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The definitive country

clivetemple's picture

Why do we have The Yemen, The Oman, The Sudan?

We don't have The France.

0

same with the following... -

same with the following...

- the Ukraine
- the Lebanon
- the King's Road

0
lit doof | 23 June 2011 - 1:24pm

The Arsenal

0
kb | 23 June 2011 - 2:03pm
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 2:08pm

It's just Ukraine

The "The" bit was a put down by one of Czars to belittle this huge region of the former larger Russia. Well that was the story told by members of the Weddoes spin-off "The Ukrainians".
Also best pronunciation of Ukraine goes to Lawrence Olivier in "The World at War" you-Krain" with emphasis all over the shop see also "Sov-viat".

Vinyl update:
Just found my copy of "The Ukrainians" first 10 inch Peel lp/ep and there in the booklet is the fuller story.

2
Chris G | 23 June 2011 - 4:32pm

Surely

The Woolwich

1
Johnny Topaz | 25 June 2011 - 3:26pm

Now

The Barclays

0
Glenbervie | 25 June 2011 - 4:12pm

Yawn

0
Red Umpire | 25 June 2011 - 5:47pm

The Slough?

Doesn't have the same emphasis somehow...

0
badger_king | 23 June 2011 - 1:26pm

The Slough

Of Despond?

5
clivetemple | 23 June 2011 - 1:28pm

Have you been to Slough?

Betjeman was right

0
davebigpicture | 23 June 2011 - 2:09pm

Well, it's grim up north

But it's grimmer than that in Slough

0
spt | 23 June 2011 - 9:39pm

Well...

My theory is it's some sort of colonial hangover, though I don't have any evidence for that. Incidentally, I've never heard anyone say "The Oman."

1
Rosbif | 23 June 2011 - 1:29pm

My mates nan

She's about 90 and lives in 'the' oman. I've only heard it from her. Yes it does all sound colonial.

0
clivetemple | 23 June 2011 - 2:00pm

A girl once said to me

The Oman's out...........

0
happy harry | 23 June 2011 - 4:38pm

Mais c'est pas vrai!

Nous avons la France. Sans 'la'? C'est une affectation dérogatoire Anglais. Vive la France! À bas les commerçants.

3
Vulpes Vulpes | 23 June 2011 - 1:47pm

Can't remember the French I took

Et en avant les grenouilles

0
LastRoseofSummer | 23 June 2011 - 1:52pm

Regions

may take a definite article, but not countries, so it shouldn't be The Ukraine. Sudan, for example, used to be a region before it became a country, hence why you often see it with the definite article.

0
Fraser M | 23 June 2011 - 1:49pm

The United States Of America

might disagree with you.

Is that an Apache helicopter I hear, trying to draw a bead on your gaff?

0
Vulpes Vulpes | 23 June 2011 - 1:56pm

I can't hear nuffink

but then I'm awfully distracted by the funny red dot on my forehead.

0
Fraser M | 23 June 2011 - 2:00pm

How can you

see it?

1
MyAmericanMate | 23 June 2011 - 6:19pm

A mirror/monitor reflection/webcam/colleague's alerting me?

It is possible there isn't really an assassin in a black helicopter outside.

0
Fraser M | 23 June 2011 - 6:28pm

Famous last words...

0
nigelthebald | 23 June 2011 - 7:44pm

Bang!

0
Uncle Wheaty | 23 June 2011 - 8:22pm

I don't know who you just shot

but boy are you in trouble now...

0
Fraser M | 23 June 2011 - 8:47pm

He certainly is:

Wheaty, you're fired!

(Can't get the staff...)

0
nigelthebald | 23 June 2011 - 9:27pm

The Wirral

Never Wirral.

0
Spartacus Mills | 23 June 2011 - 1:58pm

Incorrect to say 'never'.

I lived on 'The Wirral' for 25 years and my parents still live there, and I never wrote the address with the definite article. It was always just 'Wirral'. However, when people ask me where I'm from I do say 'the Wirral'.

I think it's a contraction of 'The Wirral Peninsula'.

0
AgentGraves | 23 June 2011 - 2:13pm

I was born there...

... parents still live there.

My Dad, admittedly increaingly truculent in his seventies, insists it's "Wirral" or "The Wirral Peninsula" but never "The Wirral". You don't, he would insist were he here, say "The Liverpool".

0
Baron Counterpane | 23 June 2011 - 2:57pm

A-ha

Then I stand corrected! I had seen it written as Wirral (on Tranmere's shirts for example), but I've never heard it vocalised without the 'The'. And I used to work on Birkenheard market, so I'm not completely without credentials.

0
Spartacus Mills | 23 June 2011 - 4:58pm

I agree.

You're right Baron, the definite article is technically incorrect, but that doesn't stop it becoming 'The Wirral' in common parlance. I, like you, was born there (in Clatterbridge, grew up in Bebington) and my parents still live there. When people ask where I'm from, I say 'The Wirral'.

0
AgentGraves | 23 June 2011 - 5:53pm

Affectation

Wasn't saying that one lived "on Wirral" a short-lived affectation a few years ago, or did I dream that one up?

0
Red Umpire | 23 June 2011 - 8:59pm

The Liverpool

Your da's quite right.

Its "That Liverpool"...

1
Parchey Bridge | 23 June 2011 - 10:43pm

London streets

Tend to attract the definite article for some reason. We've already had The King's Road but (less glamourously) I would also say The Uxbridge Road, The Boston Manor Road, The Westway etc. Does this happen elsewhere?

Of course the one London street which always gets a definite article and shouldn't is (the) Strand.

0
stevelake | 23 June 2011 - 2:35pm

There's one time when Strand has a definite article...

A point to anyone who can tell me when it is.

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 2:48pm

As in...

'let's all go down the...'?

0
AgentGraves | 23 June 2011 - 2:53pm

On a UK Monopoly board?

.

0
Duncan Disorderly | 23 June 2011 - 3:34pm
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 3:37pm

Is this the answer?


(Do The Strand/Roxy Music)

1
Seamus | 23 June 2011 - 3:43pm

BINGGGG!

"One point to Seamus..."

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 3:45pm

When you are doing it

ie. do The Strand.

0
Steve Turner | 23 June 2011 - 4:34pm

If it's the road to somewhere then I'd use the 'The'

The Rockfield Road, The Skenfrith Road, etc

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 2:45pm

A monmouth dweller then.....

par chance?

0
herringbrother | 23 June 2011 - 2:55pm

Somewhere near, yes :-)

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 2:56pm

Your Kings Road

has acquired an apostrophe

0
Brookster | 23 June 2011 - 2:53pm

That's what they're like in

That London.

0
Melville | 23 June 2011 - 3:14pm

But according To Squire

Squire,the ones who weren't Secret Affair or the Purple Hearts.

0
Sour Crout | 23 June 2011 - 8:15pm

France

Didn't they surrender their "The" at some point ?

1
latenitetellyvision | 23 June 2011 - 2:43pm

la France

n'est pas?

0
badartdog | 25 June 2011 - 4:37pm

The Germans do this as well

Grossbritannien, Frankreich and Spanien, but die Niederlande, die Schweiz, die Türkei and die USA.

0
Brookster | 23 June 2011 - 2:52pm

In German, the only country I can think of where the gender

is masculine rather than neuter or feminine is... der Libanon. Can German speakers among the Massive think of any others?

Among the feminine countries, my favourite used to be die Tschechoslowakei, which for some reason you don't hear so often nowadays.

0
duco01 | 23 June 2011 - 8:01pm

Without looking it up

Der Iran and Der Irak

0
Brookster | 23 June 2011 - 8:25pm

Quite right..

and also der Jemen and der Sudan.

0
Declan | 24 June 2011 - 12:24am

Argentina is an interesting one.

Scottish people always seem to refer to the place as The Argentine.

0
Lenny Law | 23 June 2011 - 3:00pm

I *think* that region of South America was known as

The Argentine before Argentina existed. The country was named after the region, if that makes sense.

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 3:02pm

Are there a lot of jewellers north of the border?

I understood the name to have originated as that of the broad area of South America that was littered with silver mines. Most of these mines of course had Cornish men at the bottom, digging furiously.

1
Vulpes Vulpes | 23 June 2011 - 5:11pm

Maybe once

But then maybe you're drawing attention to Andy Cameron's glorious single for Scotland's appearance at World Cup '78 ('We're on the march with Ally's Army, We're gaun tae the Argentine...'), a sporting event that ended so well for everyone north of the border ... I suspect we started calling the place Argentina as from 12 June that year...

0
Glenbervie | 25 June 2011 - 4:22pm

I've always thought...

... that it reflects a kind of imperialist disparagement of places that aren't "proper countries".

If it's Argentina it's a country worthy of some respect. If it's The Argentine it's some kind of tinpot little South American territory that probably ought to be governed by Spain or some other European country.

0
Baron Counterpane | 23 June 2011 - 3:12pm

Isnt that

The Falkland Islands?

0
Steve Turner | 23 June 2011 - 4:36pm

OP pedantry alert

The 'definite' country rather than the 'definitive' country?

Or are you making a complete different emphasis (as in 'definitive version' of a country's name) and I just look even more like a tw*t for posting?

0
Ahh_Bisto | 23 June 2011 - 4:37pm

And where do we stand on 'The Congo'?

....shall we file that under 'The Sudan' and 'The Argentine' as regions, from the colonial era, which later became countries?

And what about The Hague? or The Isle of Man (which should really just be Man - like Lewis, Skye etc)?

It may be a regional affectation, but in NI people have a general tendency to put 'the' in front of thoroughfares which end in 'Road', but never those which end in things like Street, Crescent, Avenue, etc. Curious.

And in the Rep of Ireland, for some reason, people always refer to 'The Horslips' when, in fact, ALL their records only ever had 'Horslips' as the band name. This is a very definite (!) regional variation, peculiar to the south of Ireland in my experience.

Of course, there's a whole slew of bands which could/do exist with a degree of ambiguity about whether we need to affix a 'the'....

0
Colin H | 23 June 2011 - 4:56pm

The Hague

Isn't its Dutch name Den Haag?

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 5:06pm

Yes

0
Red Umpire | 23 June 2011 - 9:01pm

Where do we stand on "The Congo"?

All I know is that they drink Um Bongo there.

8
Lenny Law | 23 June 2011 - 5:13pm

A lot of my experience of the south of Ireland

is peculiar. That's why we're going back there again in August! :)

0
Vulpes Vulpes | 23 June 2011 - 5:14pm

Among the countries...

...which are often given a definite article but don't actually have one is our own (or at least, mine).

I looked in my passport. It says 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. No definite article.

0
Inky Fingers | 23 June 2011 - 5:49pm

UK Passports

Checking my passport the other day, I noticed that the title page now has the name of the UK in Scottish Gaelic and Welsh, as well as English. It used to be in the main languages of the EU (I checked this on a friend's passport), but not the two forms of Gaelic. Just an oddity - I don't mind either way, but I suspect some people did to get the change made.

0
Melville | 23 June 2011 - 8:23pm

Just be grateful that it doesn't include...

....a 'translation' in Ulster-Scots. This is a non-existent 'language' which is best described as 'a Ballymena accent' which the non-Republican element in Ulster politics have dug up in order to ya-boo those who have insisted that Northern Ireland government documents be translated into Irish. Now they've got to be translated into this joke language as well. And the NI taxpayer is footing the bill for both sides and their costly indulgences.

To give you an example, road signs saying 'Welcome To Ards' (in the Ards Borough Council area) also say 'Fair Fa Ye Ta Th' Airds' or somesuch tommy-rot. Infamously, government documents referring to 'children with learning difficulties' translate this into 'yon wee dafties'. I know: it's a shockingly disgraceful waste of money and insult to everyone's intelligence, isn't it? No doubt an Ulster-Scots translation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be something like 'yon bind-togethery Big Crown boyo's wild big Brits-lond wi' Norn Irn, hey'.

And ultimately we pay for this bollocks.

0
Colin H | 23 June 2011 - 10:06pm

Only a matter of time

before we have it here too...

I seem to recall that some of our newly-elected MSPs gave their oaths in "Scots" or variants thereof.

0
Lando Cakes | 23 June 2011 - 10:35pm

You're probably right, Lando...

...how many regional dialects will end up enshrined in some form of government-funded comfort blanket of self-importance for regional assemblies and suchlike?

It's one thing for people to enjoy entering the world of Robert Burns on Burns night or Hogmanay or whatever, but quite another for the public purse to be throwing significant quantities of money at routine official translations of public administration documents into phoney, dead or irrelevant dialects.

We just don't have the money any more.

0
Colin H | 23 June 2011 - 11:49pm

I demand bilingual road-signs in Cornish & English!

Gans gorhemynadow a'n gwella, Vulpes.

0
Vulpes Vulpes | 24 June 2011 - 4:35pm

do you mind

there's ladies present

0
Chris G | 24 June 2011 - 5:28pm

I just stuck that in Babelfish

and it came out as 'actually I'm quite fond of music by the Oasis - Vulpes'.

0
badartdog | 25 June 2011 - 4:39pm

Alas...

It has already started:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm

Where we find that:

The Scottish Pairlament is here for tae represent aw Scotlan’s folk.

We want tae mak siccar that as mony folk as possible can finn oot aboot the Scottish Pairlament. Information anent whit we can dae tae help ye engaige wi the Pairlament gin ye arenae fluent in English can be haen at Langage assistance providit by the Scottish Pairlament (22.2KB pdf).

This pairt o the wabsite hauds information anent the Scottish Pairlament that we hae producit in Scots. Uise the link aneath tae find oot mair.

Garrin the Scottish Pairlament Wark for You (1.59MB pdf)

Contactin the Scottish Pairlament

Gin ye hae a quaistion anent the Scottish Pairlament or the Memmers o the Scottish Pairlament (MSPs), ye can contact the Public Speirins Service in ony leid by post, email or fax.

Mildly disappointing that they couldn't be arsed to make up words for email and fax.

0
Lando Cakes | 24 June 2011 - 8:32pm
stimpy | 24 June 2011 - 9:58pm

I'm afraid not

Though if it was, it would have been a better use of our money.

0
Lando Cakes | 24 June 2011 - 10:35pm

I feel discriminated against.

I want The Hansard translated into Pompeyspeak.

SPEAKER: Fuckin'leavitahtyercant! Vis moosh 'ere, roit, ginnit awlat, 'e wonser word.

MEMBER FOR CARLSHALTON EAST: Wot my mate sed, roit, 'es bang on. But 'im over there.. You, mush, you knows I'm talkin' abart you. Dunt fuckin' look at me loike 'at you cant..

SPEAKER: FUCKIN'LEAVEITAHT!

4
Lenny Law | 24 June 2011 - 11:38pm

There's a pub quiz question

There's a pub quiz question on this which asks for the countries that start with the definite article. The ones people miss are The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia and El Salvador.

0
JNLister | 23 June 2011 - 5:54pm

Yugoslavia used to comprise...

... Macedonia and El Salvador? Blimey, no wonder they had problems.

3
Billybob Dylan | 23 June 2011 - 6:38pm

I prefer Thee

Thee England sounds good but Thee Mighty Caesars, Thee Milkshakes, and Thee Headcoats sound a whole lot better.

0
slatts | 23 June 2011 - 6:04pm

I've never understood why bands choose to use Thee

rather than The. Is it some sort of genre in-joke?

0
stimpy | 23 June 2011 - 6:07pm

phonetically

It's for emphasis: THE Milkshakes (pron "Thee").

Also: Mike Nesmith (amongst others?) used to sing "thee" instead of "the" on occasions, for the same reason.

0
man.of.soup | 24 June 2011 - 12:30pm

Ah, ok... THE Milkshakes as opposed to any old Milkshakes?

The misspelling still grates though, although it never did Led Zeppelin any harm so I guess I'm just being picky :-)

0
stimpy | 24 June 2011 - 12:38pm

Not

THEE Led Zeppelin, you mean...?

0
man.of.soup | 27 June 2011 - 12:39pm

The Spanish love a definite article

but surely the winner is Los Angeles ?.

0
Sour Crout | 23 June 2011 - 8:17pm

The

ssalonika.

8
Helena Handcart | 23 June 2011 - 9:45pm

Or, closer to home:

The tford

1
man.of.soup | 24 June 2011 - 12:31pm

The bes?

1
Red Umpire | 24 June 2011 - 1:31pm

the

ydon bois?

1
Chris G | 24 June 2011 - 5:29pm

The Bronx..

I suggest this is another usually written without but said with the.

0
Declan | 24 June 2011 - 12:35am

And nobody has yet mentioned...

...The Philippines

0
Colin H | 24 June 2011 - 1:22pm

One of Mr Spector's

lesser known vocal groups there, but TMFTL.

1
Vulpes Vulpes | 24 June 2011 - 4:38pm

Followed by a little known single from...

...prog-rock journeymen Micronesia... and a repeat session for cult singer-songwriter Tristan Da Cunha, featuring his cover of Yes' 'Keys To Ascension' with the controversial extra verse where it's explained that, in fact, they fell down a sofa on the annual supply ship from South Africa and now nobody can get in...

0
Colin H | 24 June 2011 - 4:56pm
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