I looked in my passport. It says 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. No definite article.
UK Passports
Checking my passport the other day, I noticed that the title page now has the name of the UK in Scottish Gaelic and Welsh, as well as English. It used to be in the main languages of the EU (I checked this on a friend's passport), but not the two forms of Gaelic. Just an oddity - I don't mind either way, but I suspect some people did to get the change made.
Just be grateful that it doesn't include...
....a 'translation' in Ulster-Scots. This is a non-existent 'language' which is best described as 'a Ballymena accent' which the non-Republican element in Ulster politics have dug up in order to ya-boo those who have insisted that Northern Ireland government documents be translated into Irish. Now they've got to be translated into this joke language as well. And the NI taxpayer is footing the bill for both sides and their costly indulgences.
To give you an example, road signs saying 'Welcome To Ards' (in the Ards Borough Council area) also say 'Fair Fa Ye Ta Th' Airds' or somesuch tommy-rot. Infamously, government documents referring to 'children with learning difficulties' translate this into 'yon wee dafties'. I know: it's a shockingly disgraceful waste of money and insult to everyone's intelligence, isn't it? No doubt an Ulster-Scots translation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be something like 'yon bind-togethery Big Crown boyo's wild big Brits-lond wi' Norn Irn, hey'.
And ultimately we pay for this bollocks.
Only a matter of time
before we have it here too...
I seem to recall that some of our newly-elected MSPs gave their oaths in "Scots" or variants thereof.
You're probably right, Lando...
...how many regional dialects will end up enshrined in some form of government-funded comfort blanket of self-importance for regional assemblies and suchlike?
It's one thing for people to enjoy entering the world of Robert Burns on Burns night or Hogmanay or whatever, but quite another for the public purse to be throwing significant quantities of money at routine official translations of public administration documents into phoney, dead or irrelevant dialects.
We just don't have the money any more.
I demand bilingual road-signs in Cornish & English!
Gans gorhemynadow a'n gwella, Vulpes.
do you mind
there's ladies present
I just stuck that in Babelfish
and it came out as 'actually I'm quite fond of music by the Oasis - Vulpes'.
Alas...
It has already started:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm
Where we find that:
Mildly disappointing that they couldn't be arsed to make up words for email and fax.
PLEASE tell me that's a spoof...
I'm afraid not
Though if it was, it would have been a better use of our money.
I feel discriminated against.
I want The Hansard translated into Pompeyspeak.
SPEAKER: Fuckin'leavitahtyercant! Vis moosh 'ere, roit, ginnit awlat, 'e wonser word.
MEMBER FOR CARLSHALTON EAST: Wot my mate sed, roit, 'es bang on. But 'im over there.. You, mush, you knows I'm talkin' abart you. Dunt fuckin' look at me loike 'at you cant..
SPEAKER: FUCKIN'LEAVEITAHT!
There's a pub quiz question
There's a pub quiz question on this which asks for the countries that start with the definite article. The ones people miss are The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia and El Salvador.
Yugoslavia used to comprise...
... Macedonia and El Salvador? Blimey, no wonder they had problems.
I prefer Thee
Thee England sounds good but Thee Mighty Caesars, Thee Milkshakes, and Thee Headcoats sound a whole lot better.
I've never understood why bands choose to use Thee
rather than The. Is it some sort of genre in-joke?
phonetically
It's for emphasis: THE Milkshakes (pron "Thee").
Also: Mike Nesmith (amongst others?) used to sing "thee" instead of "the" on occasions, for the same reason.
Ah, ok... THE Milkshakes as opposed to any old Milkshakes?
The misspelling still grates though, although it never did Led Zeppelin any harm so I guess I'm just being picky :-)
Not
THEE Led Zeppelin, you mean...?
The Spanish love a definite article
but surely the winner is Los Angeles ?.
The
ssalonika.
Or, closer to home:
The tford
The bes?
the
ydon bois?
The Bronx..
I suggest this is another usually written without but said with the.
And nobody has yet mentioned...
...The Philippines
One of Mr Spector's
lesser known vocal groups there, but TMFTL.
Followed by a little known single from...
...prog-rock journeymen Micronesia... and a repeat session for cult singer-songwriter Tristan Da Cunha, featuring his cover of Yes' 'Keys To Ascension' with the controversial extra verse where it's explained that, in fact, they fell down a sofa on the annual supply ship from South Africa and now nobody can get in...