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Nirvana - am I missing something?

peterthecook's picture

When Nirvana were in their heydey, I was about 13. I wasn't much impressed with them at the time, as I just remember my older brother and his friends pretending to be depressed whilst listening to 'In Bloom'.

As the years danced gently by, I thought I'd grow to appreciate Nirvana, but I never have. In that time, I've come to love Leonard Cohen, the Pogues and Tom Waites, but my opinion of Nirvana has never wavered: they did about 4 good songs. Folk drone on aboout how dear old Kurt was the voice of a generation, but what generation were they? A bunch of whiney American kids, who think they invented being miserable?

There are people who don't like the Beatles, but their output was so widely varied that even in you don't like 'I am the Walrus', there's every chance you'll be fond of 'I'm Looking through You'. However, Nirvana's output was - to my ears - actually pretty one-dimensional.

Are there any other bands who you just don't get, for whatever reason?

0

Agree with you re Nirvana

Also The Smiths, The Cure
Also 99% of so-called 'indie' music

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stimpy | 30 March 2009 - 9:19am

Ditto about Nirvana

It is refreshing to hear someone criticise the 'Holy Grail' once in a while. My list of overratted artists of all time would be (top 5): - 1/ The Smiths; 2/ The Sex Pistols; 3/ Nirvana; 4/Oasis and 5/Any (c)rap.

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Llanfer | 30 March 2009 - 7:04pm

Your top two

could only be considered overrated in view of everything that's come since. They do sound quite similar to the people who copied them.

When they first appeared, they blew away everything you'd ever heard before.

I'm with you on 3 and 4 though.

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Captain Underpants | 31 March 2009 - 9:20am

The Sex Pistols didn't blow anything away chez Stimpy,

they just caused an outbreak of sniggering. They were a fashion-led cartoon, about as 'real' as The Monkees and playing second-rate pub-rock

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stimpy | 31 March 2009 - 11:25am

I disagree

FIRST rate pub rock!

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Captain Underpants | 31 March 2009 - 11:57am

Noooo...

The Brinsleys and The Feelgoods were FIRST rate pub-rock, Ver Pistols weren't that good

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stimpy | 31 March 2009 - 12:40pm

I was 14

I didn't go in pubs.

I went to Southend, though, and it were rubbish.

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Captain Underpants | 31 March 2009 - 1:44pm

Don´t underestimate The Monkees

The Monkees had a couple of kick ass tunes, tough. You have to give them that.

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Ola Claesson | 3 April 2009 - 9:22pm

Monkees

The Kirshner albums are packed full of good tunes and the later band-helmed ones are definitely interesting, though of variable quality.

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stimpy | 5 April 2009 - 12:48pm

Indeed

Never mind the furthermore, the plea is self defense.

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DogFacedBoy | 5 April 2009 - 6:02pm

Nirvana were just not that

Nirvana were just not that good, sorry. You are wrong about the smiths and possibly right about the cure.

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woodface | 31 March 2009 - 7:28pm

Nirvana were just not that

Nirvana were just not that good, sorry. You are wrong about the smiths and possibly right about the cure.

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woodface | 31 March 2009 - 7:28pm

Nirvana were just not that

Nirvana were just not that good, sorry. You are wrong about the smiths and possibly right about the cure.

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woodface | 31 March 2009 - 7:28pm

You're once, twice,

three times a postin'......

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DogFacedBoy | 1 April 2009 - 1:05am

Sorry, I just don't know how

Sorry, I just don't know how that happened, i only meant to reply once.

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woodface | 2 April 2009 - 8:49pm

Oasis.

U2,The Fall, Jesus & Mary chain. Just don't like them.

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pedr0 | 30 March 2009 - 9:37am

agreed

I really tried to get into the Jesus and Mary Chain, but they were trying so hard to be cool I just couldn't take them seriously.

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 9:40am

Jesus and Mary Chain

I use to play the 21 Singles compilation a lot. Then I got bored of it. About four months ago I tried to listen to it again. The songs from the debut are just painful. I gave up about five songs in. I have zero plans to return to it any time in the next five years.

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LOUDspeaker | 30 March 2009 - 10:56am

With You

Nirvana didn't register with me at all and I was living in America at the time, it's the same thing for me with 99% of Radiohead and Pink Floyd. Still, after trying, Zappa and Beefheart are just noise.

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Pat Carty | 30 March 2009 - 9:38am

Nah you've dropped a bollock there

Nirvana were phenomenal. Great pop song writing wired up to the most raw, elemental, visceral music imaginable. Give In Utero, or the live album a spin. Unplugged revealed even more depth, showing that they were pretty far from one-dimensional. Cobain was also a fantastic singer and better at delivering sarcasm than anyone I can think of other than Dylan.

In terms of bands I just don't get - it's got to be Pink Floyd. Apart from Breathe, they just sound like protracted Dire Straits songs to me - all a bit Ford Mondeo

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Chimney Singing... | 30 March 2009 - 10:55am

Be honest, the pixies were

Be honest, the pixies were better and Nirvana (well cobain) pretty much admitted he ripped them off. Unfortunately Frank Black looked like a dustman....

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woodface | 2 April 2009 - 8:53pm

Frank Black

Is it possible that The Pixies would have made it bigger if their singer hadn´t looked (and still does)like an extra from The Cuckoo´s Nest?

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Ola Claesson | 3 April 2009 - 9:28pm

Not an extra Ola...

...but Chief Bromden himself- as played by generously proportioned Mike McShane!

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Steerpike | 3 April 2009 - 9:35pm

The Pixies were better than almost anything on the planet!

So that doesn't really damn Nirvana. Yes Cobain admitted lifting one riff, but Nirvana's influences were diverse - and they were certainly a lot heavier than the Pixies!

I prefered Mudhoney at the time but I do appreciate Nirvana - they were stunningly well-suited to one another as musicians, and their sound moves me in the same way, say, early Black Sabbath does. It hits those low down and grim parts of the psyche direct, but also the thrill centres. If you are one of those people who really likes to THINK ABOUT everything you listen to, and probably like the Divine Comedy, then they're not for you. But overrated? No.

Having said that, there is a lot to think about. Cobain's lyrics are rich with wordplay and, as another poster has pointed out, brilliant sarcasm.

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Joe Muggs | 4 April 2009 - 9:55pm

what he said

and this is from somone who likes Nirvana, Pixies and the the Divine Comedy - ain't it crazy?

say what you like about Nirvana (and people have) - at least they're not Pearl Jam. Those deadly earnestly dull muso fretwankers have outlived their welcome by a decade or two.

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DogFacedBoy | 5 April 2009 - 6:06pm

Pearl Jam

Always preferred them to Nirvana, but then I see 'muso' as a compliment rather than an insult :-)

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stimpy | 5 April 2009 - 6:07pm

I posted this elsewhere:

Nirvana

I didn't get it. Massive band and leaders of a whole movement. Just sounding like poorly recorded sludgy heavy metal of no great distinction. I watched a Making Of Nevermind doc and couldn't see what was so special about the band.

Watched the doc again and a critic (from Rolling Stone magazine?) said, "It was all about melody. Everything was in the service of the melody. The lyrics didn't really meaning anything. It was just the way they sounded that mattered. Hidden underneath the Black Sabbath guitars are pop songs. Proper pop songs with proper catchy, hummable melodies."

This was like a bullet to my brain. Listening to them again I specifically paid attention to the ebb and flow of the melody. And the songs really came together for me. Now the band made sense. It's a pop band with a heavy metal sound. Brilliant.

I'm still not convinced by Nevermind, but the self titled Best Of is sequenced like an album, with a real flow and style to it that I love. If you want to give them another chance try the Best Of. Or watch a music video on YouTube and hum along to it.

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LOUDspeaker | 30 March 2009 - 10:58am

quiet

LOUD

quiet

LOUD

quiet

LOUD

quiet

LOUD.

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eddie g | 30 March 2009 - 11:10am

You forgot to put in the

SHOUTING

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Leedsboy | 30 March 2009 - 2:03pm

Ah but what shouting it was


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Chimney Singing... | 30 March 2009 - 2:07pm

Nirvana....

I tried, dear Lord I tried...21 at the time. Maybe I was 5 or 6 years too old? Morrissey and Curtis were, and still are, my chosen purveyors of misery.

So...Nirvana....Nothing there, nope, nada, zilch. Nothing groundbreaking, nothing that hadn't been done before, only better. Bleach - rubbish. Nevermind - sheened up rubbish. In Utero - better....I just don't get it or see just why they have been so influential.

Whiny vocals, transparent plagiarism and a dollop of self indulgence. I realise this is also a template for Oasis' entire career but at least Oasis gave us the rebirth of Ocean Colour Scene and The La's. From Nirvana you can draw a direct line to Nickelback. Ipso Facto!

Is this what hair metal died for? Would we really prefer to see moping greasy haired men in plaid shirts and ripped jeans instead of David Coverdale in lipstick and spandex?

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Six Dog | 30 March 2009 - 11:11am

Unpopular but honest

I don't get Fairport Convention,sorry folks, sounds like a load of Geography teachers at a Harvest festival.
Also
Nick Cave
And any American "Hair Metal" band:Motley Crue,Cinderella,Poison etc.
Nirvana Unplugged is a fine album ,full off raw emotion and Soul.

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Sour Crout | 30 March 2009 - 11:16am

Fairport

In my case it depends on the era of the band. The 1969 version with Thompson & Denny were fantastic and the records still sound great. But I have little interest in much of the traditional folk that has kept the various guises of the band going since

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Michaelincognito | 30 March 2009 - 1:18pm

Likewise...

...It all stops at Full House for me. (Except for "House Full", natch).

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nicktf | 30 March 2009 - 7:41pm

Yes, but the thing is Paul...

...it IS "a lot of geography teachers at a harvest festival". Or at least that's what their Cropredy do is in August - and as long as you expect that, you'll have a pleasant enough weekend (though it is getting a bit creaky and embarrassing with all these tribute acts they've been booking for midway through the bill in recent years; I suspect I was at my last one ever a couple of years back...)

But I agree with the Full House cut-off point that others suggest. Even if you're not too wild about RT - as I'm not (says he, ducking from the hail of shoes thrown instinctively in his direction by the massive) - it's still possible to find Full House (and indeed House Full, the live LP of that line-up) intoxicating, magical stuff. There's a nice 2CD best-of covering their Island period (up to 1975) - 'Meet On The Ledge' I think its called. That's all most people should need - certainly, if you're dipping your toe in (and it sounds like you won't be) that's the one to go for...

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Colin H | 30 March 2009 - 9:44pm

No. I 'get' everyone.

It's not easy being omniscient.

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Mr Fade | 30 March 2009 - 11:27am

some fair points, but...

The most annoying thing about Nirvana is the whole 'defined a movement'/ 'spokesman of a generation' nonsense. Hitler could probably have a fair claim to that too, and he had several hits in Germany, albeit on wax cylinder.

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 11:56am

Godwin's!

You lose!

Reductio ad Hitlerum - it doesn't take long, does it?

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Captain Underpants | 30 March 2009 - 2:10pm

Well...

Kurt Cobain always cited slightly obscure bands as influences, and it's a well-known fact that Hitler was one of his favourite singers. Kurt was also particularly fond of the little-heard combo Herman Goering and the Brownshirts, whose catchy melodies did much to raise the spirits of Wartime Germany.

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 2:19pm

Good point

If Cobain was the spokesman of a generation they must surely be fucked. "An albino, my libido" isn´t exactly "look out kid it´s something you did, god knows when but you´re doing it again", is it?

I wish I belonged to Bob´s generation, altough I would then be older than my mother.

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Ola Claesson | 3 April 2009 - 9:35pm

Nirvana

I liked the first album, very sixties, in a poppy way, and so very British. Of the later albums, I think I prefer 'Local Anaesthetic', which is pretty much a Campbell-Lyons solo album. Best album cover has to go to 'All Of Us', which at the time seemed very dark and threatening. I also like the late compilation called 'Songs Of Love And Hate', but it's only available on CD as an expensive Japanese mini-LP sleeve edition.

What's that? Seattle? Never heard of them. Surely they weren't insular and ignorant enough to even steal the band name? You're kidding me. Grubby little oiks.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 30 March 2009 - 1:04pm

Coffee/Keyboard interface ahoy!

I'd been trying to think of a witty post about the 'proper' Nirvana but you beat me to it :-)

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stimpy | 30 March 2009 - 1:06pm

Nirvana

obviously a 'Rainbow Chaser' staying in 'Pentecost Hotel'

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Badlands | 18 April 2009 - 7:57pm

Didjn't Hitler

have one of the 1st picture discs. Awful sound quality thou - all heil end and no oompah

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DogFacedBoy | 30 March 2009 - 1:18pm

The Cobain/Hitler connection refuses to die

Apparently...

Picture discs debuted in the early 1930s, when various materials were used experimentally as gimmicks or for advertising. These early picture discs were simply a sheet of thin vinyl film which was placed over a thick paper print and then pressed with the grooves and had very poor sound quality.

Adolf Hitler even released a 7" picture disc of this type with one of his speeches. Known as the Patria (Fatherland) picture disc, the obverse bears an image of Hitler giving a speech and has a recording of both a speech by Hitler and also Party Member Hans Hinkel. The reverse bears a hand holding a swastika flag and the Carl Woitschach (1933 — Telefunken A 1431) recording In Dem Kampf um die Heimat - Faschistenmarsch. The follow-up, Komm So Wie du Bist, had an acoustic version of Lithium on the B-Side.

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 2:52pm

Flaming Lips

Decemberists
Arcade Fire
Devendra Banhart
All claptrap and codswallop.

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Retropath2 | 30 March 2009 - 2:24pm

Where's The Fire?

Arcade Fire - Rubbish.

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Pat Carty | 30 March 2009 - 3:33pm

True dat

Rebellion is a good song but the rest is terrible... I don't understand why everyone uses words like 'celebratory' and 'joyous' when what they mean is 'pompous', 'dour' and 'hectoring'

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Chimney Singing... | 30 March 2009 - 3:57pm

Another good song

"My Body Is A Cage" from album two is great. Give that track another shot.

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LOUDspeaker | 31 March 2009 - 10:13am

And did I mention the Kings of Leon?

Overated derivative nonsense. How come the Black Keys, with whom I always confuse them, get half the acclaim?
And the Killers? Are they so desperate in Utah that they have to exhume all those influences? Mika backed by Gary Numan, with over-egged additional guitar, say I. (There, didn't even mention that vile Mercury fella, god rest his etc etc)

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Retropath2 | 31 March 2009 - 7:59am

very good list

can I also add

Sufjan Stevens
The Hold Steady
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - although Karen O has a certain, um, something

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Sheev | 3 April 2009 - 1:40pm

Whoah there ...

... I'm sorry but I must intervene. Sufjan Steven's Illinois is the best album in the last 10 years - bar none!

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Steerpike | 3 April 2009 - 9:39pm

I'll get my coat

I don't get....
nearly all of Dylan, Springsteen, Joni, post-Syd Floyd, Notorious Byrd Brothers, Nick Cave, The Stone Roses, Oasis, Kid A and The Clash.

I don't mind Nirvana, but I don't get why they are so revered.

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theListener | 30 March 2009 - 2:36pm

This is scary, now...

With the possible exception of Joni I agree with your list entirely Mr/Ms Listener - assuming, of course, you're taking about the stodgy country-rock Notorious Byrd Brothers and not the two arch villains in Herge's 'Secret Of The Unicorn'? Those guys are icons, of course!

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Colin H | 30 March 2009 - 9:48pm

Never got The Smiths

Which kind of puzzled me, since I was the right age and liked most of the other bands that my Smiths-loving friends liked.

I just thought (still do) they were dull, whiney and irritating. In fact, what Peterthecook said about Nirvana applies very well to The Smiths, as far as I'm concerned.

And I have to agree with Retropath2's list above. Hmm, most young musicians with bumfluff beards are usually crap as well. But I digress.

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DrHank | 30 March 2009 - 3:46pm

Used to like the Smiths?

It definitely seems to be an issue that some people seem to outgrow the Smiths. Like a lot of folk, I had something of a Smiths phase; when you're 19 and revelling in the idea of being a glorious failure, they're the perfect band. I look back on that time with a bit of bemusement now, and it seems strangely irrelevant, whereas Leonard Cohen seems more and more relevant to me.

There are still some songs I like, but when people tell me - with a perfectly straight face - that Shakespeare's Sister is as good as Jumping Jack Flash, it leaves me mystified. It's that ridiculous level of devotion to Morrissey that baffles many: He's singing about the same things now as when he was in his 20s - a curious man-child in a woe is me world. I just wish he'd changed and grown a wee bit.

I would always defend Mozza on the grounds that he is - or at least has been - interesting, but I'd just love to hear Stuart Maconie savagely criticise him...just once! Go on, Stu.

Anyone else feel they've outgrown the Smiths?

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 4:12pm

Not as far as I'm concerned

I find they get even better with age. When I was young I used to enjoy the melancholic aspect but nowadays I hear nothing but the humour, accompanied by an imaginative, exciting rock and roll band. They produced brilliant music and they make me laugh out loud

I loved them when i was 15 and my admiration grows ever greater with every day that passes.

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Chimney Singing... | 30 March 2009 - 4:20pm

Fair enough, but...

Is that you, Maconie?

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peterthecook | 30 March 2009 - 4:22pm

I've grown into them.

Couldn't stand them in my 30s, now I rather like them, warming slowly even to solo Moz.
Funny old world!

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Retropath2 | 30 March 2009 - 5:08pm

Navarna, as Beavis and Butthead called them

I find almost all of Nirvana's output to be negligible. With three stellar exceptions: Teen Spirit, Heart-Shaped Box, and Where Did You Sleep Last Night. For my money, Kurt's performance on Where Did You Sleep is not only his best moment ever, but it's the definitive take on that song, as he renders it in hauntingly agonized banshee wail. The earlier (Leadbelly, Dock Boggs, etc.) versions were all dark implied threat while Kurt's has an added vulnerability and anguish that make it transcendent. I think it says something that his finest moment is a cover of an old folk song rather than one of his own compositions.

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scooter | 30 March 2009 - 5:17pm

i haven't read many of the posts

because isn't this just 'i hate (insert band name)', 'nah, bollox, i think they're great'

i mean, i could list thousands of bands i don't like - doesn't mean they're crap, just means i don' like 'em.

nirvana - yep, did some good stuff (heart shaped box) did some rubbish (first album's not great)

now tell me a band of whom the 'yeah, did some good stuff, did some not so good stuff' statement cannot, objectively, be made, and i'll call you a liar.

(not to your face, like...)

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colsafc | 30 March 2009 - 5:57pm

I saw them at the Kilburn National in 1991...

and at the time I thought they were bloody excellent. There was such a buzz going round the room that night; people were expecting a lot and weren't disappointed.

However I feel their music hasn't aged particularly well... the only album I still play is the MTV Unplugged one. I really like that... stripped of the wall of noise guitars the fragility in Kurt Cobain's voice really came through.

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Patrick Crowther | 30 March 2009 - 6:00pm

If that's the performance I saw on telly once,

I will admit to having been rather taken by the performance of Pennyroyal Tea, which was touchingly rendered.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 30 March 2009 - 6:32pm

Fleet Foxes..

... sound like a group of Young Christians who have formed a musical society to me.

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Prestonia | 30 March 2009 - 8:36pm

Actually..

.. make that Trendy Vicars. They even look the part..

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Prestonia | 30 March 2009 - 8:39pm

Do trendy vicars ....

all grow pubic beards too ?

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Hot Cider | 30 March 2009 - 9:07pm

Perhaps overstating the obvious...

...but let's add Madonna to the list. Personally, I've always loathed her and her music. (Posters, please bear in mind, too, that this remark is from an urban gay male exactly the same age as the old hag.)

As for Nirvana, I agree there too, though without the vehemence I reserve for Madonna. It was some years ago now that Joni Mitchell (a fearless iconoclast if ever there was one) began to question this very notion of Kurt Cobain being the voice of a generation and lamenting what this seemed to indicate.

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geocaplan | 30 March 2009 - 10:08pm

Arctic Monkeys

I'm going to add the Arctic Monkeys to the list, as I just cannot stand them. Shouty vocals, the perception that they're somehow great lyricists because they're not Noel Gallagher and the very fact that the media seems to wet its collective trousers with each new release. At best, they're ok, and they serve to illustrate just what a thin period we're in musically.

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peterthecook | 31 March 2009 - 9:00am

At the risk of disagreeing with everything you say!

Lyrically the Arctic Monkeys are superb though

'The View From The Afternoon'

"And she won’t be surprised and she won't be shocked
When she’s pressed the star after she's pressed unlock
And there’s verse and chapter sat in her inbox
And all that it says is that you've drank a lot
You can pour your heart out around 3 o clock
When the 2 for 1's undone the writers block.
You can pour your heart out but her reasoning will block
Owt you send her after nine o'clock"

'Fake Tales of San Francisco'

Fake Tales of San Francisco
Echo through the air
And there's a few bored faces in the back
All wishing they weren't there
And as the microphone squeaks
A young girl's telephone beeps
Yeah she's dashing for the exit
And she's running to the streets outside
"Oh you've saved me," she screams down the line
"The band aren't very good"
And I'm not having a nice time."
Yeah but his bird thinks it's amazing, though
So all that's left
Is the proof that love's not only blind but deaf
He talks of San Francisco, he's from Hunter's Bar
I don't quite know the distance
But I'm sure thats far
Yeah I'm sure thats pretty far
And yeah, I'd love to tell you all of my problem
You're not from New York City, you're from Rotherham
So get off the bandwagon, and put down the handbook
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

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Chimney Singing... | 31 March 2009 - 12:41pm

errr...not really

If you're 13 and drinking a WKD, I see your point. For anyone over the age of 21, it loses a wee bit in translation - They'll probably look a bit daft singing that when they're 25, let alone 40. But that's probably the point, and me being a crusty 30 yr old, I'll stick with:

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows

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peterthecook | 31 March 2009 - 1:33pm

Errr

I'm 31...maybe I should get out less

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Chimney Singing... | 31 March 2009 - 1:56pm

Ha ha

fair point; I was born aged 47, so the Arctic Monkeys keep me old.

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peterthecook | 31 March 2009 - 1:59pm

I'm 46

But can appreciate Arctic Monkey' lyrics, even though expressed in the lingo of the youth. They have a certain wit, sharpness of observation, and universality of subject, at times, for example - 'When The Sun Goes Down', though to be fair they do not measure up to 'Everybody Knows', but then whose lyrics do, since the Cohen song has some of best ever written? Nevertheless, they are pretty good. I can enjoy quality lyric writing, even if it's by or about people of different age group, involved in activities I do not participate in, though may have once, in a dim and distant (well not that distant actually) past life.

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Sven Garlic | 31 March 2009 - 3:11pm

Aren't the Arctic Monkeys just

The Streets de nos jours?

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stimpy | 31 March 2009 - 3:02pm

No

...in that they bear repeated listening and aren't all the yoof binge drinking, not by any means.

Also - why is everyone saying 'de nos jours' these days? It's becoming almost as much of a pest as zeitgeist...

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Chimney Singing... | 31 March 2009 - 3:23pm

Oddly enough...

I can happily still listen to The Streets first album. The rest don't have the same naive charm though.

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stimpy | 31 March 2009 - 3:38pm

The Streets.

Amusing and charming the first time you hear it. Wears off more rapidly than cheap speed on repeated listens. Bit like The Barron Knights really.

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Vulpes Vulpes | 31 March 2009 - 7:50pm

I´ve looked at life from both sides now, or at least 1,5 sides

But Arctic Monkeys are still in their diapers and Leonard is 573, so that´s a bit unfair. I love them both and I´m somewhere in the middle.

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Ola Claesson | 3 April 2009 - 11:50pm

So wrong

They are brilliant, far ahead of their contempories.

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woodface | 2 April 2009 - 8:57pm

I like the Tweenies' songs for exactly the same reason...

"Sweets for my breakfast, sweets for my lunch, sweets for my supper too. Round ones, square ones, chocolatey eclair ones, all for me to chew." - The Tweenies

Come on, sing it in a Sheffield accent with the amp turned up to 11, and that's a pretty daring satire of childhood obesity.

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peterthecook | 31 March 2009 - 3:00pm

You're right of course

That's all their lyrics amount to. What a fool I've been.

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Sven Garlic | 31 March 2009 - 3:11pm

apologies, but...

At 46, surely you should be listening to something else? I'm sure you're delicious and built like a racing snake, but aren't some songs for kids? That's not to necessarily denigrate it; it's simple fact. The world of 'inboxes', 'WKD' and 'ringtones' is surely a youth-culture issue, isn't it?

I apologise for the flippancy of my initial reply; I am obviously crusty, and your opinion is the same as pretty much all my friends!

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peterthecook | 31 March 2009 - 3:30pm

Dear crusty

Flippancy and mockery is fine by me, if it's primarily for humourous reasons - given into temptation myself a few times. I found your reply quite amusing but not really an accurate parody, that's all. As for my resemblance to a snake - maybe one that's just swallowed some form of rodent (small vole I like to think), leading to a certain rotundity. The delicious part is certainly true though.

This issue about being too old for some pop came up before. I dunno, it all comes at you - old and new, and either it floats your boat or it doesn't. I don't worry about whether I maybe shouldn't listen. The old music (whether punk or prog or whatever) us old gits play was mostly originally either for teenagers or twenty somethings, primarily, so you could also argue it's a bit absurd for us to still like a lot of that stuff into our forties and beyond. And of course much new music is still mainly influenced by that old music so it's not surprising we respond favourably sometimes, though find the new lacking in comparison, as we measure it against the very best of last 40 years or so, like 'Everybody Knows'. I don't see any reason why new bands comprised of young folk shouldn't come up with music that appeals to chaps of my advanced years though. It's all part of the same continuum really. If I think it's all too young for me I better give up all pop except the likes of John Martyn and laughing Len, God forbid.

Anyway I think Arctic Monkeys lyrics gain something by being in the language of the youth - there can be a certain poetry in that, though I'm finding it hard to see it in the examples above, I must confess. In fact I don't really listen to them much now, got tired of the first album I own. The music lacks the mystery of a great melody you can't quite pin down, or any nuance and subtlety needed for long term repeat listening, although if one of their hits comes on the radio I still get enjoyment from it. I was only really speaking up for the lyrics, in support of the Chimney Singing lady.

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Sven Garlic | 31 March 2009 - 7:26pm

The fruit of my youth is rotting on the vine...

You make some excellent points here; perhaps I'm just grumbling as my youth tumbles away! It's interesting that the generation gap seems to be narrowing somewhat, with 50 yr olds in trainers and jeans, and the teen/adult fusion of celebs like Jonathan Ross. I'd be interested to know how others feel about this.

The best thing about this blog is that people such as yourself are capable of arguing their point with subtlety and eloquence; I agree that the Artic Monkeys don't have, as you put it, a certain mystery of a great melody. I think I find them a bit shouty!

I enjoyed reading your response, and if you're ever near Manchester, there's a pint with your name on it!

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peterthecook | 1 April 2009 - 9:31am

Thanks for your kind words

I know what you mean about the trend for maintaining adolescence long after those years have passed. Jeans and trainers is one thing (well two things, I suppose), and there are good things about it (still enjoying pop of now among other more profound aspects), but one negative result is the keeping up of the behaviour and mindset of that age, among some.

I look forward to that pint!

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Sven Garlic | 1 April 2009 - 12:27pm

3 things

Unless you have but one leg.

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Retropath2 | 1 April 2009 - 12:34pm

NIrvana Monkeys

I saw Nirvana play in Melbourne years ago and thought they were perhaps the dullest live act I had ever seen. Kurt stood motionless at the mike for the whole show and the whole set seemed like an endless drone. I was right pissed off - I was expecting the second coming.Then I saw was the Arctic Monkeys set at this year's Big Day Out Festival, and a new title holder emerged. Thank god Neil Young came on after and returned some credibility to the evening. To be fair though, I saw the Arctic Monkeys on their first Australian tour in a much smaller venue and they were pretty good, but they have obviously burnt out or fallen prey to megastar ennui.

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kcgrady | 31 March 2009 - 3:34pm

They were ordinary..

..and I hold them directly responsible for all the spoilt brat music that followed in their wake.

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shane pacey | 1 April 2009 - 3:24am

oh, be fair

That´s like blaming The Beatles for Oasis.

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Ola Claesson | 3 April 2009 - 9:49pm

No..

..I blame The Ispiral Carpets for them.

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shane pacey | 10 April 2009 - 3:16pm

I only got them after Kurt died

which isn't to say that Kurt dying made me like them, just that I didn't care before but have come to love the shoutiness of much of what they did - there's nothing wrong with a bit of shouting, though I am not sure that they were the voice of a generation since I am supposed to be that generation and I was not nearly so depressed, in retrospect, as I thought I was. And the generation they were meant to represent were all 15 years younger than them.

Post Kurt's death, of course, we got the Foo Fighters, who everyone says are great but, let's face it, they're not, any more than the Chilli Peppers are. They are alright, but distinctly average I'd say.

I am mystified by people loving the Smiths/Morrissey, but not nearly so mystified as I am by people who insist that Pink Floyd were better WITH Syd Barrett. Maybe you had to be there or something but I have to say that a lot of it sounds like insufferable twaddle to someone who only discovered Pink Floyd when they first saw The Wall.

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Batman2504 | 2 April 2009 - 12:44pm

The Rolling Stones....I still don't get them

A desperately average band borrowing heavily from a limited number of sources, who have not produced anything half decent since the early 70s. Worse than that, they continue to inflict themselves upon us when they are old enough to know better. They are now a cabaret act and a sad joke. Give up.

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Chrisbarra | 2 April 2009 - 4:14pm

Overrated bands - where do I begin...

Well, for a start I agree about Nirvana - what a load of nonsense, plus most of Queen is rubbish, ditto Radiohead (oh alright, I'll allow The Bends I suppose), U2, UB40, Dire Straits. All mega-million sellers. Then you get to the real sacred cows - Nick Cave & Tom Waits - some great moments, but overall hugely over-rated. Recent acts that deserve being taken down a peg or two include The Killers & Razorlight. I could probably go on all night but that'll do for now!

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Jeremy | 2 April 2009 - 7:46pm

re. Tom Waits

I love Tom Waits, but sometimes you have to put up with quite a bit of crap to get to the good stuff. I can't remember who said it, but the theory is that you put up with 8 dodgy tracks on a Tom Waits album because the other two tracks will be amazing; there's some truth in that.

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peterthecook | 3 April 2009 - 9:34am

Genius spawns excellence spawns mediocrity

If you go back far enough in any artistic movement, you will find someone who definitely had the genius in the room, but no-one really got it. Musically we're probably talking about someone like Robert Johnson. Then there are people who latch onto it and adapt it into something which is both technically excellent and highly listenable. Sticking with the blues I might suggest Muddy Waters. Then the cat's out of the bag and other people with less imagination start copying it right, left and centre, and you end up with an ocean of crap that (sorry, here it comes...) muddies the waters of how good it was at first. Gary Moore, for example.

Nirvana were good musicians who adapted a lot of inspirational stuff from the obscurity of European heavy metal and the oddity of David Bowie, put into to simple pop-song structures and did it very well indeed (though not particularly to my taste). Then they became much copied, and the copyists undid the magic, to some extent.

Listeners' and critics' main mistake is to imagine that anything in popular music is actually new. But the fact is, like it or not, Nirvana, Radiohead, U2, you name it - are all making variations on the 3 minute pop song, just like everyone else.

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AndrewtheWood | 3 April 2009 - 1:25pm

Franz Ferdinand

Don't get them at all, find them rather calculating and cold. Got the first lp, and thought it rather dull, but was willing to be proved wrong, Second one confirmed it though.

There is just something about there forced artiness that grates on me

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Mint | 5 April 2009 - 6:29pm

Franz

They perfected the art of creating songs that sound better on the radio than they do on the album they are meant to be part of. Owning their music is not needed. They get plenty of airplay and that's all you need.

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LOUDspeaker | 13 April 2009 - 11:05am
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