The perfect artist
Following on from the perfect album thread, here's another one that's probably been discussed a hundred times before - the perfect musical artist. This means someone who is a truly great songwriter, a truly great singer AND a truly great musician (guitarist, pianist, bongo player, etc).
So Dylan doesn't count because although he's the finest songwriter ever to walk the earth he's no great shakes on guitar or harmonica and, arguably, can't sing. Elvis was a fine singer but he couldn't write or play. Hendrix is the finest guitarist ever but his vocal range was a little limited. Sam Cooke could sing and write better than most but was not a virtuoso instrumentalist.
My vote goes to Stevie Wonder but I'm open to persuasion as regards Tom Waits.
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Arrrgh - RT
Richard Thompson would be god like if he was "only" a songwriter. But in addition his acoustic guitar playing is incredible - better than most specialised acoustic players, his electric lead guitar playing is in a different class to 99% of the rest (Eric look and learn), his songs are of course fantastic (how many hit singles has and grammys has he won? Did you know he won bluegrass song of the year he other year fos the Del McCrory version of "Vincent Black Lightining"?) and his singing, though a weak point for some, is great too to my ears. As well as the Fairport/solo stuff his "Grizzly man" soundtrack - apparently recorded in a day - shows the ambient/atmospheric brigade how to do it. Truly a master.
Rory
Actually I'd add Rory Gallagher - obviously a great guitarist, again like RT a great acoustic player (he was a hot bluegrass player for example), slide player, as well as a spot of sax or mandolin to taste, and a nice songwriter in the pretty limiting blues rock field. Not a GREAT voice but a usable one, but on the other hand a great live performer and a lovely humble and decent bloke. Perfect.
Paul McCartney...
...ticks all the relevant boxes.
and...
...he can play the mandolin.
I'd go for Teddy.....
....as his dad cannot really sing as singing is defined. yes, yes, we love it, but.
Paul Simon, before shotness set in can sing and write and strum fairly well. Jackie Leven, Ian McNabb, Glenn Tillbrook (tho' better in tandem, as a songwriter, than alone), Gerry Rafferty, Sandy Denny, Chris Leslie, Clive Gregson, Bonnie Raitt, Paul Brady. All come to mind fairly effortlessly. All are amongst my favourite songwriters who sing and can play a bit. Did Chet Baker write his own stuff?
Play a bit
The thread is peeps who are great musicians too - Gerry Rafferty? Sandy Denny? Ian Mcnabb? Jackie Levin? Gregson? Even Bonnie Raitt - yes, the odd nice slide lick, but....if RT isn't a singer these aren't musicians ;-) Tilbrook and Leslie, sure.
I beg to differ......
Messrs Gregson and Leven are as competent accoustic guitarists as you will find, pretty very damn good actually, and no slouch electrically either. Best observed in a live setting.A good example would be to listen to the Gregson/Collister version of I heard it thru' the grapevine. OK, so Sandy could play sufficient piano and guitar to accompany her melodies, likewise Mr Rafferty, maybe these 2 are perhaps adequate quibbles. McNabb can play very well, and can hold his own at Neil Young conventions: it wasn't just because he asked that Crazy Horse went on tour with him, you know. Bonnie Raitt is, IMHO, actually one of the best living practitioners of electric blues slide guitar. So 6 out of 8, not bad.
Hmmm
I saw Gregson at a songwriters cafe in Nashville, and yes he is competent enough, No more so than a competent folk club player though - excellent songs though I must say. Bonnie is a great singer and has the 'tude but honestly, one of the greatest, je pense pas. Each to his own of course. Mc nabb - hmmm, I smell a perfect alignment of bought cred by hiring legend's band with hard up working musicians needing a gig. Call me cynical...
I'm with Retro
Sorry Twang but Bonnie Raitt is a pretty mean slide guitarist. Go and see her live and you'll agree.
I think I can recall an interview with Lowell George where he sang her praises as a fellow slide player. This being probably the first time I'd ever heard her name.
the correct answer is...
...Jeff Lynne (*ducks and runs for cover*)
A great singer (and harmony singer), multi-instrumentalist, arranger, producer (albeit with 'Marmite' style of production) and of course songwriter. Also happens to be hated by nearly everyone who cares about music, for reasons that I have never been clear about.
Roy Wood is another strong contender by coincidence, who is more popular than Jeff perhaps because he called it a day as an artist a long time ago?
Why is Jeff Lynne hated and Roy Wood loved?
Tidy Beard vs. Messy Beard, innit. Do try to keep up.
Prince
The man can do everything (apart from act, and see over a medium sized wall). It's true he hasn't made a great album in years but I firmly believe that you can pick at least one great track from any of his records.
hear hear
Plus he's the only person mentioned on here who can cut a rug on stage. I've always argued that he's one of the most underrated guitarists as well. Yes, yes, he's gone off the boil of late, but in his '80s prime there wasn't anyone on the planet who could come near him on stage.
I would have said James Brown, were it not for his lumpen-handed hammerings at the Hammond organ.
But can they sing, teabag, old son?
I thought of Roy and binned him, thinking of Fire Brigade amongst others. And Jeff Lynne, ye gods, deserves minus points for his multi-tracked echolalia, following every line he squeezes out, like a constipated lennon.
of course they can!
Favourite Lynne vocal: Lift Me Up from Armchair Theatre
Favourite Wood vocal: Wake Up from Boulders
Jeff sure does love his echo, digital delay, but rarely reverb. Most of his recordings have an incredibly dry sound.
Don't hate Jeff Lynne...
...he's clearly a huge talent and the odd ELO tune I find appealing ('Telephone Line', 'Mr Blue Sky' and the delightfully daft 'The Diary Of Horace Wimp') but his production style I'm less fond of- that massive drum sound in particular. As for Roy Wood, well, I loved The Move- such an underrated band.
I'd have gone for someone like Paul McCartney too. A master of melody and his last few albums prove he's still got it, a great vocalist and musician too.
It's Bruce
No argument. Can add lots of other qualities to those listed in the original post. For me it's also Neil, but I know that some people don't like his singing.
Foxton?
Johnstone?
Chanel?
Forsyth?
OK so Life is the Name of the Game wasn't all that great and he probably didn't write it but one of the few men to have slept with two Miss world's apparently.
ok you saddos ...
To carry on this rarefied level of humour, and noting the location of the apostrophe, can I ask PaulB to complete the sentence fully so that I can appreciate Bruce sleeping with two Miss world's what? Is this actually a continuation of the sleazy lyrics thread?
Could be. In mitigation, I
Could be. In mitigation, I was in a hurry but I'm not adverse to pedantry (or grammar) either.
Sorry
Sorry if that sounded too sarky. I bought the Eats, Shits and Laughs book thinking it was a lifestyle manual!
poor old Bruce Foxton
Two mentions in two days. Both as the butt of a joke. Never mind the mullet, this is the man who played bass on Strangetown. Bit of respect is due.
I know which one
And I agree!
Am i missing something ?
Only one Richard Thompson answer !!!!,This is The Word magazine Blog,Isn't it? c'mon RT fans this is your dream posting.
I know, I know
and there is no sniff of a Bonzos connection - what sort of thread is this?
JM
No one has mentioned John Martyn yet! Great guitar player, great songs, and a great singer too. QED. Can I have my prize now?
Twang
you are so wrong re messrs Leven and McNabb - both are accomplished guitarists and also great lyricists. McNabb IMHO is the most underrated artist in this country - if the population at large jettisoned their cloth ears he would be SS Great Britains second in command behind RT.
Sample tunes
What are a few representative tracks? I have the Elegy to Johnny Cash one which is good enough - in fact listening to it now I think it is excellent. Which is a good album to get? But the acid test - is that JL playing the guitar solo? Otherwise it is just strummalama.
The Ian mcN "Law against it" off a Word CD - again, nice song, but where's the guitar playing?
Nick Drake
3 distinctly different albums. Great Guitarist. Beautiful songs.
One of a kind voice. You can always tell the greats they spawn so many mediocre copycats.
Joni Mitchell
Innovative guitarist, pianist, singer, songwriter, arranger, in a jazz, folk, pop, rock, or orchestral style. And peerless lyricist (well, not any more obviously, but back in the day ...).
And for a bonus point, can come round and paint your living room too if required.
And champion whinger too
Joni is right up there with Van the Man in the whinging dept, much as I love most of her music!
Agreed
Was she always as bad or is it a case of late onset whinging?
Long time
I'm pretty sure she's been like that as long as I can remember. While I can't recall any detail, the 1st interview I ever read with her (in the late but probably not so lamented Disc & Music Echo) around the time Big Yellow Taxi was a hit, struck me because of the contrast between the lighthearted tone of the song and the miserabilist nature of the interview.
Biog
I read her biography and in her earlier interviews she's all dreamy hippy dippy , mostly talking about herself - how she wrote her songs etc etc - it is later when she got some neg reviews that she became whingier. Also she got clobbered by the tax man which seems to have soured her a bit.
Man trouble?
There was a book review in Mojo this month - a combined biography of Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon & Carole King - that very casually mentioned her 'attempted suicide' after being dumped by Jackson Browne. 1973 / 74? Never heard this before. Might explain it, plus that swipe at Jackson Browne on Turbulent Indigo?
I do think
Artists who get angry about negative reviews should really shut up. You held your music up to be judged, so don't whinge when people start being honest about it. Make music you love but don't expect everyone else to love it as well.
Hey Twangy
The best Jackie Leven albums are probably Defending Ancient Springs and Fairytales for hardmen.
Having seen him live I know he can play the guitar pretty well but in fairness he is more acclaimed as a songwriter and raconteur. If you get the chance to see him live you will be equally as impressed by his ability as a stand up comedian as you will be his singing.
Ian McNabb on the other hand is just an awesome talent - his guitar playing is best heard on Head like a rock which is the album part made with Crazy Horse. A really melodic guitar solo features on his song Misty Meadows from Waifs and Strays which also contains the immaculate song Not lost enough to be rescued.
Best of all however is the limited edition double cd of outtakes and rarities called Boots - his version of Wont get fooled again is pretty impressive. Record Collector states this cd is now changing hands for up to £200. Anyone want to offer me a monkey?
And furthermore....
I would agree with Steve about the live experience being necessary to explain my Leven claim. On CD he aims more for atmosphere: I don't think you can go wrong with The Argyll Cycle, Vol 1, to catch the more straightforward drift of his songwriting, playing and singing, which has more of a flow to it than his later stuff, as well as less mood setting poetry (irrespective of my promoting same in the Spoken word strand....)Live it is just him, his battered guitar and several large vodkas.
The McNabb experience is best summed up by the trilogy of Truth and Beauty, Head like a Rock and Merseybeast. (I can understand Azeems critique of the 'Horse sessions,but only cos it isn't background music by any stretch, but cranked up to full volume, is/was a noise to revel in. Certainly in a field in Somerset on a Friday afternoon it worked a treat for me. The live 2nd disc in Merseybeast holds examples that hold up.)
I think even Mr Gregsons erstwhile employer would baulk at Twangers description of Clive Gregson. Listen again, old chum. True, it may be reminiscent of Mr T at times, but if that is adequate, what hope has anyone else? (On this vein, does anyone share my opinion that "Put it there, pal", the highpoint on You, Me, Us could possibly be dedicated to Clive, given his damning by faint praise review of Mirror Blue in another glossy magazine, Mirror Blue being the first LP he didn't appear on after a long run of so doing?)
Disappointed there were no defendants for Gerry Rafferty.
Levin
I'll check out the Levin ones you suggest - sounds like my thang. Might download the McNabb tracks you suggest but I am deeply suspicious. Dunno why. Ta for suggestions!
Joni's a charmer in person
I met Joni Mitchell many years ago, and she couldn't have been more delightful or friendly (and many members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List have reported similar experiences). She even told me and my similarly besotted friend we could go to the press night of the painting exhibition in Broadgate the following week. Good paintings too. She is a consummate artist.
RT is a shoo-in in this category, especially as his singing has, for my money, been steadily improving with age (the opposite of Joni, sadly).
As to Bonnie Raitt, I wouldn't quibble with her inclusion as a singer or player, but as a songwriter. She's written a few good songs, but not many, and I'm sure she wouldn't describe herself as a songwriter.
Ian McNabb I was never convinced by, in any department - though I haven't seen him live so maybe he's a great instrumentalist. I thought the Crazy Horse collaboration was awful, all attitude and posturing, little substance.
I'm glad Prince got a mention. How about Todd Rundgren?
Dylan Can't Sing?
Whadya mean man? I think you'll find he can. He's a pretty decent guitar player too.
Ian McNabb all attitude and posturing?
He writes great anthems and has melodies that other artists would kill their granny for. Attitude and posturing? you must be getting mixed up with the famous SAS man Andy McNabb.
Just to be clear
While I don't like his music, I'm not dismissing everything he's done as posturing. I do feel that way about Head Like A Rock, though. Wow, I'm playing with Neil Young's backing band, get me!
Weeeeell......
...without for a moment suggesting any of that ever went on with Mr Macnabb, wouldn't you?
Celeb endoresment / reflected glory
Quite. I developed a loathing for Pulp due to the "wow Scott Walker is producing our album" (though I subsequently let them off as I discovered I quite like Jarvis following the South Bank Show). And I already hate the Scarlet Johannsen album "wow - I'm singing Tom Waits numbers and David Bowie is endorsing me!!!!!!
Charlie Rich
He could do country, soul, rockabilly, gospel, you name it. He could sound like Joe Simon, Elvis Presley or Sam and Dave without trying and without losing his own identity. Listen to Have A Heart followed by Moonshine Minnie.
Sam Phillips said he was the most talented musician he ever worked with. That has to count for something.
Big Man
...is surely one of the best unknown rock and roll songs ever.
Ahh Come on........
What about Tom Waits, his singing is cute, writes terrifying lyrics and plays all sorts of weird crap that was just lying around.
OK , Richard Thompson and John Martyn are pretty good too.
Much as I would like to agree.....
....and much as I enjoy RT and JM, I say again that RT (and JM), whilst they are both effective and characteristic singers, in no sense of the word are either of them "good" singers. In the same way as Bobby Z was unaminously agreed as one of the worst mouth organists (I can't bring myself to say gob-iron or harp, and harmonica is worse)on a recent BBC4 documentary on that instrument, he is also one of the most effective and uplifting practioners thereof. Larry Adler is a "good" mouth organist,in the same way as Harry Secombe is a good singer, but they both fail to tickle my fancy, more tickle my uvula (wobbly bit, hangs down at back of throat) with the accompanying and resultant effect thereof.
Tom Waits sounds like something stuck in the drain at an industrial laundry. (Quite effective, tho'!)
Oy, Retters, Larry Adler could play a bit, you know
Here he is on Parky in 1980, accompanied by some fiddler or other, doing a rather tasty drop of Gersh:
As for Itzhak Perlman, he must be the greatest instrumentalist of our lifetime, if not the last century. How can a human being do that? (By having a thoroughly miserable childhood probably, I know.)
That is my point.
Technically faultless. Emotionally sterile.
It's a gob-iron!
Emotional fecundity is asking a bit much, isn't it?
Dylan and Young seem to manage,
with little objective opinion of their technical wizardry. Its part of the general 2 notes can be better than 20 schtick.
This is Horst
He stands directly under my office window every working day of the week for 5 hours. And I STILL would rather listen to him than Bob Dylan heave-hoing on the old gob iron.
Whole lotta Rosie
You're all missing the point with your Jonies & Toms. Multi-instrumentalist (plays guitar, mouth organ & drums at the same time) & writes and sings his own music?
Don Partridge.
no-one seems to have mentioned...
Roddy Frame. He may have made a few dubious choices in terms of record producers over the years, and you could argue he's tried too hard to show his versatility on some albums, but he can sing, play and write.
It all came together beautifully on Surf from a few years back. I remember Tom Robinson on 6 Music (back when it wasn't a crime to discuss music on that station) urging listeners to buy it and offering to buy back copies from anyone who didn't like it.
As a taster...
And did Tom Robinson .....
...actually buy any back? I remember Heppo made a similar offer over Willie Nile and Streets of New York. Any returns? (I bought it, on the strength of the recommendation, admittedly on e-music, but I'm keeping mine.)
good question
I've emailed to ask him - in the unlikely event that I hear back, I'll post his response
I'll second, third or
I'll second, third or whatever the Prince nomination. Still the most talented musician out there, even his output is a little erratic.
I'll also add Kate Bush - got the songs, the voice and can play piano. Just wish she was a bit more productive.....
Put It There Pal
I asked Gregson about that. Apparently not. Mind you, he would say that.
My nomination? Neil Finn. He's no Hendrix but he is a terribly good guitar player, the songs and the singing go without saying.
Don't forget
Milli Vanilli
How about Roger Ruskin Spear
How about Roger Ruskin Spear - he could play sax, trouserpress, leg....
Ker-ching!
Thanks. That's this thread's Bonzos connection sorted.
Yawn
Encouraging all these lists/ bests is a bit `Q` isn`t it?