The importance of clunkers on albums
In this here thread, I want to suggest that bad, or at least inferior songs on otherwise great albums are important and serve a purpose. The I-Pod's success, and the gradual shift away from listening to or buying albums in their entirety means that a valuable part of pop culture is going to be lost...
Hear me out...
OK. C-List songs are essential listening because they make the classic songs that follow them sound even better. There are so many examples, but here's just a few...
"Lily, Rosemary And The Jack of Hearts" by Bob Dylan on "Blood On The Tracks" (too long, meanders, not all that good) is followed by... "If You See Her, Say Hello" (impossibly gorgeous and utterly wonderful)
"Houses of the Holy" by Led Zeppelin on "Physical Graffiti" (unremarkable Zep-by-numbers) is followed by... "Trampled Underfoot" (classic Zep funkathon)
"New Orleans Instrumental No.1" by R.E.M. on "Automatic For The People" (a jam, basically) is followed by... "Sweetness Follows" (a thing of wonder and beauty)
So there's my theory. If you load up an I-Pod with nothing but classic tunes... say a run of "Kashmir", "Gimme Shelter", "A Day In The Life" and "Just My Imagination (Running Away With Me)"... then it all gets a bit too much. Too good. The greatness of those songs diminishes slightly by being in the company of so many others of comparable greatness. Whereas if you insert, say... "Revolution 9" instead of "A Day In The Life"... balance is restored!
Just a thought...
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Interesting...
..you have to have a nut cluster in a box of chocolates. No use filling it all with coffee creams.
Wrong way round...
.. Dave, nut clusters for me and the only thing to do with coffee creams is to throw them on the fire.
I get your point Patrick, but argue with your examples. Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts is a staggering work of towering genius or whatever it's called. A short story, a novella, with heroes, villains, victims, hanging judges who hadn't had a drink, and an album track to boot. And God knows why the splendid Houses of the Holy was omitted from the album of the same name, it would have surely added a star to the critical rating had it been included. ****, Andrew, whaddya say? Four out of five, that is.
On the chocolates theme, can you believe that I found a half-gnawed and re-wrapped Mars Bar in the Celebrations tin this morning? In the absence of any grown-up volunteers I've been told it that must have been my 20-month-old granddaughter or an Old English Sheepdog puppy but I still can't work out how they managed to re-wrap the thing. Maybe they worked as a team. Maybe I should stop eating chocolates at 9.30AM and accept that Xmas is over.
It doesn't matter whether...
we agree on what the clunkers are... the point is still valid. Insert your own choices instead of mine and off we go...
Yairs...
I often listen to "Revolver" and say to myself, "God I'm glad that "Yellow Submarine's" on here.
The point is interesting, but some tracks are soooo bad that you just wish they weren't there.
Continued brilliance can possibly be wearing, but constant exposure to "Lovely Rita" can be fatal.
I love "Lovely Rita"!
There you are, you see... one man's clunker is another man's favourite.
A clunker??????
While I can go along with your general thesis I have to disagree about Lily, Rosemary... which is probably my favourite song on the album.
Lily, Rosemary...
... 100% agree. That was my FIRST fave Dylan song and still in my top 3.
Is this a generation thing?
I still always download a complete album, not individual tracks and tend listen to albums all the way through. I don't even know why I do it maybe I've conditioned myself to expect some highs and lows.
I've even grown to love Sandinista (maybe not in one sitting).
p.s. I always loved "Lily, Rosemary And The Jack of Hearts" as well!
LR&TJOH lovefest
Am I missing something here?! I've heard that song a thousand times, and for me, it's at best 'OK'! I thought lots of people would agree with me on that choice, but obviously not. Still, when I play people "Up To Me" and go on about how unspeakably brilliant it is, I get a lot of blank looks. Each to their own, as they say...
And may I add I don't own an I-Pod and have never downloaded a song.
Aparently, Lily, Rosemary etc ...
... is Richard Thompson's favourite Dylan song. Yes, I know. I was surprised too.
I've
always done the same thing - I like to hear the body of work the artist provided to the listener, even if as it becomes familiar I disagree with the track listing. It's their bloody album, isn't it? Might it have something to do with growing up with vinyl and not being arsed to keep lifting the arm?
good point
There is a definite split between those who knew vinyl and those who didn't - the artist had to put a lot of thought into the track listing, especially the all important last track of side 1 and obviously the first track of side 2 which has been preceded by a gap of at least 20 seconds.
That one song
Most really good albums have one that's not as good. Here are some of my suggestions (sorry so much Beatles):
Maxwell's Silver Hammer (Abbey Road)
This Wheel's On Fire (Music From Big Pink)
What Goes On (Rubber Soul)
Goin' Home (Aftermath)
Rainy Day Women 12&35 (Blonde On Blonde)
Being For The Benefit Of Mr Kite (Sgt Pepper)
Revolution 9 (The White Album)
Country Honk (Let It Bleed)
And, of course, Yellow Submarine and LRATJOH. Speaking as a real Blood On The Tracks bore, LRATJOH is a fine song but doesn't work on the album. It, even more than the other four tracks recorded in Minnesota 3 months after the key New York takes, disrupts the mood completely. There's a much better album to be made using mostly officially released takes from just the New York sessions, including a far superior version of the aforementioned song. Columbia should really think about doing this, in a manner not dissimilar to Let It Be...Naked. It would be well worth it.
Anyone heard Jackson Browne's I'm Alive? Fabulous stuff. Flawless. Apart from a truly horrible song called Everywhere I Go, that sounds like UB40.
I concur
It is why 'Greatest Hits' albums are never as good as normal albums - too much cream.
Sloop John B
Terrible song, completely at odds with the rest of the album.
Replace the word
Replace the word "terrible" with "magnificent", add "but" before "completely" and you've got yourself a sensible sentence there, Fraser.
Oh well
One man's sloop is another man's junk, I guess.
"One man's sloop is another man's junk"
"One man's sloop is another man's junk"
Bet you're pleased with that one, eh Fraser? And quite rightly so.
I'm just pleased
Someone noticed ;-)
Blood On The Tracks fans:
Come on, this is MUCH better...
In fact, if you're as sad as I am, I believe that this is what the album should sound like:
1. Tangled Up In Blue - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
2. Simple Twist Of Fate - from Blood On The Tracks
3. You're A Big Girl Now - from Biograph
4. Idiot Wind - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
5. You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go - from Blood On The Tracks
6. Meet Me In The Morning - from Blood On The Tracks
7. Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts - version above; the only one not commercially available
8. If You See Her, Say Hello - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
9. Shelter From The Storm - from Blood On The Tracks
10. Buckets Of Rain - from Blood On The Tracks
Bonus:
11. Call Letter Blues - from the Bootleg Series 1-3
12. Up To Me - from Biograph
This isn't just a fan's fantasy - it's pretty close to what was released as an actetate and then pulled, just using (I think) better takes. As I said, just like Let It Be...Naked. I challenge anyone to compile this and tell me it's not better than the official version.
yep
I'm with you on this one, I always thought "lily..." was the weak link on the record and that the New York version was miles better but I think you're way off with Country Honk. For the "barp, barp" kick off alone it's great.
Let it Bleed
no clunkers as far as I am concerned on this one and I don't feel the need for one to enhance the rest. Likewise Exile on Main Street. I go for Thorntons truffles rather than Milk Tray - and enjoy them all.
Let It Bleed?
Isn't that the one with "Country Honk" on it?
Yes and Country Honk is no clunker
in my opinion - perhaps some find MJ's southern US accent, as features here, a bit much? I find it hard to take on Dear Doctor on Beggar's Banquet and worst of all on Faraway Eyes but I like Country Honk.
Country Honk
It isn't bad, exactly; just not up to the standard of rest of the album (or, for that matter, Jagger's other Gram Parsons impersonations) and not nearly as good as Honky Tonk Women. In my opinion.
I admit
when I first got a copy of Let it Bleed I was disappointed Honky Tonk Women was not on it and would have preferred it over Country Honk. I agree it is not as good as rest of album but nevertheless still think it is good, and don't think Honky Tonk Women would really fit in it's place. Country Honk has a lot of charm and nice ramshackle feel.
Agreed...
Yes, 'clunker' doesn't necessarily mean 'dire', just that the song in question doesn't reach the Olympian heights of the others. "Country Honk" being a great example...
Wonderful thread, but you're all bonkers
How can you slag off Country Honk? The weak track on Let it Bleed is surely Monkey Man: a brilliant intro spoiled by a lacklustre song and dreadful words. Never fear though, 'You Can't Always Get What You Want' is up next...
Idiot Wind
No, it has to be the earlier, unreleased, version of Idiot Wind with the organ.
No
no no.
Very interesting
1. Tangled Up In Blue - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
2. Simple Twist Of Fate - from Blood On The Tracks
3. You're A Big Girl Now - from Biograph (as I don't have Biography I'll have to use a different version)
4. Idiot Wind - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
5. You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go - from Blood On The Tracks
6. Meet Me In The Morning - from Blood On The Tracks
Track 7 is deleted and replaced with Call Letter Blues - from the Bootleg Series 1-3
8. If You See Her, Say Hello - from The Bootleg Series 1-3
9. Shelter From The Storm - from Blood On The Tracks
10. Buckets Of Rain - from Blood On The Tracks
I never liked the album but I own Bootleg 1-3 so I think I'll make this and give it a shot. I've changed track 7 with one of the bonus tracks.
Check out http://www.stylusmagazine.com/archive.php?type=7&year=2005 for more rearranged albums.
Listened to it
I made the album as described (although track 3 is missing) and listened to it this morning. I would say it's better, more palatable than the original version which I've never enjoyed. Also helps no end to get rid of that lllllllloooooooonnnnngggggggg boring track.
Lucas's version
I also made it, with the alternate LR&TJOH, and have to doff my cap to his perspicacity.
As has been noted above there is a school that firmly believes in the magnificence of Lily.... and will brook no argument that decries it.
Well...
I've just got back from a ten day holiday and I need to go and look up "perspicacity"...
This is the Word forum after all
so a few new words would seem entirely appropriate.
I've looked it up now
and I'm well chuffed, innit.
and another fast forward moment
Love - Forever Changes:
The Daily Planet and The Red Telephone are scarily brilliant peeps into the mind of Mr Lee - but sandwiched between them is Old Man. Arthur, how did Bryan Maclean convince you this was good? What the lyrics on about anyway? It could go into the Flummoxed by Pop section
Strange lyrics
How about Live and Let Live and some words involving chrystal and pistol? Old Man works fine on that album for me.
Arthur Lee's lyrics
yeah..there are quite a few times on this album where they have double tracked different words over each other: "Sometimes my life is so eerie And if you think I'm happy, paint me white(yellow)"
Live and Let Live
I find it difficult to defend any song when the first line is:
"Oh, the snot has caked against my pants..."
Once you get over that
it's great though.
This thread has really got me going...
Am I the nutter? That has to be one of the most insanely wonderful opening lines in any song ever..!
Yeah
I'm happy with it too. But if it did offend a person the rest of the song makes it worth putting up with anyway. Unless they hate the whole album.
Some more clunkers
Psycho Street on Richard Thompsons Rumor and Sigh and Les Boys from Dire Straits Makin Movies do not match the quality found elsewhere on the cd's.
Perhaps...
...a track may be needed to work right with the rest of the album, but the artist can't quite come up with the goods to the same standard as the rest, but still feels it needs to be there? They would have rather not had a clunker but went with it? Then again the clunker sometimes doesn't fit anyway. Maybe they are just being perverse, having a bit of a laugh?
I wouldn't want 'Revolution 9' just to appreciate'A Day in The Life' better though - like banging your head against the wall, so good when it stops. Maybe something like 'Ballad of John and Yoko' instead.
There's just no excuse for, or benefit to be gained from, 'Fitter Happier' on 'OK Computer' though.
???
there i was benignly paging down through the Dylan obsessives and wondering why people were challenging other people's completely subjective choices, when I saw your comment about "Fitter Happier" and felt compelled to reply.
it is necessary in the album in its own right, but if it came up on Shuffle i would definitely skip.
Just my opinion
It's not necessary on the album - it's just too much. The other songs get the message across fine without it. To me it's an example of a track that doesn't do anything for the other songs cos it's so unbearable. Similarly 'Horse Latitudes' by The Doors. Whereas say 'She's So Fine' by Noel Redding off Jimi Hendrix's Electric Ladyland could be a clunker - it's OK but not as strong as the rest.
If you are going to skip something on your i-pod it clearly doesn't work as a clunker.
Anyway it's just a game, a fun theory.
Noooo!
I am being serious when I say that "Fitter Happier" is the key track on 'OK Computer'. Not the best, I grant you. But in terms of conveying the ideas that shape the album, it's all there. I really like that song!
I really believe you mean it!
I just don't agree though.
Thompson...
...always ends with a clunker. It's like the cheese course.
Post of the day
... and the Post of the Day award goes to Skirky.
LOL!
'It's like the cheese course'! Genius! You're absolutely right... there's usually a clunker on every album (at least since he went solo)
For me, good examples would be...
'Fast Food' (Mirror Blue)
'Pharoah' (Amnesia)
'Baby Talk' (Daring Adventures)
And this is from someone who loves Richard Thompson's music more than is strictly healthy.
Well usually, But what about
Well usually,
But what about "The Great Valerio", Genius, or are we not counting the albums he made with Linda?
I don't quite get you...
Are you saying the Great Valerio is genius, or a clunker? For me, it's an absolute masterpiece, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's one of the greatest songs ever written. I left Richard and Linda albums out of the clunker list, as I can't bear to be nasty about them (even Sunnyvista).
Genius
Yes, Genius obviously. Although it follows "The End of the Rainbow" one of the few songs that can reduce me to tears each time I hear it. Perhaps I should start a new threads "Songs that you can't listen to without getting all emotional"
The End Of The Rainbow
At last, someone else who seems to really love that song. I always found it a bit strange that RT got so much stick for writing that less than cheery song... because although it's sad and not exactly full of the joys of spring, it is incredibly touching. I don't have children, but I can imagine him sitting there writing that song, wondering what kind of world he's bringing his child into. And the answer, of course, is not a very pleasant one.
Oh I see... ends with a clunker!
Oh, I wasn't going on 'ends with'. No, "The Great Valerio" is the last song on IWTSTBLT, and is implausibly brilliant.
Clunkers -The Album
Now chaps, (presuming that no sensible female is going to embroiled in the likes of this) when you're down the pub later, think of all the misfit tracks that you can. We could then compile the best (worst?) 12 or 15 of them for a belated follow-up to Nuggets. Think of the spinoffs to follow;
The Greatest Clunkers In The World - Ever! Vols 1 -10
Now That's What I Call Clunkers
You Can All Clunk In
The Clunk Machine Turns You Off
By our idle debate we may yet save the record industry.
Side 1, track 2: the clunker's natural home
I think they do it on purpose: "Give 'em a real killer to start with, then slip the duff one in quietly while they're still congratulating themselves on having bought such a cracking album".
With double albums, the filler material is often the whole of side 2 of the first LP, on the same principle.
I couldn't agree less
Side 1, Track 2 is no place for filler:
My Sweet Lord
Something
Eleanor Rigby
Simple Twist Of Fate
Atlantic City
Song 2
Fountain Of Sorrow
Tombstone Blues
Isis
No Expectations
Rip This Joint
Rag Mama Rag
Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner
Only The Strong Survive
Sin City
You Still Believe In Me
Harvest
Hotel Yorba
Bell Bottom Blues
Hurt
to name a very few.
Yeah, but apart from....
"My Sweet Lord", "Something", "Eleanor Rigby", "Simple Twist Of Fate", "Atlantic City", "Song 2", "Fountain Of Sorrow", "Tombstone Blues", "Isis", "No Expectations", "Rip This Joint", "Rag Mama Rag", "Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner", "Only The Strong Survive", "Sin City", "You Still Believe In Me", "Harvest", "Hotel Yorba", "Bell Bottom Blues" and "Hurt", wouldn't you agree that my hypothesis is more than borne out by the clunkitude of "This Year's Girl" on Elvis Costello's This Year's Model?
and...
what bruvvers, have the Romans ever done for us?
You
took the words out of my mouth!
No
Definitely not. Good song.
Clunkers?
Usually the one written by the bass player. Unless it's an album by The Police, in which case the natural order of things is reversed. I beg to differ on the natural location for the archetypal clunker though - side two track three is usually a good bet. Now if you'll excuse me I must attend to my blushes. I'm here all week - try the fish.
Not the bass player
But surely the drummer because it usually involves a large amount of showing off. Moby Dick is like that horrible sandwich spread between two pieces of freshly baked bread.
Which brings up the question. What exactly is the point of the studio drum solo? You listen to it once and for the rest of that album's existence the track is skipped.
Written by the bass player
Can I suggest J.P.McCartney?
Or
R. Waters?
Or Brian Wilson
Or Brian Wilson.
And Sting I suppose.
I have a theory that the bass guitar is the most important instrument in rock'n'roll. The stuff I like anyway.
Or Mark King
Sorry
Or Lemmy
Sorrier
God, how embarrassing
I defended Roger Waters before Brian Wilson.
Or Jack Bruce
Even sorrier
"Usually"
I knew this would happen... :-)
Sometimes it's the drummer...
..each Cream studio album had a stinker by Ginger, although Pressed Rat and Warthog has grown on me over the years.
Or in Phil Collins' case...
entire albums (although to be fair, 'Face Value' and 'Hello, I Must Be Going' aren't too bad)
Stewart Copeland and Roger
Stewart Copeland and Roger Taylor surely fall into this category too but then along comes Don Henley, so there's still no unified theory emerging here I think. For what it's worth, given the choice between 'Revolution 9' and the track that follows, 'Goodnight' I'll take the raspberry ruffle sound collage every time.
For further thoughts on bass players
http://www.lulu.com/content/1087266
Clunkers, shorter albums
There appears to be a consensus that only those dropped at birth thought Crowded House opening 'Woodface' with 'Chocolate Cake' was a good idea. Dropping that song would also have made it a shorter and more accessible album (ie, people would have noticed tracks 12, 13 and 14).
I've been wondering what other examples there are of:
(1) Acts opening great albums with the worst song. And,
(2) Which classic albums are, from the perspective of 2008, very brief and all the better for it..? For a start there is Creedence's 'Green River' and 'Willie and the Poor Boys', and Randy Newman's 'Sail Away', none of which challenge one side of a C60.
About 7 years ago I said to the wife of a very prolific indie star that albums had become too long at 70, 75 minutes. She replied, well a music critic would say that, but a fan wouldn't.
I know what she meant but don't completely agree.
1) Blonde on Blonde. I mean,
1) Blonde on Blonde. I mean, come on - Rainy Day Women # 12 & 35?
2) Nick Drake - Pink Moon
Challenge one side of a C60
Not something you hear a lot these days.
I've suddenly had a vision of...
one of those old BASF cassette tapes with the orange label and swirly logo. They were good, I liked them...
Oh yes
The first tapes I ever recorded my favourite songs on. Thank you for that little Proustian interlude.
Always
went for TDK D90's; they had that solid build that could take endless pause:play:pause action when recording compilations.
Where else but on The Word website...
can you find dewy-eyed reminiscences on the build quality of cassette tapes? I salute you, sir...
TDK AD's
I only went for the D90's when too poor to afford AD90's. (How times have changed, when I used to worry about what? 20p per cassette difference) I found that repeated use of D's led to repeated use of the tape head cleaner.
D's really were the pits
I always made the effort to save up just ONE more week's pocket money and plumped for the SA90s or, as has been noted, SA60s for the lengthier works (Caravanserai, I remember randomly, clocks in at 51 minutes, and is a joy from start to finish).
I have a drawer or two full of high quality cassette recordings made over 20 years ago, and they still get an occasional airing. Only yesterday I gave one of the McLaughlin/Shakti albums a listen, and the sound quality has held up amazingly well.
I hesitate to open up the can of worms that is the CD longevity debate, but I wonder how many will still be playable in another 20 years time...
SOUNDHOG CASSETTE TAPES
Does anybody remember them? They came in a coloured box and you had to press at the 'spine end' and the thing popped open. Magic.
45 minutes
I still think whenever an album clocks in at under 45 minutes that it'd fit on one side of a 90 minute tape. I haven't actually done this for years mind you!
60 minute tapes for me were just for longer albums that I could split into two. Of course, it had to be one side on each. Very annoying when an album was less than 60 minutes but had "lopsided" sides. Well, it mattered to me anyway ;)
Oops
And that was meant to be a reply to the tape debate...
It
smacks of OCD Stringy, but I agree!
Still can't get used to this CD thing on i-Tunes where I've got 70 minutes or so of music on a standard blank CD.
I still look for really short songs for the beginning and end of a compilation so that I feel I've got value for money; I have a playlist that compiles all the tracks less than 30 seconds, 1 minute and 2 minutes from everything I burn or download for that very thing, actually. Oh man, am I sad or what?!
Not that I burn music for my own use, to play in the car, to give to friends or to play in public places.
Honest, guv.
OCD club
Ah, Oeufman, so there at least two of us out there! I'll accept the OCD thing, I wouldn't even call it a disorder ;) I know people who would change the order of an album in order to split it onto two sides. Even worse, a friend of mine made a recording of an album for another friend and missed some tracks out!! The horror! I like your idea about the "short track playlists". I may just steal that if you don't mind...
Be
my guest.
I too have played with orders. I can't stand it when the one slowie I want nudged in-between the meduim to fast-pacers means I lose out on some themed end.
Going too far?
Okay.
That version of
Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts on the Youtube clip is fantastic - where can I get it? I was with the people calling it a clunker, but love that version. Played it three times on the bounce.
I can't agree with the idea of releasing an altered version of the album though - surely it is what it is, with all the mythology and discussion around it just adding to the enjoyment of it. "Let It Be" indeed.
Let it be: fair enough
I'm just glad I converted someone to the original Lily, Rosemary and The Jack of Hearts!
The greatest rock and roller ever
watched Chuck Berry last night on BBC4 and amongst all the joy was the ultimate clunker "My Ding-a-Ling".
This is the man who without doubt got more boys picking up a guitar than anybody else, including me, yet when he's called to the great gig in the sky some people will remember him for the above.
ps the backing band were rubbish but he shone through!!!
Oh God, don't remind me...
My dad loves "My Ding-a-Ling". I don't think he likes anything else by Chuck. He used to sometimes sing it when he was pissed. As a child, you don't want to hear that.
That's like
Liking Maxwell's Silver Hammer but nothing else by The Beatles. No, hang on. It's worse.
Ha ha!
My mum told me that when I was about 6 months old, "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" was the only song I liked. According to her I used to hit her on the head with a teaspoon when it came to the "bang bang" lyric...
Parents, eh?
My Dad used to love reminding me that I was a huge fan of Mud's Tiger Feet when I was 2.
Tiger Feet
Genius.
Doesn't quite have the lyrical depth of The Cat Crept In, but the melody is catchier.
Use it as my ring tone.
That's right!
That's right! That's right! That's right!
I saw Mud strutting their stuff on the Warwick Student Union's sticky carpet stage in 76. They were -- as (secretly) expected -- far, far better than (publicly) expected.
Mud - the reappraisal started above
I saw them at Birmingham Uni Students Union. Must have been same tour. I agree, they were really good. From the size of the crowd I'd guess they sold out as well. A splendid time was had by all.
Phew, I'm not alone then
I posted that and thought, "That was perhaps a bit uncalled for so soon after foisting Kathy Kirby on the Word, Archie. Go easy, eh."
May I congratulate all of you...
for mentioning Mud without mentioning the guy who wrote 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head'.
Woops... now I've gone and done it.
Not required
I didn't know there was a connection. Was it Les Grey? I don't the names of any other members of Mud.
Actually...
I think it was Rob Davis, the guitarist.
cassette tape heaven
http://www.tapedeck.org/