See 17 comments into www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/things-say-agitate-average-word-reader

understood why swearing makes people feel uncomfortable but it appears that it does, as this was also mentioned on another thread, so I will solemnly pledge to remember to wind it in from now on.

I have to agree with you. I find it hilarious sometimes - maybe its only when its being silly or exagerrated that its funny though. There are a couple of words I find depressing in everyday conversation and send me into a sort of gloom when I see them in print - one of them sparked a row on here yesterday - its noticeable that Private Eye seems to be totally gloves off nowadays.

Maybe everyones just so ANGRY at the moment (well I am, more than I realise perhaps)

And yes I am a thundering hypocrite.

There's no doubt that swearing makes some people uncomfortable, and it's one of the reasons why the very first thing we request in the posting guidelines is that you refrain from doing so. I swear at work everyday, but there are other places where I don't, and all we're asking is that this is one of those places where you don't. I don't expect everyone to agree that it's the correct approach, but we'd like it if the request was respected all the same.

but I like to think I use swear words judiciously - when I'm really hacked off with something and only the "f" or "c" word will do. Swearing just for the hell of it is dull and rather depressing to read.

Like most things in this here life, it's OK in moderation as far as I'm concerned.

I found it interesting that recently 660 viewers of Strictly Come Dancing complained to the BBC when Len Goodman called one of his colleagues a 'silly old sod' yet in the printed media, online, especially the Guardian and the Times I've noticed, offensive swear-words are being printed daily that are no longer being marked with asterix's. In a recent Guardian interview with the singer of Snow Patrol he used the C-word and it was printed without being marked. People will say times are changing, everyone swears, we're all libertarians etc but the lowering of standards is depressing. People seem to have mistaken this for I'll do what I want and damn the consequences.

I do use the occasional swear when posting from time to time, though I try to stick to the Frank Zappa philosophy, which I interpret as: swear words are words like any other, and the more words you know the better.

That said, words have meanings and underlying connotations and the art of any reasonable attempt to write is to use the correct words in the correct context, making allowances for some of the "undocumented" nuances they might carry, including whether the word in question is even thought of as swearing (see "bollocks"). So if I think a post calls for me to drop an f-bomb or even a c-bomb then I'll do it, but I try hard not to be gratuitous.

I also realise that such judgement calls may sit at varying points on some kind of notional swearing offence spectrum for everyone else and that I may not agree with other people's interpretation of that process (hence the comments made by people in that thread ^ ).

I don't believe in proscription but think that sometimes we should all let our mouse pointers hover for a touch longer over the "Post Comment" button before hitting it.

Are you my grandma?

I know what you mean though. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Gratuitous swearing can jar.

to a particular topic or theme on the Blog that I think may interest them. Call me old fashioned (and I'm far from a Victorian Dad), but I'd hate to think I'd pointed them in the direction of a student swearing contest. That's one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable with it.

Quite apart from that, it's just plain ugly to see swearing which often seems to be there for no real reason at all.

At the risk of appearing sexist, I'd like to ask the female bloggers what they think of it.

is when it's used to ridicule, belittle or just insult another poster. I might not always agree with someone, or I might disagree with that person about a specific issue, but that doesn't make him or her a four letter word. Sometimes it's better, as illuminatus points out above, to pause for a moment before hitting the "post" button.

I've done it myself, but I try to avoid. A well placed f**k can be amusing, and indeed turns up on the Podcast from time, recently when Mark Ellen was describing the French chef's reaction to Jimmy Savile ("his face was a f**king picture Dave!")...

However I agree its best avoided here, it can sort of set the wrong tone especially in the printed page it can just seen unnecessarily crude and aggressive , plenty of other words in the English Language. The FAQ is pretty clear, and if it spares cringes and blushes and makes the place more welcoming and inclusive that's got to be a good thing. I for one shall mind my language from now on. (I am partial to the odd "f**kwit" though)

I try not to. I know the words, I hear them all the time but see them as linguistic litter despoiling the language landscape. There are plenty of other words available, we have a huge lexicon. I generally find them disrespectful and ugly. To me it's not 'Strong Language' it's 'Uncouth Language'. I may well be poughing a lone furrow but I don't want my kids adopting them when there are so many more graceful words to use.

I may well be a prude.

I really don't like excessive swearing on the site, it makes me wince as I read it, much as it does when someone swears excessively in conversation.

Sure, I swear occasionally on the site - as I do in real life - but I find it's more powerful when used sparingly, rather than just randomly punctuating sentences.

... because, as I said, I thought casual, unnecessary swearing seemed to be becoming more and more commonplace here. I also said I hoped we were better than that.

I started reading The Word with issue 1, and I've dropped in and out of the Word blogging community over the years, sometimes posting and sometimes lurking. I keep coming back to both because I enjoy the wit, wisdom and good-natured communication they each demonstrate. The majority of things I read here are thought-provoking, informative and entertaining. But I find I'm coming back here less and less. Having thought about it, that's because casual swearing isn't something I want as part of my day. Seeing the words written down has far more of an effect on me than hearing them spoken, but I realise everyone doesn't feel the same way.

Don't misunderstand me. I swear. Sometimes, it's the most direct way to make a point. But, usually, it's just the easy way. It's never the only way. Swearing is a blunt instrument, a bomb, when maybe a rapier would have more effect.

I don't use the C word, because I think it's just as ugly and demeaning as the N word, and so it's particularly wince-inducing for me when I see it used here. Though I know other opinions are available.

Swear when you're posting, or don't swear. That's up to you. Just understand that some of us out here don't necessarily want to read it.

I was going to start a thread on this same topic (and hadn't seen the other thread). I feel it has increased, and while I wouldn't say I'm offended it certainly jars and feels like the 'rest' of the net is bleeding into here.

There's nothing wrong with the occasional well-placed expletive, but when it's every few posts it becomes a bit monotonous. People are, on the whole, quite eloquent here; swearing doesn't necessarily make them less eloquent, but I sometimes feel they could have been funnier/more interesting without it. I've noticed this on some sitcoms recently as well - perfectly funny programmes that would have once been classic pre watershed material, dosed with earthy language to - I presume - attract a more adult audience.

Problem is, if you comment on it you sound like someone's dad. Which I suppose I do now.

...but I just don't like swearing at all. I do myself, occasionally, in extremis, and hate myself for it when I do.

I will have to disagree with Stephen Fry in this regard (and many others for that matter): I don't see well-placed swearwords as...well, well-placed. Guess I became overaware of it as a young 'un. Lots of friends and neighbours swore and it just made me wince every time.

Father Ted's version of swearing always struck me as being far funnier than the real thing.

(weighs up synonyms for "prude", "modern Mary Whitehouse", etc, in anticipation)

Can I recommend Peter Silverton's 'Filthy English' as a stocking-filler for any enthusiasts of language? I ordered copies for myself and some friends a couple of Christmases ago after hearing him on a Word podcast a couple of years ago, and it's excellent.

It covers issues such why the effect of words changes with time, and why the French word 'con' was generally translated as something with along the lines of 'oaf' in the UK media when it was used by Sarkozy, even though it is a direct translation of what we are referring to as 'the c word' on this thread.

As for my thoughts on the main topic, I find that artful swearing can be elegant and stylish. I like to think that most people on this board write well enough to know when to swear effectively and use it to good effect. Like others I have noticed a recent trend to more swearing to which I have contributed myself on occasion, and which is probably regrettable.

What I would hate if for asterisked expletives to start appearing, or for people to start using euphemisms with exclamation points after them to emphasise how 'naughty' they were being. I doubt that would happen here, but I also doubt that swearing can be cut out completely, even if that would please some. I do, however, pledge to think twice or even three times before hitting the Post Comment button on any post I make which includes an expletive. If it stays, you can be sure that it is because I considered it necessary in the context for reasons of clarity or style.

The whole point of taboo words is supposed to be their power. They're the nuclear arsenal of conversational détente, to be dropped only when all else fails. If they're used to express only mild annoyance or disagreement - or as catch-all intensifiers ("a fucking brilliant guitarist" and so on) - then they lose that power and we're left with nowhere to go when we want to describe the truly reprehensible or remarkable.

That said, euphemism and asteriskery - e.g. "Jeremy Clarkson: what a f***ing See You Next Tuesday that man is"* - is even worse, serving only to draw even more attention to what it's presumably intended to disguise.

(*It's also inaccurate. Gadaffi was a bona-fide cunt. Jeremy Clarkson is just a bit of a prick. If we're going to use these words, let's at least get them right.)

I occasionally swear, both on here and in real life. However, if one is a guest and one is asked not to swear, then one shouldn't. So I'll try not to on here.

This actually rather aurprises me. Who'd have thought that a number of grown people, on a music site and therefore hopefully of a liberal disposition, would find swearwords so disturbing?

I must emphasise that I'm don't have any disrespect for this point of view, and although I do swear (a lot) I generally try to moderate it as appropriate, depending on company. As has been stated, other words are available.

I have some sympathy with the view that finds excessive or aggressive swearing discomfiting. I can also understand the sentiments of those who object to use of the C-word and indeed the N-word, as these cause offence for very good reasons.

I do, however, feel that use of these - or any - words is governed by context. Using the F-word when having tea with the vicar is one thing; using it in a crowded pub or at a football match is surely another.

I posted angrily and unwisely once in the past, and I accepted the subsequent censure from Fraser. The posting guidelines are the only law on here, as far as I'm concerned.

But I am genuinely rather saddened that, decades after Kenneth Tynan introduced us to the 20th century, we seem to want to go back to the 19th again. It would be nice if we could relax a bit. Swearing is only the use of words, after all. And words don't start wars. Or ruin economies.

Anyway, as with most things, I'm of two or three minds on this issue. I'll leave it to cleverer people on here to find any degree of certainty. Talking of which, Patrick Crowther's post above summed my feelings up very elegantly - and far more succinctly.

I was rather impressed with "crikey bumflaps" further up there, and wonder if the Massive might be agreeable to a collection of replacement words? In which case I submit "tickly bits" and "fudge".

To me, one of the uses of swearing is when you can't think of a more appropriate word (i.e. a temporary eloquence gap), so I tend to be more forgiving of the spoken kind. But when it's written...it should be more considered - IMHO obviously - and eloquence is not normally in short supply on the blog.

As with many other things, you get desensitized - so occasional use is far more effective than continuous.

Maybe this would help (re Fazackerley's post above):

but sparingly and almost exclusively to emphasise my negative view of an issue. The last time I did it was on the thread about the idiot on Facebook trying to tell everyone how to feel about Gary Speed's death. It has been the F-word and I usually add an * for some letters just to take the edge off. There is always a context and I don't use it to name-call.

I agree: it's not big and it's not clever but occasionally it's the only way to put a level of emotion or emphasis in how I feel about an issue. If it shocks then its sparing use is working the way I want it to in the context it's been used.

I have spotted a more gratuitous use of swear words directed at people, not people on here but people in the public eye. I particularly don't like it when someone posts words to the effect that "X is a ****" and leaves it at that. To me that's for being with your mates in the pub not on a public forum when the level of expressing a view about someone should really be attracting a more considered opinion. You can be brief and to the point in your opinion of someone but to leave it at just swear-based name-calling doesn't add anything and probably does more to lessen the support people have for the more issue-led views/opinions you might express elsewhere on a thread.

Here's a post I made earlier

http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/language

At this very moment, I'm writhing in bed with pronounced food poisoning. And I can tell you that the words I'm shrieking aren't 'Oh dear me' and 'Crumbs.' Sometimes, a gristly bit of Anglo Saxon, torn from the lungs, is just what the doctor ordered.

I recall Richard Harris being on an episode of "Aspel" in the 80's with The Who and Pete Townshend in telling his "whammy bar through my hand" story let fly with an expletive

Harris: let the record show that I appeared on a chat show where it wasn't me who used bad language. They told me before I came on, they begged me, "Please don't say anything rude"

Townshend: Oh I work for a publishing company and the f-word is perfectly acceptable. these days. You can't say bugger

Harris: Oh what a pity, that's my favourite!

----

I say that there may be swearing on the blog so be aware and try not to be a cunt about it. *

* old Jimmy Carr gag

I'm sure I read somewhere that Paul Weller never swears. If it's true, I respect him for it.

many times onstage and I let a few fly when I bought that flippin "Heavy Soul" debacle

is that swearing can offend, but the absence of swearing can not.
I enjoy this site, partly because so many posts are well written and often amusing. I am not particularly impressed nor amused by moronic comments such as 'Jeremy Clarkson (or whoever) is a etc etc'.
I swear too often, but do rein it in when in different company or when requested to.

and offensive. Especially to the ladies.

If I want to hear a lot of swearing and abuse I can I can turn my computer off and go downstairs thank you very much.

Ì also understand people not liking it. As others have said, and maybe this won't be enough to placate the more 'conservative' (and I don't mean that in a bad way), if I do use a bad word, it's for a reason.

I would also point out that there's a "preview" button available. Anytime I write a comment, I preview it and read it in the context of the comment it's replying to. I find the use of this to be a good idea - sometimes a trifle better than just 'hovering over the post' button.

There's your comment. As it'll appear on the blog. Does that 'fuck*' really need to be there? It doesn't? Marvellous. Out it goes.

(*illustrative purposes only)

Sorry about all this.
Yours sincerely,
Stick

Yes, Brian Clough as a paragon of virtues 'don't use blue language please gentlemen when you are teasing that bloody poof we just signed. I thank you.'

"I doubt if there are any rational people to whom the word 'fuck' would be particularly diabolical, revolting or totally forbidden. I think that anything which can be printed or said can also be seen."
- critic\writer Kenneth Tynan on live TV

What a wrong bugger he was.

I saw a house on fire.
There was a man, shouting and screaming at an upper-storey window,
To the crowd that was gathered there below,
For he was sore afraid.

Jump! You rascal, jump!

Nah. Sometimes you just need that f-word.

(There is no such thing, but this is funny anyway)

Sorry about all this.
Yours sincerely,
Stick

I'm a swearer. I don't swear all the time, but I swear. I swear at work, I swear socially. My friends and colleagues swear. My wife doesn't swear all that much, but - as Drakey says above - when she does, it's much funnier.

I don't swear in front of my kids, and swearing in front of children makes me uncomfortable, because their vocabulary is still evolving, and I think a good cuss should be the preserve of people who can use language competently. (You don't get to say "fuck" until you can use the word "lackadaisical" or "mendacious" reliably in a sentence. That's the rule. And if you can call someone a "mendacious little fuck", you get extra points.) But to behave as if children are present just because children MIGHT be present? No ta.

I don't love the over-liberal sprinkling of "fucking" as an intensifier. I use it as such sometimes, but that's the place where it does get done to death. Don't like it.

But I find a catch-all aversion to swearing odd, and a little Pooterish. The idea that it's an index of inarticulacy is, frankly, balls. (Or should I say "cobblers"?) Does being a swearer make me any less articulate? Well, I suppose you can make your own mind up about that. Maybe it reduces me, morally, in some people's eyes. Well, sorry, but anyone who actually thinks less of a person for swearing in general adult company isn't someone about whose opinions I'm greatly bothered.

I think of the blog as a group of friends. I swear around my friends. I will moderate my language if that's the general view, but I think it's a bit of a sad day, because I won't feel quite as at home, quite as relaxed or quite as much around kindred spirits as I have done.

At the same time, I accept that others feel quite the reverse, and I'm sad that my language might have made them feel less at home, relaxed or among friends at any point. But I do wonder, a little, how they exist in the world.

but you're still wrong about "Let England Shake" as all the the end of year polls suggest, you naffing nerk!

Sorry about all this.
Yours sincerely,
BigJimBob (per procurationem Stick)

When my kids (7 and 9) peer over my shoulder when I am reading the Word blog I am increasingly feeling the need to scroll quickly away from some choice language.

This is serious - young, fresh minds could be missing out on your latest post about the Mahavishnu Orchestra or Richard Thompson!

Warning!!! DO NOT play if you are concerned with the level of swearing on this site

Sometimes it can be funny. When I saw South Park at the pictures I laughed so hard at erm...'Uncle lover' I though I might stop breathing. But then, I knew what I was getting when I paid in.

There seems to me to be 'childish' swearing, and 'adult' swearing. By which I don't mean to distinguish between, "Oh pants!" and "Oh fuck!", but rather between swearing as a reflexive response to peer pressure and swearing as the use of a dramatic instrument of language, and between swearing in an inappropriate milieu and swearing when amongst others who might appreciate the effect.

I was genuinely shocked by the public use of the logo 'FCUK', and by the programme title 'TFI Friday', both of which I considered to be outrageously inappropriate, given the audience that would see them in use. Children who need to understand what they can and cannot say in different environments need to be taught as much, and their parents deserve not to be outmanouvered by some gormless, and probably childless, marketing berk. Yes, berk. I mean, WTF?

On the one hand, swearing can be both extremely therapeutic and funny in the right circumstances. On the other hand, most of the offensive swear words are extremely ugly.

No wonder I voted for the f***ing Lib Dems at the last election.

I can see that it's all a bit subjective really, as to whether you swear or not, so just to say that as a christian I go by what James the brother of Jesus said, which was: 'Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear — not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.”' (I think he was fairly plainly spoken, but wouldn't mind the odd slightly longer word...)

Having said that, I'm much more upset by the use of the name Jesus than any of the usual swear words, but I don't (mostly) use them anyway. However I don't think (a) that God is too bothered when they slip out, or (b) that it is up to me to tell anyone else whether or not to swear - they should make their own minds up.

I do agree with geebee though, this blog should be a refreshing alternative to most of the internet.

It was still totally hilarious though when my daughter-in-law, who never swears, came out with the MF word, completely deadpan, at the dinner table, just describing what somebody else had said.

... but I do find it depressing, especially in a written environment, where a spontaneous verbal ejaculation (say) in reaction to shock, isn't a factor. I laugh as loud as anyone at South Park, Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor (for example) because much of their stance is/was based on envelope-pushing, whereas I imagine the reason most of us are here is basically to exchange views in a convivial atmosphere, and swearing, or at least casual, lazy, overdone, malicious swearing, just doesn't seem necessary.

to remove a gratuitous F I used recently...

is heavy shit guys.

Effing in their cars?
Effing in the trailers
In the back roads and parking lots?

Good afternoon.

This is the second time I have tried to make this comment, the first time I was just reading through, went to make a correction in grammar & managed to delete it.

Heavens, I was jolly cross let me tell you.

So, here I go again.

In a recent thread, I recieved some flak for some alleged sexist comments.

I was also mentioned in despatches in the thread about things that would agitate the massive.

I thought I would try & explain myself a little.

First & foremost, I have NEVER intended to upset anyone on this board, as so many others have said, so many times, it is a decent, honourable place, long may it stay that way.

If I have offended anyone, then please accept my apologies, it was never my intention.

I have sworn for as long as I can remember, & I offer NO excuses.

In fact, I rather like swearing, I find it both funny & appropriate.

I would like to finish by saying 2 things.

1) I have had quite a few private E mails from members of the massive, & these have all been supportive.

2) I feel a slight change in temperature here, so, I have decided that if, after a few days I still feel that I should have my tail between my legs, I shall take my leave.

don't let the bastards grind you down

(Review in this morning's edition of The Times by David Sinclair, that I found amusing and relevant to this debate...)

The line between metal and mockery was more than a little blurred on the opening night of this explosive heavy-rock package tour. Steel Panther, the “semi-parody” metal band from Los Angeles, arrived on stage at the un-rock’n’roll hour of 6.30pm. Shaking their extravagant manes of hair, they tossed off a succession of outrageously lewd jokes laced with a barrage of Oedipal expletives in between numbers including Asian Hooker, 17 Girls in a Row and Gold-Digging Whore. The really funny thing was that the songs and Steel Panther’s performance were at least as good as those of the groups they were sending up, groups such as Mötley Crüe — who took over the reins with an almost seamless continuity at 7.30pm.

Amid a deafening fanfare of pyrotechnic explosions, the four Los Angeles veterans, whose ages range from 49 to 60, came skipping and staggering on stage. With their charcoal hair, pale skin and emaciated physiques, they looked like a clan of ancient rock’n’roll vampires.

The expletives now came even thicker and faster but, paradoxically, without the leavening dose of humour, they sounded even more gormless. And songs such as Girls, Girls, Girls were already beyond parody: “Yankee girls just can’t be beat/ They’re the best when they’re off their feet.”

The night’s big moment of rock’n’roll theatre came when Tommy Lee’s drum kit, encased in a circular steel frame, took off like a fairground ride on a 360 degree arc such that the drummer was, at certain moments, suspended literally upside down while still playing. This was an impressive feat of hydraulic engineering, as was Lee’s ability to keep basic time while defying the laws of gravity and not puking. The band departed, generously dousing the crowd at the front with buckets of blood-red liquid as a farewell gesture of goodwill.

What could Def Leppard, the nominal headliners, do to top all this? In a somewhat radical departure, the band from Sheffield simply played a bunch of numbers from their long and surprisingly durable back catalogue as featured on their latest album, Mirrorball — Live & More. The guitarist Phil Collen had forgotten to put on a shirt, and there was a lot of running around between different levels as they ploughed through a remarkably sensible set of laddish, semi-metal songs including Armageddon It and Let’s Get Rocked. But there were no buckets or rockets, and the singer Joe Elliott didn’t even swear very much, if at all. You wondered, by the end, if they had really got the hang of it.

a rock's out of the question?

What is the point of this messageboard? I've heard a lot of comments about the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of expletives and/or "inappropriate" language. Appropriateness is of course defined by context. If one looks at the work of linguists like Halliday the tone and tenor (we can put aside mode here, I think) of speech in an environment is all about the context and the participants. The arguments here all seem to be very much about tone and tenor. This is effectively a long way for me to wonder aloud whether this board is a chat around the table in the pub with a bunch of mates (of mixed ages, sexes and other factors), or whether this is supposed to be a more formalised, serious place to be.

Bob's point about the will of the Massive being relevant is actually highly appropriate. Whether this place has FAQ's or not, communities will cluster around shared experiences, languages (see YDFMDB, TMFTL elsewhere around here) and values. The level of "sweariness" then depends on whether there is any collective agreement on where those boundaries lie. And the problem seems to be that there is. And there isn't. Everyone seems to agree that we don't want to come to a place where every other word would be bleeped before 9pm on BBC1 or where the threads look like so many of the comments pages on YouTube. But there is no real consensus on where the line should be drawn, is there? The FAQ's, as Fraser points out, are guidelines, and not heavily policed ones at that. The onus is on us to try and gauge what we think the tenor and tone of our conversations should be. And that may even change from day to day and thread to thread as the contexts for each of them may be wildly different.

I've just checked. I've been here on and off for about three years and in recent months even I (not the most socially observant or articulate person in the world compared to some of the frankly jaw-dropping contributors in here) have noticed that the atmosphere has become a bit more tetchy, a bit less relaxed and a bit less fun. I wonder sometimes why I keep coming back, even though I'm out in the wilds and can't really hit the mingles when they happen (so I don't share the closeness of some others), and when some seem to be a little quicker to jump on the supposed aberrations of others. I come back because some people here say things I like to read. Some of them are beautifully written, some are a bit sweary, some are a bit blokish, some are moving and profound. But I like the totality of it all; I like the tenor (or liked), and I hoped I understood the tenor of this particular place, so that my tone was right when sharing things.

And so I look at this thread and begin to wonder if, just perhaps, all of this argument is getting all too painfully solipsistic and navel-gazing. Now, I don't mind some of that de temps en temps; I like a bit of umbilical prognostication as much as the next person, but we seem to have hit a patch of it being almost continual here.

I'm not sure I really have a single point to make, though I hope this screed of shite (and for those wincing right now, I thought a great deal about that word - the alliteration and the meter worked best for me there) is fairly indicative of my mood. Choose to read or ignore as you will.

I is gonna keep on keeping on as I did before and I'm sure it'll be fine. I'd suggest everyone else does the same.

Try not to rise to every thread/comment you may find that doesn't say things quite how you would. People come here primarily because of the magazine and the music but we all have different backgrounds, different experiences and perspectives. What may seem to you as going a bit far will not to others. Personally I thought the Women I Secretly Adore thing was harmless enough in the main. Occasionally certain posters say things I think a bit off. I try to restrain the urge to call them to account - all it does is create a bit of uncomfortable 'flaming'. Better to ignore and move on to add something more to your own taste elsewhere and seek common ground rather than conflict. There's all kinds here and there will always be clashes of thought on what is acceptable. Basically following the FAQs works I think. I don't always manage to follow this I admit.

...and love especially how they use the word 'farming'...

The world's going to pot. It's making people angry. Swearing's a tension buster. That's why there's been more swearing. And also more tetchiness. Nobody's immune from a world going to pot.

The point is; to accept that we're all a bit more wound up than usual these days, and try and make allowances for that and be a little kinder than we have to be. If somebody drops the odd bit of choice Chaucer, it's really not the worst thing in the world, but obviously let's try and respect Fraser's wishes.

With respect, and believe me, this hideous year has shown me this if nothing else, the most important thing in life, and here, is to be nice to people. And with that, i wish you a Merry effing Christmas.

Well, there is, I know how to find it, but the link to it disappeared from the blue banner at the top ages ago. It's no wonder people lose sight of it really. This is probably also why we often get Blog-entries with more than one youtube video in them (that's against the rules too and for good reason: it slows the website down).

Personally I've no problem with the swearing, it's just words, it's tone that matters. You can be silly with swearing and utterly horrible without any so-called offensive language if you choose to be. Fortunately I've seen very little of the latter here. I agree with Hannah though that it is more powerful when used sparingly.

The only thing I ever think is offensive on this Blog is when people* start telling other people how to behave. Perhaps that should be mentioned in the FAQ.

*Aside from the moderator, who I think has the balance spot-on.

I swear far too much although generally not on this site. Dont think I have used the C word on here but use it frequently in daily life for some reason.Surprisingly when I posted the 'George Osborne is a twat post' a lot of people got offended by the word Twat. It's funny because I have never deemed that word to be so insulting. Each to their own I guess.

all the good-natured fun and banter we once had has been crushed by a creeping intolerance, and now contributing to a thread is like walking on eggshells.

You can't swear, you can't pass comment on a woman, you can't have a different viewpoint to anyone lest you be accused of being Jeremy Clarkson - every post is hijacked by class war at some stage and then it all descends into nastiness and name-calling.

Though my comments go largely ignored anyway and it's clear to me I'm far and away one of the least popular members of the Massive, I have enjoyed this forum but increasingly I wonder what I'm doing here.

Surely we're all adults here? Do we have to take offense at the drop of a hat? It's actually rather wearing.

Flounce being hotly considered.

I spent a lot of time over the years on various gaming sites, and their respective forums. The forums with no limits were horrible and generally were what made me leave.

One online game I've been involved with for years with a very central forum has what it calls the PG rule. It gives it's social side a PG rating. All activity must fall into what would be acceptable in a PG game or film. So that includes no swearing for instance. Makes life interesting.

It never lead to the forums being boring, on the contrary the forum was very lively, massive arguments, but a lot of good interaction. The mods would actively patrol threads, and would on occasion edit or delete things that went out of what the FAQ said was acceptable. The rule itself rubs some people up the wrong way, in much the same way I'm seeing in this thread. But I never found it to be any kind of straitjacket to my forum activity. In fact it made me think more about what I wrote, as it did a lot of other posters. Getting an intelligent PG voiced death threat from somebody I argued with was...an experience.

of the navel gazing and self immolation on this thread could be put into posting about, like, just stuff then the server would crash under the demand.

Post or don't post, read or don't read, swear or don't swear. There is no "walking on eggshells" or "violent atmosphere!. This is one of the few groups on the net some of whom actively meet each other on a regular basis.

If it was all as nasty as some like to make out then it'd be an empty room. Love us or hate us that's never going to change. There are trolls and agitators here like anywhere else - if someone annoys you then ignore em. it also says in the FAQ "don't feed the trolls" so
pick your favourite and let him starve.

If you dislike this place so much, there is a door but its much more fun pissing out than it is pissing in. Errrr....

Just don't let your only postings here be dedicated to saying why you don't post and running the place down. What a waste of energy. Yes, you've made your point but it won't actively change a thing. Posting about something you've seen or heard, like or hate, love or loathe - that is a positive.

I'm now going to ignore this thread in the hope that it dies a dignified death. RIP

*puts navel away in lead lined box where no one can see it*

I tried hard initially, now knowing you, only undermines all really educated and literate likeable churhgoers unlike nothing this Sunday.

What sparked all this off was a “final straw” kind of moment for me, when what was otherwise a typically good post by a popular (including with me) poster was spoiled, I thought, by the use of a certain word beginning with ‘c’. I thought I was free to express the opinion that I believed the amount of swearing here had increased lately, and that this was why I was spending less time on the site, without it being seen as an unwelcome intervention. So I did. I also took care to say that my comments weren’t directed specifically at the poster, though, on reflection, I could have explained more about why I placed my comment there, rather than starting a new thread on the subject. I ended by saying, “Come on, folks, you’re better than this. Aren’t you?”

As I said elsewhere in this debate, I swear, because, as other posters have commented, sometimes it’s just the most appropriate way to go in a given situation. But I don’t use the ‘C’ word, for the same reason I don’t use the ‘N’ word. When I see the ‘C’ word lobbed around as though it is just another word, it actually feels like a mental punch. I know other people don’t share that view, or reaction.

I choose not to swear at all when I’m here, because I don’t feel I need to do so, to communicate what I want to say. I don’t think this makes me a better communicator than anyone else, or a better person than anyone else. I certainly don’t see myself as more intelligent than anyone else here. And I believe, and certainly hope, that nothing I’ve written could have given any other impression.

I’ve learned a lot, laughed a lot and empathised with a lot of other posters’ sadder moments on this site. I don’t want anyone to stop posting here.

I don’t believe I’ve set myself up as any kind of moral authority. I also don’t believe I’ve suggested a blanket ban on swearing. And the OP certainly didn't.

My sole intention at the outset was for people to reflect on whether a ‘C’ bomb or even a ‘F’ bomb should be the first or best option. If it is, then use it. If it isn’t, then why use it, when you know it’s likely to cause others discomfort? If you couldn’t give a toss, then carry on cussing.

Nice post sir.

Can I give an opinion on swearing (& in particular why I do it so often).

I like swearing, always have, always will, no excuses, no apologies.

However, I have tried being more polite & it just doesnt work for me.

To me, if I think someone has said something inappropriate (an example? Mmm, lets see, maybe a notoriously outspoken host of a popular TV show perhaps...), I will not say that I think so & so is an effing C word. I just wont (or cant), & thats my problem, if I feel a "swear word" is the right word, then that is the word I will use.

Not for one second am I claiming this is "right", just that it is my way.

Can I finish by telling a (true) story from my time in the Royal Navy. It does contain a swear word (apologies given in advance).

While on a bit of a drinking session at a US naval base in Norfolk Virginia USA, a colleague was chatting to a (female) member of the US navy. This guys surname was Hubbard.

Another colleague was at the bar, & shouted back to him "Mother, do you want another beer?"

The Female US sailor said to him, "Why did he call you Mother?"

He replied, "Cos my surname is Fucker"

Now, please, would that have the same affect if he had said
" my surname is the F word?"

as Billy Connolly once said "you show me the English equivalent for f**k off and I'll happily use it. It creates its own atmosphere. Thats why you never read 'f**k off', he hinted'".

I am a relatively minor member of the massive in the hypothetical hierachy, and often feel like a stranger when there's conversation to be had, but I get by. Like many, I have my favourite topics and indeed my favourite posters. I like the eclectic mix of people we get on this site, and find it worrying that we struggle to discipline ourselves sometimes. I don't mind the swearing at all, it's not much of an issue for me even though I swear rarely in the real world. What bothers me though, is the fact that it's taken two-hundred and forty odd posts on the topic and we still haven't come to an agreement on what is acceptable and what isn't. I think we can all agree that using a swear word to define somebody isn't acceptable, but I'm rather pertubed by the percieved wisdom that even strategically placed foul-language is unacceptable. Swearing doesn't necessarily mean you can't articulate your thoughts, or that your vocabulary is limited; it's just an evolution of language. I can accept that some of you are concerned about what your children may read, however, and I like to think my use of language on this site is pre-watershed acceptable.

I'm not sure I know what I'm trying to say here, other than I'm not too sure why we're all getting so worked-up about it.

This wouldn't even be half as good without the F-words:

http://vimeo.com/2140272

Rude words define us, apparently. Well they do if you ask Google "What Defines An English Person?"

And run the risk of sounding like a pompous git, but...

It's all contextual. In some circumstances, sweary words, egregiously bad or otherwise, are massivley offensive. In other situations, the insertion of a well placed "tw*at" can be just the bon mot that a sentence means.

Which led me to wonder about when I find it offensive. My list came out as:
When ad hominem to one of the Massive
When it feels like its an unreasoned venting of spleen - you know, those posts that read as "So 'n' so is a c&nt" - and there's nothing else in the post.

What I personally find more offensive than the judicious use of expletives is reductive statements. There was one some time ago that suggested anyone who would consider supporting the Conservative government was (and I can't remember the exact phrase). It felt like a crass generalization that was bilious, and gave no credit to people having a divergent view on very principled grounds. That seems to me to be to a worse breach of what we think of the ground rules around here.

That was one heck of a dull old read, guys. Really, really, really, really dull.

I have evaluated this thread, and the Word blog in general, and have reached the conclusion that it's pretty much alright as it is. The quality of discourse is far above what you get on most sites.

There is more to like on here than dislike, so let's accentuate the positive.

Kick out the jams - mother fuckers!

only just back online haven't read all contributions so apologies if repeating

1. isn't there swearing in the magazine? - including f and possibly c. Would seem odd that a satellite of the mag is treated differently.

2. Using the my kids argument doesn't appeal to me - I dont want the tone, topics, or language of the blog dictated by people's offspring- again hope this doesn't misrepresent the argument.

3. The 'c" word seems more acceptable or less unacceptable in Britain than Australia and definitely America is it not?.

what's next, blasphemy?