Entertainment For Lively Minds
Is "The Second to Last Track Always the Weakest"?
Robert Forster's second rule of Rock and Roll (as featured in the magazine and the latest Backstage Podcast) certainly rings true. I can think of many examples which prove it, e.g. The Boss:
Born to Run - Meeting Across the River (not a bad track but look at all the others)
Born in the USA - Dancing in the Dark (nuff said)
But, like every rule, it can be broken; there has to be the odd exception or three. For example, I don't think that anyone has told the Dame because it would make these tracks the weakest:
Ziggy Stardust - Suffragette City
Aladdin Sane - Jean Genie.
Applying the rule to other classic albums makes these the weakest tracks:
Blood on the Tracks - Shelter From the Storm
Revolver - Got to get you into my life
Astral Weeks - Ballerina
Any other examples of someone breaking the second law?
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Well...
REM-Out of time
Country Feedback. One of the best on the album (which is 20 years old next year...)
Automatic For The People - Nightswimming
It *is* the best on the album...
and as far as I'm concerned the finest song R.E.M. have ever recorded.
It would be...
if it weren't for Find The River following it, which is actually *the* finest REM song ever recorded...
amen to that
...in fact it has alway puzzled me that Nightswimming seems to get namechecked more than Find The River... In fact we could have whole thread on the album which has the best combined opening and closing tracks. I'm sure Automatic For the People has to rank highly in that area.
Ladies & Gentlemen, put your hands together for
Pen Ultimate & The Trendbuckers!
"Going To California" - Led Zeppppln
"Nightswimming" - R.E.M.
"Group Four" - Massive Attack
"The Electric Co" - U2
"The Eternal" - Joy Division
"Eternal Life" - Jeff Buckley
"Turquoise Days" - Echo & The Bunnymen
and (cover your ears, Mark Ellen)
"Unfaithful Servant" - The Band.
'The Eternal'
Christ - Ive got to go and play that NOW!
Just remembered
"There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" by The Smiths.
The penultimate song on their penultimate album is arguably the best song in their catalogue.
Go-Betweens albums
I'm not in a position to comment with great authority without more of their work to hand, but merely note that Spring Hill Fair and The Friends of Rachel Worth have Maclennan-worded songs as second to last...
Oasis
Slide Away
Also - Shine A Light on Exile on Main Street
Lucky by Radiohead on OK Computer
This Is The One - Stone Roses
p.s. this is probably wrong but 'Dancing in the Dark' is pretty much the only Springsteen song I like, so I'd add that too
Easily the worst of the ten.
There's SOOOOO many examples of great penultimate tracks
For the Stones, there's Shine A Light and Factory Girl. Two of their very best tracks!
Or what about Elbow - One Day Like This, and Great Expectations?
It's not even kind-of true. It's just not true.
Some great examples by you and others, but...
If the second-to-last track isn't the place for the worst track, then what is?
(Hidden track not allowed)
Not sure there is one...
... after all, there doesn't have to be, and I can't think of any.
Well.....
In the case of The Byrds it was usually the last track that was the real clunker.
I was thinking that
if this takes off I'd start a Spotify list just so I could see what the penultimate track on a playlist of penultimate tracks might be, and whether or not it proves the rule.
Ziggy Stardust?
I think you'll find the penultimate song on the album is not the title track but Suffragette City. I don't think There is a weakest track on that album. They're all great.
There are many albums
where this rule is just not true including many Go Between albums, I wonder which albums Robert was thinking of specifically, problem is these days most albums have about 3 good tracks on them i e the singles and the rest is just filler i can't recall a recent album on which every track I have heard is quality.
Where do "bonus tracks" fit into this?
I'm sure there are some albums that have never actually been available without their bonus tracks, so which one would be the second to last?
Sriff Little Fingers - Inflammable Material
Penultimate track: Alternative Ulster
Rule disproved (again)
John Martyn
John's classic period doesn't bear the rule out;
Bless The Weather - Glistening Glyndebourne (I know we've had a debate about the merits of this track a while back, but I love it and even if you don't you surely can't say track 3, Sugar Lump, is better).
Solid Air - Man in the station
Inside Out - Ways to cry
One World - Dancing
Grace and Danger - Save some (for me).
Haven't heard the podcast yet, but...
...I will concede that, whilst it's not true that the weakest track is always the penultimate one, it is a good place to put the weakest song. The best example I can think of to support the theory is 'This Wheel's On Fire' on Music From Big Pink. A great song, terribly executed and the only weak link on probably my favourite album of all time. The Band played it impeccably with Dylan in the basement of Big Pink itself, but they always killed it stone dead without him. There are too many exceptions to the rule to list, which in my book makes it a misguided rule. But hey.
This Wheel´s On Fire
is one of my favourites on that album. At least if my memory serves me well. One man´s junk...
Oh, indeed
I've never found anyone who agrees with me.
Does this mean you like the cover painting as well?
Because that would be a nice little corner you´ve found there.
I do like the cover
Seriously!
You´re a brave soul, Lucas.
You don´t happen to consider Robbie to be the strongest singer, do you?
Nah
I may be an idiot, but I'm not a fool.
The 11th Rule of Rock
Cult Australian musicians sometimes talk out of their arse.
Agreed.
The above quotes disprove his theory.
He is clearly wrong and should issue an apology (or 1000 examples from popular albums to prove his point) now.
or....
The Word editorial team should stop interviewing such frauds :-)
...theory put to rest..
I think the theory holds little water for albums before the 90s / 00s. The best example I can think of is Nick Drake's Northern Sky which is followed by an instrumental closer on Bryter Later... oh and The Eternal by Joy Division aint half bad as well.
Now of course most listeners don't get beyond track three so who knows what lies at the end of albums these days (Elbow excepted).
"The second to last track is always the weakest,
baby you know..."
As Cat Stevens once sang.
Is this rule supposed to apply to double albums?
If so, how does it account for All Along The Watchtower on Electric Ladyland?
And if we're talking single albums, what about Bohemian Rhapsody on A Night At The Opera?
But surely you're taking a bad sample
The only albums that have been quoted here are some of the greatest albums from time in memorial, how about we do this scientificly and take a random 100 albums and then see if the second last track is really the worst. The reason that all the albums that you have mentioned are great is because they have alot of great songs on them. I'm sure if you took the top 10 albums from any week and then looked at the second last song it would be the weakest.
I'd have thought
that any album, regardless of the concensus as to its quality, will have tracks that are deemed better than others (you may think that say, Pixie Lott's album is poo but some tracks will stink worse than others). The question remains whether the worst (or least great) is the second to last & it seems by the responses so far that isn't in a lot of cases.
Track listings
This "rule" isn't about critical reaction, but artistic choice - I suspect that the rule would work better if you asked "when an artist is compiling the track listing for an album, where are they most likely to put what they think is the the weakest track?".
Logic would dictate that it wouldn't be the final track - because they want the album to end on a high - and that at the same time they'd want it as far from the beginning as possible, knowing that a duff track near the start probably has a bigger bearing on whether people continue to listen than one near the end. So overall, second-last makes complete sense. Forster writes from a musician's point of view, not a critic's, and from my limited involvement with bands I'd suggest that this "rule" does have a certain logical feel to it.
Years ago I put together a compilation album for a radio station. I've just checked the track listing, and the worst track is indeed second-last (it was a throwaway live track, while all the others were unreleased studio recordings). Spooky.
Edit: in other words, what Cookieboy just said below.
Prepare for naievity but...
... why would you put a track on an album if you were so certain it was bad, that your only concern was how to hide it from your listeners?
Surely the music industry hasn't reached THAT depth has it? That people's prime concerns when structuring an album is how to hide the stuff they know is bad?
I didn't say "bad"
I said weakest, and I said worst. I'm sure any artist, no matter how highly they rate their own songs, will have some they favour over others.
Selective choices
It may seem unfair to just apply this to classic albums with few weaknesses, but Forster seems to be happy to apply his other rules to The Beatles. So:
I'll concede to There's A Place, Not A Second Time, the reprise of Sgt Pepper, and of course Revolution 9.
But: You Can't Do That, What You're Doing, er...Yesterday (!), If I Needed Someone, Got To Get You Into My Life, For You Blue...
Sorry. It's a nice theory, and I certainly agree that it's a good place to put the weakest track, but it falls down too many times to be absolute.
It's just a guess of course but I think
what he means is the second last track is probably the best place to hide the weakest song.
A good album should be constructed just like a movie script, the opening should set the scene and the closer should be the big finish and leave a lasting impression.
If you make it all the way through an album the die is already cast as to whether you like a record or not and one duff number that late isn't going to turn you off the record, especially with the finale yet to come. Or perhaps he's talking through his arse.
Quite often...
...the penultimate track is the emotional climax to an album, with the actual last track as a sort of afterthought or encore. Doncha think?
what if...
your second last track is the opener of side 2?
cf: Yes ~ Close to the Edge
or even if...
your second last track is the opener of side 3 of a double album?
cf: Yes ~ Tales from Topographic Oceans
good point, well made
this Forster fella is obviously a gallah!
Different rule for albums originally on vinyl
Surely there's a huge difference between albums that were only ever CDs and those that were sequenced with double-sided vinyl in mind? Most of the exceptions to the rule quoted above relate to track from albums of that type.
Surely the vinyl version of the rule is:
with the rider
No?
Weirdly enough...
I was thinking about the second track on side 2 as well, but I couldn't think of any examples off the top of my head.
When I´m 64?
Indeed written and sung by the bass player, one P McCartney. Never heard of him.
Let's consider The Beatles
Penultimate tracks on all the albums:
Please Please Me:
There's a Place
With the Beatles:
Not a Second Time
A Hard Days Night:
You Can't Do That
Beatles for Sale:
What You're Doing
Help!:
Yesterday
Rubber Soul:
If I Needed Someone
Revolver:
Got to Get You Into My Life
Sgt. Pepper:
Sgt. Pepper's LHCB (reprise)
Magical Mystery Tour:
Baby You're a Rich Man
Yellow Submarine:
It's All Too Much (or 'Pepperland Laid Waste', for pedants!)
White Album:
Revolution 9
Abbey Road:
Technically, it's The End, but otherwise Carry That Weight
Let it Be:
For You Blue
Not sure what to make of that selection. All I'll say is, the case is not proven...
why
does it allas come down to that combo? :(
other bands are available
just having a grump Dougie, don't want a war
*makes Ringo peace sign*
:-)
As Cat Stevens was once misquoted as saying:
The first track is the weakest.
That would make
There Is A Light... the worst track on The Queen Is Dead. Hmm!
Mind you, it also makes it that horrific acapella nonsense on Introducing The Hardline According to Terence Trent Water Authority. Case proven! ;o)
After a short search...nicked from Wikipedia
Bayou Country:
Track listing
All songs written by John Fogerty, except where noted.
Side one
1."Born on the Bayou" – 5:16
2."Bootleg" – 3:03
3."Graveyard Train" – 8:37
Side two
1."Good Golly Miss Molly" (Robert "Bumps" Blackwell, John Marascalco) – 2:44
2."Penthouse Pauper" – 3:39
3."Proud Mary" – 3:09
4."Keep On Chooglin'" – 7:43
Case thoroughly disproved. Well, once.
Also...
Stay, off Station to Station.
As usual (Apologies to Sheev for nicking his catchphrase. Again.)