Entertainment For Lively Minds
Have i missed the point
Posted by Damon on 7 October 2009 - 10:21pm.
Much as i get, if not always agree with, the obsessions about obscure stuff on this site. I am not interested in the slightest in anybody's commute to work, am I the only one?
- More from Damon.
- Login or register to post comments
-
Yes
.
I am amazed
That is the most popular strand, should it not be on the Daily Mail site or something.
read around
the posts you're not interested in - problem solved.
It's a conversation
It goes where conversations go. If nobody's interested, it will get no response.
I was thinking the very same this morning
when I left the house and walked a few hundred yards through a leafy glade until I got to the station where I then boarded an oh so crowded train that eventually arrived at its destination an hour late. I was still pondering the subject when I hopped on a bus for a brief journey to the office before settling down for a fairly uneventful day.
It's called showing an interest in other people
Is that a bad thing?
Although it would be nice if there were a facility on the blog
to flag a thread as "I really don't care about this thread. Just make it disappear for ever from my view of the blog".
A sort of half-way house 'twixt the BLOG and TRACK views.
Fraser? Any thoughts?
Not really
I've considered it previously, but such systems don't actually tend to work - people actually tend to re-examine threads they've "shut down" more than they do the threads they keep open. It's simply an under-used, system-intensive hack in the end, one that serves little real purpose.
A vaguely related suggestion
The number of threads on the front page of the blog seems to depend on the total number of lines taken up rather than on the on the number of new blog entries. If this is the case, could you set it to the latter - say, 15 entries - so that two or three entries at the bottom don't get bumped to page 2 as soon as a long entry appears? Sometimes things seem to disappear from page 1 before even people who check in here regularly have had time to see them.
Post Numbers
The number of posts on each page is always the same, irrespective of length - it's 15, the number you suggest. I could increase this, but I think 15 is a happy medium between ease of access to content and page loading time based on average bandwidth.
Aha!
Sorry. It just seemed that sometimes stuff disappeared faster than new stuff was arriving. As you were, etc.
To be fair though, Archie
it doesn't really take much time or effort to click on to page two just to check, does it? :-)
Page 2?
Good God, no. There be dragons.
or maybe...
I would prefer a more positive "opt-in" approach where the main blog appears as it does now but it would be nice if the track page contained not only threads that we've joined in but also ones that we know we would like to keep track of but have nothing useful to say at the moment (perhaps colour coded). If I want to return to a thread I'm interested in it can be quite hard to find it if it hasn't made the best sellers chart.
Good idea
I occasionally make a token contribution to an interesting thread solely to add it to my TRACK list.
Some way of marking a thread as 'add to my TRACK list' would be nice
(I believe this is called 'feature creep')
Keeping Track
Does the "add to favourites" option not achieve this?
add to favourites option
sorry I am blind but never seen this help please?
Add to Favourites
It's at the foot of each main post.
I was being blind thanks
for those who are equally myopic any post you "favourite" is then shown on your "my account page" under..... "My favourites"
The 'My Favourites' link
This would be perfect if it were below the TRACK item on the STIMPY menu; easy, one click access to all the threads I want to follow.
Fraser? Any chance?
Good idea
Unfortunately the software that allows me to personalise those links (so that you track *your* posts only) doesn't seem to work in the same way with the favourites code. I'll work on that.
I spoke too soon
Looks like I got it working. The 'My favourites' link should now be visible.
Now THAT'S what I call responding to customer demand!
Thanks Fraser. Have this tasty Platypus steak on me
Well....
Well, I'd never noticed that before - I think it's the position after all the facebook etc links that, even if I'd seen it I wouldn't have realised what it was for.
I've tried it now and it does sort of do what I want but I think the I would use it more if the flagged thread appeared on the "Track" page.
Your stats presumably give you a good idea about how people use the site but I know that, after opening the Blog page I go straight to the Track link before I read any of the new blogs.
Having said all that, most web forums are awful to use. The Word forum is excellent and the track feature is a bit of a gem it's like using usenet but without the idiots!
Another tracker here
The "recently updated" sidebar is useful, though, too.
Now, about those arrows....
Those Arrows
They're probably staying. Although I'll eventually them less prominent - they're currently vivid to get people used to the idea that they're there.
Three cheers
for Mr Lewry!
Hip hip...
What reasoning are you using to continue them?
There have been many eloquent arguments put forward regarding their sneaky divisiveness, enough to suggest that most people are indifferent at best, and more likely against them. As many people have pointed out, there is a danger that use of the arrows will inhibit more interesting and enlightening debate, which is surely the raison d'etre of the blog.
Would you not consider (ironically) holding a Massive vote on this?
*edit* I hadn't read Sheev's post before adding mine; it's clear that our sentiments are basically the same.
There's already been a vote
And it came out against the arrows.
To be honest
I would expect it to. Online polls on subjects like this are dominated by those who feel negatively about the subject of the poll. What will tell me whether they're useful or not is how people actually use them, and in what kind of numbers.
"Useful" how?
Posts get negged as a joke. Posts get negged for calmly and cogently disagreeing with someone's opinion. Posts get negged for - presumably "boringly" - simply setting key facts straight. Posts get negged for...well, just because.
All that the arrows - or, more specifically, the down arrows - seem to be "useful" for is for showing that we can all act like children when we want to (and, yes, I've done it too).
I'm fairly sure that most people post to this blog because it's not the comments box of a Daily Mail story about cross-dressing cagefighters on benefit, but newcomers could be forgiven for doing a double-take and wondering where they are.
I'm really puzzled by why you want this experiment to continue. If it's "useful", why aren't the dozens of negative comments about it in various threads equally "useful" when it comes to deciding whether the arrows should stay or go? As a Usenet old hand since the mid-Nineties, I'm probably one of the thickest-skinned regulars around here, but even I have opted out of at least one thread after being negged for a short reply that was as relevant as it was innocuous. I was more puzzled than affronted, but my reaction was "Pfff. Why bother?" Isn't knowing that "useful" too?
With the revamp, you were very keen to make the site more user-friendly, with easier-to-read fonts, and so on. No problem with that at all. But shouldn't it be equally important to make the blog easier - and more comfortable - to participate in, rather than more daunting and divisive?
"useful"
in the sense that that people enjoy using them, and that they help as a moderation tool in helping more posts adhere to our posting guidelines. At the moment, there's no evidence that they're making things daunting and divisive, and as for the negative comments, I never said they weren't useful - merely that they were expected.
If it eventually appears that they don't work, that they're a barrier to participation, then they'll go. If it appears only the Down arrow should go, then maybe we'll just retain the Up.
But I'd like to persevere for the time being, rather than kill them before people have got used to them - and while more people are using them every day, this process still has a way to go.
And if it turns out that we should switch them off, then that'll be perfectly fine with me. It's the nature of the web - you throw stuff up there, you keep the stuff that works and you forget the rest. No problem, no sleep lost. But I'd prefer to give things every chance to succeed: it's in the longer term where the value of anything is proved, - or otherwise - not in the immediate wake of its implementation.
But the vote was flawed
It was a simple yes or no. I would happily keep the up arrow but couldn't vote for that. And, over time, I'm not seeing too much use of the down arrow so am becoming less bothered. It is, probably, too early to tell.
I find them annoying
The down arrow in particular enables the anonymous "boo" which seems to me to run counter to the general spirit of this place.
If you disagree with what someone has posted, please explain why.
"Add to Favourites" versus "Track"
That link was added (quietly) fairly recently. They're separate because they're different things - one keeps a note of updates to threads you're actively chosen to be involved in, one is more like a simple bookmarking device - and for people who prefer one method to the other, it's less confusing to keep them separate, while for people who'd like to use both it's anonly other click or two to keep updated.
May I enquire - why are the arrows
"probably staying"?
I am IT clueless - so don't know if having introduced them - it would be more problematical to remove them
However - most comment about the arrows is negative. Particularly negative about the negative arrows.
The most positive comments about the arrows has been to suggest keeping the positive arrow.
Otherwise comment is either negative - or, at best, mildly indifferent.
Does not strike me as a compelling reason to retain them.
A nation speaks
You might have missed this thread while you were away, Fraser. And also this one.
I think the results are as close to a consensus as you're ever likely to get around here.
Tell you what: I'll learn to love Trebuchet if you dump the arrows. Deal?
what is this "concensus" that you speak of
Archie is it some sort of Spanish dance or some grim Prog-Jazz out-fit the grey beards round here get dreamy eyed about?
not all of us do
I was tempted for comedy value to "neg" this - but as you can see there are a few of us who don't love it.
(I posted above and then saw on refresh that there are a few like-minded chatterboxes)
Please Fraser, ditch the arrows
they just seem so at odds with everything good about The Word.
Why?
If we had a star system, whereby moderators arbitrarily gave posts a marking out of five that no-one else could do anything about, then yes, that would be un-Word-like. But this is hardly that, is it? It's the opposite.
But...
anonymous lurkers are arbitrarily marking people's threads and posts that the contributor can do nothing about.
It just offers a chance for people to be negative without even explaining or discussing why they might not agree with something written.
Or you get the Bargepole effect where people are automatically minusing anything he writes just because, well, it's him!
This is not a "I hate change me" feeling, I think generally the site is great and the tracking, updating and favourite tweaks have been a big improvement - but sorry, not the arrows.
"who was that ?"
Yes, I think the anonymity encourages/enables negativity.
I think lurkers
are just readers and that calling them lurkers is probably more disparaging than the occasional + or - score on a post. There is nothing wrong with people reading a post and having a view on it if they don't post.
I read this site for a couple of months before I had the courage to post something. It was intimidating especially with all the sub-editors posting(should the hyphen be there?)
And I like to think that this site has more than the 100 - 200 or so regular posters reading this stuff.
I don't mind the term "lurker"
I have posted elsewhere as "Howard Wall" as a representative of thos of us who lurk. I don't think it is disparaging - to me, it seems to be a standard descriptive term for people who read but don't write.
There's nothing in the wikipedia entry to suggest it is a pejorative term.
The Lurkers
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - of course I wasn't being disparaging about people who only read the Blog - I meant those that might employ the old minus button without commenting at all.
Maybe its me
but lurkers always sounds a little like those that don't belong (and not really a Word blog thing but a forum thing in general). I am probably being a little over sensitive :o)
I still think that the minus button (and his more popular relation, the positive button) are a useful input from people who don't join in the blogging but read the blogs. Its a way of capturing opinion. The minus is really only useful (to me at least) when I read something that is either rude or oafish and therefore doesn't deserve comment beyond that. I think I have used it thus twice since it arrived.
You're brave Lee
I'll give you that - using a smiley face and admitting to using the minus buttons...fair play to you!
the smiley face
jarred with me a little. I used it to demonstrate a lightness of tone in my response as I was guilty of being slightly overbearing on my response to the word lurker. Bloody web etiquette is a nightmare though...
If more people
used the smiley thing I'm sure there would be far less misunderstanding on forums. I'm for the smiley!
Alternatively
I've read both threads, but my stats show that the buttons being used more and more every day.
Readers putting a toe in the water maybe?
Strikes me as a positive.
Could be...
I'm actually pretty pleased with the way the arrows are being used. Generally speaking, people aren't being marked down simply by those who disagree with them, or up by those who don't. Instead, well-considered, informative, well-written posts are being rewarded, while the irrelevant, inappropriate and ill-considered are being marked down. And that was the point in the first place - to try and introduce a system that encouraged thoughtful, well-rounded posts.
If it becomes clear over time that people don't use the system, or that they do but there are no tangible benefits, then we'll probably take it down. But I'd like to persevere with it because I think it could be a useful way to help keep the conversation at a high standard.
But this smacks
of an academic, quasi-elitist approach where the forms of expression are apparently being engineered to fit a certain 'ideal'. People have different styles of communicating and reasons for being on the blog. Not all will have the resources and/or time to compose and reflect on whether their post is sufficiently 'thoughtful' or 'well-rounded'; some may prefer the spontaneity of the witty or pithy rejoinder. If you are suggesting that the arrows are affecting how people respond, the parameters of expression will inevitably become narrower.
Isn't this meant to be an open, friendly place,? Isn't it meant to be fun?
Yes it is,
And I don't see how the arrows are changing that. I also imagine that both "witty" and "pithy" will continue to be received well. And if the parameters of expression getting narrower means that the posting guidelines we ask people to adhere to (not double-posting, keeping things succinct, not being rude, not POSTING IN CAPS, etc etc) are followed more closely, than we'll happily accept that too. And yes, of course we have an "ideal" - every web community does. Is why we have those guidelines in the first place.
And finally, if the arrows make life on the blog miserable, then they'll be removed. But I'd like to see how it develops before rushing into such decisions. I hope that's not unreasonable.
Oops
I didn't realise that keeping things succinct was a posting guideline.
That's a real problem for me cos I am not good at being succinct. I think it was Philip Larkin who apologised for writing a long letter saying he didn't have time to write a short one.
The options are post on message boards semi stream of consciously (with maybe a glance or two back over things and a last minute spellcheck) or not post at all. To really craft the posts to shot perfect haiku-like bullets would make doing so impossible to fit into my life.
As for up down arrows, I don't like them for reasons I've mentioned in threads that have been seen by you Mr Lewry and I also understand you're decision to wait to appraise the functioning of the arrows. But from what I've seen (and I don't think I've been negged much strangely so its not personal upsetness) the arrows are not generally used but when they are used they do neg people for confusing things, and they upset the people who are negged making it more likely for them to be rude/defensive.
See what I mean re: succinct ;-)
Your post
Is perfectly succinct. The ones we're more concerned about are the 1500 word blog posts that no-one can be bothered to read simply because of their length, and that push other peoples' contributions further down the page than they probably deserve to be.
no one has
ever called me succinct before.
Oddly that has really made my day.
If you're in stats mode, Fraser
Can you compare (a) the total number of different posters, and (b) the total number of new posters over, say, the last month sans arrows and the first month with them?
I have a feeling the fear of "getting negged" may be very off-putting for people who would like to get involved here but may be a bit nervous - for their own perfectly good reasons - about taking the plunge. But if you have figures that show otherwise....
Archie I moved by your trust in the unambiguous
nature of stats :)
Stats
I haven't examined any specific posting patterns since the +/- introduction, but overall traffic from both new and old readers - I hate the term "users" - is significantly up since the new design went online. I wouldn't attribute this to the arrows for a second, but it appears we've done something right, somewhere along the line.
I like it here
I like the fact that someone will post a question about "what's your commute" - it seems very friendly and personal without being intrusive.
Also I enjoy the balance of these forums - sometimes about music, sometimes about TV or films or football, usually there's something I can relate to and respond to.
I tend to be very musically anal and want to know why everyone doesn't like what I like, proving that at the age of 55 I haven't progressed much in 40 years.
So I love it here because in a way it brings me down to earth.
As someone above said, if you don't like it, go somewhere else, or ignore it, or maybe get a life somewhere else.
It's only natural
If you spend a good amount of time on a website, it's only natural to want to know more about those you're sharing time with. Asking questions about their commute, for instance, enables you to build a picture of the other people, giving them something of a real-world presence without having to ask questions that - as you say - are actually invasive.
The technical term...
for items of this type is "bonding threads", I'm given to understand. (Understanding that results from having just made it up, that is.)
I'm all for them. My favourite breakfast condiment is Daddies Sauce, near the sausage but kept well clear of the beans. Yours?
Pepper
or maybe salt.
But Archie...
Daddies is all very well - but in a world in which the mighty HP also exists, Daddies is surely nothing more than a very poor second?
Agree with you about sausage/bean proximity issues though.
Where do you stand on breakfast bread? Fried or toasted?
Fried
But squeezed firmly between thick wodges of kitchen paper, pre-plating, to achieve core strategic decholesterolisation outcomes.
Good man.
But where's the fun, without the fat?
HP I'm afraid
and I'm not fussy where it goes. Within reason.
Urgh!
An FEB should be kept free of all such condiments - no salt, no pepper, no sauce, no Elvis, no Beatles nor Rolling Stones.
(although I did have a bit of sausage with some of that new-fangled Reggae Reggae Sauce' on it the other day and it was mighty fine if a little too spicy to start the day)
Reggae Reggae
HP with sugar and paprika. Say it ain't so.
On the subject of 'spicy'
I commend to The Massive the HOT Peri-Peri potato chip marketed by Nando's*.
Hot enough to make my scalp sweat.**
*Cue my favourite ABBA joke - punchline: "Can you see the queue for Nando's?"
**This is a good thing.
Depends
Ketchup for sausage (unless there's an egg involved, then its HP...)
HP for Bacon.
I find..
that when I have a hill of beans on my brekkie plate, I don't need any viscous condiment. I have all the heinz tomato flavouring I could ever desire.
As for brown sauce...that's just thickened vinegar isn't it?
I've come across this
heresy before "oh why do need ketchup when you've got bean juice" utter errant nonsense they are 2 seperate and wonderful liquids which combine to enhance your meal. Oh and brown sauce is a wonderful melange of exotic fruit, spices and erm flour...
Perhaps you should meet..
my local FPO who often devours beans-on-toast with cheese and topped off with that vinegary taste sensation.
But you and I know
that problems about breakfast condiments don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy Word...
but ketchup on bacon
would be one of your rasher decisions
The brown sauce
should be on the sausage, mushrooms and the egg, but nowhere near the bacon.
As an officially chartered geek
I think I'm fairly anal anyway but one thing I love about this place is that people will ask the most inconsequential questions or share the most fleeting of thoughts that will connect with people. Remember My Night With Of Shame With A Fray Bentos Pie? I loved that thread.
It's a bit like being around a table in a pub with your mates (you know, the kind of pubs that do decent beer and you can hear conversation instead of having your ears blasted by the too-loud and not very good jukebox), where someone will say something stupid and eveyone else just runs with it. Because it's fun. There's banter, a few things you find out that you didn't know and, because everyone's basiclally a mate, very little actual unpleasantness. Sometimes the conversation is about music, sometimes it isn't. That's why I like it here.
Another answer to the OP's original question
Yes, I think you have missed the point, by quite a distance. No matter, the great thing about this blog is that you can start your own thread, about anything you like. If people like it, they'll add to it.
Precisely...
I was very moved by the number of replies my thread about sebaceous cyst removal received.
See you at the love in
Couldn't agree more. I posted a blog asking for easy food ideas the other week and got lots of splendid and friendly responses. I could just as easily have wandered around various cooking-related sites, but asking the collective is a much more pleasurable way to do it.
con on that subject
here's my beetroot soup recipe
http://living4pleasurealone.blogspot.com/2009/09/taking-beet-route-they-...
Hang on...
...what did you have in the end?
All of 'em
I have filed away all of the suggestions and will be working my way through the more appealing ones, reporting back whenever there is a signal success.
On balance, I think...
I prefer posts about dinner ideas and commuting to those about the second track on the A side of Yes' 4th album...*
It is just sharing ideas with like-minded people....and more importantly, I can *read* about music and film (although perhaps not as in detail as fandom can cover...) BUT I can't always read about other people's real lives. The commuter thread was really poignant and genuinely made me think about people all over the world coming here to The Word to share their thoughts on anything - and everything...
* - I don't even know if they *made* a 4th record, but still...(couldn't help a muso reference, could I?)
the law is Red sauce for sausages
Brown for bacon. Anything else is heresy the sauces in question can only be Heinz and Hp to say otherwise is clearly nonsense.
Oh and fried eggs are horrid.
agree entirely
except brown for bangers, red for bacon and fried eggs are yummy.
just stay still while
we tie you to this huge pile of wood and now where's my lighter...
"The love of tinned tomatoes
is the route of all evil"
Zebediah 4:20
Guy Clark says...
..."Home Grown Tomatoes".
Eggs are evil
and all ketchup is nonsense. Though I would recomend adding tabasco to your beans when you make them.
In fact, the ideal beans on toast should be a tin's worth of spiced-up beans poured over 3 slices of cheese covered toast, topped with more cheese. This is heaven in pulse form.
142 replies to the commuting thread
seem to indicate that quite a few people were interested in other contributor's journeys to work.
The Word magazine doesn't just stick to music so why should the Blog?
It is a friendly place - although I'd like to know who the sad bastard was that deleted all but one song on my very first attempt at a shared Spotify play-list!
I am a Moderator for a band's official web-site where the forum is split up into different sections and there is a bit for "anything else" where non music related topics can be discussed.
This was done to avoid the main discussions being clogged up by the nutters more interested in talking about themselves but I don't think we have that problem here.
The perfect toastie
is two thick layers of extra mature cheddar either side of generous slices of pepperoni/salami, lovingly draped in a copius belnd of Tabasco/Peri Peri and Worcester sauce. Endorphin rush guaranteed.