Sic tunes
Posted by Archie Valparaiso on 4 February 2008 - 2:57pm.
Besides Yes's Wonderous Stories and Macca's impressive "in this ever-changing world in which we live in", are there any other titles or lyrics that could have (oops, sorry, I mean "could of") used a drop of quality control before they saw the light of day?
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"If I Was" by Ultravox
Surely it should be "If I Were"? Perhaps Master Ure should take some grammar lessons from Mr Tim Hardin...
Solomon Burke
did a song on his 2002 album Don't Give Up On Me called None Of Us Are Free. No, Solomon, it's None Of Us Is Free...
Depends
Grammar bore: how many of us say " Led Zeppelin are fantastic rather than " Led Zeppelin is fantastic". Is Zep third person singular or plural ? I've noticed that nowadays "Is" is more widely used but to me,who grew up in the 60's 70's,it sounds so wrong.
With Solomon Burke it depends if you decide that "None of Us" is a group of individuals or a collective group. So in this case Solomon is quite correct to use Us as first person plural,so then "are" applies.
"if i was " is technically correct but "If I Were" is the most common when using 2nd Conditionals. Were being used to indicate that this is an unreal situation.
Guess what I do for a living ?
Instinction!
Interesting... what's your take on Instinction by Spandau Ballet then? I always thought it was a made-up word: he means "instinct" but the extra syllable fitted the music better (so he thought anyway). Not so sure now though - it might be an archaic word?
Well...
I was told that "none of us" should be treated grammatically the same as "one of us".
Indeed - if in doubt,
Indeed - if in doubt, remember that 'none' is a contraction of 'not one'.
Just wondering
Are you the ghost of my dead father?
This is interesting...
I'm studying Italian at the moment, and I feel like I'm having to study two languages... Italian and English. When I was at school, English grammar was barely taught. And it is essential when learning a new language to know the difference between, say, a direct object pronoun and an indirect object pronoun. An Italian friend of mine asked me the other day whether one would say "Radiohead are fantastic" or "Radiohead is fantastic", and I really had to think about it. I told her that most people would say 'are', although seeing as there is only one band, technically it should be 'is'. Similarly, with football teams, you'd probably read "Manchester United are playing Roma tonight".
God English grammar is confusing!
Bob Dylan
has a nasty habit of saying things are "so unique" in Dear Landlord and Mozambique. Impossible. It's either unique or it's not.
A pedant writes...
I think Macca would say that he was misquoted and that the *correct* lyric is "...this ever-changing world in which we're living..." which, whilst clumsy, is grammatically plausible.
You beat me to it, Paul...
... but what really bugs me is the use of tautology in song. And as a prime case I give you "Moonlight Shadow" by Mike Oldfield's kid sister.
She sings "Four a.m. in the morning...."
So that would be as opposed to all those "four a.m."s in the afternoon would it, Sally?
Grrrrr. Makes my blood boil.
and you beat me to it, Stephen...
I was going to quote Moonlight Shadow too, but as a certifiable Mike Oldfield geek I have to correct you: it was Maggie Reilly (ex of Cado Belle) who sang on that one, not Sally Oldfield.
Hat duly doffed...
Fair play Matt, a quick check of the old Guinness Book confirms that you are right (although I'd have put a month's wages down that it was Sally).
But isn't it magnificent to reflect that we have the capacity to burn irreplaceable minutes knocking this sort of thing around? It's what raises us above the animal kingdom, I believe!
Yeah, right........
.....is the traditional response to a pedantic teacher of english pointing out that there is no such thing as the opposite of a double negative.
These posts remind me of that.
Speaking of double negatives...
I do like Alternative TV's 'How Much Longer?' where a succession of double negatives:
"the punks don't know nuffin"
"the teds don't know nuffin"
"you don't know nuffin"
etc...
is crowned by the marvellous...
"WE ALL don't know nuffin"
Over to David Niven
Paul, this reminds me of a priceless anecdote from David Niven's second autobiography. I think it was the Hungarian director Michael Curtiz who, wishing the wranglers to release a herd of riderless horses over the hill, shouted out "Bring on the empty horses!" - a line which gave the book its title. Obviously, Niven and his co-star Errol Flynn, give in to fits of laughter, provoking the fuming director to riposte "you English with your lousy language - you think I know fuck nothing - I know FUCK ALL!"
Christmas comes this time each year
Not one of the great Beach Boys lyrics.
Homework: compare and contrast the quality of this lyric with that of 'God only knows' (and then do the same for the quality of the tune, and then listen to the a capella version of the latter that I posted on another discussion topic).
Killer Queen
'Gunpowder, gelatine, dynamite with a laser beam'
Gunpowder, dynamite and laser beams: all potentially dangerous - there's every chance they could 'blow your mind', as the lyric suggests.
Gelatine: Harmless thickening agent, used in baking and the manufacture of confectionary. Not mind blowing in the least. Unlike gelignite, which, unfortunately, doesn't rhyme with laser beam.
It always struck me...
... that the use of "dynamite" in that particular line would be better interpreted as an adjective, rather than a noun. i.e. that the regal murderess in question was "really good" with a laser beam.
You had to be there, I suppose. Can't bear Queen, me.
You could be right
It would make a lot of sense.
But what's wrong with Queen? They're great.
Just can't bear them -
I heard them once described as "The Reginald Perrin of Pop Music - they make money out of rubbish". Aside from the usual reasons (the hair of May, the posturing of Mercury, the prettiness of Taylor and the anonymity of the bass player (was it Deacon?) and the under-lying Nazism in the "Radio Ga-Ga" video) it's the overwhelming pomposity of the whole thing - and this from a man who thinks that "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris isn't half pompous enough. There's no logic in it I'm afraid.
I just can't bear them.
Whats wrong with Queen?
How long have you got?
Ages - let's go.
I simply cannot understand people who don't like them. How can someone claim to be a music fan and not like Queen? Their singles were magnificent (though I acknowledge that every album had a bit of filler) and they looked great.
I'm not so sure...
Hi Matt - I think we'll be in for a telling-off for going off subject, but anyway...
I didn't mind their first couple of singles, to be absolutely honest. But everything else I've heard, every performance I've seen, including Live Aid, just leaves me cold. No real reason that I can put my finger on, I suppose I'm just indifferent and I think that indifference turns to dislike in direct proportion to the number of people who look at me in dismay and say something like "... but they are classic..."
And I do sympathise with your feelings. I was travelling with some mates and put some Steely Dan on. One of the guys sniffed and said "That's the trouble with Steely Dan. Everything goes on for about twice as long as it needs to". I could gladly have struck him.
To paraphrase an old saying - there are two kinds of music: stuff you like and stuff you don't like. I hope that you and I have something in common - what do you think of Lyle Lovett?
He was great in 'The Opposite of Sex'
My wife just told me off for making an interesting discussion very dull, so we'll agree on Steely Dan and be done with it. They are, in fact, a band that used to bore me, until I bought Pretzel Logic, just to see what the fuss was about. It is, as I guess you already know, great.
Can't be arsed, Matthew....
Others have touched on the idea of personal taste. That's probably it. I just can't stand their syrupy clever clever formulaic claptrap. File under: ELO, Spandau Ballet and Blur, I'm afraid.
I was going to say that Queen fans seem generally to have too much time on their hands: a bit more pressure might tighten up their auditory quality control, but I don't really want to keep talking and thinking about teeth, corkscrew hair, home made guitars and PHDs. Too much like work.
Real Gone Grammar
I was never a fan of Deacon Blue, so it gives me some pleasure to nominate 'I did what I should've did' from Real Gone Kid. It's not a bad song, but that rhyme is both contrived and ungrammatical. I can feel tension in the back of my neck just thinking about it.
No I'm sorry...
But it is a bad song. If only for "waa-ooo-a" bits.
Living in Scotland, you tend to hear it at every party where a cut-price DJ's been engaged. Either that or "Dignity", which is equally irritating.
What's wrong with Queen?
Two words: "Sun" and "City"
Yes well..
..using that logic..a pox on anyone who dares to tour that fascist state that was formally the USA.
Still, at least Little Steven held out, effectively preventing his countless millions of SA fans from seeing him.
It warrants no place in a serious music discussion
But does anyone remember the huge hit Ryan Paris had with "Dolce Vita" in the early 80's?
The chorus ended with the absolutely fantastic - "Nobody else than you"
I can't forget...
I'm always puzzled by the line in the Scott Walker song: "I can't forget the one they call Joanna".
Who are 'they', and why do they 'call her' that? Isn't it her real name or what?
I'm new...
...Having read the Word forums with increasing interest from the sidelines for the past few months, I knew I had to join in with this one as there's a song that's bugged me for years now and it's Mr Jones by Counting Crows:
Person 1: "She's looking at you"
Person 2: "Oh no no, she's looking at me"
Therefore, isn't she looking at the same person?
Who cares?
It's a great song, the words run true, even if not in a conventionally meaningful way. I have resisted this sort of point thus far, but surely "poetry" (and God knows there is precious little example thereof in many a lyric, but, hey, who's judging) is exempt from grammatical rules. I am sure most "songwriters" feel their lyrics are more akin to poetry than, say, a textbook on the vagaries of english grammar.
Can we close this irritating thread, please?
Unless I come up with an annoying snippet of tautology/poor grammar/incorrect meaning etc etc etc
Fine by me, Ret
(If I may call you that.)
I probably should have made it clearer in my original post that I was after examples of lyricists trying so very, very hard to adopt a poncily elevated style and getting it so very, very wrong - as in the Yes and Sir Macca examples I gave - rather than a litany of Mrs. Thistebottom-esque knuckle raps about moot points of style.
Who cares?
"Who cares?"
Hey, that's made me feel very welcome. ;-)
Sorry
To paraphrase/quote Marge Simpson, I just got caught up in the rhythm.
Closer to fine..
...by me, too. Mind you, hadn't spotted you had started this one, Arch (equivalent assumed permission), as after reading the Britney stream I may have been too fearful to be so blunt. (I jest)
You are so right: the best laid intentions in initiating a set of views so often veer off into the personal agendas of respondees. I still await someones discovery of the best nose-flautist in rock, rather than the inventive use of a cheesegrater in an atmospheric sound effect.
Yes, pardon my Britney
I must have been having a bad shorn-hair day yesterday, I think. I'm not usually quite that nasty a bit of goods.
In re: nose-flautism. Funny, isn't it, how some threads you start never get off the ground after you're sure you've hit a rich vein for discussion (my supposedly sure-fire effort about Bizarre Hobbies of the Rockocracy last week got all of - hang on, let me count - zero replies) or, conversely, you tap out a quickie to pass the time and on it plods relentlessly day after day.
But that's why we love it here. It's so [vwikmayall]nutty![/vwikmayall]
An All Time Cringe
I've never enjoyed The Jam, but they were at their worst when showing their 'sensitive' side in the hideous English Rose. A truly horrible song even without the lines:
"No matter where I roam
I will come back to my english rose
For no bonds can ever tempt me from she"
HER for goodness sake! HER!
Read your EFL book's chapter on the use of pronouns and then re-write it (but don't expect me to listen)>