Entertainment For Lively Minds
New season, new football thread
Two things:
Is the credit crunch finally going to hit attendances this season? I ask because of two emails I received last week. The first was from Arsenal telling me that tickets for the home game against Portsmouth are now on general sale (no membership required at all). I can't remember a Saturday afternoon Arsenal league game going on general sale for a long time.
And similarly, an email arrived from Fulham, to tell me that anyone could now buy tickets for the home game against Chelsea. That's a local derby against star-studded Chelsea, and it hasn't sold out. Very unusual.
Second point, ITV1 is showing on Wednesday evening, for two and a half prime time hours, Panathinaikos v Athletico Madrid.
Why??? What bizarre contract has ITV signed with UEFA which says they have to show that on their main channel? ITV4, maybe, but ITV1?
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Maybe its because we are fed up
of the overpaid prima donnas who don't give a shit about the fans that pay their wages. I speak as a season ticket holder at Birmingham City - we dont sell out and our capacity is fairly meagre - around 30,000 but the fans are predominantly working class. They have little in common with the film star lifestyle of the fancy dan premier players. I am not singling out Joleon Lescott but as an example he signed a 4 year contract with Everton not even a year ago but now doesnt want to honour this same contract. If Everton kicked him out of the club he would rightly expect them to honour the contract but not it seems when the boot is on the other foot. Given that supporters could possibly renew their season tickets on the basis of who will be playing for their team in the current year it is now surprise they could feel aggrieved at the situation. The subject is complex and there are many contributing factors most likely not related to the credit crunch. For example value for money - I could play golf for about half the cost of a premier league match. I would get more than twice the length of time of enjoyment. Another problem is TV saturation and a feeling that Football is dictated to by the TV companies - one week into the season and five of my teams fixtures have had either the time or date altered to fit in with TV schedules.It is no surprise they can dictate in this way given the amount of revenue they generate for teams to overspend on over hyped players. Players they would not be able to buy if they were reliant solely on gate receipts. We have now reached the sad situation where clubs dont need fans and sadly fans dont need football.
Contracts
If you were attracted to a better/more desirable position in your line of work, you would be perfectly at liberty to tender your resignation from your current post and move on, regardless of how long you had been there. Why should a footballer have different/higher moral obligations to the rest of us?
If they were a bit more honest!
I've no problem with that. What gets on my tits is the kissing of the badge while at the same time angling a better deal with another club.
What makes it worse is when they piss off to the club's hated rivals.
Only if you have a stipulated notice period
Footballers don't have normal employment contracts - they sign up for a fixed term. This protects them as much as restricts them as it means a club can't simply give an injured player 3 months' notice that they are terminating their contract.
I agree that footballers should be allowed to say they want to leave before the end of a contract, but they shouldn't whinge when they don't necessarily get their own way immediately.
please please let me get what i want
are you contracted to your employer?
Big 4 Fatigue
Even as a ManU fan (since 1984, so not a glory hunter!) I am starting to get bored with the relentless dominance of the Big 4. I know that Utd have prospered more than most from the avalanche of money into the game, but I do miss the times when the competition was more even.
I'm not harking back to some mythical golden age when the league title went to a different team every year - obviously Liverpool dominated in the 80s even without massive financial superiority - but it's not so long ago that the rest of the pack had genuine title hopes, rather than being reduced to trying to feed on the scraps from the top table. For instance, when Utd won the first premier league title in 1993, they were in a three-way race with Aston Villa and Norwich! That just couldn't happen now. The nearest we've had in recent years was Villa themselves clawing their way into third place halfway through last season, before their lack of squad depth told in the latter stages and they faded away.
It occurred to me the other
It occurred to me the other day that the last Premiership game I went to was in 1996. QPR at Nottm. Forest....lost 3-0.
I couldn't imagine ever going to one again, frankly, such is the predictable nature of the 'competition' today.
I normally now go to non-league or even rugby, but tonight I'll be at Barnet v. Morecambe.
The very fact that they'll be only about 1,600 people there is also a draw. It's also only £13 and I can stand.
And there's a reasonable McMullan's pub a minute from the ground.
Who'd want to be one of the Arsenal/Tottenham hoards?
When I see them on the No. 34 I feel sorry for them!
What else would they show?
I would imagine that the ITV contract allows them to show the matches on any of their channels or not show them at all. Having paid up they will be wanting to get as many viewers as possible to attract advertisers. I assume that they think they'll get more viewers for a football match than for anything else they may be able to offer and when you see the quality of their other programmes I think they may have a point! On top of that, now they've moved Corrie out of the way, the Autumn/Winter Wednesday night slot is available for football to be on regularly so I guess they may be trying to get us into the habit. I may watch it but I don't know if I can stand the commentary.
Too expensive
I stopped watching Bolton years ago, as I didn't consider paying £25 to go to a home game good value for money (living in London didn't help either).
I'm now living in Germany and -- with the possible exception of FC Bayern -- the whole fan experience is just so much better. I watch my local 3. Bundesliga club (Unterhaching, which is on the edge of Munich) every other Saturday. I bought a season ticket this year that cost €120 (which works out at about €6 per game). I can stand up, have a laugh, drink beer and eat bratwurst. You can even talk to the players sometimes after the match.
Even at big clubs, such as Dortmund, I've only paid €12 on the door.
Non League
As a thirty year season ticket holder at Millwall I got priced out a few years back and rather than watch the cheating prima donnas of the Premiership on tv I started going regularly to my local non league side.Two promotions later we have gone from the Kent league to the Ryman's Premier.I know and have a beer with the Chairman the Manager and the players,and it is a wonderfull family atmosphere (our home gates are approx 170)
I shall be getting a season ticket tonight at our first home game for £125 and will enjoy every minute of the season.
I would implore anyone who thinks supporting football means getting a sky tv package to get off their bums and take a stroll down their local team on a saturday.It's like going back in time.No diving or cheating just good honest lads enjoying the game.
My sentiments exactly ...
But it's a shame you have to pay the same amount to watch (I think) seventh-tier football as I do to watch third-tier football.
Works out
About £5.50 a game.Who are you watching for that? You are very lucky.Is that a reduced ticket price?
Also though it's not neccessarily about the level you are watching.I can honestly say I would rather watch the Ryman's premier than the other premier. There's an honesty that has been lost elsewhere.
Should have linked to my previous post
I'm now watching third-division German football (SpVgg Unterhaching), as I moved to Munich two years ago. The German clubs treat their fans far better than the British clubs.
But...
If they were selling out their ground every week would they still be charging that? Isn't it just supply and demand really?
In my experience
The German clubs seem to have multi-tiered pricing policies. Bear in mind that you can still stand up at league games at many grounds. At my club, it probably costs nearer €20 for a seat (with a roof), but you can stand up on an open terrace for €9 (€6 if you buy a season ticket).
I've been to games at Dortmund (who get big crowds and the stadium is usually fairly full), but I've still been able to stand up for about €12.
Even at the evil FC Bayern, the average seat is around €25-35; you can pay that in the second-tier in England.
Mixed Feelings
My only problem with lower and non-league football is that it's basically, well, crap. And I say this as a former season ticket holder at one league club (Northampton Town) and three non-league sides (Hounslow Town, Hendon FC and Leyton Wingate).
I suspect it's why England home games are packed with fans of Kidderminster Harriers and Nuneaton Borough, and not those from Chelsea and Arsenal - for all the honesty and endeavour of the Ryman Premier or the Blue Square, you don't get to see Rooney and Arshavin play, and fans still want to watch players who are truly gifted, as opposed to merely keen.
But yes, everyone should go and watch their local team. I do, but then I live two minutes from The Emirates.
But Fraser
Yes the quality may be there but how can you feel any sort of community with the players? I believe that Arsenal have 3 English players in their squad,the lowest in the league and will yet again be putting out a completely foreign line up tonight.
It may be technically great football but at what price? We have to remember that most of the football "gods" of the 50's 60's and 70's couldn't live with todays stars on the pitch but at least they understood sportsmanship.
Nope
I don't feel any bond with the players whatsoever. But then I don't go to see Arsenal play because I'm an Arsenal fan. I go because I love watching football, and they're the most convenient.
I remember a few years ago ago I watched home games at Kingstonian, Barcelona and Crystal Palace in successive weeks. And given the choice, I'd really rather be at The Bernabeu than Kingsmeadow. Any week.
I was
There not long ago (kingsmeadow that is) Quite a nice cup of tea.Can he Bernabeu do that and a pint of bitter?
No
And the beer is rubbish.
As an Arsenal fan of 40 years...
... I don't understand the importance of having an affinity with players because of their nationality or being 'local boys'. They are as much removed to me now as they were when I was a boy - I will always support Arsenal, the club/team/shirt, nothing to do with who plays for them, or how we perform. My boyhood hero was Liam Brady and he was Irish so why shouldn't my favourite player now be Russian or Spanish or a Brazilian Croatian?
So,
It makes no difference to you if the eleven people on the pitch were born in North London or Russia? I find that difficult to believe. If you are a local boy yourself surely you would like to think that the players would be local as well and that they grew up supporting Arsenal themselves. Otherwise you know they are just in it for the money.
Mind you I suppose you have to go that way if you support a big club.That's probably why the old school directors have been forced off the AFC board by people who are only in it for the profits.
Great start to the season for you though.
As a Spurs fan
can I back up an Arsenal fan. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether the player is a local lad or not. What counts is what he puts into the collective effort.
I am sure John Terry is held up as a paragon of the kind of English lad you suggest and yet I found his spinning of his so called loyalty to Chelsea whilst flirting with Man City and negotiating a massive pay increase utterly sickening.
A lot of the African and Eastern European players play as if their lives depended upon it. Because, frankly they do. Not just their lives but whole villages and communities which their income supports
Money
I'm sure Arsenal fans would be delighted if a player who was raised going to games on the North Bank made it into the first team at the Emirates.
And I'm equally sure this affinity would last until his first run of bad games, at which point the clamour for him to be replaced by the Russian, Spaniard or Brazilian on the bench would be deafening. Just as I'm sure fans at non-league grounds scream at players when they're performing badly, local or otherwise.
It's not about where you're from, it's about how good you are. And I imagine there are two facts that connect most clubs whose squads are made up of predominantly local players: first, that they don't have the finances to attract better players from elsewhere, and second, that the players they do have aren't good enough to attract the attention of other clubs with more money. It's about finance at every level of the game.
Not everywhere
http://www.corinthian-casuals.com/
What?
Using Corinthian Casuals as an example to back up why Arsenal should play more North Londoners is hardly the strongest argument is it Doug? Corinthians are to modern top-level football what Jehovah's Witnesses are to Christianity: a curious oddity.
Arsenal are beginning to bring through local lads (Wilshere and Gibbs both played for the 1st team last season; Randall, Gilbert, Hoyte, Lansbury, etc. are poised to break through frm the reserves), but at no time since the early 20th century has any top division team consisted of players only from their immediate area. OK, the net is spread wider now that it ever has been before, but there have always been Scottish, Irish and Welsh players in "first division" teams. Gary Imlach's wonderful My Father and Other Working Class Football Heroes gives an insight into the travails and travels of pro footballers in the 1950s. They certainly didn't just stick with their local team.
I think
You have rather misunderstood me.I was replying to fraser's comments that it is about money at all levels of the game.What has that to do with Arsenal?
Because you said
"If you are a local boy yourself surely you would like to think that the players would be local as well and that they grew up supporting Arsenal themselves" earlier in the thread? I guess?
Arsenal
I actually think Arsenal play the most attractive football in the country and are a delight to watch under Wenger.
Would we all agree that the huge influx of foreign players has and will have a big effect on the future of the National side?
Explanation, of sorts...
I was replying to your original posting in which you said:
"If you are a local boy yourself surely you would like to think that the players would be local as well and that they grew up supporting Arsenal themselves. Otherwise you know they are just in it for the money."
And making the point that players have never all been "local boys", even back in the 50s and 60s... I only used Arsenal as an example because (a) you mentioned them and (b) they're the team that I know most about.
I wasn't looking for a fight!
Well
Whoever you have playing for you just make sure that you finish above Man Ure.
Everywhere
It's still all about the finance. They have a big "donate" button in the middle of the homepage.
I'm an admirer of the Casuals approach, but I'm not convinced the side is staffed by players who choose to remain amateur in the face of Premier League scouting. Maybe I'm wrong.
Although according to Wikipedia, much of the highly-vaunted 2004/2005 squad were "picked off by wealthier neighbours", so I suspect the same rules apply in Tolworth as they do everywhere else: clubs selling if the money's there, players leaving for the same reason.
To slightly contradict
my earlier point - Spurs have had more English/British Isles players than most in top rank in last few years - but that does not alter fact that what I am interested is in what they contribute not where they come from.
Yes...
...it makes no difference to me if the eleven people on the pitch were born in North London or Russia. Please believe me.
I like to think that Arsenal's old school directors are making pragmatic business decisions and adapting to the realities of the modern game, for the benefit of the club. Not sure any have been forced off the board, other than David Dein who had a personal fall-out because the rest of the board were slow to take up the direction they are now taking. There's still plenty of old money at the Arsenal.
The whole 'no English players at Arsenal' thing makes me chuckle. We would happily take England players who would better our first team (ie only Gerrard, Terry, Rooney, Ferdinand, probably) - none of those would be sold to us.
Lady Bracewell-Smith was
Lady Bracewell-Smith was thrown off the board recently and was very upset at the shoddy way she was treated after many years.It seems to be a tug of war between an American and a Ukranian (I think) but neither seem to have the money to make an outright grab for control.
I feel most sorry for Wenger who is probably caught in the middle of it all. Since the move to the Emigrates he seems strapped for cash.
Arsenal v U2
Wasn't the Arsenal game switched from Wednesday to Tuesday cos of Wednesday clashing with a U2 gig in Glasgow? Maybe that screwed the ITV schedules cos they normally have the Tuesday match?
Either that or they have had the same thought as BBC did when they showed a Championship game live on Saturday 8th August? ie that everyone is so desperate for footie after the summer that they'll watch anything?
Tuesdays, Wednesdays
I was under the impression that ITV would show their game on a Wednesday from this season, hence their moving Corra to a Thursday. Sky will get the Tuesdays. In other words the reverse of last season.
Don't think that's the case
According to the Arsenal website:
"Strathclyde Police is advising supporters and fans to leave plenty of time to get to their event on Tuesday 18 August 2009 as around 120,000 people are expected to descend upon the city for the UEFA Champions League play-off at Celtic Park between Celtic and Arsenal FC, and to the U2 concert [at Hampden Park]..."
They're even laying on a 'free' Undertones gig at Celtic Park at 7pm to lure the fans in early.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/celtic-v-arsenal-travel-advice
Not sure what your point is, Caller ?
The home leg is today, Tuesday, and so is the U2 gig. The Glasgow authorities tried to get UEFA to switch and avoid a clash but showing their usual imagination and flexibility UEFA refused.
The away leg is Wednesday, which will be on ITV1. It seems the city fathers tried to prevent a logjam but UEFA said no, the little dears.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2009/08/08/celtic-set-to-face-...
Next week's game is on the Wednesday, on ITV1.
Actually...
...it turns out I may have been wrongly rude about UEFA, for a change. Seems the local cops reckon they can handle two full stadiums, four miles apart. Fancy...
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/08/09/exclusive-celt...
My point was
My point was that in the post just above yours kb said:
"Wasn't the Arsenal game switched from Wednesday to Tuesday cos of Wednesday clashing with a U2 gig in Glasgow? Maybe that screwed the ITV schedules cos they normally have the Tuesday match?"
And while there may well be a second U2 gig in Glasgow tomorrow (I have no idea) the game has not been switched to tonight to avoid a clash, as there's definitely a U2 gig in town this evening.
I wasn't referring to your post. Apologies for any confusion.
No probs
Only one U2 show, by the way. So a perfect storm for Celtic-supporting U2 fans. Some mad fanatics may try for a bit of both.
does this mean we will get
less crowing from tedious rugby bores about games played by gentlemen etc? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/harlequins/8191371.s...
At least...
Richards was banned for three years. You'd have to kill someone to get that kind of ban in football.
it the premeditation
that's the saddest part it all so petty.
Fraser - you are wrong!
As a season ticket holder at Brentford I agree with Fraser that the football may not be of the highest quality at times, but the difference is that in the lower divisions, on any given day you can't be sure who might beat who. There is genuine competition.
Just look at the pundit's predictions for this season. Almost all identify the same four teams (and yes even Arsenal get in there) to occupy the top four spots in the Premiership. However look at the predictions of who will get promoted/relegated from the Championship and Divisions One and Two and almost all forecast differing teams to go and down. I have seen Brentford listed to land anywhere between 3rd and 17th in the Division 1 table and having seen one game this season I predict the pundits might be right
It's not the competition
I prefer to watch Premier League football because the football is better, not because the results are unpredictable (I agree, they're not). But because I don't have a stake in the matches, who wins or otherwise is largely irrelevant to me.
Incidentally, the best goal I've ever seen scored during a game I was at was by Gary Nelson, for Brighton, against Brentford in the late eighties. I used to watch football there a lot when Hounslow Town were playing away from home.
Brentford V Brighton
was DEFINATLY better in the old days. The 0-0 game last Saturday won't liver long in my memory
Premiership is best
As a Watford supporter (by birth) I agree with you entirely. I can't get enough of the Premiership. I can watch Arsenal for hours and although it can get a bit frustrating, as long as it's attractive to watch I really don't care if they don't bother with the shooting bit because I don't care who wins. The nice new MK Dons stadium is just up the road from me, the seats are quite comfy and there's obviously a community spirit (despite or maybe because of it being a very young club) but I'd still rather watch a Premiership match on Sky.
Football in the old
days was better - it wasn't.
Footballers today don't care - they do
Footballers of yesterday were all good sportsmen - they weren't
Nowadays - too many foreigners. Yesterday - too many bananas
England did better in the old days - they didn't ('66 aside)
Footballers in the old days
could be found after the match in a pub near the ground, happy to talk to the fans.
Now it's hop into the Bentley / Porsche / luxury car of your choice and if you're going out drinking it will be in the VIP lounge in a club.
"Footballers today don't care - they do"
That's why they break contracts and bugger off to whomever the highest bidder is usually. Then kiss the badge after five minutes. There is much evidence to show they don't care but I can't see much to show they do (apart from the odd model pro) Unfortunately for every Ryan Giggs there are 100 Drogba's
I hate the badge kiss routine too
but the plain fact is that pre-Bosman and other empoyment legislation changes they were contractually more tied down. They didn't have the same options - so "loyalty" became a default virtue.
There are simply more opportunities for true talent now, more competition for it - Italy, Spain, Germany and increasingly Turkey and Russia - and far more money to make things happen - downturn aside.
On the caring front - let's take the primest of prima donnas - Cristiano Ronaldo. I saw him in the flesh twice - and on both occasions he never gave less than everything.
Euro super league?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2009/aug/18...
Is a super league of Europe's top clubs inevitable? Or is it just the rich clubs trying to protect themselves?
I view the Premiership as a circus.
It's over-hyped and the games can be just as dreadful as League One / Two football can be (though that could be down to me watching Newcastle on the odd occasion Hartlepool are not at home).
Crowds are down at Victoria Park from our average of just over 5,000 a few years ago to just over 4,000 now. That's partly down to the last manager seeming to have no relationship with the town or the fans, a lack of investment in new players and the down-turn in the economy.
Now we have a manager who goes out of his way to build a relationship with the town and the fans, we've signed 10 new players... yet the crowds haven't risen as we are now officially in a recession.
You will see fans posting on message boards that they can't make the latest home game due to money being tight - and I can't remember seeing that in my time on these boards.
Clubs have to be smarter in getting people to come along. Hartlepool United offered fans a chance to buy a season ticket on interest free monthly payments (over 5 or 10 months), reduced the age at which the elderly qualify for concessions from 65 to 60, and various cheap offers for kids.
The odd thing is, The Football League announced that the attendences for the opening day of the season were up on last year - so maybe things will not be as bad as expected - though again, Newcastle United might help to account for that as well.
but what are the pies like?
To be honest...
... I have no idea. Never had a pie at the ground (which is odd considering I'll have been there over 300 times).
I only live two miles away, so I always eat before I go.
Good at Hartlepool but
awful at my home team Brentford. Generally speaking the further north you go, the better the pie. In fact I find that for 'proper' football food, the poorer the quality of football the better the pie.
the ones at barnsley not bad
good pastry innards a little under flavoured,
That pie..
..has an uncanny resemblence to Chris Morgan..
The dirty cheating get.
we should do a set of
pie based Rhorsach (?) test for footy fans to help us express our inner pain, hurt and random trespasses!
Ticket incentives
Birmingham have offered season tickets at 0 percent interest over 4 equal installments even though Karren Brady steadfastly refused to consider this when I asked her about it at a fans forum about 4 years ago. I think the penny has dropped but it is too late - they offered kids for a quid on a number of occasions last year and still didnt sell out despite being in the top 3 all season. This has nothing to do with the quality of football but more to do with their arrogance to the fans. This close season they spent some money made some changes to the ground and did the ticket pricing deals and the fans have responded positively. But the years of negativity have reduced our hardcore fanbase by as much as 5000 per game.The thing is unless we are in the unlikely position of ever challenging for honours they will not get that base back - people have found other things to do with their saturday afternoon. I know if I ever stop going it will be a permanent lifestyle change - at the moment I would say I am hanging on by the skin of my teeth.
The Sky TV poster
Has anyone noticed that poster for Sky for the new season? The caption is "We know how you feel, because we feel exactly the same".
There are a couple of versions but the one that annoys me, that I see every morning at Highbury & Islington tube, is a bald headed guy, standing up, arms outspread, head tipped back, eyes closed while he hollers something out. You may also notice that around him, everyone is sitting down and are unexcited.
This is a picture of that annoying prick that you're sometimes unlucky enough to sit close to. Probably pissed, pays little attention to the game, never shuts up, never sits down, abuses the opposition fans ad nauseam. Generally he makes the very expensive experience fairly unpleasant.
And Sky want to align themselves with him!
See also
the oh so charming Barmy Army.
As a Spurs fan
I'm just enjoying being sat at the top of the Premiership.
As a football fan I'm enjoying Barnsley's success last night.
Barnsley?
sorry you've both got me confused
bisto: Barnsley didn't play last night and got tonked by preston earlier in the week.
fraser: what's wrong with supporting the "Mighty" Tykes?
You say Barnsley...
... I say Burnley. Let's call the whole thing off.
That was my point
Burnley played last night, not Barnsley. And there's 'nowt wrong supporting the Tykes.
that's fine
then as you where.
Burnley!!
I meant Burnley!
They scored a great try and conversion last night to win the game by an innings.
(searches frantically through desk drawer for the phial of medication)
1-0
Burnley 1 Utd 0
Barcelona 0 City1
is this a sign of the future ?
only in the ever hopeful
mind of city fan!
Only if you
concatenate the numbers to get Burnley 10 - 01 City
True to my word (see above)
I am actually taking a little bit of delight in ManU's defeat by Burnley!
I love watching United win things, but despite them losing what should have been an away banker, I am taking considerable solace from the fact that a newly promoted team (who haven't been in the top division for over 30 years, no less!) can still topple one of the giants of the game. Don't get me wrong, I would far rather it had been Liverpool or Chelsea, but it's still a great story nonetheless!
It's a crisis!
They're in terminal decline! Fergie out!
I feel good...