Entertainment For Lively Minds
Essential Band Members
Posted by pedr0 on 9 June 2009 - 4:21pm.
So which are the bands where every member is essential. You can't tell me The Beatles wouldn't have made it without Ringo or the Stones without Bill. The bands where everybody made a contribution & the chemistry would have been wrong with a different rhythm guitarist. Offhand I can only think of Led Zep & The Band & maybe The Who.
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Let me be the first one to tell you...
...that the Beatles wouldn't have made it without Ringo and the Stones wouldn't have made it without Bill.
What are the odds against a band making it on the level that those bands made it? What are the odds against *any* band making it?
They're pretty long. Incredibly long. About as long as the chances of the average kid kicking a ball around in a park becoming a Premiership footballer.
Now subtract any element from those band's successes. A member, a producer, a record company, a choice of this single rather than that single, a lucky chance to get on a tour or a festival bill, the advice of a manager, anything.
You've just made the odds even longer.
And don't make the mistake of confusing a group's less prominent members with its less important members. Particularly if they're in the rhythm section.
hear hear!
Although I think the White stripes might not have made it quite so quick with the addition of a bass player and a keyboard player!
Agreed (edit: to David's comments) take The Jam & The Smiths
both band's bassists and drummers were absolutely crucial to the overall sound. OK they might not have written the music or lyrics but they were vitally important.
The chemistry within a band and the individual sounds and playing of each member makes up the whole identity of a great band.
Don't let Morrissey
see this!
Every dragging handclap over every dragging beat
I always thought the drumming in the Smiths let the side down, and is one of the reasons I don't listen to them as often as I might; a contemporary drummer I thought would work better with them, though might not have looked as good in the photos, was Pete Thomas.
Well put, David...
keith Richards *constantly* refers to the Stones as 'Charlie Watts' Band'
As Bob Dylan said recently
on MTV.
I'm not sure about Funk band?? But totally agree with the sentiment...
I think he's right
I'm sure Keith was delighted when Bill left. It meant he could get in the kind of bass player he admired. Which is not the same as the bass player that they needed.
Actually ...
it's fairly well known that Keith was mightily pissed off when Bill announced he was leaving, and tried to persuade him to stay, then threatened him with the 'No-one leaves this band except in a coffin' line. Effectively he had announced that he was leaving at the end of a tour and they went back to him two years later, when planning the next tour, to see if he was serious.
Having said that, they are not the band they were without him. I saw him with the Rhythm Kings last summer and only then I think fully appreciated the extent of his contribution. Their version of Honky Tonk Women rocked like a bastard, in a way that his old band hasn't been able to pull off for years ... although his tuneless recitation of the lyric was unforgivable!
Bill Wyman was supposed to have come up with the riff...
to Jumpin' Jack Flash. As far as I'm concerned that cements his place in The Rolling Stones' legend good and proper.
Although it was Keef that played and recorded the ...
..bassline for "Sympathy for the Devil".
And Brian's guitar parts.
Exactly!
I've never bought all those "Pete Best as unluckiest man on earth" stories, because they assume the Beatles would have been what they became if he had stayed. Whereas the whole magic of the Beatles was in their chemistry, and Ringo was a crucial part of that chemistry.
Indeed
The Beatles as a whole never showed any regret for what they did to Pete. They all knew that Ringo was the 'missing piece'. The fact they all stood by him both during and after the group was evident*.
* The caveat here being, did John really come up with that oft-said "not even the best drummer in the Beatles" line? Which, listening to Back In The USSR and Dear Prudence, is blatantly untrue.
Possibly not Lennon..
Barry Cryer tells this story as happening one night at a social gathering in the Bag o' Nails - it does sound more like one that Cryer himself would have written
Mel Smith : "John lennon....
...Was more than a man. He was a symbol."
Griff Rees Jones: "Must have been handy for Ringo, then.
Ringo
I remember reading that it was Ringo who was instrumental in the Beatles breaking the US. George was quiet with John and Paul either aloof or "difficult". Ringo was the one who understood how to play the PR game and effectively gave the band its heart and warmth.
As a musician his opening drum salvo and subsequent driving beat on Drive My Car is one of the great drum sequences in pop in my humble opinion.
The E Street Band seem very
The E Street Band seem very obvious to be mentioned here, brilliant musicians look a gang (in their early days at least)
`
`.
Yeeeeees but
the early line-up changed a fair old bit, what with drummers and keyboards etc etc. I think the E Streeters that became the regular band from about Darkness onward, and later reconvened with both Steve VZ and Nils would seem to be the the "accepted" band, but perhaps looking more like a slightly raffish gentlemans club than the earlier line-ups street gang. And the loss of Danny Federici makes it all the more poignant.
No-one mentioned U2 that I have seen. I know we affect not to like them but the loss of any one of them would be akin to a Berry-less R.E.M., yes?
and remember Suki Lahav on violin
was there at the start, diluting the 'street gang' vibe.
EDIT: But, of course, Patti Scialfa joined in the mid 80s so there was that 10 year period where it was a real boys-club
Hmmm................
Not entirely sure.......I think the E Street Band lost a little of the Jersey Shore "gang" element when Vini "Mad Dog" Lopez went, and a lesser extent, David Sancious. Whilst Weinberg and Bittan are undoubtedly, fine, fine musicians, a little bit of the magic of those early days was lost.
Alternatively, those two could have been the missing part of the jigsaw required for ultimate world domination!
stand up for ringo
I was a very late convert to the Beatles. From a musical perspective , their greatest hits are filled with his drumming magic - fills and accents that are icing on the cake but are also part of the whole. And you can't take away his personality either. Who knows the alchemy of a band ? It doesn't work he everyone tries to be the star
The Nutty Seven
Madness seem like a good example of a large band in which all members bring significant skills and ideas to the group. Songwriting duties are spread relatively evenly, and each member's instrumental contribution is easily picked out in the music.
When it's not the full seven, it shows.
The Pogues are perhaps a similar case.
Noo Yoik
Might I suggest Talking Heads and the Ramones.
Ramones
HOW many Ramone brothers passed through the band? 8?
seven or eight depending on if you include Elvis
Johnny & Joey were constants.
Dee Dee - bass.
Tommy - drums.
Marky - drums.
Elvis (aka Clem Burke) did a gig or two as well.
Richie - drums.
CJ - bass.
We were on holiday in Islay last year, and I was playing Joey's splendid solo album. My sister-in-law was saying how sad it was that he had passed away young, and how great the Ramones had been last time we all saw them at the Barrowlands. She then uttered the immortal words "Johnny's dead too, now isn't he ? AND Dee Dee ... their poor mother."
Of course, it was all my fault for not having told her, ever, that they were bruddas but not actually literally brothers.
Nice one...for me it was like finding out Santa
didn't exist.
Santa doesn't exist?
Bloody hell, Retro Man!
Whoops!
Sorry Nigel...but what's worse is Joey's real name was Jeffrey...Tommy, Dee Dee, Johnny and Jeffrey doesn't quite have the same ring to it does it?
Two spoilers
in half an hour.
Are you being sponsored for this? What's the charity in question?
And Dee Dee was really Douglas
Jeffrey, Johnny, Dougie and Tommy :-)
Now we really are busting
those myths!
and their surname was actually Ingleby-Smythe
Surely
The Band, Robbie, Levon, Garth, Rick and Richard. A heavenly combination!
Teenage
Fanclub. All great songwriters.
drummers ?
They have had 3 drummers, though - I think this is looking for bands where every member is irreplaceable
The Jeff Beck Group
Rod the Mod, Ainsley Dunbar, Ronnie Wood and 'imself too.
R.E.M. need all 4 original members
as they're pretty good without Bill Berry but not as uniformly excellent.
Ringo...
forget about his drumming for a moment (which is bloody good if you ask me) and centre on his personality. I imagine it was absolutely crucial to the band that he was there. 'The Beatles' were born from the fortuitous coming together of four very different individuals whose talents were only given full voice when in relationship with the other three members of the group. You take one element of that away and something absolutely vital is missing.
I'm Trying...
... but I just can't forget about his drumming.
No need to...
...considering that Rain contains some of the best drumming ever committed to vinyl.
or indeed..
what he does during the chorus of 'Something'.
Don't go changing
As has been said before, so often a band loses it's drummer and their output declines.
The Clash were best with Topper Headon - in fact all original members pretty much essential, for image as well as sound. Also The Doors maybe all necessary personnel? Rather distinctive musicians I feel.
Agree that Ringo was key for sound of records and personality of band. Also 'Hard Day's Night' title inspiration and other ideas. Top drum work on tracks like 'She Said She Said', 'Rain', 'Day In The Life'. Quite an individual style too. Unfair the reputation he has I reckon.
Topper Headon, original member?
I think you'll find he was the third drummer in the Clash. Admittedly Rob Harper was only a member in passing but Terry Chimes was there for the first two years and again from 1982.
Oh bugger!
You'd think I'd know that having read Kris Needs book about Strummer. Well, he was key member without whom, as Strummer acknowledged (says Wicki), they wouldn't have got anywhere, and without him they were no good after. But I guess the fact that Chimes was on classic debut makes them no good for this thread. Oh well.
The only essential Stone is Mick
Taylor - all their best records with him. All their worst ones without. Case closed.
There is an equally strong case for saying that...
the only essential Stone was Brian Jones. Most of their best records were with him.
But seeing as I regard all the members of The Rolling Stones as being essential (up until they became their own tribute band in around 1983), I won't be making it.
Good job
What role did he play on Exile on Main Street?
The Rolling Stones' singles in the 1960s...
were every bit the equal of the albums made during the Taylor years, if not better. Brian Jones' passing coincided with The Rolling Stones ceasing to create truly innovative music. His genuine curiosity in 'world' music and willingness to experiment resulted in some extraordinary sounds that disappeared without trace from The Rolling Stones' records after he'd died.
That is not to say that 'Exile' isn't a fantastic album... but it is the sound of a band refining one aspect of their sound instead of pushing boundaries as they had done whilst Jones was in the band.
The only essential Stone was Stu.
They were great whilst he was with them. Once he died, they stopped making decent records and became the tribute band.
Coincidence? I don't think so :-)
He was...
the other essential one.
Currently plying his trade with duo The Chins in heaven alongside Sammy Davis Jr.
Actually
my point was a slightly facetious, facile and fatuous one. Sorry - thought I was on the "F" thread then.
My real point being that any band good or bad is a coming together of individuals at a given time and each member is essential.
Sometimes, like a football team, "supergroups" are put together like the "galacticos" of Real Madrid. And it doesn't quite work. Blind Faith providing a good example. You need a water carrier, as well as a painter of masterpieces. A Deschamps as well as a Zidane.
And anyway, it seems to me the Stones became a caricature soon as Jimmy Miller stopped being their producer
Not sure Ric Grech was really a galactico
I'd have him down as the 'domestique' within Blind Faith
" ... the Stones became a caricature soon as Jimmy Miller
stopped being their producer ...". But I thought that didn't happen until 'Black and Blue', you said! ;-)
yes, as I was saying, er,
anyway * shifts blame*, it was all that Tadorna's fault, um, crikey is that the time? Must be off...
*walks away muttering* "can't get with anything round these parts"
Ringo is a Starr...
Absolutely you could not have had any four members of The Beatles but those four (success wise). Ringo was incredibly popular in the states, was genuinely witty, a great diplomat within the band and some of those songs would not have sounded as good without that drumming...just is, man.
How about Hanson, I mean you just take one of those boy's out of the equation, you know...
used to think
Ringo was a bit of an idiot, but am now converted - he's solid as rock...Check out that live footage in the Anthology Series.
I would say Simon and Garfunkel
but Paul Simon would disagree with me.
Actually thinking about it
Free - perfect balance - Rogers,Kossoff, Fraser and Kirke - each indispensable.
Indeed
When they were on song they would talk about "the 5th member" being present.
Crowded House
Aren't the same without Paul Hester, no matter how technically good the new guy is.
Definitely
You're right. Groups aren't a matter of finding the best guy to fulfil each role any more than championship-winning football teams always have the best left-back. They're a product of their culture and history.
You Beat Me
to it. I was just thinking that they were never quite the same after he left. He had a humour and stage presence that disappeared later on (plus a great harmony voice). RIP.
I agree
I used to love it when they played live and he'd come up front with just a snare, cymbal and some hand percussion when they played an acoustic set. I particularly liked his subtle drumming with brushes which suited the embarrassment of riches of Neil Finn's melodies.
Although they're not liked by all here,
I think the cover star's band is an obvious candidate.
Right You Are
I think if any of them, even Adam "luckiest man in the world" Clayton, left, they'd be finished. And I think they'd know that and shut up shop accordingly.
Maybe
The Police?
Abba?
I'd say Queen...
...And their current incarnation (Now 100% Rogers-free, apparently) prove this. Like or loathe them, each original member has written at least one stone cold radio hit. Out of interest, have any other bands managed that?
My theory on Ringo and why he was crucial to their success
The four distinct personalities of the members roughly correspond to different stages of life.
Paul was past caring what was cool or what would impress others. He knew himself and was comfortable in his own skin. Paul represented middle age.
George was calm and settled, aware and reflective, concerned about the outside world. George represented young adult.
John was erratic, volatile, prone to anger. He would jump on any bandwagon that came along regardless, be a strident true believer for five minutes then switch to something else. John represented teenager.
Ringo was joyful everything was a delight to him. Ringo represented childhood.
You just have to watch live footage of the band to see aspects of that in action. John scowling at the crowd, George bemused by the hysteria, Paul trying to calm everyone down and get on with the show and at the back there's Ringo banging away without a care in the world.
That's not why they were initially successful, it took time and the sheer quality of their material for them to penetrate into the world's consciousness but it's part of the reason they "stuck." Every person on Earth had someone they could identify with.
The Four Headed Beast
Macca has a theory that John had the intelectuals George, the Mystics, Ringo, the mum's and dad's, and Paul, the bird's (as in 'screaming teens')
I like your one though.
The Fall!
Oh, wait, hang on...
My serious answer is Clutch. Each band member is a master of what they do.
Write 100 words
on the importance of Bez to The Happy Mondays................
(Nah, just kidding).
Don't think I could stretch to 100 words but
I would argue that Bez is an integral part of the Happy Mondays, maybe not musically of course but just in that whole chemistry thing. I'm sure having him around made the band happy and did have some influence - I mean think of the Mondays and people will probably think of Bez first.
10cc pre-1976
Mentioned before on here, but...
Four members, all sang, all wrote - the credits for 1974's Sheet Music had six different writing combinations.
Not that I especially care about...
Guns N' Roses, but it's clear that it was all over bar the shouting from the day Izzy Stradlin left.
Tom Waits
Not one MEMBER of Tom Waits is dispensable!
'erm...
Shouldn't that be
not one MEMBER of Iggy Pop is dispensable?
Ah yes
Sorry...Sorry.
I would like to nominate the
post roy estrada
pre post lowell
little feat
The Faces
Maclagen, Lane, Rod, Woody and, er, Kenney Jones.
The Stone Roses tour 1995
The one with Brown, Squire & Mani, but not Reni, was absolutely not the same.
Take That without Robbie anyone???
Might need a little patience....
The Pixies?
Just a thought.
Absolutely
They all contribute, and they would have been fools to try and replace anyone. Even when they got in a fifth member for touring, it was Joey's brother. Those guys were tight.
Paul Buckmaster
seems to me essential to whoever he works with.
Elton John at his best, the kooky genius of Amanda Palmer - and my hot off the presses latest opinion that Sticky Fingers is the best Stones ever and that "Moonlight Mile" their towering achievement. Sails into my best ever Top 5 of today
Oops.....
Curse of the double post
Hall & Oates
Harking back to the H&O thread, I could never work out what John Oates brought to the band. Daryl Hall seemed to do all the important things. Then someone pointed out that Daryl Hall's solo albums just weren't in the same league...
And re the Jeff Beck group, as Mickey Waller was on drums, I think that blows that one out of the water (sorry - just catching up on this one. I'll shut up now).