I can't for the life of me work out why people like Campbell and Lanegan are playing standing-only shows. It's not as if everybody wants to get on the good foot, is it? What happened to seated venues? Do they take the seats out to get more people in and increase the ticket income or is it one of those things that they artist prefers because they think it's somehow more *authentic*?

And as for the lack of stagecraft, why not just insert the word "professionalism"? They've sold you the ticket, it's their job to ensure that you have a good time, to put you at your ease, let you know what to expect and not bore you too much. I don't care how deep their existential pain is. They're bloody entertainers. This isn't particularly aimed at these two but only in rock are the audience expected to put up with people who:
a) have no communication skills
b) don't know it.

You're assuming that people spend £12.50 to watch the music. I don't think that's true anymore for a large number of folk - they pay to attend an event, to be part of 'the scene', and to be where other people with £12.50 to spend have decided to be. The music is part of that, but not all of it.

It's like all the folks who pay £50 to watch Arsenal play at The Emirates and leave 10 minutes before the end. The result isn't the be all and end all. Being there, and being able to say they were there, is enough.

when I went to see Goldfrapp at RFH. Had marvellous seats, nice view and was well into an evening of retrofuturistic electrodiscopop and psychedelic folk action. Then second song, a couple came and sat in front of us, and I swear the woman had ADD. There was not one minute where she wasn't fidgeting, taking pics on her phone, managing to locate half her friends sitting around her, and just simply chatting throughout. I'm not that much of a snob that I insist everyone sits enraptured and must know every tune, but the show was almost irrelevant in this case. The final straw came during the encore of Happiness when kazoos were handed out to the crowd to join in. This couple just spent the song posing for each other's phones rather than actually engaging with the music. It was some terrible terrible world where concerts are just reduced to 'experiences' and lifestyle moments that you catalogue via your facebook page. Either that or she was some coked-up underling from the record company.

... that wherever you stand at a standing-only venue will become a main thoroughfare within minutes.

See also festivals.... want to create a pathway through the crowd where there was none before? Simply sit down on your picnic rug/binliner/cardboard box in an empty space, and its guaranteed that within 5 minutes there will be a crowd around you, and people walking right through the space you're sitting in.

And was stood in my usual spot front and centre, so moving about was not an option.

I continue to be [though after all these years I really should know better] stunned at peoples behaviour at gigs. At the two Crowded House shows I went to last year, I was contantantly being distracted by the the flow of people getting up and going to the bar. The hurge to shout "will you lot just SIT DOWN" was overwhelming.

As someone who used to manage a medium sized venue (Liverpool's Royal Court which had a capacity of 1,800)you have to remember that the bar take is basically your main source of income from a concert. If an artist and promoter are big enough they can insist on a 'no drinks' stipulation during the performance but usually this would affect the price of the hire deal. A promoter might hire the venue for £2,000 but you can make £15,000 + on a good night on the bar (I think our record was £21,000 at an Ocean Colour Scene gig). Many people would get completely rotten before, during and after concerts - that's just the way a lot of gig goers like to experience these occasions and you would get just as many people complaining that the bar was shut!

I hate fidgety folk in sit down gigs, but stand up gigs have a different ambience and I don't mind walkers. But there are few acts that can segue seamlessly from one audience to another. Intimate and reflective is better sitting, noisy and exciting, better on feet. Nothing worse than experiencing either the wrong way round.
Talkers are what get my goat. This is especially difficult at what I call Supper Club venues, like the Glee Club or the old Ronnie Scotts in B'ham, wher the bar is open and food may be served. I had many ruined night at the latter thru' thoughtless oiks, perhaps there despite, rather than because of, th eperformer. It is also bloody rude to the performer. Mind you, I hate people talking when I am listening to any music, even recorded, especially if I believe, as any correspondent on this site, that I am enriching the life of the listener by opening up their ears, Archie, to the joy of Chet Baker, possibly as good a trumpeter in jazz as one could expect, perhaps in part disregarded cos he wasn't of darker hue. Good singer too.

seated gigs. For many of the bands I like a seated gigs would be fine, you would get the types and sorts who "just want to dance" but we weed these out at the door any good door can spot them.
I too am amazed by the sorts who wait until the second song to barge their way down the front. Being acussed type I often just say no but they just barge past somelse.
As to lack of stage craft you can only get away with this if you music is truly top notch. But you can learn at a recent interpol gig the band we much more interactive with the audience than they have been before, the bass player even turned to face the crowd! We don't necessarily want 20 min homely chats between each song but some recognition that the audience are there would be start.

I just love the cross-pollenation. And, if you will, the cross pollenation.

Mrs E has emailed me to point out that she wasn't wearing stripy socks last night. My mistake.

£12.50?
When did you see this gig?
Was it 1986?

do you recall...when sitting down on teh floor was the norm at gigs?
Back in the 60's at Exeter University prog-rock gigs, it was quite the thing for the whole audience to sit on the floor and watch the band er, express themselves through their music. Happened all the time. Then, some hapless pillock would stand up and start doing the weavy arm dance, shortly followed by affronted cries of 'Sit Down!'
Many a happy hour was spent watching Pricipal Edwards Magic Theatre being appreciated in this fashion.
Whilst leaning on the bar at the back with a brown split waiting for the main act.
(having turned up early at 6pm to ask the arriving bands if they 'needed any help with their gear', which was always accepted and precluded the need for ticket purchase. There's a possibly still a retired uniformed University doorman in Devon who thinks I'm in Spooky Tooth).

It staggers me every time I go to a gig why people spend their hard earned cash to see a gig and then bloody talk all the way through it. I even heard at a recent gig (though I forget which one it was) someone say "this is my favourite song" to her friend and then talk in a voice loud enough to be heard above the PA throughout said song.

I used to think it was a London problem with far too many people just going along to see 'this weeks big thing' and not really being interested in the music at all but it seems it is nationwide and there are just a lot of selfish arseholes about.

Still I'm going to see Melt Banana on Monday and as they are as LOUD as a very LOUD thing anyone talking won't be able to hear their own voice so it should be alright for the night.

...I went to see Terry Reid a few weeks back and there were a group of people there who talked all the way through the damned show. They seemed like the 'die-hard' contingent who'd been to some of his other gigs on the tour, which made it all the more annoying for the rest of us who hadn't. Terry himself had a warm stage persona and was very likeable, though.

I went to see Fish last September and there was one woman who constantly went back and forth to the bar for the show's entirety. Amusingly, Marillion played my university hall in December the same year and she was there too- I made sure I wasn't stood by her for long!!

I have to admit I prefer seated gigs too.

If the band has a rhythm section, it should be a standing show. If there are no bass or drums of any sort, sitting is OK.

Simple really.

It's not just a phenomenon at gigs. I went to see Kent play a 20/20 match against Surrey last Friday night and it felt like hardly anybody was watching the cricket apart from me.

....why I both agree and disagree with you, Mr E. I agree because I am 5'6" and have long campaigned for people to stand in regimented order of height at gigs. I agree because it depresses me when I go to see a band who not only have very good songs but also top quality stagecraft (eg Crowded House) and people still can't pay attention and still seem to end up being annoying to each other even though they're supposedly united by their love of the artistes. And I agree because I can't grasp the idea that people don't go to the gig for a performance of the music, but to be part of a 'scene' in which talking to each other loudly and spilling beer (which you could do in Yates' Wine Bodge) is more important than the performance.

But I disagree because I often witness the other end of this spectrum, namely the unsigned local circuit, which I endure both from the audience and from the stage. A lot of venues have covers bands on Fri-Sat because they know they'll sell more beer that way; but on, say, a Wednesday an originals band is better because they bring their mates, and that sells more beer than an empty room. But fuck me, local-unsigned audiences are a miserable lot. The band puts their all into the show, pulls off some proper stagecraft - I've seen unsigned stuff that puts most well-known bands to shame - and the audience stands there, its feet welded to the floor, arms folded, claps politely at the end of each song, then hurtles out for a gasper during the last song leaving only the dedicated fans/boyfriends/girlfriends to sustain the applause. Then one brave individual goes and tells the band how great they were. Which means I'd much rather everyone was dancing, shouting, spilling beer, cheering, heckling, fighting, you name it. It took a trip to Canada to remind me that the first, indeed the only, job of a band onstage is to entertain, not to demand.

Actually I think if audiences appreciated a good performance they'd also support a much more lively unsigned scene; but basically most people couldn't tell a good Radiohead gig from one where Jonny put a CD on and Thom pissed off for a cuppa. And since we in the world of Word know that music is humankind's most truly worthwhile achievement, that so much of humankind is so clueless and impressionable is far more annoying than the people who are actually enjoying themselves and whose main crime is being taller than me.

Madding crowd, not maddening crowd? As in "Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife" Thomas Gray.

Sparks at the Shepherds Bush Empire last Friday night - helped by the excellent Level 1 Balcony, great bar, great views and sound, comfortable seats for us old gits.
Doors open at 19:00, Sparks on at 20:00 - no shite support band or annoying DJ. Wonderful performance, stage craft, humour, visuals, unexpected moments.
Unusual lack of annoying audience members, crowd immersed in the music, respectful, enthusiastic - very few mobiles, cameras or chatting prats. New album played as it was intended.
Break for old gits to relieve themselves and get the beers in followed by a set of "Old". Amazing crowd reaction, moving farewell and time to get last orders in the pub - HEAVEN!

I agree with almost every stance taken here:

1) Shoot the talkers
2) Sit down and pay attention at a gig aimed at the 'listener' audience.
3) Stand up and dance where the music and venue dictate

BUT:

What about the (mainly provincial)venues that book 'dancier' acts but have a fully seated auditorium? It seems to me that the problems start at this point.........

I've been known to frequent demands that the audience remains seated, doesn't smoke, doesn't talk and switches off their mobile phones. Yes, I know it's jazz (and a different set of values), but it's a wonderful environment to see and hear music. Acts usually play three sets, meaning that the bar does decent business through the night and anyone talking too loudly or letting their phone go off is treated with the hostility deserved. When you go in, it's expected that you are there to take in a performance, not be the centre of attention yourself.

Wouldn't work for all venues, all acts or all types of music, but there is the occasional oasis of courtesy out there.