The cult of yoof won't go (and nor should it - we had it, why can't they?)

The major factor is simply that as western nations having ageing populations, 'older' people represent a significant, and more importantly, monied demographic. They're inevitably going to find themseleves marketed at.

Additionally, populations may be older, but they're retaining their health longer. When I was a kid, people at 60 were old. Now - and I genuinely don't think this is just becuase I'm older myself - many people are middle-aged well into their 70s.

By the "cult of yoof" I'm not referring to the entirely justifiable desire of young people to enjoy themselves.

I'm talking about the obsession of everyone - TV producers, editors, marketeers - with youth and their misplaced belief that people are only interested in those who happen to have been born at the same time as them.

I don't hold anyone's age against them, and nor do the British public. The people who do are the tastemakers.

Once laughing len is back on the plane with his wodge the o2 with fill with the killers and girls aloud, the Xfactor doesn't have old people on at all, the dancing programme got rid of john sergeant (is that how he spells his name?). The new Dr Who isn't going to be Timothy Spall, those annoying shouty 90 sec news clips with done by some wearing a hoody anyday now. The older face you'll see on the tv of xmas day will be Wallace (not sure how old gromit even in dog years!) that and some granny dieing in the gutter on Albert Square.

The generation gap is closing (we've nearly all been brought up on rock, seen all the shock and outrage before), the potency of youth and teenage rebellion (originally realised in pop) has diminished (even though many young rockers probably don't realise it and still go through the motions). Old gits can be as cool as young folks, older personages look or seem younger more and more (though this a less an issue for men perhaps), partly by virtue of seeing themselves that way, they can also dress younger than previous generations oldies and be accepted by doing so - there is definitely something in it. Things have changed. But the media haven't caught up and there remains a bias in many areas, sadly.

I ask you, grown men interrupting their employment to discuss pop music!!

The Times site today has a most endearing clip of a pensioner from a Welsh pit village busking on the South Bank. After six songs he'd made five hundred quid. Would Pete Doherty have done as well, do we think?

hack! cough! wheeze!

But they're also men. Terry Wogan has been doing Children in Need for many many years, but he gets through female co-presenters every through years. The cult of youth is far from over.

Is I believe the official label to which we must answer!

It’s absolutely a question of balance. I was fortunate to be at the O2 last week for Len's gig. Great stuff and loved it, as did all of those surrounding me, many of whom were half my age. Turning it around, I've enjoyed some great young(ish) acts on the festival circuit in recent years.

With so many multimedia opportunities to go get what you want, then I'm quite happy with the way things are heading. I enjoy the "Word" and various offerings on BBC3 or 4 which at least caters for an audience that just didn't get a look in ten to fifteen years ago. Similarly my teenage daughter is able to enjoy Kerrang and X Factor (strange combination I know) via similar outlets.

Then there is the issue of the mass appeal stuff that used to be able to please everybody. Things like Morecombe and Wise or Only Fools and Horses, which would unite families for the best part of an hour are less obvious. In our house Doctor Who / Life on Mars is as close as we get, but maybe that role has shifted to Cinema where I could think of many examples of a great shared experience. (Try Happy Go Lucky for instance.)

So when all is said and done, quality will out in the end. We are living in fortunate times when age is no barrier and this forum is a wonderful product of that phenomenon. That said, our generation is not necessarily well represented by silly sods like Harrison Ford in the reincarnation of Indiana Jones. Sometimes you just need to know when to stop as people will tire very quickly if we fail to exercise originality and creativity in our golden years!

Martin

Hepworth & Ellen on the box. And Bob Harris too. And Annie Nightingale. Possibly Kid Jensen at a stretch.

But definately Hepworth & Ellen. Lots of them.

Isn't this what Nick Baker is talking about in his book Groovy Old Men, in which Messrs Hepworth and Ellen both feature and which was reviewed in the last issue (rather well, I thought, hem hem). Saw Cohen myself on Tuesday at the Albert Hall and thought he was magnificent, but not sure he can be bracketed with anyone else: it's a long time since I've seen anyone of any age straddle the line between giving good show and really committing and doing justice to the songs (imagine if Dylan did that!) BUT do think that older people are no longer written off in the way they were just 10 years ago. It's presumably the rock'n'roll generation(s) moving into their dotage. Rock/pop has certainly lost any tinge of rebellion, which is sad in a way, but a whole new world may beckon...

On the podcast the age range of Leonard Cohen's audience was remarked upon. Parents and kids.

First of all people of 16 shouldn’t be going to Leonard Cohen gigs - they should be out late on a school night discovering some edgy band in a basement. They have plenty of time to discover “Songs From A Room” when they’re 30.

I would not have gone to see Frank Sinatra or Glen Campbell when I was 16. Family birthdays excepted I probably wouldn’t at 16 have been seen out at any social function with my dad.

We have an apprentice in our office, 21, whose favourite band is Kiss. My brother-in-law, 28, claims ownership of AC/DC, a band presumably shortly expecting to get off the school bus and book a pensioners’ coach trip round the Highlands. Old is clearly "not a bad thing".

But why do these 16 year olds go to see Leonard Cohen? Do their parents take them? Can they place the event in an historical context – like visiting the Tutankhamen exhibition?

Is it a little rebellion against the anodyne rubbish that they see and hear on the TV and radio everyday? In my heart I’d like to think so.

Of course I am assuming here that my rose-tinted view of the world when rock was young and the gods walked among us is correct. (I will rely on Messrs Hepworth & Ellen to tell me if it wasn’t so). Rock’n’roll was edgy. Whether it was Elvis in ’56, The Beatles in ‘66, the Sex Pistols in ‘77, or genres like rap or grunge, it challenged convention and effected change. It was dangerous. More often than not it did this from the inside. From The Royal Variety Show to Rishikesh took the Beatles less than 5 years, and they dragged sufficiently large sections of society with them to effect real social change.

Even something that today seems totally innocuous like ‘glam’, in the early ‘70s outraged and challenged the conventions of the day.

These days pop/rock – or what passes for pop/rock – is not threatening in any way. This year’s ‘X Factor finalists’ move up the charts replacing last year’s ‘Pop Idol’ winners, who in turn move inexorably towards their allotted place on next year’s ‘I’m A Celebrity …’.

The edgy side of pop/rock in the UK is tabloid whipping boy and chirpy street urchin Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse. Both cartoon characters.

Remove the threat, and in this context age is irrelevant. I go see the Stones when they tour. I bought the records in my youth, so I think I’m entitled. It’s always a spectacular show, but there is no danger. Why should there be – these guys are old; but ‘old’ fits into the new regime just fine.

Anyone over 60 can now be reinvented as a legend, an icon. In Leonard Cohen’s case it is clearly well deserved. Let's not forget however that there was a long period in the 70s when he played small venues and sold few records. It’s not that he hasn’t suffered as a result of his age – it’s just that he did it when he was 40. Back then age mattered. Rock was rebellion, and rebellion was with the young.

I’m not sure how much calculation lies behind Leonard Cohen’s new status. Given the financial crisis that lead to the tour, you couldn’t rule out some savvy management. But there is no doubt that on stage he delivers. Still, he’s only reaching a relatively small audience.

Actually want to sell a million? Get on ‘X Factor’. Want to get 10 million viewers? Eat a kangaroo penis on live TV. Want to get elected? Ditch your political principles and plant your flag on the middle ground.

Everything is converging into the centre. There is nothing threatening that can get in from outside, and nothing subversive on the inside.

Anything truly challenging, whether it is in music or TV, is now so marginalised by the celebrity obsessed media that it is rendered impotent. Radio 2 is now the spiritual home of the Clash. Selling a few thousand downloads to your fanbase, or capturing a few hundred thousand viewers is all that any innovative band or TV show can expect.

Like wrestling on World of Sport in 1975, or Terry Wogan’s toupee, popular music and TV have become so obviously fake and patronising that they have moved beyond being entertaining.

I'd like to think that, rather than a vote for the old git, the recent pro-John Sergeant voting on ‘Celebrity Come Dancing’ was a sign of people beginning to see through and turn against being manipulated and talked down to.

But then what happens? The 'old git' gets bumped off the show anyway ...

(Now where did I leave that Ridian CD?)

I don't think anything has changed or is in the process of changing. The middle-aged have ruled the telly and radio waves for decades and they continue to do so.

Middle-aged men run most things in the UK and they earn the most money. So I think it's a little impolite for them to grumble about harmless TV shows that young people might like.

Wall to wall Top Gear or Paxo shouting "Ohhh - come off it!" to a hapless (middle aged) politician would please me no end but it doesn't appeal to everyone.

X Factor etc is variety entertainment which is a format that people have enjoyed since Adam first performed "the Banana dance" to a giggling Eve.

We do however need more comedy that the whole family can enjoy and is actually funny. Vic & Bob was the last that really achieved that. What we have is insultingly light SHIT like "My Family" that no-one likes but it ticks all the demographic boxes.