Entertainment For Lively Minds
The Atlantic League
Scottish members of the Massive, particularly those interested in football, will know that the hot topic of the moment is the possibility of a (North) Atlantic League being created.
For those not aware, it would involve, initially, Rangers and Celtic from Scotland, along with similar ‘big fish in small ponds’, like Ajax, PSV, Benfica, Porto etc. The idea is that this league would then be able to compete on something of a level playing field with the currently unassailable English, Spanish, Italian, French and German leagues.
It was first mooted some years ago, and is now being resurrected. Personally, I feel its time has now come, as the gap between the major leagues (particularly England and Spain) and the rest has grown to such an extent that players are preferring the Coca-Cola Championship to the SPL, due to the wages on offer provided by the Sky honeypot. I can definitely see it being a major attraction for TV, particularly a new kid on the block like ESPN.
As a Rangers fan I support the club’s stance of preferring this option to the other possibility being discussed at the moment – namely the Old Firm joining the mooted English Premier League 2. Celtic, however, clearly prefer the English option. I would prefer to join a ‘clean slate’ league. I would not be in favour of it being a closed shop – I (predictably) agree with Walter Smith when he says that there should be a play-off between the winner of the domestic league and their equivalents in the Atlantic League. This would invigorate the domestic championships.
As far as Scotland is concerned, certainly, under the current circumstances it is nigh-on impossible to imagine Aberdeen or Hearts, say, finishing ahead of both of the Old Firm (but in saying that, it also requires a leap of faith to picture Arsene Wenger or Mark Hughes holding aloft the Premier League trophy come May, despite the latter’s humungous investment).
If nothing else, it’s an intriguing idea. Thoughts?
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How would.......
European qualification be decided upon from this League. Surely the real cash is still in the Champions League. Would Scotland, Portugal, Holland, Belgium and say, Denmark, give up their places in the CL?
Intriguing, yes
but since you're a Rangers fan, how would you feel about having to nip over to Eindhoven or Lisbon for an away game rather than Edinburgh or Aberdeen?
Also, historically PSV and Ajax may be the Dutch "big fish", but last year the Eredivisie was won by AZ Alkmaar with Steve McLaren's(!) FC Twente in second.
I'd say probably beneficial for the clubs, the TV networks and the money men but, like most footballing initiatives, the fans are left out of consideration.
I take your point about 'big fish'
which is why, as I say, I would not support it being a closed shop.
Not very keen
on having tedious Scottish religious sectarianism transferred to the Premiership so probably so good if they join some other league. Will probably kill off the rest of Scottish football though.
As opposed to the good old banter
like simulating gas chambers, celebrating tragedies like Munich and Hillsborough or singing about lynching Sol Campbell?
Yes, best we don't 'pollute' such a pure environment.
yeah so let's top it up
with a whole country dividing religious intolerance as well, one that divides people who don't even support the "Middling 2". The regular sectarianism seen in Scotland is very rare at the live games I go to. It's a long time since I heard for instance the racial abuse of black players. I do think Scottish football fans need to look hard at this pathetic tradition.
Over-stated
I've still seen nothing in the Old Firm rivalry to compare with the Neo-Nazi phenomena you see across Europe, but you wouldn't think so, to read the way it's covered in Scotland.
It must be a comfort to the victim of violence following a West Ham v Millwall game, for example, to think 'at least there was no sectarian intent behind my severe beating'.
Do you know what I'm
having a rest from this for today can't bear the way the Nazi's get brought up online at the drop at the hat. hate the way they have become a tired debating point almost like an exclamation point at the end of sentence.
I wish Scottish football well if you are all happy with they way it it is so be it. It is only a game after all.
Ok
let's leave the N-word out of it.
How about a pig's head being thrown at Luis Figo when he took a corner after moving from Barca to Real. All part of the 'colourful, passionate' Iberian atmosphere eh? Whereas the Old Firm rivalry is seen as dark and sinister (by some).
At Ibrox or Parkhead we would never throw a pig's head. Sausage roll or a pie, maybe ;-)
Would the Old Firm
have been happy had Aberdeen and Dundee United decided to take this option in the 1980s when they were streets ahead of Celtic and Rangers, leaving them to fester in some rump of a Scottish league?
The Old Firm Unites
So with the exception of about three years, perhaps, when exactly were Aberdeen and Dundee United 'streets ahead' of Celtic and Rangers?
The unpalatable truth in the modern world of televised sport and the quest for audience(s) is that few outside of their own towns are really interested in the rest of the SPL.
Rightly or wrongly, it is Celtic and Rangers who have a large global following and who have average home attendances that put almost every EPL club to shame. The game has been artificially rigged by Sky in England who fire disproportionate amounts of money into the pockets of clubs of lesser stature. Celtic and Rangers aren't killing the SPL, Sky, bad administration and ill-advised TV deals are.
And BTW, on that tiresome sectarian bollix that always gets trotted out - get to Parkhead on match day and see how many sectarian chants there are. Few, if any, for years.
I was merely asking
how the Old Firm would have felt had Aberdeen and Dundee United decided they weren't worth bothering with.
A lot of questions
There is clearly much to be discussed about practicalities. I just think the current 'model', not just in Scotland but elsewhere, has changed utterly over the last 10-15 years.
To me, I feel a drastic change is inevitable, whether it is wholly desirable or not.
I have to admit that if I still lived in Scotland and travelled to away games I may have a different view. As it is, I am pretty much an armchair fan these days, so for me the issue of travelling doesn't arise.
I'd have no problem
with Rangers and Celtic joining the Premiership, and indeed a mechanism which allowed other British clubs the opportunity to compete in this league.
A different point of view
As a fan of Swansea City, a Welsh Club playing in the English Pyramid system I can understand Celtic and Rangers wish to possibly leave the Scottish leagues. Since the league of Wales was created in 1992, and at various intervals since members of the Welsh FA and media have clamoured for the English league based teams to revert to the Welsh structure (there are six teams who still play in English leagues - Cardiff, Colwyn Bay, Merthyr Tydfil, Newport County, Swansea City and Wrexham). Every teams wish should be to play at the highest proffesional level they can and I therefore understand the reasons for the Scottish teams wanting out. Swansea could play in the Welsh League, win it, and appear in the Champions League every year. But I would never leave the quality of the English structure for that carrot being dangled. The one question that Rangers and Celtic fans would have to answer though is whether or not they would like to end up 5th or 8th in a different league because there is absolutely no guarantee they would win such a league. I wonder how soon fans would get disillusioned in not winning trophies on a yearly basis.
I'd like to know...
What would happen with Rangers or Celtic were one of them to be relegated from the Premier Leaque? Would fans be happy to spend the year traveling to Plymouth, Swansea etc in a season that didn't include an old firm game?
Not an issue
Fraser, both clubs are liable to take 15,000 on most away trips (friendlies and European stats back this up), more for bigger games. Trips to the deepest West Country would not be an issue such is the centrality of both clubs to the lives and identities of their fans. And at the risk of contradicting my last post on this thread, a year away from poisonous Old Firm derbies might not be a bad thing all things considered. Just as long as it was the 'Gers that were relegated.
Ha!
:-)
Football clubs seem intend on raising the drawbridge
I'm not sure creating what would inevitably be seen as a 2nd tier to the big fish would do to help these clubs, unless the bigger leagues agree to promotion / relegation between leagues and I can't see that happening.
Would Celtic and Rangers really thrive in the Premier League? You can't see them challenging the big 5..
Why?
Given the same SKY funding as EPL clubs, combined with much larger matchday receipts than every other club bar Man U and Arsenal, why would Celtic not be able to compete with the Big 5? It's only financial clout that is getting the best players to the EPL. (or at least in the very recent past, the weakness of the pound and tax issues aren't helping now).
Exactly.
People always say 'the Old Firm would struggle in the Premier League', but we're not talking about the present make-up of the sides. We're talking about the overall size of the clubs. This can be objectively measured in terms of global fanbase, size and quality* of stadia and TV audiences.
The question is whether Rangers and Celtic can be viewed in the same terms as Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Ajax, Benfica etc. Unquestionably they can. Fact!
*Note this crucial point, Paddy!
The Sky money is crucial
but its the Champions League money that makes the difference. The same top 4 have qualified for the CL in the last 4 years (I've not checked this fact mind, so it may be more). It does two things.
Firstly, it gives them a big lump of money (£20m if they have a good run?). Secondly, it stops someone else getting hold of the money thus strengthening their hold on the top spot.
There is no doubt that Celtic and Rangers have the size and fanbase to compete in the Prem if they hit the ground running. Everton and Aston Villa have similar fanbases and seem to nearly compete. Mind you, so do Newcastle and Leeds but they tried a litle too hard (and perhaps felt that their size and fanbase gave them an invincibility).
I would welcome them into the English League but I see no way that any club likely to not get into the Prem because Celtic or Rangers were coming in instead would see it as a thing worth voting for. And I don't see either team accepting starting out at the bottom of the pyramid like AFC Wimbledon have as a viable option.
Me neither
One thing I would just point out though about respective fanbases. Everton, Villa, Newcastle and Leeds are some of the biggest clubs in the country, no doubt. But what sets the Old Firm apart is the global aspect of the Scots / Irish 'diaspora'. I have to admit that Celtic have exploited this far more effectively than we have in recent years, but they have probably gone as far as possible under the current arrangements.
Moving to a bigger stage, thereby allowing theoretically unlimited exploitation of their 'brands' is, understandably, seen as the holy grail for both clubs.
I think the sad truth is
that a successful club will build heritage quite quickly and establish a global fanbase equally quickly. History, and I mean real history, doesn't count for much in the modern game. I think Chelsea are an example of that and that we are likely to see Man City do the same.
Modern fans are attracted to big money transfers. Unless Celtic or Rangers get the level of investment of the big 5, I can only see them being as big as Villa or Everton. And if they try too hard, they could easily become a Newcastle or Leeds.
Rangers
came perilously close to the Leeds situation. When we had Dick Advocaat as manager and a team including the likes of Gio van Bronkhorst, Artur Numan and Ronald de Boer, we, or at least our mercurial now ex chairman (though still owner) David Murray bet the farm on European achievement. Some fantastic football was played during that period, although Walter Smith has come closest in the modern era to Euro success, being one game away from the CL final in 1993 and getting to the UEFA final the season before last, on a comparative shoestring. My admiration for the man knows no bounds, though a sizeable minority of, in my opinion, spoiled glory-hunters don't agree.
The club, while thankfully not sinking to the depths that Leeds has, is now, shall we say, closely monitored by the bank, while our considerable debt is paid off.
Noted Dougie. Let's not let
Noted Dougie. Let's not let the respective brotherhoods see us agreeing too much - it'll break the tired myth of 'intractable' sectarianism so beloved this side of Hadrian's Wall.
You have to laugh.....
The SPL standards just now are diabolical and I should know since I have a season ticket at Aberdeen.....but as bad as my team are just now both Celtic and Rangers are awful as well and it just makes me laugh that they think moving to a different league will make them better.
They take the lions share of any tv money, they have by far the biggest domestic attendances yet they both have to shop in the bargain basement and this is everybody's fault in scottish football for holding them back. Anytime a young scottish footballer shows talent they get snapped up by the old firm and invariably end up warming the bench and no getting regular games.....and it is the fault of the other teams for lowering standards and not being competitive enough for the gruesome twosome.
Outwith their own fans they are loathed in equal measure across Scotland and if you ask the residents of Manchester what it is like having one of them visit your city they may agree.
The sooner they find somewhere else to have them the better. Scottish football would benefit not die.
PS - Aberdeen are crap just now but for a large part of the eighties we were the team to beat as we were managed by Alex Ferguson who led us to European success twice with the european cup winners cup followed by the european super cup. The last scottish club to win a european trophy. Them days are long gone however and all that matters is 3 points at home against hearts tomorrow.
with respect
I have to say that Aberdeen's (and to a lesser extent Dundee United's) success at the time was not as simple as you imply.
All credit to the club - they had a very forward thinking board, who had the foresight to employ the once-in-a-generation force of nature that is Alex Ferguson (not forgetting the much-lampooned Ally McLeod, who laid much of the groundwork). The creation of the modern and impressive (at the time) Pittodrie was also an achievement. I think the club was surfing the wave of optimism that existed in the North East at the time with the North Sea oil boom.
However, a huge factor was the massive under-performing of the Old Firm at the time. When Graeme Souness was brought into Ibrox, everything changed. Rangers went from having crowds of less than 10,000 (hard to believe now) to 45,000 (then 50,000 following the stadium expansion) every other week.
I see many parallels with the Notts Forest situation. Once the traditional giants of English football began exploiting their potential to the full, the game was up.
You question whether the Old Firm moving would 'make them better', but surely it's just a matter of economics. No disrespect to the likes of Stoke, Wigan or Blackburn, but clubs such as these are really of interest only to people in those immediate areas, whereas Rangers and Celtic command global interest. The only reason clubs such as these can attract better players than the Old Firm is down to the league they play in and the vastly different amount of TV money sloshing around.
That's why I think a significant change is inevitable. Michel Platini and other influential figures in Uefa seem to be in favour of levelling the playing field to some extent in the form of salary caps etc, so I can't see the present massively unequal situation persisting indefinitely.
I've edited a stupid, ill thought out post
#
head of nail, meet hammer
Eloquently put sir. I'm an (clears throat and mutters) Airdrie fan and you summed up my feelings exactly.
Oh and Manchester getting trashed wasn't Rangers' supporters only disgraceful episode that year: they are reviled here in Barcelona after shitting, pissing and vomiting all over the city centre a few months earlier before a Champ League group game.
my above post
refers to lemagician's comment
I'll bet they talk of little else
in the tapas bars of La Ramblas...
Of course, TheGreatestFansInTheWorld can hold their liquor heroically, and therefore have never been caught short with woefully inadequate toilet facilities, nor have they (being famous for drinking in moderation) ever puked Guinness over any pavements on any of their jolly craic expeditions around Europe ('everybody pyoor luvs us, by ra way').
No doubt Seville will be mentioned. But Seville was one thing - 70-80,000 fans, no crucial incident kicking things off (big screen failure), no issues with policing, while Manchester was another - 150-200,000 fans with woeful facilities.
'Reviled' in the Barcelona branch of Jinty McGinty's no doubt. Forgotten by every other resident more like.
EDIT Good job this post didn't come across as bitter in any way ;-)
Re. Greatest Fans in the World can hold liquor.
That's balls. I've seen Leeds fans out on the drink and they are just the same as everyone else.
Would English non-Premier League teams stand for it though?
Would they not be perfectly entitled to mount a legal challenge if the Premier League decided to parachute Rangers and Celtic into the top tier of English football?
At present, any team that wants to play in the Football League has to earn the right via winning promotion through the pyramid non-league system, and ultimately they need to work their way up through League Two, League One and the Championship. Surely all those teams trying to earn their place the legitimate way would be just a *little* bit peeved to see two teams trample all over them and gain fast-track entry? Would it not open a Pandora's Box of, er, legal worms?
On the other hand, if Rangers and Celtic want to resign their position in the SPL, apply for non-league status in England and then work their way up through the ranks from there, fair enough. Let's see them bring their 15,000 travelling fans to, well, whatever part of the pyramid they told to play in. It's a complicated system, as this guide shows: http://www.thepyramid.info/asp/pyramid3.asp
Maybe this sort of potential problem is part ofthe reason why the Old Firm seem to have abandoned - at least temporarily - their desire for Premier League football and are looking at the Atlantic League option instead.
The objections you raise
are precisely why Rangers' manager Walter Smith (in interviews yesterday) believes this move will not happen, and is concentrating instead on the Atlantic League idea.
Celtic (or at least their CEO Peter Lawell), though, have consistently raised the parachuting into England idea over the last few years.
To be fair though, the specific proposal for an EPL2 with the Old Firm was floated recently by Bolton chairman Phil Gartside, interestingly enough.
For my part, I totally agree with you. I don't think the 'parachuting' proposal is at all fair. Then again - when these sums of money are involved, fairness has little to do with it.
Gartside is the perfect example
of the total self interest that bedevils the game, not just in England but everywhere.
He can see that eventually, Bolton will take the drop from the Premiership and, given the alleged scale of their debt which runs into several tens of millions supposedly, he can see that such relegation would leave them terminally stuffed.
So, after a few years of not giving a monkeys about the Championship and the financial plight of the clubs down there when Allardyce was piloting them into the upper-middle reaches of the Prem, suddenly he wants the cake dividing up more fairly so he can continue to ward off oblivion.
Quite what Rangers and Celtic have to do with it though, I'm not sure. From a purely English point of view, if we were just going to let anybody in, I'd much rather Barcelona and Juventus joined.
Ultimately though, this is window dressing, surely? IMO, what will happen in the next decade is the big TV money from across Europe wil join together and pick off the top 16 or 18 clubs of the continent and setting up a Kerry Packer style league circus for the cameras, with the likes of Real Madrid, Manchester United, Milan etc all leaving their leagues behind to play in a franchise competition. Then the question won't just be "What about Rangers and Celtic?" It'll be a Liverpool or an Arsenal squealing about being left out.
Probably true
although the present Platini-led UEFA leadership seems to be of quite a re-distributive bent (relatively speaking), so who knows.
Platini seems to me to be
the only hope that football has left as a sport rather than something to be added to the TV schedules. I think his instincts are right, but sadly I think it's too late, the Champions League already opened Pandora's box.
Paradoxically, Platini's attempts to redistribute, and to retur fotball to the days of realcompetition are the very things that will hasten the split. Just as millionaires flee the country at the prospect of having to pay a fair share when the top rate of tax goes up, once Platini starts making life uncomfortable for Chelsea, Inter and Real, they'll be away.
As a supporter of a Premier
league team with a Scottish manager who has just been promised a £40 million kitty for the january transfer window I pray to God he doesnt go north of the border to spend it. I love Scotland, I love the Scottish people, my wife was born there but frankly Scottish football is awful. I am not sure either Celtic or Rangers would even finish in the top 10 in the Premier League - yes they can raise their game for the big matches but so can every other team in the Premier. You need more than that. I woul however enjoy the away games!!
Boss Moyes opens the debate again
Moyes backs Prem2 with Celts and Gers in it. Is there a momentum building in this story? Not sure either would be any good on current evidence, Dougie. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ijPezMD6DeFXjBtd5...
Me neither!
I now tend to favour the status quo. Rangers recent well-publicised financial woes are troubling, but their debt (£25-30M) is small beer indeed when you consider the combined debt of the Barclays Premier League is £3.1bn.
In the current wider financial situation, that simply cannot be sustainable. I think the Old Firm should maybe bide their time as a levelling is likely to occur in the not too distant future.