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Digital Cameras - ask the Word Which Massive
Posted by Carl Parker on 6 November 2009 - 1:53pm.
Over a year ago I had my compact Olympus digital camera nicked. I've decided it's time to get myself a new one.
I want to go for a digital SLR, mainly because, while I appreciated many of the attributes of the compact (not least its size), I think there were too many aspects of an SLR that I missed. But if you know of a compact that could knock an SLR into a cocked hat I'd like to hear about it.
My budget is around £350 / £375.
There are a load of websites and magazines that can be referred to, but as with others with other consumer products I thought I'd ask in the place where I know I can expect to get clear and considered answers.
Thanks, I await your wisdom.
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DSLR vs Compact
I'd go the DSLR route simply because you can upgrade it with other, better lenses if you find photography is something you want to explore further. The Canon 1000D fits your budget. I started with the 350D, but I've subsequently upgraded twice - it can be a very slippery, expensive slope.
Another alternative might be to look at the more recent four-thirds cameras. They've been developed specifically for the digital market, so they're more compact than traditional DSLRs, but they have the interchangable lenses.
One final thing: if you decide on getting a DSLR, once you've got your camera, never shoot on auto. Learn about aperture priority, shutter priority and ISO, and a whole world of possibilities will open up. Leave it on auto, and you may as well stick with a point-and-click compact.
I bought an Olympus E400 a few years ago
Have been very happy with it (but I am a novice in the SLR stakes). Is a little smaller than its competitors which I liked. Came with normal and zoom lens. Worth a look at its replacement (E420 I think). But there are some proper photographer types around here who may offer more experienced advice.
Just thought I'd add
that the Olympus E420 is a four fifths DSLR hence the fact that it is a little smaller than typical DSLR's.
That's
four thirds
Thats
true.
Huh?
Surely four thirds would make it bigger - by 33%
Canon's G Series
The G series is an excellent line of compact rangefinders. Lenses are superb, they are smallish, highly versatile, well made and, in my opinion, very good-looking in a slightly retro way. In other words, they don't resemble mobile phones / powder compacts / Star Wars props. Reviews are consistently good and they seem popular with pros. I have a G7, but the G10 is within your budget. The new G11 has had rave reviews but is around £450.
For me SLRs are too big, too ugly, too samey and too noisy. After switching to rangefinders a long time ago, I've never been tempted to go back. And I take more photos!
Seconded...
I bought a Canon G9 for my ex-girlfriend after doing a fair bit of research and she was really pleased with it. I fully agree with what Rufus has to say above.
I want to get a G11 when it comes out as I don't always want to use my bulky Canon 5D.
Is that really a recommendation?
"I bought a Canon G9 for my ex-girlfriend" suggests she would rather have had the Nikon.
You're better off without her.
At the time I bought it for her she was my girlfriend...
and she did appreciate it! Perhaps more than she appreciated me... :-)
The G series
Are not rangefinders. They're compact cameras in larger bodies, that's all.
The only digital rangefinders out there are made by Leica and Epson.
I think...
...Rufus means that they have viewfinders.
I would agree
That an optical viewfinder is essential. I just can't get used to holding a camera at arm's length while taking a photo.
Canon Powershot A650 IS in its latest incarnation.
Compact size, most of the functions you could ever realistically want that a DSLR might give you, excellent lens, usable zoom, delivers great results with everything set to 'Auto', and well within budget. It's my third compact digital camera, and the best by far. No contest.
I think you have to ask what and when you want to
take pictures. I love my Panasonic FX500 compact because I can carry it with me most of the time and it takes great pictures for it's size and cost. If you have dslr it's more of thing to carry around it's saying "I'm going out to take pictures" rather than "I'm going out and oh and I'll just take picture of that". Also I like taking street photography (for want of better word) so it's less obtusive to use a compact that bigger bulkier dslr. Basically whatever camera you get it should be one you are going to use the world is full of expensive tech nestling amongst the silica gel sachets in the box it came in.
One useful source of info is the amazon review section especially when it comes to flagging up persistent problems with particular models, when I was looking I was thinking of getting a Ricoh but the number of build quality comments on amazon put me off.
Oh and I got a gorillapod to use with fx500 and it's really useful.
Rufus
has given the right answer... The Canon G10 can probably be had for your budget and combines near SLR versatility with compact portability. The image quality is better than an EOS1000D SLR in my experience, and the G series are the compact of choice for every pro photographer I work with. We have published images shot with them, the quality is that good.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-PowerShot-14-7MP-Digital-Camera/dp/B001FWY...
Alternatively the Panasonic Lumix LX3 falls into your budget
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-DMCLX3-Digital-Camera-Optical/dp/B001D...
Panasonic cameras are, to all extents and purposes, rebadged Leicas. They are utterly superb and boast the best optics of any range of compacts.
(Amazon links provided for reference)
start up times
Jason, what is the start-up time like on the compacts these days? I am a complete amateur but the near-instant start of a DSLR is a clincher. My last digi compact (Sony) took lovely pics but the 3-4 seconds it took to fire-up from sleep made me miss a lot of reaction pics.
My Canon takes around
1 second to beep and unfurl its lens, and maybe another before you can squeeze off a shot (ooer); can a DSLR really be any faster than that?
Yes, much faster
But then you discover you've left the lens cap on.
"Panasonic cameras are rebadged Leicas"
You've got that the wrong way around. Apart from the lens, Leica compacts are manufactured by Panasonic.
Order placed
I've gone for the Lumix. Nearly 100g lighter than the Canons, and rave reviews everywhere! Thanks Jason.
Personally.....
I would go with a DSLR as it gives much more flexibility in terms of future proofing. Simply put you can stick with the same body and just add lenses as you need / desire. I've had a Nikon D80 for a few years now and whilst there have been many newer models, there is nothing in the "wow, must have" realms that makes me want to change - it covers all the basic needs.
The other advice I would give is stick with the camera manufacturers - i.e. your Canon, Nikon, Olympus etc. At the end of the day its the lenses that make the difference not the electronics. I find the choice of Nikon vs Canon to be purely personal preference - i.e. how it "feels" to use. I've always liked and used Nikon's but my wife has always used Canon's....
One other option would be the Olympus E-P1, which is one of these four-thirds cameras. It gives the size advantages of the compact, but some of the flexibility of an SLR. A friend has one and loves it and generally reviews seem to be positive. They have just announced a E-P2 but its not out until early next year (and looks generally similar anyway).
Canon EOS 400D
It's a 'budget' level properly good DSLR. I bought mine 2 years ago for £350 brand new (well £400 but Canon did a £50 cashback deal) and I use it relentlessly.
It's a great machine. Overall functionality is almost exactly the same as on the mega-expensive Canon's at over a grand. The standard lens (18-55mm) is a bit bland but if it's your first DSLR its plenty good enough.
I think now the 400D has been replaced by the 1000D at the same sort of price, ie under £400.
You can find swathes of the new 1000D's in shops everywhere. 400D's are a good 2nd hand investment - I mean they're only a year or so old.
What he said. Then pick up
What he said. Then pick up the 'nifty-fifty' prime lens (50mm, f1.8) for about sixty quid. Plasticky build, but superb optics. This really opened up the camera for me, with massive control over DoF and the like.
Listen to this man
It's an amazing lens. I have a couple of 'L' series primes in my bag, and this one is almost as good - but incredible value for money.
And very lightweight
It hardly adds anything to the camera weight and doesn't protrude very far.
I'll third that about the Nifty Fifty. I use an EOS 400D.
Got one a couple of weeks ago.. gosh! Proper portrait photos! Great bit of kit. I was looking at it in the shop and a Proper Photographer just said "Buy it!" to me. He said it's the best bit of kit on the market for the money.
Saying that, I use a ring-flash and macro lens on full manual setting for mega close-up shots at work. Opened up to f2.8, aperture priority, still using the ring to fill in, it takes great portraits.
Jealousy
As an owner of a Nikon D40*, I’m slightly jealous that you can get a 50mm Canon lens for £60. The equivalent Nikon is about double that, although I see there's one on offer just now for £100.
Just one question – 50mm lenses for 35mm film SLRs were classed as ‘normal’ lenses, as they produced the least distorted image of any focal length. Am I right in thinking that using a 50mm lens on a D-SLR actually equates to a focal length of approx 35mm in old money?
If so, it’s still worth getting, but it’s a pity that a ‘true’ 50mm lens doesn’t seem to be available.
*very pleased with it, even though it's only 6MP and I've only got the kit 18-55 lens
50mm
On a Canon consumer DSLR the 50mm lens will become in effect 80mm, on a Nikon 75mm. So if you want to recreate a standard 50mm lens you'd need to buy something like Sigma 30mm lens.
Hope that makes sense!
Ah!
So I got it completely the wrong way round then...
I was wondering what people were meaning about it being an excellent portrait lens. That actually makes it a more attractive option for me, even at £100.
Dougie, Good article here...
About the mega-pixel myth....
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm
Forget the penis envy and be happy with your, err...... equipment.
Cheers!
:-)
Canon EOS 440D
The GLW bought one of these about three years ago when it was about £700. It’s now down to about £450 and you might be able to get a second hand one in your price range. She thinks it’s “brilliant”.
But there’s a proper review here . . .
http://www.trustedreviews.com/digital-cameras/review/2007/02/13/Canon-EO...
Nikon D40
I bought mine from Amazon, about 18 months ago and paid £250 for it. They've now whacked it back up to £455, but it's still a brilliant camera.
As for reviews and advice....
This guy's site is a mine of information and tips (As far as compacts are concerned, he reckons the Canons are the best you can get)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/recommended-cameras.htm
And this site is as in-depth as you could wish for...
http://www.dpreview.com/
Sony DSC HX1
I'm really happy with my Sony. I contemplated a DSLR but ultimately it came down to what I wanted to use it for. I like taking pictures and I wanted to take reasonable ones but I couldn't be faffed with the weight of a DSLR and its accessories, never mind stopping all the time to change lenses.
I spend a lot of time climbing, mountain biking and other outdoor stuff; weight and bulk are a key issue here. For me, the Sony takes great pictures, has a 20x zoom and I can just about get away with stuffing it into a rucksack or pocket.
It also has a host of useful features such as a panorama mode (which is great in the hills) and in low light conditions it can fire off 6 rapid shots and combine them to give a good picture without flash. It also has a large fold out viewing screen and a decent macro facility. All in all, it takes excellent pictures - unless you really are a serious and creative photographer - what else do you want?
Fraser's Advice Is Sound
A Canon 1000D is a good place to start and may be all you need. If you get bitten by the photography bug, you can upgrade when you are ready. Cameras are being improved and upgraded constantly so once new innovations become the norm, prices come down.
I have a couple of Canon 400D bodies. I can't afford to upgrade, but I don't mind as I see it as a waiting game - the longer I wait, the better the camera I get for my hard earned dosh.
Thanks for the information
I knew you wouldn't let me down.
I'll have to explore the links that have been posted.
I used a Pentax ME Super in the old days. I even used to process some of my own B&W film. However when I decided to switch to digital I was seduced by the idea of portability and lightness. But in practice I became a bit frustrated with the lack of adaptability which is why I'm thinking of DSLR. These four-thirds machines need to be looked at.
Further contributions always welcome, especially if you have yet to add your ha'poth.
I'll let you know what I buy, which should be in the two or three weeks.
I have two...
A Canon 350D - which is the earlier incarnation of the 400D / 450D / 1000D mentioned above.
If I can't be arsed lunking a DSLR about then I've got a Nikon P6000 which is a bridge between the DLR's and a simple point & shoot and is a great little camera
SLRs are very bulky and I
SLRs are very bulky and I personally prefer a rangefinder type camera. Don't get seduced by the mega pixel size and just ensure it has a great lens. The cannon g range is excellent and is probably a good place to start.
What a great thread
I had in mind getting a new camera for Mrs.T for Chrimble and now I have all the info I need. Good work! One point - of the recommended, how are they weight wise?
The Canon G series is lightweight...
and would be ideal for Mrs T. They're really good cameras for ladies who don't have whopping great shovel hands like some blokes.
Cameras for Ladies?!
I'm glad Mrs Wayfarer doesn't read this blog, Patrick!
She's half my size and lugs a hefty 1DS and lenses around - and she can come over very militant feminist when the mood takes her.
(That's my arse covered if she ever does find her way here). Phew.
Some years back...
manufacturers realized that by making cameras more lightweight and smaller they could open up a new market for themselves by selling more to women. That has been the case.
With the greatest of respect I don't think Mrs Wayfarer is typical by any means. The women I know who are pro photographers don't like using a bulky and heavy camera like a Canon 5D if they're on the move as it's too unwieldy. For studio work, fine. One of my closest friends sold her 5D as she just didn't find it comfortable to use so now she uses a Leica M8 instead.
Agreed Patrick
the 1DS is a bloody monster of a camera, but she insists on lugging it everywhere. Way too heavy for me.
Just had a look at the Leica. Beautiful but way out of my league (and price range).
It depends what you want it for
If you want to take pictures of static subjects then you can get away with a compact. If you want to take pictures of anything moving, kids for instance, you need an SLR. All compacts (and that is ALL) suffer from shutter lag, and are no good at all for anything moving.
The other problem with compacts, even those such as Canon's expensive G-series, is that they all have a tiny sensor. This means that they are more or less useless, due to noise, above 400 ASA.
The new Olympus and Panasonic 4/3 interchangeable lens compacts look interesting, but they don't have an optical viewfinder, which is a deal-breaker for me.
As for the 50mm Canon lens mentioned above, when I shot film I frequently went out with just a 50mm standard lens. But on my Canon 1000D that becomes an 80mm lens. Now I may want that in my bag for portraits, but it's too long to use as a walk-around lens.
Very useful
So what's the answer? Mrs. T is not going to carry an SLR in case, extra lenses etc to sports day to snap Twang Jr doing the 50 yard dash....but are you saying that is the only option, and that no compact will do it? And WTF is a rangefinder? I am a total camera novice, depth of field, "f" (whatever that is), ASA is a mystery to me. She (and I) just want to take a few nice pics on days out, hols etc. The G10 sounded good but now I'm not so sure.
It honestly is
As simple as that I'm afraid - if you want to take shots of anything in motion, including school sports day, you need an SLR.
Is there an echo in here...
...what they said above, but what do you want to do is important. I love Canon gear and have a 350D, I've been less happy with Fujifilm, although I've had a couple.
If you can work within the limitations of a single body machine like the G11, it's probably a better compromise. I'd be looking for >10 mega-pixels and >10* zoom. Most decent compacts will give you aperture and shutter priority setting, black and white and so on.
However, I particularly wanted manual focusing because I regularly go to motor racing events, so it's important I can over-ride the auto focus for moving targets, which is frequently hard/difficult/impossible on many compacts.
I also frequently use very high ISOs for low light situations, like school concerts, so ISOs north of 1600 and full manual aperture/shutter are important to me then too. At 1600 my Canon is ok, my Fuji is horrible. It's worth trying them out in your normal scenarios if you can.
Lenses are a big investment, and the standard Canon ones on the 350D were pretty cheap and nasty. Nikon's were much more solid feeling. I got a Sigma super zoom 18-200, which behaves like about 35-300 because of the small camera sensor (about 2/3rds of a 35mm frame) you get in most non-pro bodies, and I pretty much never take that lens off. It's a good enough compromise with just a little distortion at the extremes, but a pair of lenses doing 20-150/150-300 would be a pain for me. That 2/3rds multiplier also means than if you want a fish eye/wide angle, you'll be spending a fortune on one and lose some of it's capability.
A DSLR and lenses is also a hell of a lot bigger than a compact and a pain to lug round.
Slightly more long range question - the D lenses from most of the manufacturers (Sigma and Canon spring to mind) are built for these smaller sensors and are therefore cheaper, but they won't work properly or at all if you try to put them on a 35mm film/full size digital sensor body, so if you spend a lot on D lenses and want to upgrade to a pro body with a 35mm sensor, you'll be buying new lenses. That may never be any issue for you. It might become one for me in a year or so.
Do you want high speed multi-shot, like more than 3/sec and more than 10 at a time - that usually requires a higher end/high price body. And compact start-up time was a huge issue for me on my early compacts - drove me up a tree. Definitely try them out. My 350D is ready to shoot about as fast as I can go from the power button to the shooting button, but anything that unfurls a lens from the body is probably going to be slower. Electrically operated zooms can be annoyingly slow too, and chew the battery.
Tiny pixels
You may have to make compromises between the number of pixels and the quality of the low-light performance on a compact camera.
As manufacturers pack more and more pixels onto smaller and smaller sensors, there comes a point when each pixel is just too small to do the job.
Canon have reduced the number of pixels on the G11 to 10 megapixels from the 14.7 of the G10 in order to improve the picture quality in low light.
Purchase on hold
I was thinking of going with Fraser's recommendation of the Canon EOS 1000 when suddenly about £80 is added to the price.
I'll wait till after Xmas.
isn't vat going back up soon
may be worth looking into not sure how much it may add.
VAT increase
will add back 2.5% so on a camera which hopefully will go back to less than £400 that will be slightly less than £10.
I think its worth waiting.
Jessops
usually have special offers around bank holidays so may have some in the next few weeks.