.."progressive" musicians in its broadest sense. Either you agree, or you think they are "regressive"
"Progressive" only became a bad word in the late 70s, but why should it be?
Don't be such a Stalinist.

But then is progress ever retrograde, or merely the prototype?
Or am I being Maoist?
Discuss.

Wasn't punk a reaction against prog? And isn't modern pop based on the foundations of punk? Therefore, in the historical sense, was prog ever progressive at all?
Or am I being too post Kropotkinist?

...the recent blog threads about Progressive/Underground music vs. 'Prog' as well as the various 'electicsm' posts. I think you'll find that most posters here are serious enough about their music not to care about meaningless genres.

As for Zappa, he was as much as 'classical' (your quotes) composer as anyone else who composed orchestral works in a traditional style. He didn't need 'classical' musicians to interpret his music for him - it was often originally scored for an orchestra. Check out his work with the LSO and Boulez as well as the Francesco Zappa works.

...but you already knew that of course :-)

when it came out in 1969, I don't know what is. Just over a year later we had 'The Yes Album' to enjoy, and that was similarly new and exciting.

I don't understand why you got annoyed.

I don't really understand why people lump Zappa and Beefheart together so often, almost as if it's entirely unnatural for the listener to feel differently about them.

..quite often.
"Trout Mask Replica", "Willie The Pimp" and "Bongo Fury" for starters.
Although I've always thought Zappa pretended to be weird and The Captain really WAS.

Same record label etc. Lindisfarne and Gensis used to have a form of kinship, sharing adverts in the press etc, mainly thru' both being on (the famous) Charisma label. No doubt sound economics, but it grouped then alongside each other in my minds eye. (Can't say I ever muddled them up, mind, but the idea of Genesis covering Fog on the Tyne is not without appeal.)

..The 'Farne having a crack at "The Return Of The Giant Hogweed"

There are certain bands who do definitely belong in a genre we know as 'prog rock' and there are some that could possibly be included but we are not so sure. Is krautrock a foreign subsidiary of prog rock? We need a diagram of genres and movements - there was a good one of modern art I saw somewhere in the form of a tree showing what goes where with isms and what connects to what. Then again there's masses of music we could call progressive, but it's not all 'prog rock'. I don't really think of Zappa and Beefheart as prog rock either. OK their music was clearly progressive, but then so was a lot of The Beatles output you could say. I agree Zappa and Beefheart are not really categorisable (I wouldn't lump them together either) but I wouldn't get too upset about someone calling them prog, and anyway prog is just a handy, convenient label like most other journalistically developed names that stick.

..there, I've said it.

...and I'll say it again - one of my favourite Word reviews was by Heppo in (guessing) March 06 of a prog compilation. A real classic, in the style of stern teacher and class, which sadly has been handed on to other readers now. Photocopy / scan anyone?

...that so many generalisations get thrown around whenever the subject 'prog' comes up? And why assume that 'most' prog lovers wouldn't have listened to Zappa or Beefheart? In my experience, this is FAR from true as any 'prog' site like Progressive Ears or Prog Archives would prove, where both are discussed by fans on a regular basis.

Also why is it that solos are alright when it is Frank Zappa but not when it's a 'prog' band? Zappa's stuff is far more 'twiddly' and 'noodly' than most prog I know...and I have lots of Zappa albums and love them (can't take that Synclavier stuff though).

For the record I agree Zappa and Beefheart aren't really 'prog' but nor are they any other specific genre, really.

Oh but they are, they are.

As were The Incredible String Band, Michael Chapman, Quintessence, Gnidrolog, Dave Mason, Traffic, Spooky Tooth and countless others.

What we listened to in the purple period from 1969 to 1973 or thereabouts was progressive MUSIC , the 'rock' suffix was an add-on.

'Progressive' was not a genre, it was an attitude, a desire to go further, explore new subject matters, new instruments, new arrangements and what not, that's all.

Mmmmmmm, aural heaven almost guaranteed.

at least as far as Zappa's concerned, when you say:

"I don't believe most of the niminy-piminy whimsical prog-lovers would ever have listened to either of these two who really need two separate categories all of their own."

Most of my prog-loving pals around 71-74, like myself, adored Frank Z's records along with all the usual suspects. Beefheart was never proggist - never really straying too far from his mutant blues, but Frankie Z was proggist, jazzist, avant-gardist, rockist, and anything else that took his gargantuan fancy.