Entertainment For Lively Minds
Music
Music, it is what brought us all here in one form or other. I assume it's a passion for many if not all of us but because of the wonderfully eclectic nature of this site we discuss a million other things and music comes down to what I like / what I don't like, which I think is a bit of a shame really. Myself and the venerable Colin H have been indulging in some very pleasant light hearted banter surrounding our opposite end of the spectrum tastes. We have discussed whether two opposites like us could have common ground "When Pop Met Prog" if you like. we've dabbled with Tears For Fears, The Adventures and Nick Heyward but it would appear quite bizarrely that in the centre of our Venn Diagram would sit the Isle of Wights finest jazz funk popsters, Level 42. Reading about ver 42 it is clear that King, Lindup, Gould and Gould were inspired by John McCloughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra among others, who'd have thought it.
So I thought, idly, if any of you who are true lovers of music would like to discuss the process that brings lovers of prog to produce mass consumption jazz funk and pop. Where and how are those decisions made? I assume King and Lindup had a love of funk and Kings bass playing would lend itself to stuff like "The Chinese Way" Lindups voice certainly fits with the style. Did they sell out in the 80's and is it wrong? "Running In the Family" really is the most 80's of 80's albums and they went for the look, the sound and the kitchen sink but only the most cynical would deny that they are musicians of the highest order, real quality for the mass market. I'm no musician, my love of pop is because it makes me smile, my love of Justin Currie is because he speaks to my down moods, I have no idea what notes they're playing.
So questions, if questions are needed are these. Are musicians like Level 42 any less worthy than The Mahavishnu Orchestra because they went for the money? Does it matter? What determines what you listen to, skill or feeling? (I've had a shit Christmas by the way so excuse the ramble)
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Duran Duran
Taken seriously by pretty much nobody on here (I imagine). They didn't form a band to create a critically acclaimed body of work, their main motivation was to get rich, see the world, fanny about on yachts and sleep with supermodels. Yet somehow they managed to turn out some genuinely great pop tunes (Ordinary World, Save A Prayer, Careless Memories, to name but a few). In short - there's genuine songwriting talent at work there, yet you're not really allowed to like them because the conspicuous consumption somehow renders them less than credible.
Hope your Xmas, or what's left of it, bucks up Dave.
P.S.. If my argument wanders a bit there, it's because I'm hammered.
Often scoffed at by Hepworth
less so by Ellen, and such an easy target for fans of Springsteen-esque rootsy "authenticity" (BLURGHH!) it is hardly worth arguing the merits of Duran on this forum..you either get it, or you don't. I for one am firmly in agreement with you Prestonia.
I'm not sure if Duran set out to be a teen pop sensation (I dare say a lot of much more 'worthy' acts had similar motivations in terms of getting rich and shagging on Yachts), but for whatever reason their mix of Bowie, Chic and Post-Punk touched a nerve and they were the right looking boys in the right place at the right time.
They were a glamorous, ridiculous OTT pop band who wrote grandiose, almsost Proggy Pop epics with daft lyrics and preposterous videos. That's the kind of pop band I like. Westlife they were not.
They had some top tunes
I would put the Rio album amongst my favourite albums from the 1980s. Great tunes and a band with an image to fit the times.
They have obviously released a lot of tosh as well but any band that has tunes as good as Ordinary World and Save A Prayer in its canon will always be remembered fondly.
I am genuinely in awe
of anyone who can play a musical instrument, especially at a professional level. I don,t think there,s any shame in "selling out" and chasing the money, it,s the reward for years and years of practise. Hope 2012,s a better year Dave
It's visceral
I don't think it's easy to intellectualise why we love some music and other music leaves us cold.
I can also understand why someone who loves The Mahavishnu Orchestra would like Level 42. They both have musical sophistication and Jazz leanings.
Sometimes we like things through peer pressure, but not in my case.
I got my tastes from raiding my Brother's record collection. He was 8 years older than me so I was in to ELP, Genesis and Yes etc at 11.
At 15 I'd raided my girlfriend's dad's record collection which had Steely Dan and Herbie Hancock in it so I spent more time with his headphones on than talking to her. He also had a Fender Rhodes..Yeah!(I play keyboards)
Herbie got me in to Soul and Jazz and Funk. None of my friends were in to this. No peer pressure. Just discovering things as I went along.
At 17 I heard an amazing tune on the Robbie Vincent show. I didn't catch what it was for about 3 weeks. I finally discovered it was called Love Meeting Love by a new band called Level 42. I was hooked.
So there you go.
My journey from Prog to Level 42.
Mark King did bring out a solo album in the 80s called Influences which
was a bit more rocky/proggy. I must dig it out sometime.
That's right
But it's more of a visceral thing for non-musicians. If you are a player, you listen to music in a more analytical way.
There will be many purveyors of pop music who consider themselves to be serious musos. Sting and Nik Kershaw, for example. Both could probably handle themselves fairly well in a jazz rock context. But they've had to compromise their musical credibility by appealing to a mass audience. Level 42's music evolved out of the early 80s funk scene but was also informed by the jazz rock they would have listened to in the 70s. I imagine they would have been fans of Brand X. Which raises the question would Phil Collins have made a more credible mark as a musician if he had only played with Brand X and not with Genesis? I don't think so.
Not just for the money
About a week before Christmas I went to a charity carol concert, there was a male voice choir, a 100 member teenage girl choir and a local orchestra. In total nearly 200 performers getting together to do something they love for no payment. I went because I know one of the performers. Good grief, it was just awful. So awful that it beggars belief that anyone could enjoy it but people clearly were. It was for a good cause though - next year I'll probably buy my ticket but there will be just a bit more elbow room for the rest of the audience on the night!
Great question
"Are musicians like Level 42 any less worthy than The Mahavishnu Orchestra because they went for the money?"
Of course not...and I don't believe Level 42 "Went for the money" any more than the other band.
Ultimately all musicians want the same thing, to play music. You won't find a working musician who hates what they do, but just does it for the money. You'll find a whole lot more barely scraping a living but doggedly living the dream because they simply have to make music and a lot of them will say in interviews they can't do anything else.
The ideal situation is to make a living making the music you love.
Clearly, if you specialise in writing noodly, Jazz-fusion/Prog Rock you will make less money than someone who writes memorable Top 40 hits.
I really don't believe in this idea of 'Selling out'. It is utter nonsense. Level 42 basically had a career making kind of Jazz Funk with a pop edge, and they found that they had some tunes that crossed over and became chart hits. I don't get the impression they were any less committed to what they were doing than the members of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and I don't believe they deliberately sold themselves short in order to make money.
Scritti Polliti is a better example. Green started out doing scratchy, punk funk on Rough Trade. It was great music, got the thumbs up from John Peel, the NME and it sold, but he wasn't satisfied and tore up the original plans and started again. He managed to get a Record Label who would fund him getting a load of crack session players in and Arif Mardin to produce a glossy Pop/Soul LP. Not because he wanted to sell more records, but because that was his vision, that was the noise in his head and the music he really loved. He didn't do it to become famous, in fact he couldn't deal with the fame that came with it and retreated from it as quickly as he could.
Peer pressure, sort of
My prog patch was partly inspired by peers around the age or 14, but oddly out of step. They were all into Yes (at least the ones I hung out with). Can't even remember how I bypassed that and headed off into ELP. Probably something to do with Fanfare For The Common Man at the time of the Montreal olympics, and spreading out from there.
One very minor claim to fame was sharing a flat with a classical musician who was gob smacked I could name Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition thanks to ELP. She was well aware of my musical tastes at the time, and classical wasn't even in the same post code, let alone close.
But to the OP, no, selling out or technical profficiency aren't make or break IMHO. Music is what moves you, whether it's played with technical brilliance or baffling crudity, pop or obscure. Stuff moves me from all over the spectrum, but I wouldn't know an MO track if it bit me.
May I point m'learned friends at the great pop song
"Music" by John Miles:
Music was my first love
And it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
Would be impossible to do
In this world of troubles
My music pulls me through
Says it all really (and to a good tune, to boot).
Best Musicians
Many of the best musicians around are session players and for them it's a job, or perhaps more a vocation, and they do it for the money. The same musician can be heard on the worst records and the best.
I'm Your Fan
I remember reading a Mark King interview many years ago in which he spoke about being a massive Mahavishnu Orchestra fan and even dressing in white as a teenager in homage to John McLaughlin. I think he may even have said that he first met one of the other members of Level 42 on the IOW ferry on the way back from seeing a Mahavishnu gig on the mainland.
Level 42
I don't believe Level 42 changed direction just for the money, I think it was a natural progression in their career. They started off as a instrumental band primarily, then developed their craft as songwriters.Their first few minor singles , eg Turn It On, Hot Water, still maintained their jazz funk sound. I still think they're underrated as songwriters and some of the production on their eighties albums, still stands up to this day. Although Running In The Family was a massive hit,it's saxophone/keyboard riff is the part of the song most people remember and it's a nice nodd to their jazz/ funk influences.
If You've Time To Kill Today
all they really needed
was a better lead guitar player and they would have been a good jazz rock band. Unfortunately, by the time Alan Murphy joined it was too late for all that.
Boon
Boon was a great rhythm player, I think he is still vastly underrated. I saw them when they toured with Alan Holdsworth. Although he is a fantastic player, his sound didn't suit the band at all. King's brother now plays guitar with Level 42 and I reckon he's the best since Boon.
I have been derided...
... for my liking for Level 42 by several of my friends over the years so I come to this discussion well versed in the topic.
There IS a turning point in their career and it's with the "World Machine" album. It's also my favourite album because I think its the one where they most successfully blended their two styles. Before it, the jazz/fusion style and influences are to the fore, after it they settled into writing "pop songs" for several albums. Also, before and after, their "hit rate" in terms of producing great albums is mixed (just like most other people, I should add quickly) but WM is rock solid all the way through.
The question then is "what made them change ?". Money, a taste of a higher success level, the thrill of bigger audiences ? Who knows - I supposes only they could answer that.
Hadn't heard this in years...But I love it.
Grabbed The Chills "Submarine Bells" from my CD rack the other day after not listening to it for years and when this track came on it was like the first time I ever heard it...just the most propulsive..punky..perfect edgy Pop song.."Familiarity Breeds Contempt"..I just had to share...;-).As to the Topic..some very accomplished musicians lose that appreciation of the simple stuff which can be just as spine tingling.