New podcast up now - plus homework!
New podcast up now. To subscribe go here. Mark Ellen, Andrew Harrison, Matt Hall and David Hepworth discuss Morrissey's throat and the death of celebrity, what it was like to be a 10-year-old UB40 fan and the strange, complicated tale of how the Verve had to give all the money from "Bittersweet Symphony" to somebody else.
Here's a bit of background listening: first of all the gospel group The Staples Singers doing a tune called "This May Be The Last Time" in 1960. It was credited to "Joiner/Traditional".
Now here's the Rolling Stones with their chart-busting self-penned tune "The Last Time" in 1965.
And here, from the following year, is "The Last Time" done by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra. Anyone spot the link between that and the Stones' version?
Finally, here from 1997, is the Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony", which is now credited, very profitably, to "Ashcroft/Jagger and Richards".
Anybody care to draw any conclusions from all that?
Er...the dog ate it...
Only one conclusion can be drawn: accountants and greed trump creativity every time. Witness Paul McGuinness's witless comments re ISP's role in "stealing music". Haven't they got enough drugs, houses and cars already?
But doesn't it also...
...call into question what exactly is "creativity?" The Staples Singers took an old gospel tune, Jagger and Richards, knowingly or not, took the same hook line, Andrew Oldham's arranger David Whitaker wrote something completely different on top of that and The Verve took that as the basis for their tune. Mick and Keith did very well out of it but nobody else did.
I still can't understand
how they managed it. There are two issues here: the Zepplineque roll-out of compositional credit, and the right to stick a flag on the orchestral motif. I mean, by the same token, the estate of James Brown must be due millions in writing credits.
But David
I do remember Keith Richards saying the Verve issue had nothing to do with them and everything to do with their publishing company and Allen Klein. Aren't you being a tad unfair about a track they wrote in their early 20's ?
And they did pay KD Lang for Anybody Seen My Baby?
As far as I remember, they
As far as I remember, they had to pay all profits to K. D. Lang for ripping off "Constant Craving".
No I remember Keith
saying that they paid it out of embarrassment. And it was The Stones that went after KD Lang.
Reallly?!?! Surprising! I
Reallly?!?! Surprising! I thought the rip off was sooooo blatantly obvious that Lang's management would have been after the Stones the day the song came out. Keith & Co. had every right to be embarrassed.
Too Right
Notice thats one of the singles they never play either.
Alleged veggie-fascism
Come on, chaps, I think you're somewhat exaggerating the degree of vegetarian coercion in your tales of Morrissey and Macca. Over and again, you each described these incidents as M & M "not allowing" anyone on their tour to eat meat, or "forcing" people to eat vegan meals. Rubbish. In each case it was apparent that they were simply not providing any meat in the food which they were laying on at their own expense. And why should they? If they believe it morally wrong to eat meat, then to pay for someone else to eat meat would be hypocritical and morally indefensible. After all, with the exception of the vegan meal being served on the plane, anyone wanting to eat meat was entirely free to go to the nearest McDonald's and push burgers into their faces, rather than expecting the bill-footer to cater to their personal ligging requirements.
Veggie fascism - FACT
Before I relay this tale, you should know that my wife is veggie and I respect the choice made by veggies however, a friend of mine has a veggie mother and father in law and whenever he visits their house for dinner, they only provide vegetarian food. Does this mean therefore that when they visit his house, he is entitled to serve purely meat based products as they should respect his choice as much as he is expected to respect theirs? Answers on a postcard please to.................
The Last Time...
...sounds kind of lightweight without The Verve's guitars filling out the bottom end. In fact it sounds like an easy listening remix of Bittersweet Symphony
The Mike Flowers Pops Easysuite Symphony?
Surely the point is
Surely the point is the only memoerable thing about BSS is the hook they lifted? If you ask anyone to hum it they will hum the strings bit, not the three note melody. If this wasn't the case they wouldn't have settled with Jagger/Richards, they'd have some up with a different instrumental hook. But they clearly couldn't, and quite rightly had to pay for it. As Keef said at the time, "Next time come up with something original, boys, and you can keep the money".
More broadly I think there is a natural and healthy exchange of ideas in the musical round, but wholesale lift and shift isn't on. For free anyway.
But I think the whole point is
that Keef didn't up "with something original."
The Verve obviously thought so
otherwise they wouldn't have given their royalties away! I am sure if they thought there was any sort of argument to keep the dosh they would have done so, wouldn't they? Can you imagine that weedy song without the strings bit?
I don't think they had a choice
legally Keith and Mick were the composers of the "strings bit." which isn't even on their composition; which, as the samples at the top of this thread demonstrates, is itself "adapted" from other sources.
I mean
They could have written an original 16 bars of orchestral hook - they didn't have to use someone elses, regardless of whether the copyright holder wrote it themsleves or not. I suspect they heard the orchestral hook, thought "that's bloody good, we'll have that" and then stuck a generic song on it. So quite rightly they should pay. Whether Jaggar / Richards are really the owners is irrelevant really - the Verve didn't have to use it.
But this is
the funniest thing.
What about...
....poor old Joiner? He appears to be owed some dosh.
The pedants are revolting..
I think you'll find that Centrefield (the one with the song which is quite uncomplimentary about the record comapny boss) isn't the first John Fogerty solo album - the first one is the one with Rocking All Over The World on it. I'm just saying.
(to be read in the voice of Mark Ellen...)
I see your pedantry and raise you...
Not if you count the Blue Ridge Rangers album, which is a Fogerty solo album in everything but name. That would make Centrefield his third solo album.
Oh hardly!
Well I have watched 5 of the "Morrissey/NuCeleb Debacle" clips you so wrongly reported in the latest.
I feel cheated, like I've been had - ta JR
No Mozzer fan, veggie or all things grim or northern.
I want my money back mister.
I do remember
Keith Richards saying on 25 x 5, in 1990 or thereabouts, that Andrew Oldham shut him and Jagger in the kitchen and told them to come up with an original song. They emerged proudly with The Last Time. Unfortunately the anecdote doesn't document Oldham telling them to get back in the kitchen, this time without their Staples albums.
I don't see how the repetition of "this may be the last time" , culminating in "maybe the last time, I don't know" can be transformed into Jagger and Richards' song, without any explanation except explicit borrowing; it's far too close to be a coincidence, surely.
Anyway, kd lang got the last laugh.
what i like about word...
Is that when you say "I'll put that up on the site later"..you actually do ...
Speaking of 'Word'
Thanks to that podcast I now know why 'Word' became 'The Word'... I'd often wondered that. Thank you Andrew Collins for slipping in that little nugget of information!
I must have missed that bit
Can someone enlighten me?
Comments
were made about how Verve had to become The Verve becuase of the threat of legal action from another 'Verve'. This followed jokey comments about how awful it was to have to add a definitive article to your name because of the threat of legal action.
Ah
Thanks.
Podcast volume
It's a always good listen, chaps, but FFS spring for some extra microphones. There's always someone off in a corner who's inaudible. Even Mark Ellen sounds as if there's someone sitting on his face. Which is possible, I s'pose.
Have to say I concur
An extra Mic at the back would help me turning up and down the volume in the office. Which must make anyone passing the door wonder what the hell the racket is all about, when whoever is sitting under the mic roars out.
Love it though. Keeps me involved.
Rename it the Up and Down Podcast !!
Old hairdressers
I'm catching up on the recent podcasts. Just heard the Jan 24th one about Jet Black being 70. However, re Charlie Harper, I can confirm that he wasn't just a ladies hairdesser. He also did blokes.
He used to cut mine sometimes, possibly round a mate's flat in Wimbledon in the mid-70's. (Which is possibly his age now) I'd completely forgotten until I heard Mark's comment.
Simple Minds
Great song though it is , I always thought the vocals on BSS sounded like mid 80's Simple Minds especially the line that says "I'm a million different people from one day to the next". Jim Kerr singing "Up On The Catwalk" anyone ? "One hundred million with letters from thousands"...
And of course UOTC is a name check song - "Deodata, Michaelangelo, Robert De Niro, so many others, Nastasia Kinski and Martin Luther". Weren't the 80's pretentious ?
wake up and staple
Surely its just a case of who's got the lawyers and a good musicologist?
What must happen is some representative of the Staple singers to get their arse in gear and re-scoop the lot???
If the Stones deserve the Verve cash then the Staples should get the Last Time money AND the BSS money and either burn it in front of Allen Klein or hold a festival of all the genius artistry music and wonder he has ruined,witheld or damaged irreparably over the years.