Entertainment For Lively Minds
It's the Beatlecast - with "You Never Give Me Your Money" author Peter Doggett
"You Never Give Me Your Money" is our current favourite book about the Beatles. It starts with the death of Brian Epstein and plots the complicated, mind-boggling, often heart-breaking story of how the four young men who shook the world turned into four sadder middle-aged men who had to deal with the aftermath.
It's written by Peter Doggett who joined us in the pod to talk about: what the Beatles wanted after the Beatles, why they could never get it, how they paid the ultimate price for not reading the small print in the contract, how Yoko Ono made sure she was there at every Beatles recording session, how many barrister's children they put through university and how come they had so little money while being so famous.
The podcast is available to podcast app users now (if you've allowed push notifications, you'll have received a message already) and will be available via this website, through iTunes and other channels tomorrow.
You can follow this link to get the podcast every week. For more details on our podcast app, click here.
Tech issue with the iPhone app
Is there any way that as a result of pausing the podcast you can resume where you left it?
I was 40 minutes in, paused to feed the kids for 2 minutes, and now I am back at the start again.
Highly annoying as it is one of the best.
I think you'll find....
....that if you've got the latest update of the app you have a bar at the top which you can scroll. I had the old one until earlier this afternoon. Then I went to the App Store and it updated. Sorry about that. We're dealing with teething troubles all the time. Glad you're enjoying it anyway. I thought he was fascinating.
Sorted
Normal service has been resumed.
Superb book
Up there with Revolution in the Head - in fact.
Looking forward to the podcast!
With this podcast you have killed...
Any future Beatles related sales of Uncut et al for at least 2 years!
Marvellous!
I liked
the twittery bird sounds
Yoko One?
That must have been after she exchanged bagism for telecommunications?
Edit:
This joke doesn't work now the typo has been fixed - boo! :-(
Hey Mark
John didn't wear a blue shirt y'know. Ever.
Lovely podcast though
Haven't heard the 'cast yet but can I suggest...
...that the Rulers Of The Word get Peter in for a column, at least an occasional/guest one? He's a brilliant writer, hugely learned in the milieu of popular culture, well used to the demands of the magazine format, and ridiculously under-exposed/known in that capacity. I vividly recall a long form review he wrote once (equivalent length to a Word column) on a Cliff Richard reissue which forensically, profoundly, understatedly showed Richard up as a hollow man who had won the pop longevity game but nothing else. Chilling, incisive and brilliant. We need more of these 850 word masterpieces
Just an idea...
Not just the Fabs
Peter Doggett writes brilliantly on a range of artists including the Beach Boys and Neil Young.
Not only that, he's a top bloke and a true gentleman. I have reason to be eternally grateful to him, for it was Peter who gave me my first break as a freelance writer in 1980.
Did Peter Doggett
write a book about the Beach Boys? Details please.
Smile! Illustrated Guide Beach Boys
by Peter Doggett appeared in 2004. He's written plenty of magazine articles/interviews about the Beach Boys as well. Mostly for Record Collector.
I Just Want to Say...
...that this was a terrific podcast. But then the general standard over however many years you've been doing it has been extraordinary. Is there any BBC arts programme where the level of discussion is as high? (I don't count 'In Our Time' as an arts programme.) So: thanks, guys. I really think that anyone who enjoys the podcast should get a subscription to the mag.
One thought: Hunter Davies's book belongs on the essential Beatles list, if only because he was in the room while they were writing 'A Day in the Life.' Is there any other example of a reporter getting access like that to the creation of a masterpiece?
I do have a sub
and it was an excellent programme-but if I keep going through the "it's announced but is it up yet on the Google Reader for my Android phone ?" thingy for the Podcast I will be driven to buy an iTouch instead ;-) which will take out the subs budget for several years ;-);-).
As a compromise, would be a big deal for a quick automatic email to go to subscribers when the Podcast is up for non-ITouch/IPhone people ? Note, I have no objection to either the Word or Apple making money-I'd just like to know when I should be grabbing the 'cast. ALternatively if any Reader users know how you make a single subscription push to your phone that might do it.
But anyway, as I say, fascinating-insights into real personality and psychology on a par with the best the Word has ever offered, and I'll be in the queue for the book. And yes, book 'im Heppo [for a column or something].
Compromise
It wouldn't work to e-mail subscribers to let them know about podcast availability because we don't know if they're also podcast subscribers. There will be a good amount of crossover, of course, but the last thing we want to be doing is annoying people with weekly news about the availability of something they don't subscribe to.
As for the "is it up yet?" conundrum, you can add the podcast feed - http://feeds2.feedburner.com/WordPodcast - to Reader very simply, just as you would with any other feed, and each new podcast will appear automatically when it's updated.
OK-but
a *voluntary* signup might work though-you have to opt in to Something for the weekend don't you ?
I have the feed on my reader as it is, but it tells me Podcast is there rather than downloading it as well. I think it's the latter I need to sort out, but selectively, as I don't necessarily want each week's Desert Island Discs for example. It must just be a switch somewhere.
To be informed and download
I heartily recommend Google Listen for Android:
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.google.android.apps.listen
Which creates a special folder in Reader just for podcasts. It then knows when there's a new file available and if you ask it to will go off to get it for you. I set mine to manually refresh so I can ensure I'm in a cosy Wifi spot when I do so.
that's what i use
but there isn't a way of loading some casts automatically eg word and some optionally --is there?
Fabtastic podcast
Fab podcast (arf!)
have a groaning shelf of books on the band and YNGMYM was the first one in years that gave me so much new info.
Thanks for the podcast
i'm looking forward to listening to it at my leisure. Normally I put on a podcast when I'm turning in for the night and then spend half the next day trying to find the point around where I nodded off.
I won't be doing that with this one. Ono. The walking shoes will be taken out for this one.
I also ordered Peter's book today. I've been meaning to for a long time, and it was nice to get the gentle reminder.
Great stuff
Enjoyed listening to that on the way to work this morning. I will have to buy the book for my Kindle.
Thanks for reminding me
that I have the Kindle app on phone and PC. Ideal place for a book like this.
A wonderful podcast
I was glued to the iPod from start to finish.
And how about Peter Doggett's "and on that bombshell" cliff-hanger regarding Dylan's Chronicles book? I could have listened to another couple of hours of that.
Yoko came out it of a little better than expected though, all things considered.
Thanks Boys
Another wonderful podcast I've just ordered the book from Amazon,really looking forward to reading it,thanks again.
Beatles books
I read this book about a month ago and would agree it is an excellent read. It's the book that has never really been written about the Fabs as anything coming from Apple i.e. the Anthologies, is sugared with how the remaining Beatles and Beatles wives would like the story to be told, and others seem to side with either the John or Paul camp. I left the book saddened, and as Derek Taylor quotes in the book,'Nothing should have to end that way should it?.' So at times a painful read if you've dedicated so much time to the endless pursuit of Beatles knowledge that is available. However a balanced and well written book.
My other comment would be and this of course is my opinion is that Paul, although a songwriting genius lacked John's all round charisma. A charmer and a driver yes, but John, for all of his insecurities and personal faults remains the fascinating Beatle, perhaps that's why. A man who was so bored with life circa 66, 67, but could produce mastery such as 'Tomorrow Never Knows,''Strawberry Fields forever,' and the bulk of 'A Day in the Life.' Music so fundamentally out there, that Paul in his competitive way had to rise to the occasion. Which he did brilliantly. I suppose a sum of the parts, they needed each other. Which is why reading this book is so bittersweet but necessary if you want an account of how it really ended.
My personal opinion, although not one seemingly or completely held by Peter, is that Yoko had much more a part to play in their separation. Although like all things it is difficult to come to a complete definitive fifty years after the horse has bolted. It will be interesting to read the books that are yet to be written after all the Fabs and their wives have gone up to their spirits in the sky. Or like Peter, DH and ME states the law suits keep on with siblings taking over the kingdom.
I loved this podcast been waiting for a definitive Beatle one for a long time. Highly recommended. And at that i shall sign off. I was only going to write 'excellent podcast,' Damn!
Oh yes!
David Lewishohn's - ' The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions' would be on a Top 5 list of Beatle books for me.
Agree
It's Mark though ...
yep you're right oops!
.
I guess I find Paul just as
I guess I find Paul just as fascinating as John, and sometimes more so, as Paul is such a paradox. John is what you'd expect a rock and roller to be. Paul is not, in so many ways.
Personally I don't think John would have been the genius he was without Paul, and vice versa. Paul inspired John to "rise to the occasion" just as often as the reverse was true. And I think you're giving John too much credit for 2 of those 3 great songs you site. Tomorrow Never Knows was a group creation, assisted by Geoff Emerick and George Martin. The song wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting without those tape loops, which came from Paul, or without the drumming pattern, which came from Paul working with Ringo. And A Day in the Life was a joint operation -- even some of the lyrics from John's part of the song came from Paul (the "I'd love to turn you on" bit) and the orchestral buildup was Paul and George Martin's work, as was the ending of the song. Even on Strawberry Fields Forever, which was pretty much a John song, Paul was responsible for the distinctive mellotron opening. John seemed to have the germ of a great idea but often needed Paul to take it to the next level.
This podcast makes me want to read Doggett's book again. I felt he was fair to all four Beatles. And knowing that they sometimes behaved badly didn't ruin the music for me at all.
Yes but no but yes.....
I agree to a lot of what you say here, and fundamentally yes they did help each other a lot in the studio. I think there has been a lot of McCartney propaganda since John's death as to his contribution, obviously Paul's musical input was huge, but I think John's was as equally huge. My view is that John was so much more than just a rock and roller and there are many examples of paradoxes in his life that made him such an interesting and fascinating man.
McCartney for instance, particularly in the 80's, takes a lot of credit for the idea behind Sargent Pepper. However, without the supremely avant garde 'Strawberry Fields', the root of these recordings began with the idea that they should write a concept album about their childhood, which then resulted in the sublime 'Penny Lane'. George Martin simplifies it in his recent documentary that Paul was the music man and John was the words man. However, I think it was a lot more complicated than that. John seemed to explain his music through metaphor, Paul I think was more musically astute.
John's awful interview with Jan Wemer ( spelling) , in which he went through the contributions, was a fundamental mistake and again part of John's paradoxical personality. i think at a later stage and with maturity he would recognise Paul's massive contribution, but because of his death Paul has unfortunately had to exaggerate his input which ultimately has caused confusion.
I agree they needed each other - and ultimately both their solo careers whilst hitting magnificent heights i.e. 'Imagine,' 'Jealous Guy,' 'Instant Karma,' and Paul 'Maybe I'm Amazed,' 'Another Day,''Live and let Die,' are superb yet they needed each other to crack the formula which made them unequaled. However I still for whatever reason am still more drawn to John than Paul. Maybe I need to join the Beatles fan club and admit my undying love!
Blimey that was good
While possibly a dangerous thing to say in the current clique/up-arrowing/brown-nosing related climate of fear I have to say that the ever-evolving Heppers, Ellers and Fraseypoos podcast just gets better and better (and I've been listening since the shedcast), and is swiftly turning into one of the wonders of the modern (entertainment) world. Quite why Radio 4 or the like haven't snapped it up yet is beyond me.
An hour of fascinating entertainment. Book ordered, job done.
Splendid stuff indeed
Though when DH asks who goes home and sticks on 'Love'rather than 'Revolver', well, erm, I do. I think it's jolly good.
Agreed
I have a soft spot for Love, too and enjoy trying to spot the component parts. It'll never quite compare with the original albums, but I must confess to playing it fairly often.
I don't play it much but I
*do* like the Tomorrow Never Knows/Within You Without You mashup.
We went to see show in Vegas and I'm glad we did, c.f.
Another vote from me
I love the Henry the Horse/ I Want You bit - superb
Love
yep me too..I would LOVE to see another re-mix album....
Guilty
I really enjoy Love. It's a Greatest Hits album but done with real style. I *adore* the ending to the Love version of Strawberry Fields.
Fascinating...
But I have to say that I have no particular desire to read the book after listening to the podcast. What I love most about The Beatles' music its joyousness. As interesting as their story is after the split, I think I would just find it too depressing. I'd rather stick with the records they made when they loved each other.
Agree
It's all too much as someone once said in a song.
I know what happened and I too would prefer to stick with the music.
I haven't read the book ...
... but I may rectify that soon. Was interested in Doggett's claim that the White Album would possibly have not happened without McCartney. Actually, Lennon was on a huge creative roll, fuelled by his time in India.
You can make a pretty great Lennon solo album from just his songs that appeared on the White album :
Dear Prudence
Glass Onion
The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill
Happiness is a Warm Gun
I'm So Tired
Julia
Yer Blues
Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for me and my Monkey
Sexy Sadie
Revolution 1
Cry Baby Cry
He also wrote Good Night and "created" Revolution 9. Not bad for a couple of months work.
Against that:
Back In The USSR
Ob La Di, Ob La Da
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Birthday
Mother Nature's Son
Helter Skelter
Honey Pie
(we'll draw a veil over Rocky Raccoon, but then you may have a few Lennon songs you'd rather weren't there - Bungalow Bill?)
I like Rocky Raccoon!
Could do without Wild Honey Pie though. I think John still edges it.
I've noticed in passing..
..years a subtle diminishing of Lennon's talents from pundits.
I still feel the old cliches are true..without Lennon The Beatles would have been just a very good beat group with a very good songwriter.
and a really good singer
and bass player
Brilliant!
Shane I wish I was as succinct as you - refer above and no sarcasm intended.
I don't see it as a
I don't see it as a diminishing of Lennon's talents so much as a necessary corrective from the not-so-subtle diminishing of McCartney's talents by pundits after Lennon's murder. Because this is equally true: Without McCartney The Beatles would have been just a very good beat group with a very good songwriter. The musical diversity of the band, for example, is due far more to McCartney than to Lennon. I think Revolution in the Head and Mark Lewisohn's research made clear the critical contribution both men played. You might prefer the Lennon persona and edge but it was McCartney's drive and work ethic that got things done.
I don't disagree..
..but I think Lennon's fading reputation is partly due to the fact that he's no longer with us and Macca is.
No-one would dispute the fact that it was the combination that made the band great, but consider this scenario.
A/Lennon with ooh say Eric Stewart replacing Lennon
andB/ Lennon with Graham Gouldman replacing Macca.
I'd be putting my money on B
I'll stick my neck out
and say that I don't think Lennon would have amounted to very much without McCartney.
They complimented each other perfectly in the Beatles of course, but after 1966 Macca was always the driving force and the most creative member. In the latter years of the Fabs Lennon only came up with songs when he absolutely had to, or in order to compete with Paul. Lennon was basically lazy whereas McCartney lived and breathed music with every pore of his body (and continues to do so today).
This is evident when we examine Lennon's solo LPs. Plastic Ono Band and Imagine were both fine efforts helped, I'd argue, by the momentum and public good will John was still carrying from the Beatles.
After that though, we see a steady and relentless decline in the quality of his albums and the post-1974 releases were mediocre at best.
Death is always a good career move, of course (cf. Jeff Buckley, Kurt Cobain etc) and Lennon was guaranteed instant sainthood following his murder. But let's imagine he was still alive for a moment, though. Do we really think he had much good music left in him, or would we have seen another 30 years of anachronistic albums like Double Fantasy or (even worse) Milk & Honey?
Macca's output has been erratic over the years of course, but he's always had that drive and hunger to make music and do something different. Often it lands wide of the mark, but sometimes he's still capable of coming up with moments of genius.
Solo work
Worst attributes
McCartney = Sugary, toe curling sentiment, lacking message.
Lennon = Lazy, linear, unfinished and lacking inspiration.
Best Attributes
McCartney = Sublime melodies, musically inventive, sophisticated.
Lennon= Honest, universal, lyrically challenging and melodically compelling.
For all the arguments about Stochausen and who was the real arty one, and who did what and what did who basically John was the bull shit monitor and Paul was the musical completer finisher. Both with amazing gifts.
I would have loved to be in the room to see how they both wrote together, particularly during the Sargeant Pepper sessions. Hunter Davies' book touches on this, as he was lucky enough to be there.
Some Time In New York City
Good to see at least one other person has time for that album. After Plastic Ono Band, Imagine and possibly Live Peace In Toronto, Some Time In New York City is the go-to Lennon album in our house.
C'mon, not only does it contain the wonderful Woman Is The Nigger Of The World, but it features a whole side of John & Yoko playing with Frank Zappa and the Mothers - what's not to like?
Beware the 2005 CD re-issues though, they omit the Zappa material.
When Zappa released his own version of the Some Time In New York City material on the 1993 album Playground Psychotics, he amusingly re-titled the track Au (featuring 6 mins of screaming and howling from Mrs Lennon) as A Small Eternity with Yoko Ono.
nah
It's crap. New York City rocks though.
At the risk of being an arse kisser...
... damn fine podcast folks. I have not read You Never Give Me Your Money. I think I really need to.
By the way, I'm a kind soul. I left the Michael Braun book for some lucky person at the last mingle. I also think it's probably the best book on The Beatles, it's a fantastic piece of reportage.
Twas I
who benefited from that kind donation. Many thanks indeed.
Looking forward to reading it.
(puts hand up at the back)
I'd also like to make a recommendation of Philip Norman's biography of Lennon, which - although at odds with some of Pete Doggett's conclusions about his later years, is a bloody good read.
Great podcast.. very
Great podcast.. very funny... and sad too.
Yes, really good
I'm not a massive Beatles fan but the 'cast was totally absorbing and I found myself wanting another 30 mins at the end. I've read a few Fabs books (including Rev in the Head) and just ordered the new one from Amazon. Roll on the summer hols!
Wonderful podcast..
listened to it twice all the way through already! Peter Doggett's book is a fascinating read
I'll echo those recommending Mark Lewisohn's 'Beatles Recording Session' to the list of great Beatle books and also add 'Beatles Gear' by Andy Babiuk if you're more of the anorak persuasion like myself.
Fascinating
Hmmm'ed and haaa'ed about buying another Beatles book, but you've convinced me. I also enjoyed Doggett's Are You Ready For The Country, a while back.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Are-Ready-Country-Peter-Doggett/dp/0140261087/re...
I agree with the sentiments above. The podcasts of the last three months have been among the best you guys have done.
Thank you!
Thanks for another great podcast and another good book recommendation. I was fascinated by Peter's views on Dylan's 'Chronicles' having just read the book. Possibly a subject for further discussion?
Loved the podcast
I have read Pete's book and it is great. Interesting to see he has one coming out about Bowie in the autumn,
That got me to thinking, did Bowie's golden years in the 70's (do you see what I did there?) actually surpass those of the Beatles in terms of sustained excellence? I know the Beatles had a significant cultural impact in the 60s but the influence of Bowie should not be underestimated.
Good point... Bowie had
Good point... Bowie had about the same length of time as the Fabs producing top quality sounds and was possibly just as influential..and did it on his own.. Did he surpass them.. sounds like a great debate.
Great podcast, great book
Even if I disagree with Mr. Doggett's description of Jane Asher as a "talented actress." (Anybody who has ever seen her "do Northern" (cf. "Alfie") should understand my point of view.)
Bowie...
Listened to the podcast again today. Excellent stuff. Ordered the book.. Can't wait for the Bowie tome..
In the Chronicles discussion
Pete says that Dylan's descriptions of places he stayed in or people he knew can't be true. He's asked why and says something like 'because Dylan researchers have checked'. There's something about that I find quite chilling.
The heroin years
I'd have liked to hear a bit of discussion about Lennon's heroin habit.
Until I read YNGMYM I had believed that the heroin abuse ended and he wrote Cold Turkey and that was it. Apparently not. So it would have been interesting to have heard what the panel thought about it.
I enjoyed
the wry dig at Donovan at the end.
And it's true that the 60s troubadour really does claim credit for just about everything that has ever happened in the history of popular music.
He showed John & Paul a bit of finger picking technique in Rishikesh - voila! most of the White Album is down to Donovan
Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones sessioned on some of his records - hey, Donovan was responsible for Led Zeppelin, you know.
The Happy Mondays were big Donovan fans - oops, he gave us dance music.
The Beatles, Acid folk, psychedelia, heavy rock, classical rock - Donovan claims to have invented it all and probably more besides.
I love Donovan and his music but boy, is he a creative self-publicist.
I find
that most of the magic in Donovan's records is in the arrangements. We have John Cameron to thank for practically all of those.
Electric Proms
Saw Donovan interviewed for Radio 2 in a small room at the Roundhouse during the inaugural Electric Proms. Lots of flowery stories and self-publicity (see above), including one rambling Beatles-related anecdote which Donovan himself cut short when he included Linda McCartney into the cast of those involved (I think it may have been the story about contributing lines to 'Yellow Submarine') - pulling himself up when he realised that Linda was not on the scene at the time. Mildly embarrassing for all present. Funnily enough, this lengthy interview was never broadcast (to my knowledge - I wonder whether it was Don or the Beeb that decided not to run it), but hearing *that* voice singing *those* songs was rather wonderful.
The Dylan comparisons
In his book Hurdy Gurdy Man, Donovan grudgingly admits to the influence Dylan had on his early music and image, but I've read other accounts where he airily dismisses this.
I'm paraphrasing here, so forgive me if I misquote anyone, but in one interview Donovan claims to have been more or less unaware of Dylan until his pal Gypsy Dave called him into the room one day to watch Bob on the TV saying, "Look Don, he's doing your act". By this he meant the harmonica harness, acoustic guitar, denim cap and ragamuffin image.
Well, one of them...
...obviously went cap in hand to the other. I know the sequence which my money's on! But for all that, Don wrote some brilliant pop songs which were, as Ward says above, brilliantly arranged. And I suspect Mickie Most had a lot to do with the fairy-dust on some of the great records he made. While Don, of course, had a lot more to do with the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Re. the excellent photograph
at the top of this thread.
Are we to assume that the Word Scruffs are just out of shot?
And...
...were there any arguments as to who was J,P,G & R?
I've given Amazon my money
- Listened, grinning, oh the way to work;
- Got to work, logged on to Amazon, downloaded book to Kindle;
- At end of day, on bus, started reading book.
Great day!
Thanks to all concerned!
I did exactly the same thing
So Mr Doggett got at least a couple of book sales out of the podcast.
...and yet, another!
I'm at chapter 5 now.
Now also playing "White Album" and "Abbey Road" regularly for first time in a very long time!
Going to have to look out some of their individual output from that time too.
It's a great read so far!!
Saving it for hols - which start tomorrow
But a casual dip revealed that George nicked the opening line to "Something" from James Taylor. I knew the JT song but assumed he was referring to GH's effort. Apparently not. Quite surprised actually.
This book should be read!
I think Doggett's book is one of the best I've ever read on pop because it shows how big rock stars are indulged and spoilt, and become hypocrites who have their cake and eat it - they put themselves forward as visionary idealists who simultaneously are unfaithful to their partners and are rampant egoists, and are actually not the great intellects they are purported to be. Yet they are somehow fascinating and loveable chracters nevertheless - full of contradictions, able to be kind and generous too. This book shows the reality behind the myths - that they all acted like shits at one time or another, though not Ringo so much. But then young men given what they were given - and the unnatural nature of their existence - makes this behaviour almost inevitable - I suspect we would have acted similarly or worse ourselves in the same position. So what we think we know is shown to be wrong yet again.
It seems only now we can get to the truth because our vision has been clouded by a wish for things to be how we would like them to be for so long. But another part of that truth, and what really counts is the brilliance of the recordings - which is what endures, and they remain unaffected, if anything enhanced, as seeming more miraculous.
It's a great book.