My friend is a Motherwell fan, and he is loving it. But I just feel sorry for the supporters. There but for the grace of God goes my club.

I'm also unsure as to what he's about. It seems the media (and a lot of the fans) have already decided that he's scheming toe rag. I'm inclined to think that no one in their right mind would have taken on this Rangers mess if their intentions were less than honourable. If he IS trying to pull a fast one, then I can only imagine that he has a death wish.
That said, I shall endeavour to give him the benefit of the doubt.

as their situation is perhaps the closest parallel to ours. Is this article a fair summary, do you reckon?

Could Leeds blueprint be the way forward?

they'e too popular and some person will always make a living from that.

If they do go then there are things much more important to worry about.

Rangers seem not to have paid any PAYE or NI contributions for this season. That is the reason for the rush to the Court today, not the big tax case. The "old regime" is clearly to blame for the ongoing tribunal case, but they can't be blamed for not paying tax this season.

Additionally, they have pre-sold the next four years' season tickets, which is very unusual... If this was a legitimate move, why be so secretive about it?

Rangers have a big black hole in their cash flow due to the absence of European income. But, they have £24m from the season tickets, £9m or so from not paying tax, £3m profit from Jelavic... where did all that money go? If it was simply to plug holes in the cash flow, why not be up front about it? Given Whyte's track record, it is difficult not to be suspicious.

and traditions of this "great" club in the media is getting a little wearing.

Rangers' traditions pre-Souness largely involved the promotion and propagation of sectarian bigotry and, post-Souness, a descent into morally vacuous Thatcherism built on recklessness, self interest, greed and a total disregard for the well being of the league they were operating in.

Latterly they were operating a sort of tax-free slush fund aimed at bribing players who would otherwise have laughed at the prospect of moving to Govan; something which seriously taints the trophies won throughout that period. Some people might even say they cheated.

Add to that their routine asset stripping of smaller Scottish clubs whilst arrogantly dismissing any of their concerns and it's very hard to feel any sympathy at all.

The only positive outcome to this sorry mess would be that the newco who emerge from eventual liquidation genuinely eradicate sectarianism, totally abandon their shameful "traditions" and begin to behave like they have some responsibility to be part of the wider scottish football community.

If they don't I hope they die and stay dead.

And no, I'm not a Celtic fan. In fact, I hope they're next.

"Shameful traditions" of which you speak??

(I see you've got some up arrows. Nice one)

And what's that got to do with the price of fish? It so happens that my name is Billy. I can spell it out for you -- it's a play on words: Billy > Billyous (Billious) Get it?

Now these "Shameful traditions" that they need to "truly eradicate". Can you enlighten us as to exactly what they are?

Ooh, more up arrows from the wings!

Ok. I'll take you at face value.

Rangers and sections of the Rangers support's involvement in sectarianism is a matter of public record. Rangers failure to eradicate it is also a matter of record. I don't propose to write a list.

As I said, try Google.

I think I know what you're implying with the up arrows comments but you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm not on Twitter, I dont go to mingles and I dont know anyone on here. Sometimes people agree with you because they think you're right.

A flute tune, obviously.

There's remarkably little comment on HMRC's allegation that Rangers have ripped off EVERY ONE OF US to the tune of up to £75 million. That's money away from useful stuff - schools, hoitals, debt repayments, tax cuts (delete to taste) - and given to absurdly over-paid oafs instead. If true, this is worse than Fred the Shred's antics; shystering, not hubris.

If I was Sir David Murray, I would be buying in some tippex for the headed notepaper, just in case.

...by Karma and Co.

having been dragged up in a Catholic household, but I'm sure Celtic can't relish the idea of winning a one horse race year after year. Quite simply, they need Rangers.

Celtic need Rangers. Rangers need Celtic. And Scottish football needs them both. Fact.
The worm in the woodpile is Whyte... he has consistantly lied from day 1.
Really to many to list here, but if anyone wishes I could give half a dozen without any research.

Regardless of all the Sectarian bullshit arguments which really are a side issue the sad thing about all olf this is that it is the start of a much wider malaise. There are millions of people in this country who love football but sadly it has been tainted by Sky and the total obsession with wealth to create greatness. We will never again see the achievements of say Nottingham Forest under Clough - promotion followed by Championship followed by European Cup in successive seasons simply because anyone coming out of the championship doesnt have enough money to compete in the Premier. Even the moderately wealthy clubs can only achieve mediocrity. Chelsea bought success just as Man City are doing now. Unfortunately less wealthy owners live the a dream they cannot realise. My club Birmingham City won the Carling cup last season promptly followed by relegation and a disintegration of the team and the financial structure of the club. This season by luck we have possibly the best manager outside of the Premier League who has worked miracles with a small squad of free transfers or cheap signings. He has forged a team spirit that is fantastic but the team is over achieving. If we fail to get promoted this year it is most likely the club will end up in administration unless a rich benefactor comes along. Unfortunately for success these days millionaires are little use, you need billionaires. I think the game has ,lost its 'beautiful' status and I feel for you Dougie - I know what it means to see your club in terminal decline.

are a hugely important part of British culture (another scintillating insight there Dave) and to see any of them decline the way Rangers seem to be is sad. But the clubs, owners and authorities bring it on themselves. In what other industry could you get away with spending so much more than you earn? It's mathematical suicide and the fact that these intelligent people continue to play Russian (or whatever nationality your owner happens to be) roulette with future ticket sales, ridiculous wages, 20 team backroom staffs etc so the wheel will keep turning. Simple equation for FIFA, incomings must at least equal outgoings or you're relegated, pay your bills or you're banned, balance your books boys. Everton would be top of the Premiership and truly talented managers and players would be rewarded. But what do I know?

The argument that Rangers must be saved "for the good of Scottish football" is nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. If you take this to its logical conclusion, then Celtic are also required for Scottish football to flourish.

However, I don't recall any outpouring of grief from the Scottish sports media or Rangers fans/owners in 1994 when Celtic were hours from being wound up. On the contrary, I remember a serious amount of gloating coming from those ranks, including the Sunday Mail sending a hearse to Celtic Park.

No club should be allowed to contravene the rules that are inherent in any sporting competition; namely that everyone competes on a level playing field. Rangers spent money that wasn't theirs, forcing other clubs to spend recklessly in a vain attempt to keep up. If this hadn't happened, perhaps Dundee United, Hearts, Hibs, and Aberdeen might be a lot closer to the two Glasgow clubs, both in sporting and financial terms.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you...Glasgow Citi!!

about the pointlessness of the SPL when the second-placed team is deducted 10 points - and, guess what, they're still in second place.

It's business as usual for the Old Firm, I suspect.

I was brought up in a Rangers supporting family (Spot the code?).

But I have to say that the culture of Rangers is exclusivity and hatred.

In this culture you will see nazi style salutes. You will be threatened with violence if you don't stand up for (or otherwise acknowledge) 'god save the queen'. You will encounter the far right eg the Scottish Defence League in the only place in Scotland where they find room to flourish. You will find support for Ian Paisley and his like (and you will see many many Rangers shirts at 'orange' sectarian parades).

I would love to see the end of Rangers. And I won't be too sad if Celtic follow follow on behind them.

I'd put that bet on Celtic to win the league....probably too late now.

I was a Rangers fan all through my childhood and was obsessive about the results right up to my late teens.
But that's all it ever was to me, a football team that won, lost or drew. Then it was on to the next game or the next season.
Living in the south of England I never had to experience first hand the viciousness and hate that the religious divide spat out. I couldn't give a hoot about the financial situation of the club. I was only interested in watching the game or reading the match report.
Maybe that's not a fan in the real sense of the word and I accept I may have been an onlooker only.
My interest in football waned either coincidentally or subconsciously because of the rise of the big money and the stuff that went with and that just seemed to detract from 22 lads kicking a ball around for 90 minutes that interested me as a kid.
Now we have fans revelling in other fans' misery at the downfall of what is the cornerstone of some of these people's lives and the religious hatred and accusations fly once more and I am just glad that I got out of the thing when I did.
I wish everyone on all sides would put this hateful energy into something positive and everyone can try to be the bigger person. It's relentless, soul-sapping and pitiful.

my heart isn't exactly bleeding for the Rangers fans.

1. Any criticism of either of the Old Firm's behaviour with regard to sectarian issues is met with examples of how the other side do the same or worse.

2. Any negative media coverage is described as institutional bias against them.

3. There is a general perception that the football authorities are also biased against them.

We've seen great examples of all three in this thread. Especially no 1.
Thanks for playing.

Is it true that HMRC have said that, in the event of losing the case against Rangers, that they will "appeal, appeal and appeal again"?

If it is true, it is an extraordinary statement and one that should be challenged in the courts.

This article in the Herald today is interesting:

Ross County's Roy MacGregor insists the problems of Scottish clubs can be traced to the degradation of links with the local community

"I look at other clubs, Aberdeen, for instance, and I'm sure people would agree that in the last 30 years they have never really engaged the supporters. I spend two or three days in Aberdeen every week for my business and I often wonder why that club, which had so much success at one time, has gone into the wilderness and I believe it has to do with the failure to touch the people. Hopefully, as they go to their new stadium they can think about embracing the supporters more.

"I think that is true of most clubs. The roots of the game have come away from the terraces to the prawn sandwich brigade and I don't think that's been good for football."

Can't comment on the Aberdeen scenario, but I think what he says in general is fair comment and obviously Rangers at the height of the Murray era exhibited the 'prawn sandwich tendency' more than most.

He also mentions how he was there, coincidentally, when Fergus McCann did the deal that saved Celtic from their own 'cracked crest' nightmare in the mid-90s and speaks of his admiration for him. There is a broad consensus among the Rangers support for something similar (or actually much more along the German model) to emerge from the present turmoil at Ibrox, i.e. a model with much greater fan involvement

Thoughts of a neutral observer (Honestly), with no axe to grind.

Should Rangers go under in some way (doubtful IMHO), when they return in whatever shape or form,(as they surely will), they will have a huge sense of injustice (or chip on the shoulder depending which view you take), which will fuel further animosity.

This could make todays gentle singalong terrace chants seem like nursery rhymes.

As for Celtic joining the EPL - never happen, for better or for worse, Celtic (&, FWIIW Rangers), are Scottish clubs, & will not be allowed to operate under a flag of convenience.

This has been an interesting thread although I do feel that Dougie and the other Rangers fans have been treated rather unfairly at times; one was even wrongly accused of sectariansim as a result of a misinterpretation of his user name. The fact is that both Rangers and Celtic have both made strenuous efforts to rid the clubs of the scourge of sectarianism but the clubs cannot be completely successful until it is eradicated from society as a whole.

I have a friend in work who is a Celtic supporter. He is disgusted at sectarian and pro-IRA chants at Celtic matches but says it is now largely confined to away matches where the club has less control. I don't know any Rangers supporters but I'm sure most have similar views. I reckon the majority of both sets of supporters would wish the sectarian problem would go away and they could be left to simply support their respective teams.Most supporters just want their team to win and could not care less about the race or religion of their players.

As a matter of interest, how bad is the sectarian problem in (a) Glasgow (b) Scotland as a whole? The impression is certainly that it is largely confined to Glasgow.

I've stopped reading this 'Us v Them' righteous tennis thread. It is tedious in the extreme. I am not a fan of the OF, I support Motherwell. I am sick of their pontificating. They are both guilty of it.

Rangers are in trouble. This we know. Their fans are upset. This is sad. In the past other clubs have been in trouble. Sadly Rangers had little sympathy for their plight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/628268.stm

Most people do not give a damn about this. Get Used To It.

But you know, I chuck it in there anyway.

And the length of this thread makes me respectfully disagree with you. People do give a damn. Maybe not "most" people, but people.

And I do cheerfully hope Celtic are next.

ganglesprocket,a person who I read and admire you've just gone wrong.think!

And In somnia.

Tomorrow I may agree with you.

Stramge developments...
The transfer of Cousin has been rejected by the SPL as I expected...however, this part caught my eye....

And a statement from the SPL says they were "presented with a contract between Daniel Cousin ("the Player") and Rangers FC dated 17 February 2012, signed by the Player and by Paul Clark, the Joint Administrator of The Rangers Football Club plc (in Administration)".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17034037

I'm not sure any administrator should be adding to the workforce of any business under their administration. Perhaps if say Rangers only had 10 players on their books and needed an extra employee, but adding to the wage bill unnecessarily seems a very peculiar move to me.

Killie do it again.

K.T.I.D

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/rangers-historic-day-is-mar...

On the day when the eyes of the world were upon them, and having nothing to lose, this was the songbook of choice at Ibrox. For those of you not familiar with 19th century Irish politics, 'fenian' is used in parts of Scotland as an alternative to 'catholic'.

I'm not being selective in citing this article. You can find others should you wish.

You appear to be "what abouting" again.

Goatboy talks about Rangers fans disgracing themselves. You say "what about" some thing which is nothing related to GB's point. It doesn't alter Goatboy's actual point.

Those people disgraced themselves. Goatboy's point is valid. Your reply did not respond properly. You raise something pointless and unrelated to what GB was saying as if it was an actual response.

Now I don't actually care if you support Rangers. It's fair enough, people do. I will not condemn anyone for the team they support. People are people.

But the behavior of your lot at that game was disgraceful, and the bad behavior of other people does not defend the bad behavior of your lot. It just doesn't. And the willful blindness you are displaying here does you no favors. And it doesn't help your actual argument.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you support the chanting that goes on at your club?

All I hear is you defending Rangers while glossing over the fact that their history regarding Catholics is disgraceful?
Is or was Rangers an anti catholic club?

always been quite proud of my Scottish connections, after this thread maybe not so. Shame that.

But made me laugh a lot

A Scottish friend posted on Facebook: "A £1 coin was thrown on to the pitch at Ibrox yesterday. Strathclyde police are trying to work out if it was a missile or a takeover bid"

Yes officer I am English

PS Dave A don't worry too much about it if nations didn't have outbreaks of incomprehensible navel gazing they wouldn't be nations

PPS Scotland is such a great place (apart from rain and midges obviously) it just doesn't matter

PPPS Did Scotland ever land on the moon?

If I may be so bold as to ask a question that actually relates to football, how big is the Rangers squad? and what sort of level are the wages up there? Are there any rules in Scottish football as to percentages of turnover that is allowed to be spent?
Are Rangers in this mess purely due to the tax issue or have they been chasing rainbows for too long?

ps. As a Millwall fan I can understand how annoying it is to be condemned for the idiotic act of others.

Can I say this is by far the most civilised discussion on the Old Firm I have ever taken part in? I tried to get a discussion thread on my FB but I had to halt it as my (real life) friends were becoming quite heated to the extent that it wasn't worth it.

It's a bit of a shame that the Rangers supporters on here are getting the heavy end, but this is their subject. (Is it telling that no one has a positive word to say about RFC other than their own supporters?).

Re the murder of the young man (Mark Scott lest we forget). This happened in the middle of the most "rangers' part of Glasgow. He was killed just because he was coming home from Celtic Park via this terrible part of Glasgow. I was there in a working capacity. I could say more but this isn't the place.

There are very nasty persons on both sides of this divide but I would say this; Rangers are self selecting and exclusive - I don't know any Catholic who supports them but no doubt there are some. On the other hand, Celtic are comparatively inclusive and I know many non-aligned, non-catholics etc who feel at home supporting them.

Would this lighten things a wee bit? (For the non Scots, this was THE hogmany TV show up here for over 10 years. There was a lot of surprise at this subject even being on telly. In fairness, it was a long long time ago.

The Green, White and Gold - the republican and rebellious ideal, will always be championed over and above any "establishment" or imperialist organisations. Same happens in Spain and, to a degree, Argentina.

It's the football equivalent of The Clash.

Hibs are playing Celtic. I'm out and about, and coincidentally head back to my flat in the hour before kick off. Being a football guy, football crowds don't bother me – except this was different. Serious police presence, horses, and an exuberance about the Celtic support that seemed to be bordering on dangerous levels.
This was the first gathering of Celtic fans since Rangers officially went into administration, i think, and there was 'a party atmosphere'. Men in silly hats, songs about jelly and ice cream, massive drinking and an intensity of feeling that all too often flips over into violence when the pissed-up Scottish male is involved. In seconds.
I was making a mental note to be extra aware of who was around me, what they were doing and where they were looking.
In the local mini-supermarket, Celtic fans are loud, swearing and looking for something they can "drink quickly" (verbatim quote) - not the kind of behaviour that passes as normal, even in Leith. Man at supermarket checkout in green & white scarf (not Hibs) tries to relay his joy to someone, 'It's the end of decades of apartheid,' he offers, explaining why the demise of Rangers is a good thing, before paying for his high-alcohol cider and getting back out into the street. It didn't really seem like the time to ask if he had ever experienced any anti-Catholic prejudice in his adult life – from major employers for example, PLCs or public sector bodies. Or if he was so down on religious apartheid - which Rangers haven't pursued in their recruitment policy since the 1980s - then what exactly did separate Catholic schools represent?
I got home without incident. Celtic won 5-0 but Hibs are rubbish this season and Celtic outspend them on player wages by a long, long way. Many drunk people would have gone back to Glasgow on Sunday thinking that the match represented something. It does. It represents evidence that rich football clubs beat poor ones more often than not.

Your work is done....

Just came across this article.

The shares formed a historic link between the two clubs dating back 102 years when Arsenal had their own money problems.
It’s believed Rangers attempted to help out by buying two shares in ­Woolwich Arsenal because their manager, George Morrell, had previously worked for the Ibrox club.
Around 20 years later, a resurgent Arsenal gifted Rangers a further 14 shares in return for their support.

It may surprise many (particularly those used to seeing Irish tricolours regularly at Highbury, or observing the relatively recent Rangers/Chelsea links - which I've never been into btw), but there once was quite a strong bond between the two clubs. I was aware of this in general terms but wasn't aware that there was a direct involvement.

Oh well, another bit of history doon the Swannee...

...the SFA have sanctioned each fixture in the league to have a pre-match minute's laughter.

will have seen this in the notable kits section this week:

Rangers away, 2002-03
After years of big-money deals with Umbro, Adidas and Nike, Rangers chairman Sir David Murray in 2002 took the bizarre step of announcing that the club's new kit would be manufactured in-house. This was supposed to allow Rangers to save money by selling their own strips direct from Ibrox, rather than submitting to the whims of big brands. Middle-range label Diadora paid the club £1 million to have their own logo emblazoned on the club's tops.
More controversially, Murray agreed to an orange away kit along with the traditional blue home top and white third jersey. Predictably, the orange offering was hugely popular, outselling the home kit for the first time ever. It remains Rangers' highest-grossing top of all time. Although Murray claimed the decision was made on an entrepreneurial basis rather than a political one, Rangers were widely accused of profiting from sectarianism.
The media storm did not affect the Gers on the pitch as they romped to a domestic treble. However, the club found itself on the receiving end of furious complaints from fans who could not buy the club-marketed kits from regular sports shops. The orange kit was dropped after just two months, while the in-house venture was eventually written off as a bad job as Rangers reverted to Umbro in 2005.

Wow.

to the preceding rubbish I give you Killie beating Celtic at Hampden in one of the most beautiful moments in the history of the Scottish game.

The wee team beat the big team and won the cup. Not only that, but the wee team were the better side and none of their supporters sang songs about anything other then the love of their team.

Mon the Killie. Fuck the Old Firm. GIRUY.

Goodnight.

The problem with a wee team winning is that no one cares. Unless you live in that wee town or are on the other side of the old firm.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/celtic-to-sneer-at-g...

01 The Killie cup win was important because non-OF sides haven't won a League Cup final versus either of the OF since the last time Celtic were rubbish (1994/95, Raith beat Celtic) while the last time an OF side lost a Scottish Cup final to a non-OF side was Hearts v Rangers, 1997/98 ... Killie's win therefore was the most significant domestic cup result in Scotland in 14 years

02 Celtic might win the SPL at Ibrox tomorrow but I wouldn't go near the place if you paid me ... having seen the way Celtic fans behaved at Easter Road just after Rangers went into administration last month (pathologically exuberant), and given how pissed off the Rangers fans will be, i actually think people might die in Glasgow before Sunday's out. I hope i'm wrong

on a Monday morning, it is very dispiriting. I wouldn't recommend it and I regret doing it.