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Osama Bin Killed,
Posted by Georgedivided on 2 May 2011 - 7:02am.
which is nice...
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There's never a bad time to see this....
Oh, and...
...nice typo from Fox News this morning. If indeed it *was* a typo:
Methinks one of them had to die
just to clear up the confusion..
My question....What took them so long?
Nearly 10 years after 9/11.
On the one hand it is cause for some celebration, but on the other hand the West can expect some reprisals. You can feel pleased that a mass murderer has been killed, but concerned that his killing will have pissed off a good many other murderous nutters.
Ultimately, it makes little difference to security as Al Qaeda is decentralised and there are so many more extremists out there who are willing to martyr themselves.
It probably represents some kind of closure for the Americans, but killing Bin Laden hasn't solved anything.
Absolutely right
What many do not realise is that al Qaeda does not really exist. It is a purely Western term attached to a very loose network of cells that include fundamentalists acting for many different religions, causes and countries.
Bin Laden was its handy figurehead who had access to money and contacts but it is probable that he had no part in many crimes that are attributed to him.
What this news does is get Obama another term, and that's a good thing in my book. In terms of putting a stop to atrocities, nothing changes as the fictional leader of a fictional group has been killed and that's all.
Thats all completely true
Jimmyshoes. And everything you have said there is demonstrably true as the genuine facts of the case. And as a piece of symbolism only, its likely to do more damage than good in the world.
Referring to the assassination itself, I also wonder what "the US military made efforts to minimise civilian casualties" actually means. SInce it looks like from the only picture they have let out so far, there was some pretty heavyweight bombing going on. And also wonder what the word 'terrorist' can possibly mean, after the last 10 years, and the literally countless muslim deaths since 9/11.
*Literally* countless?
Are you absolutely sure about that?
You'd think that those responsible (not least, other muslims) would have kept some sort of score.
Odd explosions
"Some sort of score". Not really a sport as far as I'm aware. Hard not to get it all confused with football. Or any other sport that we have been persuaded to take more seriously than human life. Countless means they are uncountable. Not recorded or tallied. By anyone.
As for the large explosion shortly after operation - turns out it was one of their own helicopters that they blew up! Apparently it 'malfunctioned'. Call me a cynic, how often do these helicopters malfunction in such a way that they need to be disposed of with such force? And why for a small hand to hand operation was such force available anyway?
Edit #2.
I'm REALLY not going to have an argument on the internet. I'm just not.
You've changed since you got famous
:-)
The helicopter would have contained
valuable information and technology that could have been very useful to Bin laden's lot and even the Pakistan government. They are unlikely to leave that behind for the taking.
And Bob, oh yes you are.....
I'm definitely not.
Really, I'm not. Trying to give it up anyway, and arguments on threads like this never go well for anyone.
True.
I've learned from (sometimes bitter) experience that it's best to leave well alone as these kinds of threads just end up in a stalemate with opposing views ever more firmly entrenched. A while back, I'd have picked up on a few of the observations here but I've restricted myself on this occasion to simply recommending this. Make of that what you will.
Nope, good old fashioned common sense.
"The helicopter would have contained" - I have no idea what the helicopter would have contained, and neither do you. Apart from a clearly a very large quantity of explosives. The house at some point also started burning.
This is an interesting video - a local resident of the area, reports what he saw. The end part of it especially.
Oh conspiracy theorists
love the local fella talking things up to get on TV. Fits in perfectly with their theories. The cunt is dead,, the rest is noise.
Was the interesting part
some bloke saying he walked past every day and can categorically confirm it wasn't Bin Laden's house?
That bloke owns the house next door actually.
And sure he may be wrong, could be. But that doesn't make his opinion any less interesting. The fact that he owns the house next door means he's a damn site more qualified than you and I to come to a conclusion. Interesting I suppose mainly for those liable to want to try and think for themselves.
Oops.
Silly me, can't resist. Edited. REALLY. NOT. Going to do this.
Probably wise
I'm pretty sure I saw the word "sheeple" looming on the horizon...
Owns it
but doesn't live there. And then categorically says that everything reported today was untrue. I might need a bit more evidence before the Bin Laden wasn't there and isn't dead angle becomes interesting.
Thinking for myself
Logic suggests to me that someone with a $25,000,000 bounty on their head won't be leaning over the 18-foot walls discussing the price of mangos with neighbours he doesn't know or inviting them round for games of table tennis. If you really want someone to stay hidden, you hide them. Josef Fritzl's neighbours will tell you it's all-too-possible.
What the helicopter contained
isn't the issue. The issue is the helicopter itself:
"A classified, previously unknown type of stealth helicopter was reportedly used in the US mission in Pakistan to kill Bin Laden, Aviation Week magazine reports" (from the BBC feed)
Of course they would destroy it rather than let it fall into someone else's hands
Probably
the only news that would knock the wed@*%g off the news, so thank you Obama and the US forces from Chez Shoes.
It is a great shame that he
wasn't captured, and put on trial.
I won't shed any tears for him, however.
That was never really going to happen though...
...was it?
Well perhaps not.
I'm an idealist.
USA USA USA
wasnt that keen to see americans out in the street chanting and celebrating! i fear things may get worse as a result , just stirring up the hornets nest!
The best comment I've heard
... was on 5live earlier this morning.
Not sure who it was - but they said "... just have the feeling we have hit a very large wasps nest with a big stick"
certainly the USA USA chanting is a ready made motivational video for every nutter around the world to do something in retaliation.
But hang on..
didn't we see crowds of people cheering and gloating after 9/11?
If people in the West aren't able to freely express themselves (however distastefully we may find it) for fear of reprisals, then Bin Laden's work is most definitely done.
Kind of
There was one small group of Palestinians filmed celebrating, and this was immediately condemned by Arafat. Elsewhere, sympathy for the US was pretty unanimous - 60,000 people attending the Tehran vigil, etc.
Obama's speech in full
I have been wondering who Obama reminds me of
Unconfirmed word of this being released as a single
I would recommend
reading Lawrence Wright's brilliant The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda's Road to 9/11.
Might clear up some of the 'what took them so long to get him' questions. Turns out it wasn't quite that easy. Who knew?
Preliminary thoughts
Being a geek, and using my BlackBerry as an alarm, i decided to have a look at Facebook this morning before I got up - the figleaf excuse is that I have some mates in the US and they tend to post new stuff in the evening their time, so I look at it in the morning my time...
Three people had already passed on the news about OBL and I clicked through to the BBC ... The first question to pop into my head: where's Abbottabad and what's it like?
Answer, from Wikipedia: "The city is well-known throughout Pakistan for its pleasant weather, high standard educational institutions and military establishments. It remains a major hub for tourism of regions in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir in the summer."
What's more, it's only around 30 miles from Islamabad as the crow flies (further by road) - and it's moderately big. We're not talking about a wee village up an abandoned valley here but a place with an estimated population of over 120,000 people - with military establishments. Anyone who knows more about Pakistan than I do - not hard - might be able to disabuse me of this notion, but it sounds like the world's number one wanted man was hiding in a fairly civilized area full of students and Pakistani soldiers but no one noticed the shady blokes in 'Death the the Infidel' T-shirts, handing out leaflets saying, "Have you considered suicide bombing as a career move?" (/hyperbole)
I know it's common practice to overestimate the capabilities of the intelligence services, whether in Pakistan, the UK, the US or wherever, but after all the press about the elusive terrorist mastermind, hiding in a hi-tech cave somewhere in the Afghan hinterland, or in some horribly obscure and dangerous part of Pakistan, the fact that he turned up around Abbottabad (named after Major James Abbott who founded the place in 1853 after the annexation of the Punjab by us plucky Brits) strikes me as bizarre.
From the Al Jazeera report: 'According to Al Jazeeera's Rosalind Jordan in Washington, the operation had been in the making for the last nine or 10 months. "The fact that it happened inside Pakistan, there have been suggestions that Pakistani intelligence may have been protecting them," she said.'
No shit?
BBC now reporting (10am news Radio 4) that Abbottabad dominated by the military and actually has a population more like 300,000. People are expressing surprise that he was holed up in this specific town. Another thing: at the moment no one seems to know where Abbottabad actually is. Al Jazeera has it 150km north of Islamabad, the BBC has it 100km north-east of Islamabad. Looking at Google maps, it looks more like 50km north-east of Islamabad to me, in a straight line (further by road, as noted above).
Anyway, it may not be news that the Pakistan intelligence services and military are not the West's best allies against terrorism, but this quite takes the cake...
/stops blethering on
A couple of points...
and please, feel free to take me to task, explain etc.
1) US Security forces act without informing Pakistan of their intentions.
Isn't this a violation of a country's sovereign right to try it's own citizens?
2) If the US did not trust the Pakistan Government, why did the British Government, oblivious to this, hand over £650 million to such a corrupt govt?
3) If UK intelligence detects known Dissident Republicans in the US would it be permissable for UK intelligence to execute them on US soil?
I'm not being inflammatory, but please explain.
Observations
I agree that it's a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, and considering your point 3, yes there would be an unholy row if the UK or any other country acted to execute someone on US soil.
However as it is likely the bin Laden had been set up in his compound by Pakistan's intelligence service, ISI, the US were never going to give them the chance to tip him off by going through the formality of informing the Pakistan government. I would also suggest that the US sees this as a parallel action to the use of Predator strikes, that have taken place in north west Pakistan. These are just as much a breach of a country's sovereignty.
Handing over that money struck me as bizarre. It seems that the purpose is for education with the hope that through educating Pakistani children they will be deflected from a course that leads to violent extremism. Yet the current government has criticised the previous administration's Contest counter terrorism strategy, and more specifically the Prevent aspect for partly being directed at education to stop people moving towards violent extremism.
I'm sure
as part of the deal whereby the US throws billions of dollars Pakistan's way in return for their open support of the Taliban was a deal that allowed the US to take a pop at Bin Laden.
If Pakistan doesn't like it they shouldn't have so willingly taken the money.
Osama dead?
Good.
Am I alone in feeling
Am I alone in feeling uncomfotable about this. The US killing a foreign person in a foreign country smacks of imperialism (dread word). Where does this end in the US enforcing is world view on the rest of the world?
Also to describe it as 'justice' seems a bit old wild west. No trial, no innocent until proven guilty is a road down which I personally don't want to go down.
Hugely concerning, yes because of the sovereignty question...
....the support from Pakistan security question, the lack of a trial and some sort of proof/evidence before execution etc. etc....did anyone seriously think he would be bought to trial ?
But then nobody seems to care about Predator drones stooging round Pakistan and elsewhere blowing unspecified 'insurgents' (i.e. whoever was unlucky enougn to get some 'intelligence' targeting them) to pieces on a regular basis.
Along with the helicopter gunships taking out wedding parties when they happen to hear 'happy fire' in the distance....it's less wild-west, more RoboCop. Oh, and wouldn't they just love to make the battlefield fully automated - no loss of American lives, therefore no one in the US will complain. Easy really. The basic problem they've been trying to overcome since Vietnam.
Can we have the
down arrow back?
'Justice'
I don't mourn him, but the repeated use of the word 'justice' by the President, Ed Miliband (snigger) and others, has left me perplexed today.
'Vengeance' yes - if you lost a loved one. Fine. I'd feel the same; I'd have wanted Bin Laden dead if he'd had a hand in murdering one of my relatives.
But 'justice' from the point of view of a 21st century democracy, it is not. Justice is delivered by trials, courts, judges - for better or worse, that's what we do. Or what we say we do.
If we define 'justice' as tracking our enemies down and killing them, then we reduce ourselves to their level.
Killing without trial is "justice"
For someone who was given the Nobel Peace Price two years ago. Nice to know.
I guess they (Obama and his people) assume no one will be stupid enough to openly appear to take Bin Laden´s side and question the government´s action in this. Or was it a direct order?
Maybe Obama will gain points before the election by being a bit more American/"American" in image? It could work.
I think...
...that you have a point. I also think that it's easy to sermonise when we ourselves will never have to make these kinds of decisions. Obama and his people had to make a call which would, one way or another, result in deaths.
If they'd captured him - and it seems that their orders were to capture him if he surrendered to them - he would've been brought back to the US, and a lengthy pretrial build-up would have begun. During which time, his fellow travellers have all the time in the world to plan something really unpleasant - a number of really unpleasant things.
I think - if you'll excuse the phrasing - that his refusal to surrender meant a dodged bullet for the rest of the world. Killing him quickly and dumping the body somewhere inaccessible will mean short term fury from some quarters, but you're not going to get the pressure cooker of a trial and then an inevitable execution. God, imagine the mess. Imagine the bombs.
God forbid I ever have to make a decision based on how I can most probably minimise loss of life, knowing that it's inevitable either way.
I think this was probably the least worst option.
I disagree.
Yes, the arguments about where and how the trial should take place are lengthy. But so they always are. Yes, the inevitable death sentence would have made him a martyr, but no more than he already is. Yes, his supporters would have a chance to plan something really nasty but, if they could've done so, wouldn't they have already tried? The intelligence gained from the compound raid will mean that a lot of jihaddists will be looking over their shoulders, waiting for the tap which will be coming. There is, of course, the argument, as made in a Times editorial, that Bin Laden being in captivity would have sparked a huge swathe of tit-for-tat kidnappings demanding his release. This argument is fatuous. Consider Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the real brain behind the September 11th attacks, the Number 2 of Al Qaeda (if you wish to believe that such a non-organisation can have a heirarchy) the man whose interrogations (under torture, not good) led, apparently, to the couriers who supplied the Bin Laden enclave and the man who, given his importance, should have triggered a swathe of such kidnappings.
I'm not aware of any.
The US is now starting to argue that the assassination was legal.
I suspect that, in fact, they intended to take him alive and that a trigger-happy SEAL slotted him. Because the US forces Shoot First Ask Questions Later Your Rifle Is Your Best Friend credo has, once again, resulted in the first bullet going into the target, through it and thereon into the right foot of the US government. The last time it happened, the victim was British hostage Linda Norgrove, killed by a grenade thrown by a loose cannon SEAL with previous history of such acts who wouldn't have been let anywhere near an SAS rescue team. This time, it's Osama Bin Laden and the US government spin machine has to go into overdrive.
I do not mourn Bin Laden's death, but the episode reflects poorly on the US government and her forces.
Justice
It is probably as close to justice as ever could be achieved. No one is likely to give him up, he was being well shielded and, lets be honest, even if the US could ever extradite him, the death penalty would have made him the martyr to end all martyrs.
The families that have had some kind of closure....
...I feel for.
The American joy that I'm watching on BBC and Sky I'm not so sure of.
That said, exactly how stupid can the 'most wanted man in the western world' be to hide out in a massive compound with NO evidence of mobile phones/computers/modern life etc.
Did he never watch 'The Sweeney' when he was leeching off this country?
Wouldn't you employ someone 24/7 just to use such technology and thwart your enemy.
'Thick' really doesn't begin to cover it.
Of course, we'll get a backlash, and probably within ten miles (maybe ten yards) of where I live.
What a sad, sad, poorly educated man.
In his memory I'm going to do what he should have done.
In this order.....gardening, cricket, rock 'n' roll and rugby league.
I'm watching Fox
And some of the commentary is a little bizarre. The anchor of the show I'm watching just introduced a segment by saying, "and now, here's some extraordinary footage of the moment news of bin Laden's death spread to Major League Baseball".
Was that because
rumours had started to spread before Obama's announcement and the commentators said that there was a strange atmosphere starting to spread around the stadium? I just saw a bit on the BBC and I found it interesting to see the germination of a rumour on national TV during the national past time.
*this is in no way an apology for Fox News or any of its subsidiaries*
It was a post-announcent reaction
The news was broadcast on the big screen in the stadium. What startled me was the anchor's words - they just struck me as bizarre.
William & Kate's honeymoon
was postponed.
Could this be because MI6 had wind that the Bin Laden business was about to kick off and now may not be a good time for the British Royal family to be airbourne?
I hope the Euphoria
is not premature. Yes the leader of Al Qaeda has been killed but it doesn't signal the end of the organisation itself. Rather, I suspect new recruits will be lining up to join the cause.It may be a good idea if we keep Gaddaffi alive for a few more weeks - 2 dead martyrs in quick succession might make for an uncomfortable year on the terrorism front.
Lest we get too carried away
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists
Notice:
OBL apparently not wanted for 9/11
Conspiracy thinking
Love the second-guessing going on here, conspiracy thinking, etc. You reckon Dubya would have let OBL live if he'd known? Or that Obama wouldn't have bagged him as soon as he was sure? Between leftist "truthers" (denying Al-Q's lucky absolute destruction of the twin towers) and the eye-swivelling right "birthers" (Obama can't be an American and his birth-certificate is a fake as it doesn't say "nigra"), I'd suggest politely that people spend too much time wanting to prove their pet prejudices (the Government/ Commies/ Zionists/ Kapitalizm) true.
Not forgetting the old saw that most things can be explained by
Cock-up or coincidence rather than conspiracy.
Hmmm
Well, had OBL been living in a faraway cave, out of sight and mind, then maybe. But it doesn't seem too conspiratorial and swivel-eyed to suggest that since he was living in Abbottabad, there were maybe just a few people in the Pakistani military and intelligence services who kind of knew where he was... Consequently, had the US tried to do anything in cooperation with its Pakistani "allies", the plans would have leaked. The whole notion of exactly where the bugger has been over the last ten years, and who knew, seems to me to be a valid question with ramifications for relations between Pakistan and the West rather than tinfoil-hat conspiratorialism.
(Also, in elastic distance news, BBC Radio 4 now saying Abbottabad just over 60 miles from Islamabad. See my earlier comment above.)
Fox News
appear to be showing this on a loop tape
Not one to miss an opportunity
Elton to release tribute single 'Sandals in the Bin'.
I'll get me robes..
Border?
- What Border? Song
really?
I thought it would have been Rocketed Man.
Osama And The Jets
Madman Across The Water
perhaps.
Or just a simple 'Your Bomb'
Jihad Songs Say So Much
Not to be left out
Robbie Robertson has also released a new version of Raghead Mama Raghead
'Sacrifice'
?
Time to re-issue
The Cure's Killing An Arab?
Jihad...
...seems to be the hardest word.
.
I bet someone who has been making
a programme 'Where Is Bin Laden?' for the 10th anniversairy of 9\11 isn't celebrating today
Here's a thought
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
--Martin Luther King, Jr
that first sentence
is not MLK - the quotes should begin at 'Returning'.
source: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-...
which leads into:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/anatomy-of-a-fake-qu...
interesting how quickly all this snowballs. None of this detracts from the genuine sentiment, but I find it fascinating the way the words of an American teacher based in Japan so easily become Dr King's.
Apologies
I am one of many who assumed the quote was correctly attributed to MLK but nonetheless it makes a good point.
He's not dead
he's on the moon with Shergar, Lord Lucan, Gerry Rafferty and Professor Brian Cox.
Gerry Rafferty?
Is he dead??
No,
he's on the moon with Shergar, Lord Lucan, Osama Bin Laden and Professor Brian Cox :-)
Surely that Mrs Brian Cox
as the Professor 'won't go there'
I do wonder.
Whilst the USA and UK have been, for some time, engaged in a policy of "decapitation" of insurgent, militant and terrorist groups, initially in Iraq and latterly in Afghanistan, the US using predator drones, the UK using deep-penetration SAS groups, the policy for high-value targets has always seemed to be to take them alive and subject them to a proper trial, the highest profile of these being Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. I presume his trial will commence when the Americans have finished waterboarding him in Guantanamo bay.
The assasination of Osama Bin Laden does the US no favours. I do wonder. Might trigger-happy US forces have yet again exceeded their orders on this mission? Bin Laden is now a martyr, and not the largely powerless aspirational figurehead he was. It may seem trite, but a quote from another bearded spiritual leader of rebel forces springs to mind.
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
No chance
Shoot to kill.
News over here is that it was an execution mission. There's no way on God's Green Earth they wanted a trial for him. That would be so full of all kinds of badness that two shots in the head solves a LOT of problems.
He was taken by surprise apparently
Didn't realise they take the Bins out on Bank Holiday Monday.
STOP PRESS!
Osama Bin Laden LIVES! At least Jim Corr thinks so...
http://www.jimcorr.com/
The Man Corr
call him by his name
Corr Blimey
I think Jim may need to up the dosage of his medication.