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Good songs, duff musicianship

Kernow's picture

I've heard "Instant Karma" on the radio twice since the weekend and I'm reminded of something I've alweays thought - great song (one of his best solo ones) but the drumming on it is awful. I think the drummer was Aln White from Yes who you would normally expect to be pretty good and Phil Spector sounds like he produced the drums with a bucket on his head.

Any other great songs out there that have survived one of the musicians or producers trying to throttle them?

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Wasn't that the point of the "wall of sound"?

Drums like you have fallen off said wall with a bucket on your head.
I guess drummers are more at risk of having to follow "tips" from the producer than many other instruments, as whole time periods are characterised by their drum sounds. Whether the "falling downstairs with the breakfast tray" of the late 60s to the "thwump" of the 80s, I am sure the drummers were largely as good (or bad) but had to follow the fashion of the day.
The drummer I always felt sorriest for was the one in (Bruce Hornsby and) the Range. He had to, or maybe had to, stick in the most repetitive leaden plod of all times. Spoils an otherwise quite good first record by them, it then all seeming to sound the same, perhaps due to that drumsound.

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 11:52am

Alan White's playing on Instant Karma! was fine...

The problem was the dreadful slapback that Phil Spector put all over the drums.

The delay was so long it was running over the next beat, giving that effect of two drummers playing together - slightly out of time.

I've heard the same effect for real myself when trying to rehearse in an empty hall that's far too big. The echo off the back wall takes so long to get back to you, it interferes with the next beat and, unless you concentrate hard, your time naturally drifts to fit in with the echo.

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stimpy | 28 January 2009 - 12:13pm
Vulpes Vulpes | 28 January 2009 - 1:43pm

Is that what it was? He's

Is that what it was? He's putting these drum fills in and he doesn't quite finish some of them before the next bar comes along. The sound of the drums is terrible which is where I always blamed Big Phil - I didn't realise it was his fault also about this slap-back thing.

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Kernow | 28 January 2009 - 1:48pm

Yup...

He's finishing the fill ok but you're hearing the slapback echo running over into the start of the next bar.

Not, technically, one of Spector's best productions but it does give the song a really dynamic 'about to fall apart' vibe

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stimpy | 28 January 2009 - 6:59pm

Sweeping Generalisation Alert!

Hasn't it always been true (at least in the post-classical era) that virtuoso musicianship is only an indication of how well played the finished piece or music might be, rather than how good the final piece itself ends up?

Punk produced some amazing records made by people who'd clearly just picked up a guitar that morning, and I often think it's strange that singers with indisputably technically fine voices (Celine, Mariah, Xtina etc.) make the dullest records imaginable, whereas the biggest stars of all time (Dylan, Lennon, Bruce, Elton, you name them) tend to have technically undistinguished voices, however characterful (NOTE - I only just noticed that there seems to be a male/female divide there, unintentional I assure you...)

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Metal Mickey | 28 January 2009 - 12:14pm

Examples?

Give, say, 5 examples of amazing punk records which are played by poor musicians? I can't think of any. There are probably no true virtuosos in the rock field anyway to be honest. There was a programme on recently with Julian Bream playing the guitar - now THAT is a viruoso.

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Twangothan | 28 January 2009 - 2:42pm

Viruoso?

OK, I know it was a typo, but your steam emitting ears don't make it clear whether you are trying to say that any amazing punk record was actually played by good musicians (i.e to be amazing) or that, because they were all played by "poor" musicians, then the challenge, to convince you, is to find 5 amazing ones played by anyone. I suspect there are a number of virtuosi in all fields of music, but not necessarily always able or competent outside their personal safety zone or genre. I think Jimmy Page may have said it better, saying something about there being perhaps different skills to be acquired around an electric guitar rather than around a classical spanish guitar. You will know, however, I feel sure.

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 3:04pm

You're over complicating it

Basically I think this idea that capable musician = dull music / crap musician = exciting is bollocks. No steam emitting though, it's just that I defy anyone who has just picked up a guitar to do anything more than make a complete inept unlistenable row. I know, I was that guitarist. It is a lazy cliche of the sort Patrick refers to in another thread. Not that I'm having a go, Metal. It is certainly the case that great players in a particular genre probably can't transfer their skills to other areas. So maybe the amazing punk records are made by virtuosi punk players?

ps there should be an acute accent on the e of cliche before you point it out Retro...

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Twangothan | 28 January 2009 - 3:29pm

ps

and it should be p.s. of course.

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Twangothan | 28 January 2009 - 3:29pm

psst

alt 130 = é

(pal of mine named Séamus insisted on using it; it's the only character map thing i know off top of the noggin. Anybody looking for umlauts etc should go elsewhere!)

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ivan | 28 January 2009 - 3:33pm

Laziness but ta!

I have a list of them for when I need to write French but couldn't be arsed to remind myself just over a minor troll attack on my friend Retro.

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Twangothan | 28 January 2009 - 3:56pm

And ker-ching to you, Twangers

"Minor troll attack". A phrase I can see myself using. Love it.

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 4:01pm

Brilliant

I was just about to say my keyboard doesn't do 'em. I will go and change all my Sineads on i-tunes to the correct spelling.

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 4:00pm

Crib sheet

é ALT 130
â 131
à 133
ç 135
ê 136
è 138
ô 147
ò 149
û 150

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Twangothan | 28 January 2009 - 4:14pm

There's an even easier one for é

Alt Gr + e = é

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Joe R | 28 January 2009 - 4:33pm

How about that norwegian o with a line in it?

Please. I don't want to mix my ol with my ol, which I have done, thru my lack of savvy.

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 4:43pm

There's always...

...abcTajpu for FF users (ø included).

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Paolo Meccano | 28 January 2009 - 5:01pm

Do you need a different keyboard for greek?

Or russian.
(I won't be silly and ask about chinese, japanese etc etc, just curious)

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Retropath2 | 28 January 2009 - 5:05pm

I think both Greek and Russian are catered for...

The screenshot on this page will give you more of an idea, hopefully.

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Paolo Meccano | 28 January 2009 - 6:13pm

For Retropath2: ø å ä ö

Her er din øl. (Norwegian)
Takk så mye.
Här är din öl. (Swedish)
Tack så mycket.

(Use google translate then copy and paste. Unless you have the appropriate keyboard of course).

Hejdå

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Sven Garlic | 28 January 2009 - 10:11pm

Polymath or what!

Hvor er min øl. Du glemte legge til vedlegg. Takk uansett.

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Retropath2 | 29 January 2009 - 10:40am

Isn't. . .

Takk Uansett up for a couple of Oscars this year?

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Archie Valparaiso | 29 January 2009 - 10:53am

this is beginning to remind me

of the subtitles at the start of Monty Python and the Holy Grail...

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ivan | 29 January 2009 - 11:12am

I've got a Spanish keyboard

and so can get ^, ´, `, and ¨ just like that over âny létter ï lìke.

¿Isñ't that çlever?

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Archie Valparaiso | 28 January 2009 - 5:49pm

As clever as this?




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Fraser Lewry | 28 January 2009 - 6:14pm

That's not a keyboard

It's a slot machine you liberated from Vegas.

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Archie Valparaiso | 28 January 2009 - 6:18pm

Amazing punk records/poor musicians.

Didn't Pete Shelley complain that he made a rod for his own back, Twango?

"I write these songs, and then I have to try and work out how to play them."

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nigelthebald | 28 January 2009 - 3:12pm

and the alan freeman rock show

when the band reformed for a gig with howard devoto in 78 or so for granada tv, they played a great version of what do i get. as they career towards the middle eight shelley goes, by way of introduction "tricky guitar solo" and then buggers it up. you had to be there......

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richard anothermusic | 30 January 2009 - 11:26am

and the alan freeman rock show

not sure where that alan freemen ref came from - autofill i think

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richard anothermusic | 30 January 2009 - 11:27am

Tastes & definitions notwithstanding

BUZZCOCKS - Boredom
DAMNED - New Rose
SAINTS - I'm Stranded
X-RAY SPEX - Oh Bondage! Up Yours!
and any early FALL, but I'll go for Rowche Rumble.

OK, I was exaggerating for comic effect, so it's not to say none of these acts could play at all, more that "enthusiasm is valued over craft," at least at this point in their respective careers.

And though I wouldn't compare their level of virtuosity to Julian Bream's, Andy Summers and Rick Wakeman (for instance) seem to know their way around their instruments.

Your mileage may vary.

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Metal Mickey | 28 January 2009 - 3:19pm

Joy Division

Off the bat let me say i'm no musician so don't shoot the messenger.
I read that the reason Joy Division were so influential on other bands is beacause their music is so easy to play(and great songs). Therefore, adapting it a tad gives you a great sound without the need for "Chops".
Saw the documentary yesterday. Very good.

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Sour Crout | 28 January 2009 - 12:25pm

Young Americans

Has a legendarily out of tune guitar - check it here at 2:43

http://www.last.fm/music/David+Bowie/_/Young+Americans+(2007+Digital+Remaster)?autostart

And there's a huge list of Fab's anomalies here...

http://wgo.signal11.org.uk/wgo.htm

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Mondo | 28 January 2009 - 12:26pm

Another Spector anomaly was

Death Of A Ladies Man. Strip down the overdone production and you've got some great tunes and lyrics. Particularly the underrated Don't Go Home With Your Hard On. People often can't get past the title, but its a classic tale.

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Mr Fade | 28 January 2009 - 12:38pm

That irritating ticking on Blackbird

This is sort of related I guess - despite the fact that Blackbird is one of the loveliest tunes ever written I cannot stand that metronome scratchy ticking thing that runs through it. It's only on one channel so I've gone to the extent of creating my own mono version using Audacity so I can carry on enjoying it.

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Niks | 28 January 2009 - 1:27pm

Is that noise...

...not McCartney keeping time with his foot?

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Paolo Meccano | 28 January 2009 - 2:01pm

Apparently...

it is is simply a scratch on the acetate that they left on.

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Niks | 28 January 2009 - 5:26pm

I hate the bird chirps on Blackbird.

I prefer the live version, without bird chirps, that can be found on McCartney's solo album "Back In The World" released circa 2000.

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LOUDspeaker | 28 January 2009 - 3:11pm

This one?

http://open.spotify.com/track/08wGoHyvZIPNXHmA1DnEgj

Or how about this one from Bobby McFerrin...

http://open.spotify.com/track/25d3TfTqfXEII5ZHYgvcRe

Or this one from Mickey Dolenz...

http://open.spotify.com/track/6HUkSgblYintNsDgCdJ7jX

Man, I've got to stop spending so much time on Spotify...

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Niks | 28 January 2009 - 9:24pm

For many years I've wrangled

For many years I've wrangled with myself as to whether the horns on Curtis Mayfield's Move On Up were a) Deliberately wonky in an Afrobeat kinda way, or b) A bit out

Can anyone help?

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Martin_Horsfield | 28 January 2009 - 1:33pm

The King is Half Undressed

Much as I love the '68 comeback special, the sound of Elvis' mates banging loudly and out of time on the back of their guitars never fails to annoy me

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Pat Carty | 28 January 2009 - 2:10pm

For what it's worth

White has a few words to say himself on what he and Spector were trying to do, though admittedly not sure it leaves me any the wiser ... From http://www.nfte.org/interviews/AW_Lennon.html

MOT: How did you become involved with "Instant Karma", your first post-Toronto session with John.

AW: I got the call again, said John's having a session. "He wants you to play drums on it," and I said fine, and so I took my drums down there, set them all up, and everybody came in. Then I met Phil Spector, and you know, he said, "Well. I've got a demo of the song." They played a demo of the song, and then John came in, and we started messing around with it, and then he says, "Well, we need a drum break here," and I said, I've been experimenting with kind of playing a drum kind of beat, but when it comes to the drum break, you play in a different meter, so it kind of steps aside of the meter for a while. And he says, "Well, I'm not too sure what you mean," and then instead of using a high hat or a cymbal, I'd use a tom-tom instead, and Phil Spector recorded it like that; that's where you get that dum-di-dum-di-dum, but when it comes to the drum break dum-di-dum-di-dum-dum-dum-dum--you usually do something like that, but I didn't. I took to another meter, where it goes into another meter, so which is another feel, and John goes "I love that!" and it was something I'd been experimenting with, because when you get to the drum part, it just goes in another area and then comes back to the song again. So I started doing that, and he loved it, and they really made a feature out of it on the record...

MOT: The drums are very prominent on that record, more so than a lot of pop singles. Really up-front.

AW: Yeah, Phil got to like the sound and got to like all that it was, and Phil Spector also records multiple things of what are on tracks and stuff like that, so at the end of the day, we were overdubbing piano, I think, and there was John Lennon and myself. He was playing lower keyboard, and I was playing high keyboard going dang-dang-dang-dang, and then there was those two pianos, and Gary Wright and I think there was a guy from Badfinger. We were all going just dang-dang-dang, and he was taking all the sound in and like making it what it is.

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SpaceBoy | 28 January 2009 - 9:48pm

George Harrison's frankly

George Harrison's frankly rubbish out of tune guitar solo on All You Need Is Love always sets my teeth on edge.

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Ricardo | 30 January 2009 - 1:08am

Coat retrieval warning....

Nice bloke, to all reports. Good songwriter, on occasion very good, but more prolific than his quality should have controlled, and good singer. But, really, weren't all his guitar solos a bit crap?

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Retropath2 | 30 January 2009 - 9:05am

The drumming on Born To Run...

Is all over the shop. I remember Mark Radcliffe saying that the drummer, one Ernest 'Boom' Carter, retired from the E Street Band and from rock because he found the idiom too restrictive. On the song Born To Run he tries three or four different styles, never really settling into any of them.

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Graham Johns | 30 January 2009 - 5:20pm
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