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Sabermetrics

busker_du's picture
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Mixed Feelings

Billy Beane's use of stats at Oakland enabled him to build a winning team on the cheap, but only because a) baseball is broken up into very distinct periods of play, which allows a kind of statistical analysis not possible in, say, football (which the action may not stop for long periods), and because b) Bill James was able to show that the traditional statistics owners relied on when buying new players didn't mean much, and that there were other, much more reliable factors.

Soccernomics attempted to apply the same thing to football, but it's far less thorough in its analysis than either James' annual stats or Michael Lewis's Moneyball book. It's an entertaining read, but it's far more a socio-econonic study than a truly statistical one, and it prompts as many questions as it attempts to answer.

More people like Comolli will come into the game, and this will mean transfers that are more closely tied to actual player contribution rather than tabloid hysteria, but I think we're a while away from sabermetrics being a truly reliable measure of ability in football. Pro Zone will help.

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Fraser Lewry | 4 November 2010 - 3:21pm

As a statistician who works with sport data...

...I have to agree with Fraser. The problem with football is that it has a spatial element to it which is very difficult to quantify because the position of the other players on the pitch matter so much. For example if a player has the ball 30 yards from goal, the chances of scoring are obviously different if there is no opposition player bar the keeper in front of him rather than all 10 of the other team's outfield players. Which statistics now collected take this into account?

Interestingly there has been research done using all the stats that are collected and all were found to be statistically insignificant for predicting how well a team would perform. Even shots (on target).

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 3:50pm

Sport & Data

If I didn't work at The Word, that would be by dream job. Apart from pro golfer, obviously.

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Fraser Lewry | 4 November 2010 - 4:04pm

Funny. If I didn't do this...

...my dream job would be at The Word.

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 4:18pm

Hmmmm

Some kind of job-share is the obvious solution.

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Fraser Lewry | 4 November 2010 - 4:21pm

Tricky as I live and work in Holland...

...but still. By the way, you might tell David that Tottenham have an 85% chance of getting through Champions League Group A now according to our statistical model.

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 4:47pm

What about Henry Stott's work?

He's been studying football from every data-related angle for a while now (the results are condensed by Danny Finkelstein in the Fink Tank in The Times)and applying all sorts of analytical models to it.

The bookies like his stuff, and they ain't daft..

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Lenny Law | 5 November 2010 - 12:46am

More please

and where can we find out more about this research? I found the Moneyball book very interesting, and would like to know how and why it can/cannnot be applied to footie. Especially as a Liverpool supporter.

Sad, aren't I?

The results for music might be quite disappointing. I suspect ambition and workrate count a lot more than we might expect. Musical ability and singing for less than we would hope.

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paulwright | 4 November 2010 - 3:59pm

I don't have a reference handy...

...as that sort of thing doesn't appear to be on the internet but only in very expensive journals which I also don't have copies of. I've been involved in a project to rank all top flight football clubs which we currently have on a website here (www.euroclubindex.com). The website will be greatly improved in the next couple of weeks I hope.

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 4:38pm

information wants to be free...

but people need to be paid. Understandable. It is only an interest for me, but a living for some people.
thanks for the link.

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paulwright | 4 November 2010 - 7:51pm

A few thoughts

Any analytical tool based on statistics will have some inherent limitations:

1. It can only include quantitative 'metrics' (e.g. how many passes made, how many are forward, how many are successful, average distance, etc), and not qualitative information (e.g. how difficult was the pass, did the player select the 'right' option, etc).

2. There are many variables that are outside of the scope of the analysis, and the number and influence of these may serve to render misleading results (e.g. weather / pitch conditions, ability / form of team mates, game conditions - e.g. risky long balls into penalty area if losing 1-0 with 2 mins to go, safe short passes if leading 1 - 0 with 2 mins to go, etc). The most obvious of these will be tactics. This goes beyond formation and will reflect the wishes of the coach - it's probably fair to say that Arsene Wenger will send his left back out with rather different instructions to Sam Allardyce.

3. Where responsibilities are divided between one person for recruitment (i.e. squad) and another for coaching (i.e. team and tactics), then it is difficult to measure the success of the person in each role. Is Gareth Bale such a good player because Comolli's scouts spotted him (although he was hardly an unknown at Southampton), or because of the work of the Tottenham coaches in training him, or because of Harry Redknapp's tactics? I'm sure all 3 parties will claim the credit. What about Gomes, who looked poor at the start of his Spurs career, but then 'came good'? What about Darren Bent, not really a success but now flourishing at Sunderland? What about Gilberto, a flop? Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan. Although it is good for a club to have a strategy, unless they work as a team, the division of roles allows for finger pointing.

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busker_du | 4 November 2010 - 6:31pm

Your second point is interesting....

...in the light of a conversation I had with a Dutch coach. He said that it's all very well measuring this stuff and presenting it to him but he needs to be able to tell the person doing the measuring what he is looking for. For example, if a player makes a number of successful dribbles in the match, that looks good in raw figures but what if his manager has told him not to dribble but to play short passes when he receives the ball.

On Gomes: I've lived in Holland for 10 years and saw all of Gomes' career at PSV. He is far and away the best goalkeeper I have seen in this country and his early performances at Spurs were probably in part due to low confidence. Redknapp and his team seem to have sorted this out which they should receive credit for but the real credit should go to the Dutch scout who discovered him in Brazil. The man who discovered him currently works for Chelsea.

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 7:04pm

Bibliography

Enjoyed The Italian Job on the environment, and currently enjoying Jonathan Wilson's Inverting The Pyramid on the history of football tactics.

Any other recommended reading?

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busker_du | 5 November 2010 - 11:12am

metrics

I agree that there are some things that are unquantifiable - but the interesting bit is things that might be. I can recognise the genius of Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and Jose Mourinho (sadly), but I don't know how they do it. Probably they do. What I think is more interesting is the lesser clubs and lesser managers. Sam Allerdyce seems to be very "scientific" in his approach - and has pretty good success. Some clubs just seem to think that emotion and a great record as a player will be enough - and it usually isn't (see Roy Keane). Is there an opportunity for the overachieving cheap club in soccer? Wimbledon and Charlton seem to be evidence in favour.

Of course really I am just trying to find out what Benitez and Hodgson see in Lucas Leiva, cause god knows I don't get it...

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paulwright | 4 November 2010 - 8:08pm

With some or all of them...

...it could be down to management skills rather than anything scientific in terms of the way their teams play. I'm not saying there's nothing in it as I'm sure ProZone can help on certain things.

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UtrechtSimon | 4 November 2010 - 9:31pm

Lucas

... is an interesting one, and probably a good example. He was player of the year in Brazil and captain of Brazil U-21s when Liverpool signed him. He was described as an attacking box-to-box midfielder. Unfortunately, Liverpool have a guy called Gerrard who plays in that position and is captain. They also used to have Alonso and Mascherano, who both played centre midf, so Lucas (when he did play) got used as a holding midfielder (not his real position). Lucas now seems to be getting rave reviews for his performances for Brazil.

So, does he just play better for Brazil, or does the way they play suit him better?

Reminds me of a young Spanish centre half who's been in Liverpool reserves for a few seasons. Daniel Ayala. He was a top young player in Spain, and now on loan to Hull. One of the main reasons given for his failure to break through into the first team at Liverpool was the differences in styles in England and Spain. In Spain, with a more patient build up, he was used to playing with the action largely taking place in front of him. In England, he found himself always turning and running back towards his own goal.

BTW, if you don't *get* Lucas Leiva, what on earth must you think of Christian Poulsen? Surely one of the worst players to wear a Liverpool shirt in living memory.

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busker_du | 4 November 2010 - 10:06pm

you read my mind

Having just watched tonight's game, I do think Poulsen is just a poor man's Lucas. I never rated him but had only seen him in big tournaments for Denmark and the very odd club game. Unfortunately, I think I was right.

I have a bit of time for Lucas. He is not Xabi or Javier, but I thought he was one of LFC's only consistent performers last season. Not saying all that much, admittedly.

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Monsignor_Bonehead | 4 November 2010 - 11:15pm

Unfortunately ...

... Poulsen is Hodgson's marquee signing, the one that he wanted to build his team around. From what I have read, he's been trying to sign him (for various clubs) for the last 5 to 10 years. Sadly, Poulsen looks as out of his depth and off the pace as Hodgson. Don't let the 'three wins on the bounce' mantra deceive you.

I agree that Lucas was one of Liverpool's best players in what was admittedly a poor season. Unfortunately, at this stage of his career, he will always come off second best in any comparisons with Gerrard, Alonso or Mascherano (but they're not exactly bad players). Remember when a Manchester Utd fan tried to sell Darren Fletcher on e-bay for 1p a few years ago? How we all laughed. Although a different type of player, I think Lucas could well develop and flourish in the same way, whether at Liverpool or somewhere else.

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busker_du | 5 November 2010 - 11:09am
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