Entertainment For Lively Minds
Monarchy Theywinski?
Posted by Leedsboy on 18 November 2010 - 12:47pm.
Apart from me attempting to win the most tortuous thread title competition at next weeks Readers Award get together, Sebastian Beach raised the question around who would win a vote between Cameron or Milliband and the Queen. I think predicting the result would be genuine guess work - I have no real idea who would win.
Given that the Massive is a fairly broad church, we can have our very own vaguely representative referendum. So what would you prefer - a continuation of the current monarchy or an elected head of state?
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I'll start the ball rolling
I'd prefer an elected head of state.
Elected Head Of State
For me too
Long live the republic!
we are big enough and ugly enough to govern ourselves. Whatever the personal attributes of the Windsors the idea that William & Kate's firstborn (and that's their only job in life to breed) from it's first breath will have higher standing, privilege and power (however nominal) than any of the delightful , bright , funny, resourceful off spring of The Massive is corrosive to our country.
I've no time for Cameron but one good thing about him is if enough people think he's messed up he'll be out the door. Modern healthcare and their pampered lifestyle mean we are stuck good or bad with the Queen or next King for 80 plus years.
An elected head of state
Would be my choice as well.
As for the theoritical vote between DC, EM & Big Liz - no contest,a royal wedding is in the offing, she would win by a huge margin.
Elected
please, but none of the proffered choices.
Can I vote?
With my British passport, no one can stop me.
Elected, please. Just 'none of the above'.
OK
I'll start the keep The Royals campaign going. As you were, as it were.
I'm
with you
Yep.
I like us the way we are.
Me too.
Give me a 1000 years of history, any day.
Call me a serf if you like.
And a 1,2,3,4....
Count me in.
Viva La Republic!!!!
*sharpens pitchfork, lights torch, marches on Buckingham palace*
I'm in ...
Rememnber she has horses, guns and impenetrable dining etiquette. You're going to need something special if you want to depose Q-Unit!
Not bothered
I'll abstain.
If the election for head of state wasn't run on party political lines then I might put in a vote for Clarkson :-)
Either..
1 - A republic and dissolution of the UK
2 - a written constitution/bill of rights
Or..
Both!
Elected every time
It's about time this country entered the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
A President along the lines of the Republic of Ireland who had the admirable Mary Robinson. Now they have Mary McAleese who I believe was born in Belfast. I'm sure she wouldn't view it like this but just so I can illustrate the point that she can become Head of State of a foreign country but not the one she was born in.
I'm not sure...
...the Massive is particularly representative of the population at large, mind.
Sorry, let me rephrase: I'm dead certain that the Massive is completely unrepresentative, in almost every way, of the population at large. :-D
Fear of Emperor Mandy
puts me in the status quo camp.
My 21-year-old self would have me guillotined though.
My views on the matter
have already been expressed elsewhere.
Current system works leave well alone.
I'm for
keeping things as they are. It's not perfect but works well enough.
Me too
If I had time I'd write a small essay, but that sums it up for me...
Presidents can be voted out.
King Charles III can't.
*forms angry mob*
Instead of
an Elected Head of State I'd prefer an Erected Shed Of State: a complete mess inside but at least once I've closed the door I'm King of all I survey.
What about getting that bloke from Oz
that Baldrick tracked down, the one with a better claim to the throne than all these Germans? Ice cold beers on the NHS, public barbies where MacDonalds used to be, by Royal Proclamation? Bonzer.
I need more information
How much will it cost to hold an election and pay this head of state every, say, 5 years in comparison to how much it costs to keep the queen in Corgis and kebabs?
Also, how much will it cost to change the currency etc. (when I was in Australia this was suggested to me that the expense of change was a key reason why some would vote for keeping her).
And: what would this head of state actually do? Do they basically go around opening hospitals and making speeches on chirstmas day? If so, is there any point in electing someone to do this?
I think I'm currently in favour of keeping what we've got, but I'm not feeling deeply attached to this position. Come waft this floating voter.
At least we've currently got a dedicated, professional
hospital opener/speech maker with 20 years training followed by 60 years experience and not someone who's stepping into the job for a few years.
Someone raised the spectre of it ending up as a job for ex-politicians - President Mandelson so I've changed my mind and will vote to keep the status quo. ANYthing but Mandelson back again.
I'll do it for £200k pa plus expenses.
I'll buy my own house out of that but I wouldn't mind a cleaner as part of the job. That would be a big saving I'd bet.
Can I count on your vote?
Is your face good for currency?
I'm not about to stuff just any Leedsbloke's head into my pocket you know. Show us your profile...
It's not bad
I have a big chin but if we turn the notes by 90 degrees and use it in portrait, I reckon it will look ok.
Fervent Man U fans call Leeds supporters 'chins' don't they?
On the basis that you can't say 'Leeds' in a Yorkshire accent without using your chin? :-)
Fervant Man U fans say that?
I live in Hampshire - I'll ask them.
*concedes Leeds fan in Hampshire means this is basically self deprecating*
Is the Hampshire based Leeds fan
coming along to the Madejski stadium on the 27th then?
I'm glad you asked
My boys football club is doing the guard of honour. So I will be with the Yateley FC boys on the pitch. (with a Leeds shirt underneath my coat). My son is will be wearing his under his Yateley shirt and we are both aiming at shaking hands with Becchio before the game.
I'll wave if you tell me where you're sitting.
I'm in the Upper West...
but when I see you I'll run down to pitchside pointing and screaming "but he's Leeds I tell you!".
Of course a couple of pints at the Word Awards thingy the night before might persuade me to stay in my seat...
I'll get 'em in on Friday then
Just to remain undercover. Looking forward to the game mind. Neither team can keep a clean sheet for love nor money so should be entertaining. Or nil all now I've typed that.
I shall be in the Leeds end,
so Word massivers here, there and everywhere !
Blimey, I'll be outnumbered...
as my fighting days are behind me I'd better get Danny Dyer on the ol' dog and bone, get him and some pwopah nawty geezers to give me some back up!
God bless
And have a right royal cockney knees up afterwards eh? Cor
Never heard that one,
have heard a whole lot worse though.
Are you Lembit Opik?
Shouldn't you be eating marsupial genitals somewhere?
Marsupial Genitals
TMFTL
Never get bored of that joke...
By the way MUFC/Leeds rivalry is pretty ferocious at times to put it mildly but I am sure the 'chins' thing (my friend who passed this one on is a Stockport Red) is at the teasing end of the scale.
is that another term for
pocket billiards?
I would certainly like to vote -
- a head of state doesn't need to have much power to act as a brake or counterweight to prime ministers. Germany/Italy are examples of this approach. Her Maj the Q is unusual in the full length of the monarchy's history in not being mad or noticeably corrupt or unable to speak English. If she were less tactful about the enormous albeit theoretical power she has, and were more like some of her Hanoverian or Stuart ancestors (never mind the Middle Ages crowd) I doubt there would be the same fuzzy warm glow towards her. Those limited freedoms we do have aren't enshrined in any statute, they are judge made and down to 'habit'.
I'd like to suggest a joint presidency to add 'checks and balances' - and I put forward the Troggs as my preferred candidates. Just so we can hear all their discussions under the FOI act.
Raid the Palace
Elected Head of State for me please.
Depends what the Elected HoS
Depends what the Elected HoS does - actual power or ceremonial? Party affiliated or independent.
Because based on what I've seen, I wouldn't want a direct election for a HoS. The political atmosphere over here is vitriolic, and the Government shuts down on a regular cycle just for elections.
I don't endorse the Royals, but I don't have a huge problem with them. I can't think of anyone who I would have as an elected HoS.
viva la republic
for me.
Look, if the public are voting to keep Wagner in...
can they be trusted to vote for an Elected Head of State? That's my worry.
No they probably can't. But …
When I were a very young lad, the Monarchy, the Queen and the whole circus was taken worryingly seriously. Perched on your grandmothers mantlepiece alongside that funny looking carving of Jesus, you had the impression that it was about some kind of real hereditary power. Their detachment carefully and dishonestly protected. All about faith and unelected privilege, made you quite angry. Or at least it did me.
Luckily in my lifetime they have shown the world that they are nothing more than human. The welcome outcome of this, is that they are now nothing more than a kind of affectionately held cultural sideshow. With that in mind, I really don't see much harm in them. Not sure about the real economics, but we are reliably told it helps tourism. As long as no one is stupid enough to think that they actually have any power.
Tourism
I reckon an annual beheading of a royal at Wembley would sell out, raise a fortune on PPV tv and creating a big boost in tourism. And when we run out of heads, all of the Royal Palaces could become theme parks and hotels. That will trump the business as usual approach.
*takes tongue from side of cheek*
As the axe comes down …
Maybe in times of 'economic crisis', and astronomical National Debt, we should just sell the whole lot to the Chinese maybe. Castles, palaces, all the property they own and lease in London, the whole lot. If it would raise enough, I'd be all for it. Alas it probably wouldn't.
I spotted a problem
I don't think the Chinese approach to elected head of state is that different to our current method. Just less mature.
After initial excitement
at improved results, they would be voted out after another financial crash. We'd bring in an expensive, experienced, foreign HOS who after a small change in fortunes would revert to 4-4-2 and end up being called the prat in the hat in The Sun. I've got my stories confused again haven't I, nurse, NURSE!!!
I wanna be elected.
No I don't really but I would prefer an elected head of state.The concept that purely by dint of birth any person is granted such an elevated position in society is both ludicrous and repugnant.
Yeah you are probably right
but the world isn't perfect is it.
's just life though...
...innit? Some people are born lucky in all kinds of ways. It's not the fault of Dave Sprague from my primary school that he was born with approximately one fifteenth the brainpower of a squirrel any more than it's mine I was born reasonably bright, but it still determined our destinies as surely as if he'd been born in a slum and I in a palace. As it is, his parents were pretty well off, but he's still got no prospects. Unfair, but hey.
No the world isn't perfect.
But I thought making a small effort to improve it wherever we can is somehow incumbent upon us and preferable to just accepting the status quo.
Off to the tower yer traitors
I'd keep Liz von Gambelputty Saxe Coburg Windsor as she herself is rather wonderful..gawd bless her. It's Phil the Greek and brood who get up me nose.
I'll just keep repeating the phrase "President Mandelson"
Actually...
Actually, you don't really need a Head Of State at all. Switzerland gets on fairly well without one.
Slavery is Wrong
Make no mistake, our hereditary monarchy is the last vestige of legal slavery in the UK. We own them from birth. Fated to live a life in an ever-brighter, ever more cruel spotlight for our tabloid entertainment.
Sure, they get the wealth. Does it make them happy? It would appear not, given their track record over the last few decades. And that shouldn't be surprising. Is their version of the Word printed on better paper than ours? And even if it was, would that make it an even better read?
In an age where most of us enjoy an unprecedented level of personal wealth and quality of life, the upside of fame just isn't that great. What sane person would sign up for such a mephistophelean deal? at least the Katie Prices of this world made a choice. Those born into our royal menagerie do not.
The monarchy should be abolished because it is cruel. Like badger-baiting and dog-fights, it beolngs to an earlier, less compassionate age. let's set them free.
Yes, very good point
I agree with this completely Lando. When I said, probably unwisely, that I "don't see much harm", I wasn't considering your well made point. These poor unfortunate souls, inflicted as they are with aggressive media humiliation from birth, I don't think slavery is too strong a word.
Head of State?
What - like a president?
Isn't that pretty much how the Prime Minister is seen by the rest of the world anyway?
Monarchy - whilst not being pro-royal, frankly what harm does it do that we as a nation have got a symbolic Monarch
It isn't all that 'symbolic'
In practice and over quite a long period the royal family don't exert that much power themselves - but the machinery that they sit on top of operates ALL the power. The royal perogative, i.e. the legitimacy of pwoer - as inherited by HMG in return for the Civil List, allows a really alarming degree of state secrecy and I reckon contempt for the governed, by comparison with most other western states we can find out very little about what goes on and why decisions were made.
It's certainly a long way from the benign muddle most people prefer to think we live in, and when it all really kicks off in the financial markets (as it inevitably will over the next 18 months) you might see just how little power or influence or even protection in law you actually have.
Oh god I'm off again - I'll stop now (sorry Bob!)
But I'm not sure that replacing the Queen with
President Mandelson would change much. The levers of power would still be the same, just operated by machiavellian ex-politicians rather than someone who genuinely seems to care about what's best for her country.
Swapping a Queen for a......
.......well you know what I was going to type before political correctness got the better of me.
On the Week in Westminster
recently there was an interview with David Laws, the first to resign from the coalition because of his expenses.
He said that prior to the election, Buckingham Police had made it very clear to all the parties that in the event of a hung parliament, they did not want to be left deciding who was going to form a government and that they did not want Gordon Brown standing down as PM until it was very clear who was going to replace him.
So all the venom that was poured own on Brown for "squatting in Downing Street" really should have been directed at the Palace for insisting he stayed there. The Palace therefore was being extremely political while trying to avoid making a political decision. What kind of a constitutional mess is that?
It also raises an interesting "what if" question. Had Brown been allowed to hand over the keys on the Friday, removing one of the key obstacles to a Lab-Lib agreement, quite possibly they might have stitched something together, or perhaps the Tories would have been left to form a minority government. Perhaps, perhaps not. But because of the Palace's intervention, we'll never know. So to suggest they have no power or influence and are of only ceremonial relevance is ludicrous.
Surely that wasn't a political decision as such
more a question of wanting to ensure that the country had continuity of government?
If Brown had been allowed to stand down as PM before a new government had been formed then there would have been constitutional issues in the event of (say) a nuclear war - and probably lots of other stuff that requires the existence of a PM.
So a constitutional decision rather than a political one.
Except that
the constitutional decision has political dimensions and played a big part in giving us the government we now have, for better or worse.
Was it the right consitutional decision? Maybe yes, maybe no. Either way, it underlines the immense power and the influence of the Palace / head of state still has in certain circumstances at least.
On that basis, personally I want somebody who has that much power to have a real chance of losing it if they exercise it badly.
Labour
Walked away from the idea of a coalition. Senior Labour nobs were on the radio saying it wasn't a goer. Clegg was begging Brown not to quit yet. I think they'd just had enough.
I agree with your main point however. This idea that the monarchy have no power is rubbish. They prop up and legitimise the whole privileged upper tier of society.
That wasn't the impression
Laws gave in his interview. I'll try and dig out the podcast over the weekend to check, but the sense he gave was that initially at least, Brown was pretty much under orders from on high not to quit. I think the Labour figures deciding it wasn't doable came later.
Either way, whether it changed the course of history or not. Your last para hits the nail on the head.
So - we seem to agree 'they' have no real power or influence
- Except when it counts....
Agree
They tried to find common ground initially. But the Straws, Blunckets etc were very anti.