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John Terry stripped of England captaincy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/feb/03/john-terry-stripped-engla...
I find it hard to be fair to John Terry because, to be honest, I hate him, but does anyone think he's been hard done by?
Personally, I think his 'defence' to the racism charge is a farce, but it's not up to me to decide his guilt on that and, as a liberal with a law degree, I am strongly wedded to the principle of innocent until proven guilty.
That said, the England captain should arguably be beyond reproach and it would greatly weaken the FA's stance on racism if they do nothing and he is later convicted. So, overall, I think they've done what had to be done.
It has also solved a dilemma for me as I would genuinely rather England not win a tournament than see John Terry receive the trophy and be immortalised alongside Bobby Moore. (I know this is a highly unlikely scenario in any case, but we do have as much of a chance as Greece in 2004 or Denmark in 1992!)
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Next England Captain
We’re not exactly spoiled for choice are we?
Gerrard's fitness too suspect, Rio Ferdinand barely justifying selection, Wayne Rooney suspended for two games.
Who on earth will it be?
Ferdinand is (indirectly) involved...
...in the Terry affair, so he shouldn't be picked as captain in place of Terry while it's ongoing.
If Terry is able to be picked, then he should also be able to be captain. Besides, the decision should be Capello's alone, surely? If I were him, I'd seriously be looking at my contract.
Vicky Pryce should be the next England captain
I hear she's good at taking penalties
*I'm here all week*
Or, as Nick Clegg apparently remarked
about Chris Buffhuhne - 'say what you like about Chris, but there's nobody better at getting his points across'.
The issue for me
is, while I absolutely defend the point of a person is innocent until proven guilty, Terry seems to be developing a habit of bringing the game into disrepute, as they say, on a national level. Mainly after the Wayne Bridge's missus episode and now more involvement in a negative matter he has become an unsympathetic figure. He's almost made as many dodgy comebacks as Peter Mandleson.
Capello needs to have the England team on top form in the Euros, especially after the atrocious World Cup performances, and all this hubbub is detrimental, especially as we seem to have turned playing like rubbish into a speciality.
Good player...
lousy human being.
Not even
a good player. Lack of pace and positional sense.
Can't tell if serious
John Terry lacks positional sense? It's probably his finest attribute.
Not keeping up
I may be way out of step here but I never did quite get the whole Wayne Bridge's girlfriend thing. I am not saying JT's an admirable individual off the pitch but I never could quite relate to the hysteria surrounding this particular business in the context of footballers' sexual mores generally.
I don't give much of a toss about the hysteria
surrounding football myself. But i can't imagine, in a normal work situation, 'pulling together as a team much' if my boss (or supervisor, or team leader or whatever) had just owned up to having an affair with my husband.
Let's be clear about this bit at least
John Terry was always steadfast in his denials of a relationship with Vanessa Perroncel - who was in any case Wayne Bridge's *ex* partner. Plenty might doubt him on this; I might too. However, Ms Perroncel herself gave a detailed interview to the Guardian last year (read it here), in which she explained that she and John Terry were friends and had never been more than that. I believed her.
In summary, Capello got that one completely wrong, just as he was completely wrong to stick by Terry in the current case, for which the evidence is there for all to see. I won't miss the ludicrously overpaid part-time team chooser.
Yep. It does seem a little odd
that a man who took 7 minutes (ooh 7 minutes! no nonsense from Mr Discipline) to demote Terry following an, at best, slightly sordid "domestic" feels the need to resign when the F.A. stands his man down over an issue serious enough to be before the courts.
Fabio has suggested there's a principle of being innocent until proven otherwise. One can only assume that - contrary to any public denials - Fab and Terry's 7 minute conversation went along the lines
"Did you smash it?"
"...er yeah"
Morality, it's a funny thing
I've heard friends say racist things now and then. I usually just say someonething like "alright Adolf, pack it it" and it's laughed off.
But if I split up with my long-term partner and mother of my child and one of my mates dived straight in there on the sly, I'd never speak to him again.
YMMV.
But did you read that article?
I really can't believe I'm wasting energy defending John Terry, but there we are: I think there is good reason to believe that Terry DIDN'T "dive straight in there." I wouldn't condemn Wayne Bridge for believing the scummy tabloid stories, but that doesn't mean he's right either.
I understand that...
.... the FA excluded both Jonathan Woodgate and Lee Bowyer from all England squads during their assault case a decade ago.
If the above is correct, I don't think Terry has any cause for complaint. In fact, he's got off lightly so far.
Personally, I would remove him from the squad entirely. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a sound principle, but it's not an absolute (i.e. you don't have to treat the individual as if they are literally innocent). If I committed a possible crime at work I'd be suspended awaiting the outcome of whatever review occurred. I wouldn't be able to just continue to head to the office every day until conviction. I assume most of us would be in a similar position.
Moreover, we're going to be spending the summer in a part of the world where racial abuse is not uncommon. How will we be able to complain about Danny Welbeck taking 90 minutes of monkey noises if Terry is on the pitch?
Finally, even leaving aside fairness, the FA should concern themselves with picking a squad that has the best chance of winning the trophy. John Terry was a divisive presence at the last major tournament and it would be quite understandable if certain sections of the squad were uncomfortable with his continued presence. Looked at from a purely footballing perspective, he shouldn't travel and is more trouble than he's worth.
Actually, I've now checked
Both Bowyer and Woodgate were banned from playing for England from the point they were first charged until the day their trial ended.
On the basis of precedent, Terry should be nowhere near that England squad.
I don't think
he should be in the squad on purely football grounds, personal reasons aside.. Time for Capello to clear out some dead wood from the squad.
Ashley Cole seems to have become rubbish this season as well.
England captain?
Easy decision for me. Scott Parker. He's been the best England player this season. He's a very proud footballer, turning out on the day his Dad died because 'his old man was proud of him every day of his life. There was never a question of not playing.' By all accounts he is great around the dressing room at Spurs, helping the younger players and encouraging players that are struggling. Blimey, he even looks like an England captain from the days of Charles Buchan's Football Monthly. As for Terry? I despise him. The money and position have gone to his thuggish head and I don't think he has a moral fibre in his body. I wouldn't have him as captain of the local darts team let alone have him anywhere near England.
And he's got a great, proper old-school haircut.
Smear of Dapper Dan and he'd grace any football cigarette card you'd care to mention.
Scott Parker
He's not even an automatic starter, so he'd be a strange choice as captain. Though he is having a decent season for a gloriously overhyped Spurs side.
speaking as a non-aligned Scot
unless you count my residual respect for Fergie as an ex Aberdeen manager, I have no real agenda with English football ... indeed I think Arsenal have played some of the most attractive football in England over the last decade or whatever under Wenger BUT "overhyped Spurs side"? Really?
Yes
The plaudits the current Spurs side receives are a little OTT. It was the same when they had a half-decent run in the Champions League.
The press love 'Arry, and overstate the acheivements and abilities of his teams.
Hate to mention this
but where are Spurs relative to your beloved reds in the table? :)
A few places above
But one shouldn't use a transitional, inconsistent Liverpool side as a benchmark for football excellence.
Half of the current Spurs X1 are apparently 'the best in the world' and yet they languish in the slipstream of a stuttering City, and Fergie's worst Man United team* in about 20 years.
Having said that, I'm confident Liverpool will beat Spurs on Monday.
Spurs fans of the massive (Jo & Bisto spring to mind)! If you beat us I will listen to an album of your choice at least once a day for the remainder of the week! Game on.
* A relative thing, I know.
Liverpool v Spurs
It was bloody rubbish wasn't it?
Oh...
...just seen this (tend to avoid football threads). What a shame both sides were shite, otherwise I would have had you listening to Five Star's Luxury of Life for the whole week.
Re: Spurs. I don't know of any fans who think we are going to win the league, and we will all be well happy with third (especially above Arsenal and Chelsea), and delighted if we are third and Arsenal do not qualify.
We do have some great players at the moment, but I've not heard any real people (people on the internet perhaps, but we are acknowledged idiots) who think half our squad are the best in the world.
Maybe people who phone in those unlistenable phone-in programmes say that but there are, by definition, people who don't watch football. Otherwise they'd be at the game/pub/walking home rather than phoning up radio stations to pontificate about players they've not actually seen play.
You're on Sky Sports
I'd recommend it. Jason Cundy trying to engage with livid, pissed Liverpool and Man Utd fans with home counties accents. Top telly!
The only good things about last night were the cat, the continuing presence of 40 year old Brad Friedel and the fact that Martin Skrtel got a bit of closure after his nightmare at the lane last year!
A Cat! A Cat! A Cat A Cat A Cat!
Now that was the chant of the night.
Well...
...like all good, honest working-class football fans, I was at the theatre last night, not watching the game so haven't even seen the cat.
The cat
It caused Brad Friedel more problems than any of our strikers.
Captaincy, schmaptaincy
This wouldn't even be an issue if the system was changed to the one they have on the Continong.
The captain should be the player on the pitch at any given time with the greatest seniority - in the case of a club, the date of their first first-team performance, or for international squads, their first cap.
That's why a couple of weeks ago Pinto - the backup goalie who plays four of five matches a season, tops - captained Barcelona rather than Leo Messi. Since Puyol, Xavi, Valdés and Iniesta, the four longest-serving players in order, were all on the bench at the time, he was next in line, so he got to wear the armband. Simple.
And what's supposed to be so hold-the-front-page important about who's the captain, anyway? In practice, it's about as important as a kid being the plant-watering monitor in a primary-school class. You do the pennant-swapping and toss-up business at the start, and you usually get slightly more leeway when it comes to badgering the ref without risking a yellow card. And that's about it, isn't it?
It was never
much of an issue until David Beckham got it; it was at this point that it became part of his branding strategy ("I am David Beckham, England captain"). After that, it somehow became of national importance.
I just had a quick look at the list and had completely forgotten, for example, that Ray Wilkins had captained England ten times.
Let's face it — the England football team has bigger issues than who's the best at running around a lot and shouting.
I remember it being a bigger deal before then
e.g. it was news when David Platt lost the captaincy at one point. And I knew that Emlyn Hughes was a 'former England captain' before I knew which club he'd played for.
Thinking about it, though, maybe that was just because I was a kid in those days, and they just made a big deal about it in Match and Shoot.
Spot on....
....about Beckham.
It was never about 'the team' for him, only about personal gain, and the country had then, and still has, the England team it deserves.
The day the F.A. realise that the England team has to be picked on 'character' will be the day they finally emerge from this dire period.
Alas, as it's not going to happen any day soon....'Come on Ireland.'
David Beckham
I think he was a fine captain. His commitment and work-rate were exceptional and he was (and still is) genuinely patriotic.
Nobody in football has a bad word to say about him.
I think that's unduly harsh
on Beckham.
I don't necessarily agree with the way he brands himself and have been uncomfortable at times with the way he leverages his fame for personal financial gain but strip away the deals he secures he's always shown himself to be professional, committed, respectful and very much aware of his elevated position as a role model.
On the whole I think he's walked the line between what he does on the pitch and what he does off it pretty well under intense scrutiny.
Before Beckham
So, Bobby Moore. The statues, the football stand, the posters, the iconic images on T-shirts are not much of an issue? Great player though he was, his achievements were largely as England captain rather than a player for West Ham or Fulham - and that is how he is celebrated.
My bete noir Bryan Robson made a big deal of it as well.
It's easy to attack Beckham for making the most of his talent - as a brand as well as his lesser talent as a (pretty damned good) footballer.
Marketing people
have made it an issue.
People forget that, for most of the seventies and all of the eighties, the football authorities and the general population basically forgot about Bobby Moore.
Which is why our 'national icon' was reduced to doing co-commentary with Jonathan Pearce on Capital Gold and having a ghost-written column in the Sunday Sport.
It is silly that it's such a big deal here
But there's no denying that it is.
I think the thing that bothers me about Terry, though, is that he gives the impression that he thinks he's entitled to it by right, rather than seeing it as a privillege or a responsibility.
On which note, what's the betting that, if Chelsea win the big televised game this weekend, we'll have the whole half-naked-except-for-his-armband schtick again?
100% on the button
The captaincy is - or should certainly be regarded as - of very little importance in the great scheme of things. For a club side, playing week in week out, with more or less the same players (unless it's Man City, obv), it makes more sense that it should be the same person. For an international team this doesn't apply. They get together every few months, give or take, the manager picks the team and proposes tactics and so on. Who is captain is a mere bagatelle.
That said, I can't say I'm sad Terry has been ousted. Not much of an ambassador is he? Scott Parker is not a bad call I suppose, but like Archie, I'm more in favour of deciding on a match by match basis; and if it ends up being the same player match after match, then fair enough.
Captains
I know it's fashionable to pretend that everything about Spanish football is the dogs bollocks, but I disagree with you.
Much like The Pope is God's representative on earth, the captain is the manager's representative on the field. A good captain leads and inspires his team. Roy Keane or Steven Gerrard being good examples from the English game.
Off the field, a captain plays an important role too. Simple things like organising charity collections and squad nights out aside, they're a point of contact between the rest of the squad and the manager.
Many young England players have spoken in glowing terms about John Terry making them feel welcome on their debut and phoning them regularly for chats afterwards.
There's little doubt in my mind that he's done a good job in the role.
Yep. The fact is that some people are born captains
(Tony Adams captained every team he played for)
and the other players recognise this
(There was a great interview with one of the Ireland players - Stephen Hunt? - where he said the worst thing about Thierry Henry's handball in the Euro qualifier of 2010 was the way he "came over at the end of the game and sat down beside our captain to say sorry for knocking us out". Henry sat down beside Richard Dunne. Robbie Keane wears the armband for Ireland but Dunne is the leader).
The reason Terry has a status to "strip" (the words "stood down" or even "demoted" if you wish were also available..?) is that he is such a character.
That said, it's not just the Spanish (*cough* Catalans) who employ the seniority method. It has also been used by the Italian national team among others...
Not just the Catalans
All Spanish sides, as far as I know. Certainly Real Madrid and the national team (Iker Casillas in both cases, where an outfield player - say Xabi Alonso and Puyol, respectively - would make more sense if Spartacus's "inspiration" argument held any real water.)
We are not Spain
I don't see why their position on captaincy should be automatically adopted by us.
As it happens, I know someone with a connection to Real. He reckoned nobody was allowed to eat until their captain (Raul) had started. Such was the esteem in which he was held.
Before him, Hierro had been the captain.
There was no tossing the armband round to all and sundry, as you suggest.
In both cases...
They were the captain simply because they were senior players on the squad at the time. (Raúl became captain when Hierro retired automatically, simply because he'd played his first first-team match before anyone else. Ditto Hierro when Sanchís hung up his boots.)
And, not wishing to be too facetious, given the respective fortunes of English and Spanish clubs and national sides in recent years, if England tried to adopt some of the Spanish ways of doing things, it might not be all that bad an idea, hmm?
Glad he is not captain
now kick him out of squad altogether and preferably out of football too. Is he really that good? I dont think so.If they really want to make a point select Wayne Bridge as captain. I fear that this is a pre-cursor to anotherc shambolic England showing in a major tournament.
My exact thoughts upon
Hearing the news.
QPR 1 Chelsea 0......
.....the football match that just keeps on giving.
Wilkins, Chelsea, just said (emotionally) - 'If John doesn't play in the Euros, England's chances of winning are greatly reduced.'
Yeah, Terry's always going sooooo close to winning international football tournaments.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that game
was a seismic event like one of those Doctor Who fixed points in time. I was delighted with the three points on the day but it seems to me the way QPR were totally outplayed by Chelsea's nine men was the germ of the Neil-Warnock-is-Harry-Basset idea and his days as boss were numbered from the final whistle..
Phil Jones
Do what they do in rugby sometimes, make a young talented guy the captain. Sorted for a decade or more.
Terry is nowhere near international class anyway.
Innocent Until Proven Guilty
If uniformly observed, it's a pillar of civilisation. If ignored when the situation makes us uncomfortable, it's a meaningless platitude.
But...
...If I were to be accused of racist behaviour in the workplace I would immediately be suspended, on full pay, while the allegations were investigated. Any of us would.
Why should it be any different for John Terry?
Innocent until proven guilty is a laudable concept but it is actually totally irrelevant here.
Indeed
Racism is an offence above all others, it seems. Personally, I don't agree that all those accused of racism should be suspended by their employer.
Suspension
In such circumstances suspension is a neutral act intended to protect the person suspended from compromising his/her position further. It is not a punishment and should never be used as such by employers, or viewed as such by others.
Thanks for the clarification
But it is being viewed as a punishment, isn't it?
Someone on the radio yesterday
said it was unfair the case was to be heard the day after the Euro Final as Terry would have to rush home straight after it.
Nobody pointed out it was England he plays for and therefore he would have two weeks to prepare for the case!!
The FA can always be relied upon
..to make a complete ares of everything and anything. Much as I dislike Terry it does appear to be a case of guilty until proven innocent.
Compare and contrast
Chris Huhne is charged with an offence committed before he was even an MP. Although presumed innocent until proven guilty, he immediately resigns his high profile public position.
John Terry is charged with an offence committed while in a very public situation. Although presumed innocent until proven guilty, he doesn't step down from his high profile public position but is eventually, after a lot of prevarication, removed from it by his employer.
Relevance
I think it does make a difference that John Terry is actually charged with footballing offence. He is accused of racism during a football match, rather than when "off duty" in a pub or similar.
So, even though he is innocent until proven guilty it does not seem appropriate to have him as England captain.
Me, i'd give it to Joe Hart and hope that is the last decision about it for a decade.
Joe Hart
Tremendous 'keeper and nice lad. His relatively lowly start at Shrewsbury Town (his home town club) might be responsible for the lack of billy-big-bollocks 'tude he displays.
Got a rousing ovation from the Kop the other week after his heroics.
You can tell
he's not black, then (runs away)
Ho Ho Ho
I hate Joe Hart
in a nice way of course. He was that good against us during the League Cup semi-final (both legs) that I prayed he'd have to go off injured at some point during the game. On his day he is one of the world's best 'keepers.
it's a great Anfield tradition ...
... to praise opposition keepers when they deserve it.
And he deserved it
the semi-final was bad for my heart - without that dodgy penalty I thought Hart would stop us reaching the final.
As a side point to the racism row, David James was keeper at Anfield for what 5 years, and never got abuse for his colour. His keeping, yes, but not his colour.
As another side point
Kenny Dalglish signed John Barnes, who used to get bananas thrown at him by rival fans in the 80s, for two different clubs, and they worked together at Celtic.
Out of his Skin by Dave Hill should be required reading for those idiots that think Dalglish is racist.
Dalglish
Has anyone accused Dalglish of being racist though, Spartacus? I think he handled the whole situation incredibly naively - and in my view, he was very badly advised by LFC's PR team - but I've not heard any accusations that he himself is racist.
I agree with you on Out of His Skin. It's a tremendously powerful book.
I've heard loads
But then I live in Newcastle, where Dalglish is a hate figure. The phrase KKKenny has been bandied about and I know one person who thinks the lack of black players in Liverpool's squad is a deliberate plot on the part of Dalglish.
Fair enough
I'm not going to argue with your first-hand experience.
All I will say is that some of Spurs and Man Utd's more nauseating fans like to sing that Arsene Wenger is a paedophile. There is, of course, not one scrap of evidence to support this 'allegation'. Just because a few bonehead football fans make daft statements about their hate figures does not necessarily mean that their views are held by any of those who have a slightly less blinkered view of the world. I don't think anyone with an unjaundiced view of the world honestly thinks Dalglish is racist, do they?
Another vote for Joe Hart
Could keep his place for another decade, something that can't be said for the outfield players. Seems to have the right attributes to be a captain, and although intuitively an outfield captain is preferable, in practice it doesn't seem to make that much difference.
Side-stepping the issue
Could someone explain why they think Terry should resign / be suspended? And I don't mean saying 'Well, you or I or Chris Huhne would, so why not him?'
Because
(a) he's been caught on camera apparently racially abusing a man in public while in the course of his employment; and
(b) Terry's position as England captain involves exerting some form of leadership and authority over a collection of individuals, many of whom are black and one of whom is the brother of the man he appears to have racially abused.
His position is hopelessly compromised to the point where it's unclear that he would be able to do his job properly. In any walk of life, that's generally when you resign.
Retaining him as captain would also threaten to reduce the performance of other members of the squad, and the cohesion of the unit as a whole.
It would also undermine our ability to effectively complain about the racist abuse of our players which could easily prove to be a feature of this summer's tournaments if the hosts' haven't got their house in order.
I'd also like him to resign because in the last three years he's (i) been revealed to have had a hugely divisive affair with a team mate's ex-wife (this was his contribution to the build up to our last major tournament); (ii) attempted to publicly stab the England manager in the back while at said major tournament; and (iii) said nothing in recent months while Chelsea fans have hurled racist abuse around the place in his name.
That last para is just me though.
In fact, if we must sum it all up in one quick sentence then how about this one: because, as a result of all of the above, England are more likely to win the European Championships this summer (stop laughing at the back) without John Terry than with him.
I thought the FA had stripped...
... him of the captaincy because of the additional non-playing duties that go with the job - dealing with the media being a key one. On the pitch he could still be a captain in all but name and do the things you mention in (b).
Without being flippant
If I have to explain why it would have been appropriate to step aside, then you'll never get it.
Snide and a cop-out
Well done you!
I've cone up with a plan for Euro 2012 anyway. Simply accuse Iniesta & Xavi of racism, then watch as they withdraw, leaving a weakened midfield for us to face. Without being flippant, like.
Okey dokey then
Let me elaborate:
The need for Terry to step down seems to me to be so self evident and 'right' as to need no explanation.
In my sporting world, if an accusation was made against me that was made against Terry, I would immediately step down until it was resolved. I can't see any other course of action available. It's the right decent and honorable thing to do.
I don't know how to explain it any better than that. It seems clearly to be an instinctive stance that I can't explain well. If you don't understand that on that basic level, then I can't help you get there.
Where your masterplan falls down is not that you'd make a simple accusation: there would have to be enough evidence that a prosecuting authority believes that they can and should take action.
Because
he isn't very good?
Separate issue
If you feel he shouldn't be captain because he isn't good enough, then the case in question doesn't really impact on that.
Not separate issue
You asked for an explanation of why he should be suspended. I gave you one; Because he is not very good.
I also think his antics are not becoming of a captain and not becoming of a decent human being. Am I casting judgement? Quite possibly but he is a nasty piece of work who doesn't deserve to play for his country nor captain it. Get rid of the arsehole.
I'm probably missing...
... something here - do you think suspension is the same as non-selection?
Casting judgement
"Am I casting judgement? Quite possibly but he is a nasty piece of work [...] Get rid of the arsehole."
Steve, I agree with what you say, but if the above is you "possibly" casting judgement, I'd hate to read your views when you're "definitely" doing so! ;)
The man's a disgrace
no smoke without fire etc etc besides, he's a very average footballer. He needs somebody alongside him with ability to make him look half decent. Look at the last World Cup when Rio wasn't playing against Germany, he was bloody hopeless. Let's hope that's the end of his England career. I certainly won't miss him.
By way of comparison with rugby,
Delon Armitage has been dropped from the England set up for getting himself arrested in a nightclub and Danny Care also dropped from the squad for 2 arrests (drunk and disorderly; drunk driving - 16 month ban). The management approach is: you're an England player and you are expected to not put yourself in a position where this sort of thing can happen.
My view is: if you're the England skipper, this applies in spades. No pun intended.
Maybe no pun intended,
Mark, but that's the best line on the whole blog!
Best Chance
I'm not a fan of John Terry but I don't really think that the decision to drop him should be based on whether he's a hot with the fans.
What would be a hot with the fans is for England to impress in a major tournament once again and maybe even to get to a final. In order to do that, there surely has to be harmony in the "dressing room". From newspaper reports, as long as John Terry is involved in the set up, the harmony won't be there. Therefore, for the good of the team, he should be dropped. It doesn't matter if he's the best player in the land (and I don't think there will be anyone claiming that John Terry is), even if he's done nothing wrong, he should be left out.
I know that's the way it is at work. When we have to work with people with unusual social skills (and in a large aerospace company, it's not that rare to have to work with them) then the tendency is to try and avoid them unless absolutely necessary and your work becomes less efficient as a result. A happy workplace is a productive one.
There hasn't been harmony in the England...
...dressing room for a LONG time.
Players from certain clubs forming cliques has seen to that.
As usual...
Marina Hyde can usually be relied on to summarise such situations adroitly and succinctly, and here she is again doing just that.
And now the highly successful England manager.....
.....has come out against the F.A.'s (almost universally popular) decision.
Amazing.
Truly amazing.
Apart from poor old QPR and Anton Ferdinand (who both appear to have far more to lose in all this than 1. the odious Chelsea, 2. the odious Terry, and/or 3. the crap England team) and the much maligned F.A..... has there been one decision by any party since Sunday 23rd October that has either not been made with rampant self-interest at its heart and/or has been the right decision?
In other words, in my humble opinion, they're all thick as a plank of wood.
My reaction, when I heard about
Capello's comment, was to wonder if he's trying to goad the FA into sacking him. He doesn't strike me as totally happy at the moment and maybe if he's got a club job in mind for next season, he'd prefer to be settling into that than managing another potentially very unhappy England campaign?
Culture
I was wondering if it was a culture thing. Capello has lived most of his life in a country that has, on several occasions, elected Silvio Berlusconi as Prime Minister I find it hard to believe that that would happen here. That's not a criticism of Italians, just an observation to illustrate that different countries do things differently. Capello is 65 and my experience is that casual racism is more likely for his age group (and older) than any other (that will change as a new generation gets older).
I think it's simpler than that.
I suspect Capello doesn't take kindly to the FA interfering with his team selection and, honestly, who could blame him?
Could be
They're all just really appalling people and that more than anything else is why they are doomed to fail yet again. Give a lot of really stupid young men a vast fortune, surround them with a lot of dead-eyed cynics whipping overcharged fans into continued adulation, and watch it all turn to shite...
PS full disclosure - I am a vestigially interested QPR fan who watched an enthusiastic bunch of journeymen fight their way to promotion - I know the club weren't skint but it was an adventure.
Within a few months - new owner, loads of new vastly expensive players on massive salaries, new manager ditto, dismal stuff - more of the same soul-sucking dreadfulness that is the experience of most top flight footy fans
Not worthy of a separate thread
But did anyone else notice John Terry making a big deal of hugging his black team mate on the bench after one of the goals yesterday?
Of course, it could have been entirely innocent and a coincidence.
Maybe
He was just "showing his caring side" again?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078170/The-picture-shows-caring...
Mebbes yeh, mebbes nah.
But what is certain is that if the following exchange had taken place, and had been proved to have occurred beyond reasonable doubt, then only one person would have potential legal redress as opposed to mere outrage or hurt feelings.
Party A: "you paedo c**t"
Party B: "you black c**t"
Fair?
Uh, yes
Totally fair.
Why? Because:
(a) black people are an ethnic minority in this country and have therefore historically required a degree of extra legal protection to ensure that they're treated fairly. Paedophiles are criminals. There is absolutely no comparison there.
(b) it the person you call a "black c**t" is actually black you are therefore deliberately pushing hard on a deep rooted cultural pressure point. If they are not black they would not have legal recourse against you.
(c) for your example to work at all the second category of accusation would need to involve a class of people who have been historically oppressed and abused through no fault of their own. I repeat: there is no comparison between black people and paedophiles. Without wanting to be mock outraged I actually find the notion that the two insults are comparable vaguely offensive.
As someone who has seen various members of his family racially abused (despite the entire family being Caucasian - work that one out), I can tell you that there is no comparison between the two insults you've listed above, other than that they're insults. I can also tell you with some confidence that every single black person I know would tell you the same thing.
I would also note that if you called someone a paedophile in public or in print, and that person was not a paedophile, then they would indeed have legal redress available to then in the form of a defamation claim. Ain't the law grand?
Fabio and Grande Ben...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16905818
Next week, Stuart Pearce in front of the Trevi Fountain.
Was going to leave this but.....
....good 'ol Kenny has reignited the whole thing again with his casual comments about the 'wee man' (well done, Kenny, never forget your roots) after last night's game.
Two points:
1. Are these people the thickest people in the world?
2. Should we be worried, if they are indeed the thickest people in the world, that they are on such huge salaries?
Odious though the bankers are, I'm more worried about these guys.
Their inability to acknowledge anything outside their immediate vicinity is truly jaw-dropping (no wonder the team he manages are sh**e anywhere near the penalty area).
Agreed.
And unlike the original offence which was likely a heat-of-the-moment thing, Dalglish's unnecessary remarks were calculated and premeditated. We all know the first rule of Foot Club is to back your players in public but Dalglish is carrying this dressing room convention out into the real world where it is morally vacant. Is he speaking on behalf of the club or has he gone off on a solo run? It took fifty years to build up a mountain of goodwill towards LFC and establish them as a world brand. Wonder how long it will take Kenny to tear that down? While I wouldn't go as far as you Ranger, I can't help thinking this kind of s**t could only happen in football...
Goodwill?
I wasn't aware of any goodwill towards the club. I was always under the impression that they run a quite close second to Man Utd as a disliked club mainly down to the mentality of many of their fans. I think they're very much like the football equivalent of the USA. They think they're wonderful, they think everyone else thinks they're wonderful and get knocked sideways when they find out that a good proportion of the world dislikes them and whatthey stand for intensely.
Goodwill
I've been aware of plenty of goodwill towards Liverpool FC. And I'm aware that it's dwindling at the minute.
Not a Liverpool fan myself
But have previously felt huge goodwill towards the club.
Wasn't keen on them in the 80s, when they displayed all the trade mark arrogance of perpetual winners, but I thought that the club's reaction to the Hilsborough disaster, and particularly Dalglish's own reaction, was utterly commendable - football at its best.
Throw in what is a very passionate and knowledgeable football crowd, and sympathy for what they went through with their American owners (was that really only just over a year ago?) and I genuinely like to see them do well.
However, this Suarez thing has taken the shine off big time. If he's not been racist then challenge the FA's ruling. Otherwise, for god's sake stop moaning about it. The FA should take action over Dalglish's comments last night and I have no idea what the club's PR people are thinking right now. Have we had a full blooded, heartfelt statement from Suarez in opposition to racism? Should we have?
I don't for one moment believe that the club or Dalglish are racist, but I do think they've swallowed whole this all-stick-together-no-matter-what, bullets in the post to our enemies tribal bullshit that seems to have fully enveloped the beautiful game.
Some things are more important lads. Do buck your ideas up please.
A fair assessment
The Suarez situation has been handled badly from the moment it happened.
Rewind back to October - Evra makes his allegation on Canal + after the game. Liverpool release the following:
"Liverpool Football Club and Luis Suarez would like to apologise unreservedly to Patrice Evra. Luis insulted Mr Evra by referring to the colour of his skin during a heated exchange. Though 'negro' is not considered as offensive in his native country of Uruguay, Luis now realises that it is unacceptable to use such terms in England. He has been reminded of his responsibilities and we will ensure that this does not happen again."
Evra accepts apology. Suarez gets much smaller punishment and everyone quickly forgets about it.
Spot on
That was all that was needed.
God knows people make mistakes and deserve a bit of understanding when they put their hands up and cop to them.
Instead, I fear we'll be witnessing a circus when Liverpool play Utd at the weekend.
MUFC v LFC
It'll be dreadful. Though personally I wouldn't play Suarez, for both footballing and diplomatic reasons.
I thought he'd come back humbled, looking to keep his head down, but he was every inch the scheming headcase in his small cameo last night. I don't trust him to behave on Saturday.
Moral high ground
It would be nice to see the Utd fans show some restraint, but I think it is inevitable that Suarez will get a roasting at Old Trafford.
That said, I thought the United fans' retort at Anfield ('Always the victim, it's never your fault') was one of the best I've heard - understated and yet pretty cutting.
That chant
I'm not a fan of that chant, given that I understand it refers, at least in part, to Hilsborough and the ongoing campaign for justice related thereto.
Lovely stuff
You do know that chant refers in part to the Hillsborough disaster, don't you? I'd like to see all chants related to Hillsbrough, Munich...etc disappear, personally.
Actually, no
I hadn't thought of it in that way. Possibly because I personally wouldn't dream of alluding to that event in such a way.
I would like to think that use of the word 'victim' doesn't necessarily mean it is a reference to Hillsborough, but I do know that some morons regularly do chant about it, so would have to concede it is a possible interpretation.
So, for what it's worth, I'd like to withdraw my formerly full-throated approval.
No worries
Innocent mistake. I daresay many of those singing the chant are unaware of the Hillsborough connection, but it does exist.
I just wish rival fans could stick to mickey-taking banter instead of nastiness. It's not just England either. Sections of Juventus & Torino crowds taunt each other about Heysel and Superga. Lovely!
South American banter
My other favourite chant is the one that Chile fans like to sing when the play Bolivia - "Vamos a la playa" ("Let's go to the beach") - which is a reference to the 1879-83 war when Bolivia lost its coastline to Chile.
Come to think of it, though, a war is arguably not the nicest basis for a matchday song either - or is it long enough ago that it's OK?
My mate is a Blackburn fan
They like to sing:
Your mum's your dad
Your dad's your mum
You're interbred
You Burnley scum
Last night
I groaned inwardly when Kenny said what he did. He needs to let it drop and get on with the business of restoring our reputation.
The return of El Pistolero was a bit of a damp squib anyway. He came on, kicked Scott Parker in the pods, then stalked off looking furious.
Poor man's Craig Bellamy.
Non-LFC fans can look away now
The Welshman is playing out of his skin at the moment. I hope he does not lose out with the return of Suarez.
Funny incident
on Sky Sports News last night.
Capello was at Anfield last night. A TV camera and reporter were waiting outside the back of the stadium to ask Capello about his FA bust-up. As Capello walks to his car he ignores all questions, says nothing. A football fan rushes to his side and thrusts a programme at him asking:
"Can I have your autograph Mr. Capello?
Capello briefly looks at the fan. Then the fan says:
"Sorry, I haven't got a pen," while tactically withdrawing, probably realising that in hindsight he hadn't really thought it through.
Ignored the questions?
He probably didn't understand them.
Well, Capello Has Gone...
...and still the Terry/ Ferdinand saga rumbles on. Now could the FA have handled this whole thing better? You betcha.
Up here in ChillyJockland this situation would not have been allowed to fester as it has in Engerlund.
The SFA have a policy of dealing with misbehaving players called the "fast track system" or some suchlike.
Basically if the TV cameras pick up an "incident" it is dealt with in a matter of days.... no farting about... the miscreant is hauled in and punished (or not) in two or three days: "Terry? You are a vile and odious man. Racist comments, no defence. Two game ban, £50000 fine. NEXT! Oh Suarez. The same for you . NEXT".
Done and dusted... no need for court cases, international managers resigning, screeds of shite written in the papers etc etc etc... it's dealt with and we move on.
To be fair to the FA
They didn't decide to take it to court. And once the police/CPS have decided it's a potentially criminal offence, I think their hands were tied in terms of taking their own action, whether fast-tracked or not.