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Is there anybody out there?
Posted by policybloke1 on 26 January 2011 - 11:48am.
The answer is, apparently, no. Scientists, or possibly astronomers, have studied 500 earth-like planets, and they can't support life, so the view is that earth is unique as the only planet that has life on it. Just Earth. Out of the whole Universe. Based on a sample of 500 planets. Oh, COME on! What a teensy weensy sample to base such a finding on. I still believ that out there in the infinite unknown, there are other planets with life on them. To believe we are the only one is a very depressing thought.
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it would however
substantiate at least one of the claims of 2000 years of Christian understanding (and several hundred Jewish before that)
And anyway, we've got Chris de Burgh, the iPad, and Taramasolata. What more could you want in the universe?
I'm sure there is intelligent life out there
But I think – given that special relativity puts a limit on how fast a spaceship can travel* – that the distances are too great to ever be able to make meaningful contact.
*Unless scientists fathom out how to remove mass from objects
This always confuses me.
I can just about buy the idea that a planet would need an atmosphere to sustain life, but I don't really understand why water is always assumed to be a pre-requisite. Just because it is on Earth doesn't mean it *has* to be elsewhere. For all we know, there might be lifeforms on gas giants that breathe gaseous mercury and are mostly made of lithium.
I mean, obviously Earth-like planets are a sensible place to *start* looking for life since we know that they can theoretically sustain it, but who's to say they're the *only* places life might arise?
Just look at some of the extremophiles that live on earth. There are creatures which live on ocean vents where the sea is at boiling point or higher and is, to all intents and purposes, concentrated acid. Or look at Pyrococcus furiosus, which grows best at 100 degrees celsius and whose cells contain tungsten. Life exists on Earth in places and forms we didn't used to think could possibly sustain it. So why shouldn't it also exist in even stranger places, and even weirder forms?
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at work here.
I don't think anyone has yet managed to find any truly Earth-like planets to study, let alone 500 of the things!
The universe is so damn huge it's very unlikely that any planets are within range of meaningful examination. I think that the planets the OP alludes to are possibly just exoplanets of Earth-like size, but this is a long, long way from being Earth-like as in being largely awash with lovely briny, just right for bugs 'n' stuff, sitting just the right distance from a suitable star.
I'm with Bob
on the likelihood of life, Jim, but not as we know it. Whether we'll ever come across aliens or they us is moot. It's the assumption that just because a very small number of earth-like planets can't support life, then there isn't any, I find unacceptable.
Over to Arthur C. Clarke...
"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."
Atmospheres and water
I understand where the posters are coming from, but I think the environment will place limits on the nature of life, given a limited choice of chemical elements.
Atmosphere is a bit of a movable feast. On the early earth, the atmosphere didn't contain any oxygen at all; rather it appeared as a poisonous waste product of some bacteria who developed the ability to photosynthesise. Of course, life evolved to utilise all this oxygen and here we are today. We're currently altering the composition of the atmosphere by raising the levels of CO2 and trapping more heat. And life on earth will carry on, even if it means fewer (or none) of us.
As for water, there isn't really anything that has all the myriad and unusual properties of water. You could speculate on alternatives – ammonia, hydrogen peroxide et cetera – but their properties would be much more limiting. Science-fiction authors have speculated on silicon-based life forms, as opposed to carbon, but again, its chemical properties make this problematic.
So simple organisms maybe, but perhaps not more complex, large multicellular ones that can build spaceships.
I was saying the same thing to my mate the other day.
Tharggggg345. You know him. Big bloke. Green hair. Blue eye. Nice tentacles.
He *is* a big bloke.
It took me half an hour to drive round him last time we met.
Two other questions
One flippant, one a bit serious.
Do we have intelligent life on Earth?
How do we know we are the only intelligent life on Earth?
This is the root of my original post.
We only have a pretty limited frame of reference: our understanding of the universe right now. We don't know if there are conditions that produce other compounds with properties similar to water. We don't know if life as it arises on Earth is even remotely similar to life as it may arise elsewhere. We don't even have a decent definition of intelligence, and ours might be either staggeringly high-falutin' by comparison to ET species, or so clunky that we're like a Turing machine next to a MacBook Pro (sorry Brookster).
In the words of John Haldane, "the world is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine". We've only just started to tinker at the edges of a full understanding of our own planet, let alone the universe at large. Our brains might not even have the processing power to ever understand it. It's bloody exciting to try, though.
The water thing seems to me like a bit of a failure of imagination, even if there are very good reasons for it in terrestrial biology.
There are compounds
that have some of the properties of water – ethanol and hydrogen peroxide, for example. Problem is that they don't have all the necessary properties – if they did, they would also have evolved.
But you're assuming...
...that we've discovered all the possible water-like compounds already! How do you know that other elements might not combine in water-like ways in conditions so un-Earth-like that nobody's even hypothesised them yet?
Okay, as a chemist
I am going to count out "something like, but not, water" Water is unique and is required for life as we know it
. Believe me, water is unique. Not discounting life as we don't know it. BUT intelligence as we know it is an interesting one. This is a favorite of the many very clever insights Douglas Adams produced wrapped up in a joke:"Man [has] always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much-the wheel, New York, wars and so on-while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man-for precisely the same reason."
BTW, i am not saying Dolphins are all Einsteins or something. I'm just agreeing that it IS difficult to make these decisions and their may be intelligence as we don't know it, too.
(Mice on the other had...)
Obviously...
...I bow to you on this one, BJB. I suppose what I was trying to get at was the idea of "life as we don't know it". Point taken about water, incidentally - I'm sure there are a million reasons why nothing else could be like water. Being unfamiliar with those, I was just, y'know, jamming. ;-)
With your criteria
With your criteria every object we see in the sky could have life, what with all these undiscovered mechanisms and hypothesized compounds.
Try this: Hypothetical types of biochemistry
A question
One thing the Wikipedia article doesn't cover.
If an intelligent multicellular organism were to evolve based on methanol – making up 60% of its body weight – wouldn't it be in serious danger of, erm … bursting into flames?
Depends, doesn't it?
Wouldn't that only happen in an oxygen-rich atmosphere?
You're assuming
You're assuming that flames only happen in an oxygen-rich atmosphere. There could be...
It's that fine line between Science/talking bollocks again ;-)
Abundant methanol
in the environment would imply abundant oxygen, no?
Well, yeah.
That's not to say it would necessarily be gaseous, though. Anyway, enough from me, I think. Story of my frickin' life.
I am assuming
but I'm confident my assumption is correct. There are only so many combinations of atoms in simple solvents and they've all been worked out by now. It's not a lack of imagination; more a limitation of the Periodic Table.
And bear in mind, the only real variables in the universe are things like temperature, density and pressure.
(Of course there are still inorganic compounds (and their polymers) to be discovered and no doubt loads of organic compounds to come.)
Except inside Black Holes.
Where water has no interesting and unique properties at all, all life forms breathe methane and are based upon polyethylene, and Oasis make good records.
On the road
If only we could persuade them to tour there.
Me and my mates on Zvbx6lyZpZZ
(a medium-sized planet in the galaxy you guys so poetically name HCG87) laughed ourselves silly when we read what that scientist said. Humans, huh?!
Maybe we really are the only ones. Or the first.
If the universe has other life forms, then where the hell are they? Given that we've been broadcasting for nearly 100 years, anything or any one within a hundred light year radius would have heard us by now. And vice-versa.
If you time-line out the expected life of the universe, you can see that we're pretty much still at the beginning. Maybe we really are the first.
Maybe
they didn't enjoy the BBC Home Service.
If they have
picked up something by the World Service in Macedonian they will be disappointed to learn of the staff cuts in another hundred years.
Or maybe it is deeper than that
Maybe we are needed to be here for the universe to be here. Before he died,the physicist John Wheeler made a suggestion: some form of conscientiousness was needed to bring the universe into being.
You know the Schrodinger Cat paradox? If a quantum event is used to trigger the death of a cat, it is neither dead or alive until observed? Wheeler took this to its mindbending logical limit and suggested that maybe the Universe only came into existence because we are here to experience it. This idea is now called The Participatory Anthropic Principal. Wheeler was a very big guy in physics and quite out there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler
Check out the last bit of dialogue in the biog. And he wasn't even taking acid!
I'm assuming you mean consciousness
Unless the universe came into being because we were all being really nice to each other.
woops!
You are, of course, right. I'd like to fix that, but suddenly I haven't got editing rights???! Know what is going on Fraser?
I think you can only edit until someone replies to your post
It's to stop you going back and making post hoc changes to your post such that your mother never met your father and you could therefore have never existed in the first place.
I think.
That's
exactly right. You can only edit a comment until someone else comments on your comment.
Anthropic Principles
can be effectively characterised as either strong or weak.
Strong anthropic principle bascially say that the universe is this way in order to ensure we are here, usually implying some kind of direction or determinsitic process. Or a creation story of some kind might be possible
Weak anthropic prinpcle is basically that the universe is as it is and we are a happy accident of that process. I sit more in the weak camp, myself
Puny Humans!
100 years is not a long time. It takes me that long to blink.
100 light years is not a large distance. I have to go further than that when I misplace the remote control and want to change channels...
(Oh, and to be pedantic - it takes me another 100 light years to lumber back to the sofa...there and back puny human - do you see?
It's alive!
Our perception is Earth-based and we keep finding examples of sustainable life existing in very difficult environments. There may be life forms that are different to those we know and that have adapted to their own particular environments. If Darwin is correct, and if nature does find a way forward despite all the chaos, then it is probable that other forms of life exist out there in space. The big questions I have concern what causes life to spark and form in the first place, and whether there is more than just one way to make that happen. Life forms may be of the simplest kind, but there may also be more sophisticated forms that exist. We just don't know.
If we, on our insignificant pale blue dot, are all there is, then it seems an awful big waste of space.
The thing that I have never understood
is that, does life only exist on our planet because we are exactly the right distance away from the sun ?
Even on this planet, are there not places that are just too close - ie too hot, and just too far away, and therefore too cold ?
I may well be completely wrong, but it strikes me as a very fine line we exist on
You are not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldilocks_planet
There's a really neat iPad app ('exoplanet') that pings whenever
a new exoplanet is announced. Amongst stuff I don't understand, it positions the new planet within our solar system to show if it's in the Goldilocks Zone.
http://exoplanet.hanno-rein.de/iphone/
EDIT: Just checked and it believes there are 519 exoplanets thus far.
Our place in the Solar system
We are not at the exact right distance. Anywhere between 70 and 270 million miles from the sun would be enough for life to exist.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone aka the Goldilocks Zone.
It's a 200 million miles wide line we exist on.
200 million miles?
Pah! That's the tread depth on my tyres!
(I'll stop now...)
Shhhh!
If that gets out you'll fail your MOT - slicks are illegal on-road, you know...
Partly
Although things like greenhouse gases and water vapour in the atmosphere make the temperature higher than it would otherwise be. Also changes in the orbit of the earth relative to the sun affect the global temperature. Probably other stuff (I'm no expert).
Then again, scientists have postulated life on Saturn's moons.
'Why aliens are silent'
This recent article by Matt Ridley is interesting. It's prompted by the discovery of the first small and rocky planet like ours outside the solar system 'Kepler 10b'. And in response to physicist Enrico Fermi's questions: "Where are they? Why have we not picked up signals from other civilizations?":
If HG, Richard and Jeff say there is ..
... who am I to argue.
(Any excuse to give this another spin)
Other aliens
If this is being pumped into the aether then possibly aliens are transmitting messages amongst themselves which tranlate as "Sssh. If we keep quiet maybe they'll go away".
Maybe I missed it
But where was the OPs original information published? I understood that up until now it has only been very large planets very near their suns that have been easily detectable. "Earth-like" planets are much further out and much smaller. They are detecting these planets by watching them pass in front of their sun, something that, in the case of our planet, only happens once each year from a fixed viewpoint. I would be very suprised if the consensus expert opinion is that there are no earth-like planets.