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Panic on the streets of London
Posted by Spartacus Mills on 10 February 2010 - 12:44pm.
In the same confessional spirit that characterized the recent alcohol thread, I wondered if any of the wise and wonderful massive could dispense some wisdom on the subject of panic attacks?
I'm going through a tricky time with them at present.
I've tried forums related to this specific topic but they seem to be full of people going through the same thing, rather than people who've recovered, so the content is often despairing and negative.
With a red face, I hereby request practical advice, soothing words and perhaps some gentle ribbing...
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Certainly
I suffered panic attacks whilst driving for the period 2001-2008. I had suffered minor attacks before this time but it really took hold.
Many things were tried, and all failed.
Then I went to a private therapist for 10 sessions. It is amazing how seemingly small things that happened to you when you were younger can lead you to have unrealistic expectations of yourself in later life.
It might cost you a lot of money, but it will be the best money you ever spent. The NHS councillors just don't have the time and the freedom to really work with you, and might try and fob you off with a copy of Eckhart Tolle or some such thing. Don't fall for it, go private.
This is where I found mine:
http://wam.bacp.co.uk/wam/SeekTherapist.exe?NEWSEARCH
NHS
If going private isn't an option, the NHS have an online cognitive behaviour therapy option that you can be signed up to. You can do it by yourself with monitoring or you can attend sessions. I found it quite helpful, but you do have to put what you learn into practice as you go. It might be a good stepping stone before considering the private option (if that's an issue).
Interesting that the 'unrealistic expectations' bit as mentioned by Mavis above was underpinning my thinking too. We're just *such* high achievers! ;)
seconded
I had CBT sessions on the NHS and found them very helpful. Still not sure if talking about New Order's first gig was part of the therapy or idle chat. Useful techniques, and certainly helped me understand I was not the only one.
On a flippant note, I am beginning to wonder if not following the Mighty Reds might help - particularly after last night at Arsenal. I guess we have no real choice in that.
I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but...
When I was in my late teens, I had something similar. Rather than what you'd traditionally think of as panic attacks, they were more anxiety attacks and they'd manifest themselves in the form of feeling physically ill.
I went to the doctor who tried to prescribe me Prozac, but I said no since I was 17 and didn't fancy getting started on them, plus they're anti-depressants, I wasn't depressed and any help they would've have been would have probably been a coincidence.
I went to my psychology teacher (as it was clearly a mental thing) and she said I should try and have a drink to settle my stomach. While this did work in practice, it wasn't something I wanted to rely upon and, from the facts presented in the previous paragraph, this was also slightly illegal.
It was starting to very much affect my life, to the point where I barely went out other than going to work or college - anything else filled me with fear. In the end, I did the scariest thing I could think of, which in my case, was go to Australia. Seeing as I'd never been further than 20 miles by myself, flying alone halfway across the world (admittedly, to meet a friend) was a big thing indeed.
After that, nothing seemed quite so bad. If I was scared of something, hell, it was nowhere near as scary as flying to Australia by myself, and the anxiety subsided. Now, I'm pretty much ok and, as anyone who went to The Lamb a couple of weeks ago can testify, a pretty social person.
As I say, I'm not sure if that's of any help to you, as I practically "cured" myself with what would probably be known as flooding therapy. If your panicking is happening for seemingly little or no reason, it may not be suitable for you.
Really, I'd advise you to go and see a doctor and talk things through (though, as I say, mine did try and Prozac me up, probably best not to get involved with that). The Interwebs may be lovely for hiding behind anonymity, but we're just a bunch of people who like pop music a bit too much, not medical professionals (well, I'm certainly not).
I wish you all the best; I know how awful I felt and I've known plenty of people who have gone through similar things and they've all beaten it. Best of luck :-)
I would echo Joe R here
I haven't suffered from panic attacks so what advice I may give below would likely be only of minimal use to you but like Joe I did experience some anxiety problems when much younger
In my teens I had a phenomenal stammer. Effectively it shut me up for the period from 14 until I was into my twenties. Reasonably bright at school I'd undo any favourable impression anyone may have had of me on being questioned in front the class by visibly shaking with dread then opening and closing my mouth trying to latch onto the first syllable of any sentence I wanted to begin.
On some occasions I'd even feel dizzy with anxiousness, almost to the point of nausea. The giggling, tittering and outright hilarity that sometimes ensued was, to be quite honest, usually bearable. It was the looks of abject pity that I would sometimes get that really upset me. No-one ever wants to be an object of anyone's pity.
Speech therapy was tried on two occasions. The first time I was told I was just shy and would soon grow out of it, the second time I got on famously with the very attractive young therapist and found myself talking away with hardly a stumble. I was sent home with the diagnosis that again I'd be fine, really.
Well I wasn't. Despite it all I made some good and true friends but I was always the tail-end Charlie whose vocal mutterings and fumblings were to be endured rather than enjoyed. And I just got sick of it. I was aware I may be falling into Depression. So I decided to change. To cut to the chase, like Joe R, I thought of the most dangerous thing an inarticulate naif could ever do - move 250 miles away to London completely by yourself.
I applied for and found work and a career in London, packed a suitcase and went. Fell in with some great people who are friends to this day and gradually pulled myself together. I still stammer, but only when very tired or very emotional, but the locked up 14 year old belongs to another planet and another time now.
I suppose the point I'm trying to prise out of all that is that self-recognition is the key to any fundamental problem you feel you may have with your personality or how circumstances affect it. You appear to have done that by asking advice in the first place. You may be surprised at how positive you may be in 'sorting yourself out' (for want of a much more empathetic phrase). I wish you nothing but good luck.
A former FPO
used to suffer them. It was a process of trial and error to work out what helped the most.
At a practical level what helped the most was as an attack started finding something to focus on - a voice, a point on the horizon, a person, and then try and get her breathing under control. Breathing into a bag didn't seem help, but standing with her and getting her to synch her breathing with mine worked more often than it didn't.
A more fundamental element was to try and understand the triggers and then try manage the reaction to them. (This is likely to be familiar ground for you) She had some therapy to help with this, and a GP should help here if you haven't tried this route before.
One of the biggest issues were other people's reactions to attacks - some comic moments - being offered fudge sticks in my memory - but a lot people seemed to just make it worse, outpanicing the FPO.
They did diminish - I hope they do for you too.
They are the worst
I had a series of panic attacks about 20 years ago. I felt my heart would burst with an overpowering fealing of dread.I felt like I was about to die. What set them off I have no idea as nothing exceptional was happening to me. I put up with it for 10 days then went to the doctors. He gave me a very mild Valium. I took one and within 10 minutes I felt like a new person. Took the whole course and never had a problem since.
My sympathies
I've had one panic attack in my life, but it was enough to make me chuck my job. By that time I hadn't slept for 6 months, had a constant feeling of dread and suffered chest-pains, but it was the panic attack which made me accept the obvious fact that I had to resign my job or end up dead. People who haven't experienced one will ask if you felt as if you were going to faint, and you have to explain that it feels as if the whole world, include the ground beneath your feet is going to faint - I found myself fleeing from a bus and clutching onto the bus-stop for support.
If there is something in your life which is causing you immense strain then walk away from it before you crack.
Echoing the therapy suggestion
That would be my recommendation. The BACP website Mavis suggests is a good resource (you can search by location, amongst other criteria). If you want a personal recommendation, email me through this site and I may be able to point you in the right direction.
Another advocate for therapy
For entirely different reasons, I had a number of private sessions with a local counsellor. It cost a bit, but the insights it gave me - to myself generally, not just the issue that had sent me there - made it worth every penny.
I've suffered from them from time to time...
... and have found sitting up and gently sipping from a bottle or glass of water helps immensely, for whatever reason. If you're not with anyone, give someone you trust a call... they can often be more of a calming influence than you yourself, and take your focus away from the attack and onto happier thoughts, which in turn levels your breathing and body out.
Only basic advice from me, but I hope it helps!
Panic attacks
I had a brief period of time (apparently quite common amongst males of a similar age) in my late twenties where they were a problem. Apparently related to approaching 30 and looking around at your life and what you've achieved. But although there were broader reasons behind them they were sparked by specific situations - my job at the time, a relationship I was in and a band that I was in. They all piled up on top of me for a little while.
The solution for me was to get out of those situations. Which I did over a period of a few years. No more panic attacks since then. That was all over a decade ago.
However, my oldest friend suffers from depression and he has very bad panic attacks. For him it's large crowds and city life that sparks them, so he now lives in a small village in the middle of nowhere in Norway. Quite extreme I agree, but again removing the things that stress you can help.
Hypnosis helped my oldest friend, certain exercises left in place for him to go through when the attack hits. Relaxation techniques, even doing little things like making lists of all the things that worry him so his head isn't filled up with 'noise'.
Go and see a doctor about them, get recommended to somebody who knows what they're doing. Don't accept medication - that helps some, but just covers up the problem for others.
I can't offer specific advice
but the old cliche about accepting there is a problem certainly helped me regarding a different issue I had a few years ago. Whether it is a friend or professional just talking things through takes away some of the anxiety and rationalises some of the issues that cause us to worry. I had 4 sessions with someone where I just talked for an hour and they said virtually nothing, it certainly helped me although my issue wasn't panic attacks. Good luck and keep talking.
I had them for about a year..
..in my mid-20s (I'm 52 now)
They're just hyperventilation, after a while your mind begins to recognise what they are and starts to ignore them. All the advice above is good, but try to avoid valium etc unless its a last resort.
Deep breathing is by far the best cure.
Thanks to all
I really appreciate all of your comments. I've already emailed a local therapist from that site recommened by Mavis Diles and it feels good to be taking steps to sort it, instead of fretting and struggling along.
Cheers
TB
Well as a long time sufferer
but as someone who has got them under his thumb (last one I had was 2003) I can tell you that everyone is different as the triggers that set tem off are multitude.
Personally with me it was linked with social phobia and agrophobia. Slowly over time I had adopted my patterns of behaviour to fit my panic attacks. This worked while I was an university but then the real world came to bite me on the ass
At breaking point I checked into a private clinic for a month. Know this isn't always an option but the intensive therapy and cognitive excercises really gave me a boost.
If you just remember a) YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DIE! b) that you have control over them and c) they are physically harmless - then that is a start but often no help when the fear is upon you.
If your anxiety is linked to events and situations - common ones can be public transport, crowds and the like then exposure to these situations is the way forward. Give yourself time and you'll get more confident
You often hear people say 'ooh, I had a panic attack on the way here cos I thought I'd lost my mobile' ie I got a bit flustered. It annoys the hell out of me.
A panic attack causes you to lose all sense of reality and rationality so all the breathing techniques in the world often don't help cos your body is looking to escape and your brain is working at top speed. So using breathing and stress relieving techniques when you first start to get anxious will stop you getting to the point when you are having an attack.
Don't think you're a nutter, weak or strange. Try and talk to somone about it as others have said, discover what the biological causes of an attack are so you know they aren't dangerous or life threatening and face the fear.
None of that may have been any help, so enough of my yakkin'.
Thanks
Yeah, mine are linked to certain trigger situations. Mainly driving long distances (on motorways) or travelling on trains / planes. I've avoided the latter two for a while, but now I'm starting to get funny about driving as well. It's just agoraphobia really, and I know if I don't arrest it in some way it'll end up with me hardly leaving the house and that's no good. That's why I've decided to take action now.
control
Sounds very similar to the situation I was in. The avoidance becomes a controlling factor in your life. You've made the right move contacting someone for therapy.
Interestingly the word 'control' is very relevant here. My problems were caused by a perfectionist streak, leading to a need to feel in control, and hence avoiding situations where control was not 100% possible. My perfectionist streak was caused by a couple of throwaway remarks made to me in early life that had left a larger impression than they should have. I never knew they were still there in the back of my mind but as soon as the therapist found them, the panic attacks started to recede.
Obviously there is a bit more to it but the point is, don't live with it. These things are absolutely curable.
Yep I've had the driving problem
If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, give yourself plenty of spare minutes and if you feel the need to stop at any point rhen do it. Even pulling over and taking a couple of mins to take on water.
Often petrol stations are right next to motorway junctions so get off, stretch your legs and stop for a minute. If you break long journeys into shorter bits then you'll find over time that the stops get less and disappear.
They always recommend you stop every so often while driving long distances anyway. Your body is building up adreneline and such to enable your panic attacks 'fight or flight' reactions so get rid of it by walking a bit
Make up a mix tape or stuff you like to sing along to - it'll take your mind off it and is a way of controlling your breathing. Tune into local\national talk stations so you can laugh at the right wing idiots and conspiracy theorists.
Try listening to a relaxing tape of music at home as you concentrate on slow breathing and relaxing your muscles. Over time you'll connect this msuic with feeling relaxed and so you can play it in the car when you're feeling nervous and your brain should do the rest.
Exposure and facing the fear is key - not in macho way but controlled and on your own terms. Just build up your experience and confidence.
I used to find even short trips sometimes fearful but I now see nowt of driving many miles to gigs and have done planes with relative ease - apart from the fear of flying as a result of watching too many 'Airport' films as a kid!
Exercise/Diet
I'll pass on my own experiences - unscientfic, but there may be something here that might help.
I suffered from a spell of PAs when I was 16 (I'm now 51). Due to the stress of O levels I think. They were horrible, made me feel sick and I just wanted to run out of school. The doctor prescribed valium - they did nothing, just making me feel as though my head was stuffed with cotton wool. He then gave me anti depressants for a short while and the attacks disappeared, never to come back, thank goodness.
Mrs L has much more extensive experience of PAs. She was on SSRIs when I met her. Her attacks mostly took place in supermarkets or at work. The tablets worked to a certain extent, but she wanted to get off them. The doctors said they were not addictive and had few withdrawal symptoms, but she had a hell of a job stopping. She did though and has been free of the attacks for eight or nine years. The two main changes she made were to take up regular exercise and start eating properly; she was a vegetarian and ate a lot of rubbish. She started eating a good diet, stopped smoking and things slowly improved. Low blood sugar can mimic some of the feelings you get with a panic attack.
If things are bad, I would definitely see a doctor. They can at least eliminate any physical causes (blood pressure, blood sugar etc).
And have a look at triggers in your life - these may not be specific (eg crowded places) and may be to do with other stressors in your life, which you need to address.
Good luck - hope you find a solution soon.
Cognitive behavioral therapy.
I'm by no means an expert in these things but, in my experience, CBT really is the best answer and there is a wealth of evidence to support it as a grade-1 solution. Lots of my patients have used it in relation to panic attacks at the dentists and I have seen it used, and work well, in a number of stress-related conditions. It is one of the few things found to work well in such tricky conditions as Atypical Facial Pain Syndrome.
The Cochrane Collaboration (The A-1 top-dollar place to look for supporting evidence for anything medical) does say that CBT plus antidepressants works best, but that the pills aren't essential. Avoid, however, the benzodiazepines (Valium, diazepam, etc)because they're no good.
It isn't an instant solution, but it is the best. Hope things look up for you, Torres.
wise words
But be careful. The Massive being what it is, an intelligent bunch, I would be willing to bet that TB would do the same as the rest of us, and read all about CBT before visiting the therapist. Knowing what the therapist is doing can harm your chances of progress. For that reason it may be best to do what I did and pick someone who uses a variety of methods including CBT and can second-guess your attempts to second-guess them.
You have to also completely trust your therapist and do what he or she tells you.
yes yes yes
Mavis is wise.
I made that mistake and read up on CBT before I tried it. Hence didn't work for me. Sometimes, it appears, ignorance really is bliss.
Good luck TB. And well done on taking the first steps to getting it sorted and getting your life back. Keep us posted.
Interesting, I knew
Interesting, I knew something about CBT before I began and I reckon that was a good thing or maybe a neutral thing.
I wouldn't see it as tricking oneself - knowing about the way it works helped me understand just how it might be beneficial. And it was.
Just one thing
The notion of doing what your therapist tells you to do is needs to be tempered a bit. Most therapists (and I use the word generically to include CBT practitioners, psychotherapists, counsellors etc) aren't using CBT primarily or at all, and it is only really in CBT that you are likely to have your therapist "telling you what to do" - in the form of practising certain techniques, doing homework and so on. I'm a psychosynthesis counsellor/therapist, and the way I work is really not about telling my clients what to do, or even (for the most part) giving advice. It's more about supporting and guiding people to come to their own decisions, on the basis that, ultimately, they know better than I do what is going to work for them.
I've worked in Mental Health
for an awful long time and I worry a little about the blanket condemnation of the benzo's (valium etc).
Used short term under supervision they can be very helpful. I'll give you a personal example.
A few years back I developed a huge, and crippling, fear of flying. I'd went through a horrendous flight and had deferred anxiety onto every other flight I went on to the point where I literally couldnt get on a plane.
I used valium to allow me to get on the plane and allow my body and mind to begin to relearn that the threat I felt didnt exist. In 2010 I'm completely cured of my phobia having taken numerous flights under the influence of the magic blue pills. Now I dont need them. I've succesfully taught myself that flying isnt frightening. I'd never have been able to do that without the drug.
Yes they're addictive in abuse but can be vastly helpful in use.
And to the original poster: relax. What you're experiencing is so common as to be a normal part of the human condition. Thats a key thing to remember. You will recover. Almost everyone does. DO less. Stop judging yourself. Have long hot baths and try to focus on the moment. Dont overdose on stimulation(no internet and simultaneous music or reading with the telly on), cut out caffeine and get plenty sleep. What you need to acheive is a reduced vulnerability to stress. Imagine you're raising the bar beyond which you panic. Remove the unnecesarry background stressors, most of which are in your head.
And re-learn what relaxation feels like. You've probably forgotten.
Good luck.
As a short-term anxiolytic, benzo's are fine.
I prescribe them a lot and they're brilliant.
But, in the treatment of panic disorders in conjunction with CBT, Cochrane says they're not much use.
No offence, but there is no 'best answer' that fits every person
I'm training to be a counsellor at the moment and CBT is far from the only form of therapy that works. The NHS favour it because it's short - 6 sessions or so - so cheap for them.
Absolutely!
CBT can be very effective in addressing specific issues - phobias, for example; it isn't necessarily useful for addressing long-standing emotional or mental issues, such as depression, low self-esteem etc. This is especially the case where the therapist only uses CBT. There is anecdotal evidence that in such cases, the improvement attributed to half a dozen sessions of CBT is often temporary, the reason being that it's not really looking at the underlying problems. One analogy is with crash diets, which can have spectacular short-term results, which are hardly ever sustained even in the medium term.
I think the first thing is define what a 'panic attack' is...
as I've heard several people say they get them and then describe something totally different to what I experienced. I suffered from them for around six years from my mid to late twenties and they were horrific. They consisted of feelings of sheer terror, blood rushing to my head in waves, adrenaline levels going crazy and my being convinced I was about to die at that very moment. They would come on out of the blue and weren't prompted by anything in particular. I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy if I had one. I reached the point where I went to see a private doctor as my GP had been useless and didn't take me seriously. This marvellous doctor - to whom I am forever grateful - taught me Autogenic Training which was a great help, as was a period of therapy.
As absolutely wretched as you may feel when suffering from them, I would only say that you can get over them. I haven't had one for years now and I am so pleased to be able to say that.
If I could be of any help to you in dealing with this problem I'd be happy to.
Thanks Patrick
The symptoms you describe are identical to mine. Plus I always feel as if my blood is burning (as weird as that sounds). Mine are usually very intense and subside as soon as I leave whichever situation has triggered it. Thanks for the link there. I've been taught something similar in the past and it has been abig help. I think I'll need to get back into it.
Once again, thanks to everyone for giving me avenues to explore along with reassuring words. I'm glad I asked the question.
I don't know whether you would like me...
to give you the name and number of the doctor I saw? Are you a Londoner by chance?
Cheers
But I'm afraid I'm up in Newcastle so I'll have to see somebody up here (no jokes about leeches!). Thanks anyway.
Getting the Fear
I had a few years of it and you just can't write down what it feels like it when you're in it.
I was the head of a graphics team (in a local gov authority) for a few years struggling to get our ideas for a corporate ID through.
It was hell, I had to go to endless meetings trying to put the point of professional designers across.
Two and a half years it took and I was talking to morons who abused their situation within the hierarchy - I wasn't even third tier, what did I know over their head of department status?
Eventually it went through but was overwhelmed by the gov reorganisation we had in 1995-6.
I relinquished power, relaxed. I had done what I set out to do, now I sit back and watch others get bent out of shape. It's not worth the money or heartache.
I can stand in supermarket queues until I reach check out, rather than running out because I 'got the fear'.
I attend mass regularly (good Catholic boy/man) and haven't had a 'fear' moment since 1998 (Glasgow RC Cathedral, Jerry Love of The Fannies was there too).
Then I got bullied at work and my physical health failed, but that's another subject.
bottom line
'the fear' is indescribable, it hits you and as a rational human bean you just can't explain it - flight from people was my exit sign
You'll get through by what ever means necessary man, don't fret.
I hope I was of help
Have a blood test...
I speak from experience...before you think of it as a psychological problem and go down the route of therapy and Prozac and suchlike go to your GP for a thorough health check. Dizzyness, and sudden feelings of panic can be triggered by other things such as high blood sugar levels, diabetes, hyper-tension, high blood pressure and,as in my case,it turned out I had problems with my thyroid gland. I was convinced it was just stress or "panic" but the answer was very different.
Sorry, it may be obvious, you may have already done this and my reply is not as eloquent or as informative as the others(as usual!) but I'd really recommend not to discount the chance that it might be more of a physical condition that could be dealt with easily.
So basically everyone..
..in the massive has/had panic attacks.
Hmmmmm.
I haven't.
I just trigger them in others.
Anything to do with
lighting your farts? It would make me mildly anxious at the very least.
What's the worry?
It's probably safe. And at least mildly amusing. And it stops them from smelling.
Apparrently it's the classic..
..symptom of the control freak. Hmmmmmmm.
Thanks
Sorry for the thread archeology but I thought I'd dig this up to say a manly 'cheers pal' to everyone who replied. As you can see above, I was struggling when I made this blog, but 6-7 months on I'm much, much better. What worked for me was abandoning the fruitless quest for an 'instant cure' and learning to slowly mend my frazzled nervous system by removing unnecessary stressors from my life, learning to relax and systematically facing my fears and allowing the physical symptons of panic to pass over me. It took a bit of courage but I'm now at the stage where I can get about comfortably on motorways (I've completed trips to Duns, Edinburgh, Liverpool and Manchester last month alone) and generally live a normal life. I'm not ready for wing-walking or bungee-jumping yet but I'll get there...
So yeah, cheers.
The Word - A magazine, a podcast, a support group for music bores, a way of life.
That's great news...
may you continue to be panicless.
Hooray!
Extremely glad to hear it
Congrats
its great to hear someone doing well. And don't be afraid on any wobbles* , they can happen but they are temporary and not a setback
* Unless you are Nick Kent or Sean Hughes and that wobble is Jah
I'm really glad
it has passed for you Sam, now let's dance!