Entertainment For Lively Minds
Does Andy Kershaw deserve this kicking?
Posted by BigJimBob on 3 July 2011 - 9:41pm.
Oh dear:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jun/30/no-off-switch-andy-kershaw-r...
Actually, you know what? I do think she has a point, but it is a bit vitriolic isn't it?
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The article said...
I lost my virginity to Never Mind The Bollocks.
She said "is this Johnny Rotten?" and I said "No, I've only used it twice."
ktish
and may I say Boom Boom
pedant alert
if you're losing your virginity, how have you used it twice?
Or do I not want to know?
Funny though...
The first time...
... I was just practicing.
Didn't you know?
It's was all the Isle of Man's fault - just ask Liz...
It did feel
It did feel that the critic was reviewing the author rather than the book. I used to quite like Kershaw and was thinking about reading his book. I was wondering if it was any cop and after reading that review I'm none the wiser.
Me neither
It sounds like a review of 'Bouncing Back' by Alan Partridge.
Have any of The Massive read it and care to post a review?
I have...
…it chronicles his journey from his Toblerone addiction and subsequent breakdown - through to his stint hosting “Up with a Partridge” on Radio Norwich. Shakin’ Stevens described it as “lovely stuff” if that helps?
And in the end
he had the last laugh
I have been eagerly awaiting his book
but was surprised it was out so soon (next week). I also missed the serialisation in the Mail On Sunday. Part 2 link below.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2010604/Id-blind-date-Courtney...
Andy can be a bit much for many people. He operates at twice the speed of most people when you deal with him. I have personally been at the sharp end of his bulldozer approach to critics and been a recipient of his extreme generosity. I had been told to expect flying bullets once the book was released and that seems to be the case with this review. Sour grapes from The Guardian?
Okay I admit I am very biased but even I chuckled at the audacity of the synopsis of the book that appears on his new website. Take some of it with a slight pinch of salt. I'm more interested to see which photographs he has used. If he has not included them I am happy to post my photos of Andy in top hat and tails!
http://www.andykershaw.co.uk/andy_kershaw_biography.html
he refused to book
The Sisters at Leeds Uni, so he'll allas be a reet pillock in ma books!
Ah'll sithee.
James
I've been on this site too long. As soon as I saw the first two words in the body of your post, I knew I'd see your tag line.
Which Sisters are these you speak of James?
Let me guess. Sisters of Mercy? If so, let me quote you Wikipedia;
If I meringue then enlighten me.
Not wrong
IIRC correctly the Sisters played the Uni three times in the same year, moving up the venue size each time. I was there (and used to live round the corner from Eldritch). However that may have been before the time of "Andrew Kershaw Presents (in big letters) for University of Leeds Student Union (in small letters)" The Clash! (and I am very grateful to him that he did). So Andy may indeed have refused to book the Sisters.
The Uni had some odd ideas - we turned down Fergal Sharkey the week he was number one, and had the riot act read to us by the promoters who threatened our status as a leading venue.
from someone there at the time
a Manx member of The Sisters Inner Circle
see my post above
Beanz pls.
It's
Beanz Meanz Heinz
I'm reading it at the moment
It's readable. Funny. Scathing. And frustrating in what it skirts past. Actually, the most glaring thing that comes across is his almost total lack of modesty; something that could put many readers' backs up.
Still, to call this book self-obsessed is a bit rum - it's an autobiography for heaven's sake. And for a self-referencing Guardian review to go slinging accusations like that around is a bit of an own goal. On a side note, I had to smile at a reader's comment that the paper doesn't pay the reviewer to have an agenda - that's exactly what the paper's employed her to have.
Beany - there are many original Kershaw photos in it, including some rather splendid ones of motorbikes, funnily enough.
My first
enduring memory of Andy Kershaw was his disastrous OGWT interviews with AC/DC and Van Halen on the eve of the 1984 Donington Monsters Of Rock Festival.
The BBC had sent him along presumably with clear instructions to film a piece ridiculing the burgeoning metal scene.
He breezed into their respective hotel rooms like a hyperactive George Formby seemingly bent on a combative exchange with the musicians.
David Lee Roth was more than a match for Kershaw however and simply threw his snide comments and sarcasm back at him with comedic interest.
AC/DC, meanwhile, disarmed Andy with typical humility and self-deprecation and seemed quite happy to agree with Kershaw's assertion that they had "made the same album 12 times".
The next time I became aware of the professional Lancastrian he had embraced World Music and exchanged ridicule for reverence.
..and here it is..
Introduced by two startlingly handsome chaps who don't seem to grace our Telly screens much these days.
It hasn't got any better
with age.
That's such a poor piece of music journalism. Talk about shooting fish in a barrel.
What a pity the bottle of piss didn't fetch him square on the back of the head.
The funniest line was right at the start when one wag called out Northern comedian Sandy Powell's catchphrase "Can You Hear Me, Mother?", hopefully an esoteric tribute to Kershaw's comedy accent.
I know..
..as if those guys (especially VH) weren't used to batting off ridicule, never mind from lightweights like AK.
Thing is
He didn't get near a fish. He seemed nervous to me, especially when DLR got his revenge in early with the Perrier bottle joke.
That's true
Watching it again earlier today for the first time in over 20 years, the worst part is clearly his patronising manner toward the fans and the genre as a whole.
Supporting the editorial line, lets remember
"Lets send Kershaw to Donnington" would have been a very funny suggestion at the time.
The 'school bully' made successful by a stroke of luck here. All fitted very comfortably into the 80's Whistle Test editorial line, with regard to Rock music. Here was another ludicrous fool, convinced that their own limited taste should be a kind of prescription for everyone. From memory, a few years later on Kershaw was even encouraged to deliver a kind of monolog. Where the entire genre was described as "an arpeggio away from Punk Rock". Because even Punk was of course "crap."
This trip to Donnington, one carefully selected interview aside, seems to show more intelligence and humour than was comfortable. But against the plan, more directed at Kershaw than from him . You wonder what hit the cutting room floor.
Outside the box office "can you hear me mother" someone calls out. I would assume more a suggestion about Kershaws relationship with his mother, than one only aimed at his accent. Kershaw comes out looking like what he was, self righteous and arrogant, far beyond his age and musical experience.
Predictably, time has shown us the music survived, and retained its audience. You won't many listening to the cold and soulless rubbish that Kershaw was painstakingly 'interested' in at the time these days.
And in reference to the review of Kershaws character, and erm… the book - its spot on if you ask me. A renowned back stabber too. In the end, sooner or later, we all pay our dues.
Is there an echo in here?
Yeah yeah
I forgot I posted it, so posted it twice like an idiot. Fucking difficult this 'internet" lark.
Excellent post anyway Marky
(both of them!)
Just a question
When did Michael J Fox get over his phase of wearing a silly blonde wig and pretending to be a rawker?
The Times review today
suggested he could have made more out of some of the juicy titbits he lets go by with a barely a sentance or two. His three week fling with Carol 'Two from the bottom' Vordermann. Dancing at the Blues Jazz (Jazz Blues?) Festival with Princess Margaret and his "year of hell" is sped over without any real depth.
Maybe the reviewers are hoping for a more self flaggelating and tabloid tome
Quite a good piece with his side of story
in Saturday's Times magazine
Kershaw's boffed Carol Vorderman?
Lucky git!
Vorderman described as a "lucky git"
Another first from The Word
my main problem with the review is not that it's nasty to AK
just that I'm still not sure if the books any good. We all know that some of the best autobiographies are by the 2nd-3rd diviision celebs either the insightful semi-outsider sharing their experience of inner circles or as in the this case the ones from people with little or no self-awarness producing page after page of solipsism. But there's not much in the review about how the book reads which seems to be an omission.
Course he deserves the critical review
When someone is so saturated in self-regard and ego, they are always fair game - and particularly if they are so narcissistic as to write a "I did it my way" autobiography that is selective with events. He epitomises the snide 'received wisdom' canon of certain kinds of music fan; e.g., meat-and-potatoes 'authenticity', lumpen political rock (Billy Bragg, the 100% over-rated Clash), and sentimentalising African music (when I first heard the long guitar jams in the same key I thought I had heard west coast jamming moved to a different continent: but imagine his comments about hippie or psychedelic music). His righteousness and 'man-of-the-people' schtick makes me think his real name is Jeremy and he was raised in a leafier part of Cheshire, which would explain much of the '40-tabs and pints only' over-compensating. That he also had a bit of a problem with the devil's dandruff at one point may explain his 'always on' thing - and the ego that couldn't accept 'no' from another person: you can only imagine what being in a relationship with an ego like that is like. I venture some rawk poodles, at root, are less affected.
Well said
But dissing The C***h on here is a faux pas of Morrissey-esque proportion.
Bragg and Clash
Agree with your comments on Bragg and the, sentimentally mythologised Clash. Also, having actually lived in Africa myself, his fawning regard for all African music is rather embarrassing. The Bhundu Boys were crap, as is almost all music from Zimbabwe. West Africa has a much higher hit-rate as regards decent bands, but just because a band is African does not necessarily make them great.
Unfortunately...
...he does seem to have a very unlikeable strain of self-aggrandisement. It comes across in any interview I've read with him, including one in the Times magazine on Saturday past - where apparently he's the last flag-flyer for freedom against the establishment because he smokes. (No Andy, it's just a stupid addiction.)
The worst example was when, a few months back, he was bigging up his reportage from war zones (while bumbling around field-tripping in Africa or wherever, as if he's the David Livingstone of our day) as being "100 times better than any journalist, and they all know it" or something like that.
He's just a bumptious, delusional bore.
That's brilliant!
Paying huge taxes on tobacco to the Government is 'socking it too them'.
Priceless, even for a Radio 1 DJ.
Addict
Having read about his various 'substance' issues, I do have some sympathy for him and some understanding of his behaviour. An addict is often described as 'an egomaniac with an inferiority complex'. Seems to fit.
I have met some people who have worked with him.
They did not speak kindly of him.
I think he's incredibly rude
and having seen - and heard - him in action, I don't think he's a very nice person.
Island hopping mad
On the positive side, Manx people really hate him.
His sister, meanwhile, seems a sweetie-pie to the extent that one can tell just from a radio show.
Having been subject to her for a number of years on CWR
I would disagree. Her stint as an early morning DJ drove me mad.
She seemed to turn most topics around to her personal viewpoint/circumstances whether they were local, national or global. She also seemed to focus on what people earned/had and have a problem with anyone who earned more than her or had a more extravagant lifestyle. Many of her interviews attacked the individual rather than the organisation whom they represented or the issue at hand.
I doubt that either of the Kershaw siblings could have been characterised as having an underprivileged upbringing.
Her overall tone is one of negativity, which soon becomes tiresome.
I had the dubious pleasure of
producing Liz Kershaw for a short while. She could be entertaining, but I didn't share her opinion that hers was a massive talent thwarted by southern Oxbridge types at the BBC.
"
Rachel Cooke
in The Observer certainly gave him a good shooing yesterday and I think it's fair enough that a review of the person is integral to a review of his autobigraphy. She also mentions that he has a go at John Peel which does seem very odd. I though the review was fair enough, she clearly doesn't like him but also does review the book and comments on it pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised to see it sell well.
excellent misspellings
Like the idea of her 'shooing' him, like a naughty dog. 'Andy' You've made a mess again!' Possibly v appropriate.
Which reminds me of that old joke...
"Have you ever shooed a horse?"
"No, but I once told a pig to fuck off."
The link IS to Rachel Cooke's article.
!
Well, I met him once
at a Bruce concert and he was charming but he doesn't come out of this review too well. I agree with others here, the review doesn't actually inform us if it's a good read or not. Put it this way though, i don't think I'll be taking it on holiday with me.
It's not about whether he's a nice person but...
whether the book's any good or not. Toby Young is a wanker, but he actually writes about being a wanker quite well in "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People". On the evidence of these reviews, AK has delivered a "I knew I was right" diatribe reminiscent of Father Ted's three-hour-long Priest of the Year speech ("Right - that's enough about the liars, now let's get on to the cheats").
Toby Young does appear to be a self aware arse...
... which certainly helps his writing. What I took from the review was that AK, in this book, is somewhat lacking in self awareness, making the book a tedious read. Which is a real shame.
Exactly
point of comparison.
Nick Kent's The Dark Stuff (collected journalism) which is very good and Apathy for the devil (all about Nick Kent) which starts well and then I really couldn't care anymore.
The first I kept, the second went to Oxfam.
Peel...
....yes, he had a go at Peel in the Times too: going on about how it was inexplicable that nobody ever pulled him up/commented on the fact that he changed his accent at least twice in his broadcasting career (presumably the Liverpool phony accent of his Texas period, then the affectation of the Perfumed Garden era then the splenentic/laconic Northerner of the 70s and beyond). Which is a fair enough point, though it seems petty to make an issue of it now. Curious that no one ever seemed to mind John Martyn - much more ludicrously - changing his accent periodically, from fey 60s RP to gor-blimey Londoner to completely non-understandable Glaswegian.
John Martyn
was possibly too low profile and so slipped under the radar of mainstream critical appraisal. Mick Jagger however has certainly copped a lot a ridicule over the years for his fluctuating posh/estuary/mockney accent.
Elvis Costello
When he was a "punk rocker", he was cockney. In the mid-80s, his Scouse side asserted itself. I have heard him be Irish too. Currently, he is mid-Atlantic.
Costello's
as Bruce Thomas pointed out, accent used to slide to suit "a top-of-the-morning-Dublin accent in Ireland, Cockney for London and America, Scouse if playing hometown gig etc.
His accent these days seems to be a bit 'BBC News' but also a touch of American twang but he does live there now.
and of course no one here
has different voices for differing occasions.
It's ridiculous to suggest...
..that an accent is a fixed and immutable thing. Obviously, some people are more suggestible than others, but the way you speak can easily be affected by outside influences. I used to live with a load of Cumbrians and quickly began to pick up some of their pronunciations and inflections.
Accents
Some people just have accents that change. I have a bit of Geordie in my accent now, though I'm not from here. I remember watching a documentary about John Barrowman. He has a US accent, but his parents are Scottish ex-pats, and when he's with them he has a thick Scottish accent.
"I have a bit of Geordie in my accent now"
....to which, in various parts of the UK, we might respond:
oh, really?
Gor blimey, lor' luvaduck
there's lovely
fab gear, lychhhhe
fur play ta ye
awayaboogamanwhyayemancannylassandoontheblaydonracestitsootforthalads
Sound the Entirely Anecdotal Observation Klaxon...
...but I reckon there's a link between having a good musical ear and a tendency to absorb accents, often unwittingly. Many musical people I've known over the years have quite protean speaking voices, not just in terms of accent but in rhythm, style and stresses too. I don't know if the musical thing is utterly spurious, but it seems like it ought to make sense.
Anyway, I've had to really watch it in the past because I've often unknowingly mimicked other people's speech patterns and rhythms, as well as adopting elements of their accents, when I'm in deep conversation. In my early twenties a couple of people thought I was taking the piss, and it gave me a real shock. I make myself stop, now.
So I don't blame the likes of Kershaw for having shifting accents. I think he's a knob for any number of other reasons instead.
oh good I'm glad its not just me that does that
I'm fascinated by voices and accents and absorb other peoples vocal inflections like a sponge. Next time someone pulls me up on it I'll blame my musical ear!
I think part of the problem is if I hear a particularly interesting accent I immediately want to do an impersonation of it. When Rob Brydon & Steve Coogan did 'The Trip' it was like watching myself (only much funnier)
Good point
Although I don't know that it's a musical ear. I like listening to music, but would struggle to play a chord.
I have, on the other hand, had a natural tendency to language, and pick them up relatively easily.
Now, depending upon the person to whom I am talking, I can sound mid Atlantic, Naarwich, posh faint Embra brogue, proper Surrey, or some bastardization of all four.
It isn't a conscious thing, just that I pick up and tend to mimic the intonations and accents around me if I spend a long enough time there. the GF at the moment comments that she struggled to understand when my parents came to stay.
how can forget
The hilarity of Joss Stone accepting her award in a mid atlantic accent having spent 90% of her life in Devon.
ridicule for the jagger
deserved
Jagger
Any man who can take a Howlin' Wolf* song to the top of the charts will always have my respect.
*(yes, Little Red Rooster is a Willie Dixon song, but The Wolf made it his own)
And got Howlin' Wolf on Shindig
I often wonder
what a no-nonsense giant of a man like Wolf made of these effete, skinny white British kids with the funny haircuts who arrived in 1964 showing unprecedented respect to the black bluesmen.
It must have been a classic case of when worlds collide.
skinny white kids
Must have blown their minds that the Brits even knew they existed. The royalty cheques would have helped, provided the poor sods hadn't already had their publishing rights filched. Kudos to the Stones for getting the great man on mainstream TV.
May be apocryphal, but didn't they say at a US press conference that they were hoping to see Muddy Waters? 'Where's that?' asked the US journo.
the Peel thing
strikes me as no more than jealousy. The great man managed to become, much to his own astonishment, a national treasure, be it Radio 1 or Home Truths on Radio 4. People who had never heard of Napalm Death hung on his every word on Saturday mornings. I always listened to Kershaw on Radio 3 and with that and Late Junction I spent a fortune on strange and wonderful records played on those programmes. But he's never broken out of the specialist market and maybe looked at Peel's career thought, why not me?
That's exactly how it reads to me
.
I could understand his Glaswegian
You ruthless cultural oppressor (you..)
He may be stupid at times
and often stubborn to the point of "I'm right, you are wrong". We can all behave like that sometimes. Who else but a daft sod would want to go into a war zone. At least he turned down I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here.
I hated it when the Beeb removed Tommy Vance's Thursday show from the Radio One schedules to make way for Andy. I learnt to appreciate the music he introduced me to, still a long way from the World Music he became evangelical about. In the days when he discovered Ted Hawkins, Michelle Shocked and the magical Swinging Swede, Jimmy Jenson it became a programme I looked forward to hearing (and recording).
I will read the book and hope I enjoy it as much as I am enjoying Mark Radcliffe's current offering. I am also interested in what he left out. I believe it has a happy ending, containing photographs of him reunited with his children. Perhaps now he may choose to calm down and grow old gracefully. Doubt it, silly bugger.
Fair play to him
I hope he gets out of his rut, but I guess it wasn't just the Simon Bates and DLTs of this world who had the unbearable egos at Radio 1. Come to think of it, wasn't he lampooned as 'the earnest northern DJ' on the Smashie and Nicey mockumentary?
I owe Kershaw big time
No one ever came close to introducing me to more music that I love than Andy Kershaw. From the mid 80's to the early 90's I happily recorded the entire radio show then dubbed the ones I liked onto cassette (with spoken intros and comments from Kershaw).
I have over 160 C90s of this and I've started to digitize them. There are loads of acts on the tapes that I heard first on Kershaw and ended up buying their entire catalogues (my home taping never killed music). Richard Thompson and John Prine for example.
I picked up quite a lot of world music from him but that never became a first choice of mine. He played southern soul a lot - James Carr comes to mind. He made field recordings; I recall D.L. Menard the great Cajun singer/songwriter being interviewed by Kershaw at his home in rural Louisiana. It all sounded so great that I wanted to go there myself - and I did. He argued the merits of Country long before anyone else of my generation (notable exception being Elvis Costello).
He always came across to me as someone I could get drunk with and drone on all night about music.
I fell truly sorry for everyone involved in any way in his downfall. Some of his behaviour was very poor. But who can say how anyone will re-act under mental stress.
Kershaw will always be on the side of the angels down our way.
"famous person in large ego shock"
So: what's Andy done that warrants the kind of unfettered hostility that's normally reserved for the clearly malevolent Jo Whiley?
He's a bit full-on, he's a tad northern, he has/had a drink problem, he hit the charley too hard for a bit, and he wouldn't take no for an answer when his wife left him because he fucked around once too often.
Oh, and worst of all, he's too lacking in self awareness to even see the game (let alone play it), he likes the Bhundu Boys, he called John Peel (who's dead) for what he was, and he thinks fags are great.
Tell you what; wake me up again when he's as rotten to the core as Keith Richard, or when he's made up some wars because Jesus told him to.
And "famous person's autobiography is self-serving" stunner
I'm not saying it's right but...
his media personality ie. professional "good bloke" (in the mold of John Peel) chafes somewhat with what we know of his non-media personality, ie. bitter, violent alcoholic. Perhaps people feel duped.
Keith....
....'rotten to the core'!
A bit naughty, tiresome drug-use (when isn't drug-use tiresome?), clothes-sense gone absent-without-leave since 1969, but 'rotten to the core'?
After all, he was in The Rolling Stones in 1964.
Makes him pretty much perfect, doesn't it?
Yes with all those admirable features
it would be wrong to call a twat a twat.
John Peel's dead? Any news on Gerry Rafferty?
He died
Didn't you hear?
What?
No one told me...
Despicable review
By Rachel Cooke.She obviously has some axe to grind. She mentions that he skips over his 'unhappy year'. She fails to recognise that him being frank about this time would almost certainly see him in prison again.I would suggest also that his ex-partner may possibly have taken out a legal injunction on the book being released without her agreement - I base this judgement on fact that it was planned for release last september but was pulled only a couple of days before release.
She objects to his description of Live Aid being 'dubious' and 'Feminists' being humourless but I would suggest that both of these descriptions (with clarification) could be accurate. Whatever the size of his ego and whatever misdemeanours he has committed against her, the blatant prevention of him seeing his kids is pretty inexcusable. For someone who was clearly a fan but later got pissed off because of the failure to hold an interview it smacxks of sour grapes. What about the book Rachel? This isnt a book review it's a character assassination - shameful.
"the blatant prevention of him seeing his kids is pretty
inexcusable" but it was being enforced by the courts and not something they do lightly.
'not something they do lightly'
Are you sure?
I always think
and it's why I rarely read them, even in Word, that a review says as much about the reviewer as the reviewed.
Correct
And why wouldn't it? Just as a writer's attitudes, hobbyhorses and prejudices often feed into their fiction, it follows that a journalist's feed into theirs.
not sure I totally agree
Fiction is one thing. A review is another. I'd expect and hope a review by a serious journalist would have some sort of grounding in fact. It seems to me that Ms Cooke's "previous" with Mr Kershaw does appear to clouded her objectivity. I'm not sure what the point of such a review is. Is she reviewing the book or his life?
I think maybe you missed my deliberate jokey wording here
surrounding the word "fiction"... ;-)
Supporting the editorial line, lets remember
"Lets send Kershaw to Donnington" would have been a very funny suggestion at the time.
The 'school bully' made successful by a stroke of luck here. All fitted very comfortably into the 80's Whistle Test editorial line, with regard to Rock music. Here was another ludicrous fool, convinced that their own limited taste should be a kind of prescription for everyone. A few years later on Kershaw was even encouraged to deliver a kind of monolog. Where the entire genre was described as "an arpeggio away from Punk Rock". Because even Punk was of course "crap."
The trip to Donnington in the clip above, one carefully selected interview aside, seems to show more intelligence and humour than was intended. But against the plan, the humour is more directed at Kershaw. And modesty in the face of mocking hostility from those interviewed. You wonder what hit the cutting room floor.
Outside the box office "can you hear me mother?" someone calls out. I would assume more a suggestion about Kershaws pyjamas, than one merely aimed at his accent. Kershaw comes out looking like what he was, self righteous and arrogant, far beyond his age and musical experience.
Predictably, time has shown us the music that survived, and retained its audience. You won't find many listening to the poorly crafted and cruel rubbish that Kershaw was painstakingly 'interested' in at the time these days.
And in reference to the review of Kershaws character, more than the book - its spot on if you ask me. Maybe we all pay our dues, sooner or later.
It astounds
me the number of people on here casting judgment on someones character when they have never met them. Marky, you seem to be prepared to judge the book without reading it. You are perfectly within your rights not to want to read it but equally I am perfectly able to dismiss your opinion as irrelevant since you know so little about the character ofthe man you ave just slaughtered. This site is bloody pious sometimes.
Ok what inspires it ...
its some kind of extremely feeble readdressing of the balance. They would have been impelled, against their will, to include at least a few references to music based on sales. Hence "lets send Kershaw to Donnington."
Difficult to conceive of now, but certain forms of music were effectively restricted in their airplay remember. By what I've described before as a kind of 'self appointed critical elite'. Disproportionately replaced instead by music which never achieved any serious penetration. As far as I can see its not unreasonable to use words like "self righteous" and "arrogant" to describe this behaviour. Especially when you are deeply aware of how aesthetically ill-judged, and frankly wrong it was.
But mainly, its not unreasonable to expect that those employed by the BBC, (salaries funded not by advertising) would feel obligated towards some kind of impartiality.
So your point is not
that Andy Kershaw is a complete twat? Rather that the BBC are wankers for sending someone who doesn't like heavy metal to report on a heavy metal concert. I have sympathy with that view but it is a completely different subject. I concur with his comments if he made them that heavy metal is one arpeggio away from punk. Not sure that amounts to a criticism of HM unless he has previously completely slagged off punk. Since a lot of the bands he was touting fell into the punk category I very much doubt somehow.Incidentally re his spat with Peel - as much as Peel is justifiably revered as a groundbreaking DJ of iconic status his choice in music could at times be breathtakingly awful.I preferred the music that AK played without question.
Well we all have our own tastes -
Whether Kershaw is "a twat" or not … who cares. All I can say for certain is that there is one very important professional respect, where the behavioral patterns of what is commonly known as a "twat" were clearly evident. As mentioned.
"The BBC are wankers" - no I didn't say that. Not this time anyway. What I was hinting at was that The Whistle Test circa 1984 had certain approach to presenting the diversity of music, that indicates a fair amount of masterbation was going on. This assertion made for the very good reasons outlined above.
We all have our own tastes. I think those with a more open mind, learn to accept that our appreciation of music is first of all about understanding. But also about some kind of identification. Either you get it or you don't. I think we learn, hopefully with experience, that our tastes may possibly develop and mature over time. I would even venture to suggest that more complex, and highly accomplished forms of music, can by their nature be more difficult to understand. It would be very wrong to assume that just because someone chooses to turn up with a profoundly annoying checked shirt, and a condescending attitude, that this person necessarily has a clue about music. Very clearly not.
Complete cobblers
'Our appreciation of music is first of all about understanding'.There is lots of music I love that I dont understand at all - surely the beauty of music is the mystery that it sometimes throws up. I dont like music based only on whether it is complex or not or whether I have developed a maturity with which to appreciate it which seems to be what you are implying. In fact quite the reverse. My musical snobbery in my teens and early twenties prevented me from appreciating the more simple music that I now find very exciting - artists like Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry, Bob Marley, Yardbirds, early Rolling Stones, John Lee Hooker to name only a few. None of these artists would have appeared in my record collection in those days. Musical tastse evolve in all of us in different ways.
Obviously people with 'profoundly annoying checked shirts' are not allowed to have an opinion on music.
Looks like you misunderstood
I used two words "understanding" and "identification." Understanding does simply mean a technical understanding. Merely appreciating a chord sequence and a few melodies and harmonies over that. Its much deeper than that. And I agree its an extremely intuitive, almost mystical thing.
When we really "get" a form of music, we know we got it because it moves us. It gives us a genuine emotional response. This response can be one of joy, pathos and sadness, or even sheer glorious expressive energy. People who don't possess these things themselves will never get it. But I would suggest that they are to be pitied, rather than criticised for this deficiency.
There are forms of music that I don't understand that well, but here's the point - I would now like to understand. And I would hope that I've progressed enough through experience to admit that. Instead of having the arrogance first of all to assume that because its appeal is not obvious to me, that it has no value. And then to adopt a preposterous position of superiority and pomposity, over something I have no understanding or intuition towards .
"artists like Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry, Bob Marley, Yardbirds, early Rolling Stones, John Lee Hooker" The examples that I you quoted there are good ones. I would agree that in each case that is great, in some cases superb music. Where I would disagree is that it is necessarily "simple." In Blues for example, despite a certain chord structure, there is a huge expressive dynamic. For example tones are expressively bent, the improvisation comes from a genuine emotional and immediate place. Personality is expressed in this way, each good artist learning from his influences, but not 'copying' them. Hardly any other music has this form of expressive complexity. People have to approach this music in an intuitive way, in order to understand it, thats not simple at all.
Classical music: I once met a very nice lady cellist who was very erm… helpful in explaining these things - they sometimes say that classical music is more "intellectual" than popular music. That its pleasure is more likely to be derived intellectually than emotionally . Maybe this is its downfall. But just because music is complex, sometimes willfully so, doesn't mean necessarily thats its bad for being so. To be actively critical of music that is ambitious technically and emotionally, is cave man territory. Whether the cave man is wearing his mothers dish cloth or not, is of course up to him.
I think you may have misunderstood
the comments that Kershaw made when he said Heavy Metal is one arpeggio away from punk. I dont know for sure because I havent seen the exact quote. I am about to embark upon the book so if I gain more insight I will come back to this post. I dont believe that Kershaw would deride a whole musical genre without either having his tongue firmly in his cheek or being wilfully provocative which is the wont of journalists. I think I see his point - if you take the opening riff to say Black Sabbaths Paranoid it is certainly not dissimilar to punk. Regarding whether music is simple or not is a matter I addressed only in the practical ability to play not in terms of feel. For example I tried to learn guitar but didnt have any ability whatsoever but in the short time I learned I could play a passable House of the Rising Sun and Smoke on the Water. Neither are particularly difficult to learn but the originals of both have appealed to an awful lot of people over the years. Likewise my daughter is currently learning keyboard and one of the first serious pieces she learned to play was Pachabels Canon. This has an absolutely exquisite melody but can be learned by someone at an entrance level to the keyboard. Musical complexity can be a sham - it doesnt have to be complex to be good. I dont think for one minute that Kershaw would argue the case for complexity - more likely he would advocate something diametrically opposite.
Much as I'd like to argue,I think the problem with this exchange
.. is that in some respects we agree. I have not, and have at no point suggested that "simple" music is in any way inferior. What we are defining as the meaning of the word "simple", that needs to be thought about. You could argue I suppose that someone banging their head on a desk is "simple music".
I'm sorry but I'm not that interested in what Kershaw would argue. As far as I'm concerned he forfeited his right to be taken seriously a long time ago. He looked and sounded like someone that was wired wrongly in some way. A kind of psychological ticking bomb.
His violent "off stage" behaviour, when I learned of it, did nothing more than confirm my suspicions. He was the absolute epitome of 80's musically ill-educated twerp. If it weren't for his inevitable victims, I might say that it's almost satisfying to be proved right.
His one redeeming feature - he was funny. Wrong, but funny.
Oh FFS
Will you two just get on with it and have a proper argument...
Here's the proper argument then
I think Kershaw is getting a shit kicking on here because his ex partner portrayed him in the media as a nasty evil bastard. His crime was infidelity. Not nice but not yet punishable by the Electric chair or a lethal injection. Initially he was devastated that he had lost her but I have no sympathy for him there. You play away you take your punishment. However preventing him from seeing his kids saw him spiral out of control. In a situation like that I am sure many of us would stop acting in a rational way - see Fathers for Justice as an example.His case was highly publicised in the media and very few people took his side. This story is playing itself out in many households throughout the country and generally it is the guy that is painted as the bastard. I have news for you - the phrase 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned' is not mythology. Maybe he did a lot of stuff wrong, maybe he needed a restraining order but when things calmed down I am sure he had the opportunity to rekindle his relationship with his kids.I don't ordinarily subscribe to the 'let them burn in hell'punishment. Rehabilitation should be available to anyone in this situation. Unfortunately everyone including the reviewer in the Guardian is quick to pass judgement on him rather than the book he has published. If the book is crap fair enough but to write a review and barely mention it is an exercise in futility.If a music magazine reviews for example the latest Gillian Welch album I want to read about the album not what the reviewer thinks about the artists personal life which has no relevance whatsoever. Marky pissed me off because his whole judgement about Kershaw is based on the fact that Kershaw was sent by his employers to review a heavy metal festival (not his fault) and that he wears an annoying check shirt.He then continues to trash Kershaws taste in music whilst preaching to us that only people with the ability to understand complex music are able to have a worthwhile view on music. Question: If Kershaw didn't have the restraining order and was living in perfect harmony with his partner would the book have received the review and subsequent battering that it has got? Answer: A resounding no.
Once again character assassination takes price of place over artistic evaluation.
Sorry to get on my soapbox but I am sick of it.
Oops
My attempt at light-heartedness backfired then... Sorry all.
You gave yours. My general point then …
Question: Does Andy Kershaw deserve this kicking?
Answer: yes
My general point about Kershaw and his ilk
Just because people may have been at some point in their lives mistakenly employed by the BBC, does not in my book, necessarily qualify them to continue to reap the benefits of said appointment without any genuine musical knowledge whatsoever.
For example: Whilst the word "arpeggio" may sound funny delivered by a thick Yorkshire accent, its use at the same time betrays a kind of careless disregard for accuracy. Why? A guitar solo, good or bad, is rarely, if ever an "arpeggio". An Arpeggio is merely the notes of a chord played in sequence.
Thats what I mean by the taboo and controversial phrase "Musically Educated" you see. If you have no musical understanding, then its unlikely that you are qualified to critique a form of music that is clearly, in every conceivable way, far beyond your limited musical appreciation.
Takes a bow
I am not 'musically educated'
Guess I better shut the fuck up and leave it to the experts. Thought Kershaw was from Lancashire though. What do I know?
Lancashire, Yorkshire ...
… my casual disregard for geography, is roughly equivalent to Kershaws for music. I'm not claiming to be an expert on geography or linguistics though.
North of Watford eh?
It's all the same ;-)
You're banging a drum that I have shared.
Music journalists are employed because they can write and they like music. They know little about music itself. This isn't a problem until they start trying to use musical terms in their writing.
A certain Mr Hepworth was, I seem to remember, guilty of this a while back, getting a gentle Blog kicking for talking about power chords without knowing what one of the things was.
Mistaking a rich Lancashire accent for the flattened vowels of a Yorkshire one is a tad tin-eared, though and does somewhat undermine the high-handed stance you are attempting to take.
Yes Lenny
Yes almost anyone in other words. But should it be this way? These blazing mistakes when describing music show more than a lack of understanding. They show a lack of interest. And this lack of interest is quite a telling thing.
Claiming "expertise" on a subject that you have no basic knowledge is an attitude of incredible arrogance. "ahh, so you are an expert listener then are you Mr Pompoustwat?". "Yes I've been listening to music now for almost 3 years! but my opinion is a really educated one. It must be I'm so smart!" Its all The Emperors New Clothes I'm afraid.
Most music journalists are incapable of tackling the most interesting thing. How does the music sound? How is this achieved? what effect does it have? instead every conceivable technique is used to discuss everything except the music itself.
Yes I would agree that mistaking Kershaw for a Yorkshireman did undermine my point about "accuracy" somewhat. I was going to Wiki him before posting, but unfortunately didn't do this, based on the fact that I have always found the man so intolerable in every conceivable way.
Dont worry about your innaccuracy Marky
Your posts have been littered with them. How you have the affront to label us all as pompous because we do not know all of the technical complexities regarding music is complete nonsense. I have collected music for nigh on 40 years and have devoted my life to it.To be told effectively that I know nothing about it is incredibly insulting but you seem too thick skinned to remotely consider anyone else as you are right etc etc. Have you ever considered that AK is just an enthusiastic fan like the rest of us? Also, consider the number of musicians out there who can't read music. Clearly not experts however that does not mean they can't make music. Someone just have a natural ear for a tune. Thankfully I dont need a Phd to like music although I am beginning to feel I need an interpreter to read through your drivel.
It's not that black and white
For instance, the "How is this achieved?" question is of very little interest to me at all. Nor do I expect movie critics to be experienced film directors, or restaurant reviewers to be trained chefs and be able to explain the technical details of either discipline. You may differ, and that's fine.
The reviewers I like are simply the ones who write in a way that appeals to me. Some will be musicians, and some won't. There are no hard and fast rules. David Hepworth isn't a musician. Mark Ellen is. Yet the former - in my opinion - is a decent reviewer of records, with interesting things to say about those records, while Mark Ellen hardly does any at all.
The other thing that people tend not to consider when arguing the "music critics should be musicians" line is that many of them are: Mark Ellen again. Kate Mossman. Bob Stanley. Neil Tennant. Ira Kaplan. Sacha Frere-Jones. Chrissie Hynde. Kris Needs. Charles Shaar Murray. Terry Staunton. David Keenan. Chris Roberts. David Toop. It took me 20 seconds to think of those, and I'm sure there are plenty more.
Being a musician is one skill. Writing about music is another. And being proficient at the former is no guarantee of proficiently at the latter.
Ok I take those points - they are made well
But I have not said that all music reviewers are bad ones.
If someone has at some point in their life taken enough of an interest in music to actually learn and study it, then thats a fair starting point. It shows a genuine interest. What I would expect to follow from this, would be a a liability to understand the degree of commitment and devotion that is involved in the pursuit. This can do nothing more than increase their tendency to make more educated distinctions.
As for the response above - at no point during this thread have I made personal or insulting comments about anyone. Yet
Good post
Bela.
See, I couldn't define an
See, I couldn't define an arpeggio as articulately as you did.
I know what it sounds like though. So when Kershaw - or anyone else - helps paint an aural portrait of what a piece of music sounds like, I'm not too fussed about its technical accuracy. He probably would misuse "glissando" as well. But if I understand the piece better, then....well, you get my point.
Your final paragraph is, I'm afraid, as patronizing and snobbish as anything I've read here. I have little musical understanding. I am, therefore, unqualified to critique a form of music that is clearly, in every conceivable way, far beyond my limited musical appreciation. Well, I think I'm perfectly placed to be able to express that I think something is utter crap, and to try to explain why. I wouldn't get the technical pieces right (I may use the phrase 'kerplunkety bits' instead of the appropriate musical term, but I bet I can write a good paragraph on it. Why in the name of Christ disqualifies me, or Kershaw? Your stance is, to use a technical phrase, bollocks.
Take that bow, and shove it. I don't think the viola player will miss it much.
Gentlemen
Please argue your points with resorting to rudeness or abuse.
Thanks.
Ok without resorting to abuse
"I know what it sounds like though". No you clearly don't. An arpeggio sounds like a sequence of harmonic notes, usually played sustaining into each other. Depending on whether or not the arpeggio relates, as it should, to the chord sequence of the music. A melodic or scale based sequence of notes (a solo) sounds completely different.
I think its unlikely that there are individuals that are actually so disinterested in music that they are unable to tell the difference to the way that sounds. It is possible however that they are willfully deaf to what might very well a very ingenious and very musical contribution from the musician.
Some people just don't like to be told they are wrong Fraser, thats the problem.
The most irritating example of the above was Paul Morley.
Don't know if you saw it, but he was on some music thingy on the telly. He was unable to distinguish a major chord from a minor by ear. And yet here is a man who has deigned to pass judgement on what is good and bad in music.
Yes
I did see the first episode of that. But it could be seen where it was headed. It was the Royal College of Music I seem to remember. The most interesting thing was his complete lack of any understanding at the beginning, about the degree of talent and dedication, that mastering music to any degree actually takes. I can't help thinking that kind of thing should be square one surely for any critic.
Morley
- now there's a fud. Kershaw towers above him.
You wrote the last paragraph
You wrote the last paragraph with a total ironic twist, didn't you. It's OK to 'fess up.
Can I just check with you that it's OK for me to hold an opinion about some music given my relative technical illiteracy?
Yes Ok if you insist
…just don't try to earn a living writing and broadcasting about it, thats all I ask. Please.
Just a question, Si..
How angry do you get when ill-informed commentators such as Alan Green, ignorant of the laws of football but thinking that they know how to ref a game because they've watched loads, criticise the performance of a referee? The same thing applies to musical criticism. Or, for that matter, all forms of criticism. I want to know that the person writing a critique of a restaurant or a movie knows a bit about food or film and does not have as a qualification the fact that they've eaten lots of dinners or seen lots of DVDs and is capable of stringing together a coherent sentence.
No- one is saying that you have to have an in-depth knowledge of music and musical theory in order to appreciate it but it does help if you're writing about it and wanting to do so accurately.
With respect Lenny
that is exactly what Marky is saying and is exactly what has got up my nose. I would love to know the list of artists he reveres and which of them is musically literate and which isn't. There are people who write about music that may not know the technicalities.Heaven knows there are musicians who make music that are not much more knowledgeable.I venture to suggest that John Peel was no more technically savvy about music than Andy Kershaw is but he didn't get a kicking because he didn't have a 'Yorkshire' accent or wore check shirts. Mind you he did refer to his wife as the pig so maybe he should be re-evaluated too.
WIth respect Steve
...that is not what I was saying. To clarify I was not saying that you "have to have an in-depth knowledge of music and musical theory in order to appreciate it." At all.
Great question Lenny
I'm not entirely sure it's apples to apples.
I think that the appreciation of music is a largely subjective experience - it's one person's opinion. I can filter according to my assessment of that person's knowledge. Take your example and apply it to an area where I do have a high level of technical knowledge - rugby.
Brian Moore- annoying as hell sometimes, but actually coming from a pretty solid place technically.
Miles Harrison/Austin Healey - idiots. I don't rate their opinions as highly. They are, however, great color commentators and can give very good reportage on the game itself as a game.
The other difference is that I can objectively score a referee. It's a 4 hour process, but I can actually tell you how good, or not, a referee was.
I don't think you can do that with a piece of music. Is there really an objective standard for what's "good" and what isn't? I'm not sure that there is. What differentiates music criticism for me isn't necessarily the technical knowledge of the writer, but the actual standard of the writing. There have been many reviews with which I have disagreed, but I've actually enjoyed the review itself.
Let's take Maconie as an example. I don't know what his technical music knowledge is - but I like listening to him and reading him review music. When I read criticism I don't ask the state of knowledge of the critic. The absence of technical knowledge does not preclude anyone from having the right to critique anything.
Sorry, Si..
I thought you were an association football ref.
Anyway.
"The absence of technical knowledge does not preclude anyone from having the right to critique anything."
Everyone has a right to an opinion. But if someone who knew fuck-all squared about rugby published a beautifully-written, pithy and amusing piece about a game you'd reffed, and gave you a right royal going-over for all the mistakes he thought you'd made, you would, I suspect, be a tad miffed.
Also known as: Saturday afternoon for me
I dunno, to be honest. At some point it's water off a duck's back given the amount of feedback and self analysis I get/do.
To answer your point more substantially, I see what you're driving at, and I think I disagree.
Critique of refereeing: he was bollocks at the scrum because of A B and C. There are tangible data points that can be examined, and verified/rejected.
Critique of music: a lot more subjective. What sounds good to you may not sound good to me. Not for any technical reason, but just because of idiosyncratic taste. Music, like Art, can't really be measured for quality. I do think there's a valid chain of thought that says everyone's opinion is equally valid on such things
Erm...
Marky Can I just ask how exactly you know for certain that he doesn't know what an arpeggio sounds like? Just interested
It's "uninterested" not "disinterested"
Uninterested means indifferent while disinterested means unbiased.
If you're pulling people up on their use of music terms, I think you need to be corrected on your vocabulary.
See what you've started? It's all going to rise to a crescendo now ;)
Sorry Marky..
..but both Jazz and metal players use arpeggios heavily in their solos, so technically an arp may not be a solo, a solo can quite often be made entirely of one (or more)
Nope
"Heavily" no. Sometimes they appear once or twice within the structure of the music. A solo composed completely of arpeggios is extremely rare. An arpeggio does nothing more than backup the chord sequence, and takes it nowhere.
Listen to a piece by Bach. Arpeggios are used within this music, but its only a framework, a structure. Any melody has to exist pulling against the harmonic sequence in some way.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
AK: started well, went off the rails and became perceived a clown.
Marky, at least vis a vis this thread: started well, went off the rails and became perceived a clown.....
Funny that.
Ahem
Not to mention....
Arpeggios don't just "appear once or twice"; they're the very essence of the shredding metal solo.
Nope - you won't get away with that
The last clip, The only one which is actually a full solo, has melodic sections woven in 1.14, to make it more interesting. Its not merely a series of arpeggios.
The first two clips are excercises not solos. The second one is a series of "dinimished arpeggios" ones meaning that there are added notes for interest. Rock music generally uses straight minor or major chord structures. Those arpeggios are being (in this case rather stupidly and ineffectively) played in contradiction to the chord sequence. By a technician, and not a particularly good musical musician, as it happens.
My original statement was "A guitar solo, good or bad, is rarely, if ever an "arpeggio". Its never a single arpeggio obviously. Yes you can search out painstaking (actually very rare) examples where many arpeggios are used, and that is what you have done. But the general point still stands. Hence the word "rarely".
"The general point"
What's that? I've got a bit lost. I thought your original statement was that Andy Kershaw revealed his ignorance when he said that metal was "one arpeggio away from punk rock". Quite where guitar solos and how much or little they depend on arpeggios came into it, and how good or bad a musician you consider Yngwie Thyngie to be, I doubt even you can remember by now.
The point that still stands isn't yours; it's Shane's, supported by those YouTube clips. And that point was (I think) that Andy Kershaw may or may not be ignorant of the technicalities of music, but his use of the word "arpeggio" in that quote is a bit rubbish when cited as evidence for the prosecution, because the use of arpeggios is indeed a well-known - perhaps even the best-known - feature of metal guitar-playing.
Call it shredding, call it noodling, call it whatever you like, but without arpeggios it'd have 80% fewer notes, and I think it's reasonable to assume that that was all Andy Kershaw was trying to say.
Nope this is getting tiresome
Clearly then, because people have been mislead by those dishonestly chosen clips above ...
Generally speaking guitarists, playing that form of music in solos, do not play "arpeggios." They play scale based music. The vast majority of the playing (and some of it is showing off and not particularly "good" playing as such), uses the full 7 modal notes of the key, or the Pentatonic 5 note scale. Whilst you can find exceptions to this, technically obsessed players, that like to show off their musical knowledge my shoehorning arpeggios into the music, it is by no means general practice.
In a straightforward major or minor arpeggio, (not a complex diminished or augmented one) there are only 3 notes in an arpeggio. Played on octaves. Intervals are too wide for this to provide enough melodic interest.
Indeed, to be completely pedantic, at the time in 1984, arpeggios would have been a very rarely used part what you are calling "metal guitar playing." Except as the foundation and backing, not the soloing. Not never but rarely.
Was merely "an example" as I said when I mentioned it. It was a good example, but one that has been blown hugely out of proportion. I would even defend Kershaw, in that it was undoubtedly delivered as an amusing comment, designed to be delivered with his accent, and not as an accurate one. He didn't care about accuracy clearly
So what, then...
is your point?
NO! I WAS JUST KIDDING!
An observer writes (Slighty Off-Topic)
Contemporary shred and Metal guitar solos include what is referred to as 'Sweep Picking'. This is a method of playing scales or arpeggiated notes extremely fast by 'sweeping' the pick across the strings and matching the picking motion with the left hand technique.
Although Wikipedia is not necessarily definitive, I think part of its description of this technique serves us well, to whit:-
The technique is often applied for but not limited to arpeggios, with a common shape being the one- or two-octave stacked triad; or in scalar terms the first (tonic), third (mediant) and fifth (dominant) of a scale, played twice with an additional tonic added to the highest point in the shape. For example, an A minor stacked triad would notate as A-C-E-A-E-C-A
Like it or not, arpeggios are now an integral part of metal soloing.
What was the question again?
Seriously, isn't it possible that Kershaw simply meant that metal was just a more fancy version of punk - hence the arpeggio reference?
That's what I took him to mean. I'm sure there was no great deep meaning to what he said.
Ok losing it now
"Contemporary" and "are now." The subject of this discussion is 1984 to 1986! - thats the whole point of bringing it up!
The quote was "an arpeggio away from Punk Rock" - a single arpeggio! 98% of that type of guitar playing was scale based, nothing to do with "arpeggios". Thats what I said. Again and again. And again.
Whilst it may be the the case that nowadays, a few nerds unable to tell the difference between music and masturbation, desperately looking for something new to do, are now playing arpeggios, as part of their work, It wasn't happening in 1984 on a regular basis. These "arpeggios" (not real harmonic arpeggios) like I said, seem to be played AGAINST the chord sequence. And are therefore more accurately defined as "a series of random meaningless notes chosen because they are easy to play very fast."
Thankee
The great irony of this thread
Is that it started with a complaint about a non-musician not understanding what an arpeggio is, and is now an argument between a number of musicians who can't agree either.
I'd genuinely appreciate it if you could all draw a line under this discussion and move on.
Thank you.
Thank the Lord
.
The Lord?
Bit sycophantic. What's wrong with 'Fraser' or 'Mr Lewry'?
What happens if we keep
What happens if we keep replying to this thread?
How thin will it get before
How thin will it get before it's down to a word per line?
Dunno mate
There's only one way to find out.
Here man
I'm thinking outside the box, Sir Alan.
Breathe in!
Not much more space left now before it disappears. And what happens to really long words like antidisestablishmentarianism.
Oh.
Truly...
... we are disappearing up our own rectums now.
wow
Can I just say: this is a very edgy discussion.
I made a a comment once
When someone got a bit technical about the Foo Fighters. I think I said that I wouldn't know some technical thing from apples - but it sounds good when I play it loudly with the car windows down.
I don't understand it. I like it, or I don't. Some of it's 'loud' some of it isn't. I couldn't describe chord progression, or most other musical terms. I don't think in any way it impedes my ability to enjoy the music.
I think I'm still admirably equipped to voice the opinion that "well, that's a bit crap, isn't it?" because, at the end of the day, it's all subjective. You may "understand" the music better than I (what does that mean, anyway?) but your opinion is still worth the same as mine - one.
Does this mean, referring to your post, that I have a closed mind? I think it's open enough to sniff patronizing comments when it sees them.
You misunderstood too
I am not criticising what became known as 'metal' music, at all. Thats what this whole thread is about. And I'm certainly not suggesting that an intuitive approach to deciding whether you value music is bad one. Quite the opposite, indeed I believe thats the only honest approach you can take.
Arsejuice
I don't get this, I don't identify with it in any way (I wouldn't know how to), and I'll never understand it (I don't even want to).
That's why I dig it out once a year and let it work its magic, and it's probably why I'll never get tired of it.
(Moonlight in Vermont by Captain Beefheart)
OGWT
I remember an OGWT that featured Spandau Ballet and Duran Duran. The various members were intermingled on a couple of couches, arms draped matily around ruffle bloused shoulders whilst Mark or David tried unsuccesfully to get a word of sense out of any of them.
After five or so excrutiating minutes they cut back to Andy Kershaw and the look of magisterial disdain as he regarded the couchful still resonates after thirty odd years.
I wonder if...
...his 'interview' with "Yoooooooooooooooooooooooooli" Jon Roth is anywhere on youtube?
Alcoholics
I read the article but not any part of his book. It sounds like Rachel's experience is of a time when AK was deep in the shit that alcoholism brings. I don't know Andy but I have known alcoholics and they are quite often decent folk transformed into complete cunts.
My mum was married to one
And I agree with kb's summary. He was lovely when off the grog and I would cheerfully have strangled him when he was on it.
Agree
Seems an accurate summation of AK's predicament and his spiralling out of control.
I remember
listening to Kershaw on Radio Aire in 1981/2 - he started doing the gig guide on Martin Kelner's early evening show and then got his own show. What I found really refreshing was that he was clearly not putting on an accent to sound "northern" nor was he modifying it for the radio, possibly the first person I'd encountered who sounded like a real person. For that reason I've always followed his career with varying degrees of interest and affection.
His subsequent career strikes me as the radio equivalent of another uncompromising and egotistical northerner with an (alleged) alcohol problem, Mark E Smith. I find the work of both generally great, but the more I hear of them as people the happier I am that I've never met them.
One final point - the Kershaw/Peel fallout was originally over Home Truths iirc - Kershaw thought it was dreadful southern middle class drivel and thought John Peel had in some way "sold out" (and told Peel so). I'm 100% with Andy Kershaw on Home Truths - one of the most awful programmes I've heard on Radio 4.
regardless of it all
his introduction of the smiths doing "bigmouth" on whistle test is the truest greatest televised introduction of any band i can remember...
Let's face it, he is a cock.
Let's face it, he is a cock. Without him we would not have middle aged white lefty types doing 'ethnic drumming' at local gala type gatherings.
Cock or Not
we're back to the argument about whether you have to like the individual to enjoy his/her work (or output). Inverted snobbishness about white middle-class males aside, AK promoted and popularised a lot of music that many of us would not have heard at the time from other sources, particularly not on other mainstream radio shows.
He had his 15 minutes in the sun. Like a lot of once-popular bands/artists, it now remains to be seen if he does anything else of worth, or whether he will be judged on a series of radio programmes that he made a number of years ago.
I liked "The Riddle"
.
perfect
Book came yesterday
and I'm loving it. Yes, he is opinionated and I don't agree with all of his musical loves. But he obviously loves music and is a total enthusiast.
When he appeared on Whistle Test laughing at Metal and then at Live Aid 'interviewing' Howard Jones and Phil Collins - I loved him for that. He was definitely speaking for me with his contempt for much of the mainstream.
Not much
Where's Sarcastica when you need it?
Oh Yeah
we really NEED Sarcastica, oh thanks
(same joke, different thread)
Excellent
Now all we have to do is sit back and wait for someone to explain why this isn't funny and our tribute to Stewart Lee will be complete.
Massive prawns Stew
Massive.
Crisp anyone?
.
Wait a minute
This is supposed to be a thread about Andy Kershaw? Where are all the fish related puns?
That's because...
..they've all been carping on about arpeggios...
Yeah
And banging on about how Kershaw probably couldn't even tuna guitar.
These days Andy Kershaw is something in oil *
* Only fans of Tom O'Connor and Stewart Lee will know how to complete this joke.
"He come out, Stew..."
well well
I only posted a link to a review and it has become one of the longest threads I have ever started. Not got much to do about AK anymore has it?
Still, LOOK AT THE SIZE OF IT!!!
Yes, it's certainly Big, JimBob...
...and I'm finding all that stuff about arpeggios probably as hilarious and bizarre as you are. In fact, round my way the sun's out, I'm off fora cycle in the country and in tribute to both that, the continued wellbeing of the Arpeggio Argument Society and the fact that we haven't had much music on this thread yet, here's the wholly appropriate 'Here Comes The Sun':
In answer to the OP
No, I don't think he does deserve it.
There are plenty of rock stars who behave much worse than the allegations made here, and yet they get a free pass, as others have said. I also hope that if my life is ever at a low ebb, that folks don't line up to give me a kicking.
Arpeggio
Archipelago, Archie Valparaiso - they are all the same arent' they?
I thought the Arpeggio
was the one
with the square steering wheel--it's surely the Marina that they are thinking of ...
[gets camel coat and driving gloves ...]
Hi Marky
lets call a truce and leave it up to the Aristocats .....
if AK
was saying metal is punk with added widdle - and that's how I interpret his quote - then he was bang on wasn't he?
but metal came first
which makes punk a kind of metal with less widdle
C'mon boys and girls
Let's get this debate back to rock and roll. Christ on a bike, Andy's even having a pop at Prog Rock! The bastard. He deserves all he gets now. Where's my incriminating photographs..?
Andy Kershaw: 'We've never really been very good at protest'
This will have to do for now. ;-}
Clearasil Ultra advert
Wish I hadn't seen that
… Someone put it out of its misery!
Better keep an eye out folks! Its clearly our moral responsibility to crush "the boogers" once again. With our thumb, like a fly on a window pane.
A bloke I know
uses a rather colourful turn of phrase to describe a hangover sufferer - "he had eyes like sheep's c**ts".
Watching that first clip, I now see exactly what he was getting it.
Nah, thats more than a hangover...
.. but got to be careful what I say obviously. At last its possible to surmise what the terrible lyric "Sometimes the snow falls down in June" actually means! Damn, its July
If only...
When Mark's phone rang mid-way through the Beatlecast, my immediate thought was that Liz Kershaw was calling to say "Oi! Tell those gobshite bastards on your blog to lay off my little brother, OK! And it's Lancashire, not bloody Yorkshire, got that! Eee, ecky thump, Turned out nice again, etc!"
Kersh on Radio Scotland
Tom Morton show yesterday (6th July).
The person that Tom mentions in his first sentence as having a ton of Kershaw tapes is me......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b0129c6h
He's on Richard Bacon this afternoon
on 5-Live.
Whilst dragging my tired ass out of bed this morning
(shouldn't have gone back to Melrose Ape's to watch The Apprentice' post quiz defeat) I caught a bit of Andy on 'Lorraine' (Kelly) on Daybreak, GMTV, TVAM, RISE, Big Breakfast - whatever.
She started the interview with talking about his 'year of hell' and he did get narky with her saying that's all most interviewers want to talk about.
Andy, that's the only reason the book was asked for and published. To the average punter they love a bit of fall and redemption. They really don't care about your championing of World Music, they listen to Snow Patrol. The trouble and strife is the interesting stuff for them and as its not the focus of your book they will probably be disappointed.
I'm gonna read your book cos of the music related side of your career and will skip over the last bit as I read about it at the time in lengthy interviews you gave. But I'm probably in the minority of the average person watching you on these mainstream shows.
Must say you seem v chipper and looking well so good luck to you, old son
I listened to him on Radio 5
this pm and was heartened by how well he sounded. Interestingly the same questions cropped up and again he tried to fend them off and get back onto his real passions ie. music and foreign travel. He did say however that the restraining order placed on him by the judge only referred to contact with his ex partner and it was her interpretation that the order extended to his kids. Thankfully his relationship with them has become stronger than ever.
Considering the nervous breakdown he had I still don't see the fairness of journalists and others kicking him. One thing though he was less than flattering about Rachel Cooke and her review so don't think she will be getting a Christmas card from him.
Onwards and upwards Andy - we need people like you around to neutralise the mediocrity.
And yet...
There was something rather unpleasant about the way he put down all his reviewers either on the basis of aggrieved northernness ("They're always called Camilla, aren't they?) or on the basis of their sex ("Listen, Love..."). There are deep and rather unlovely smelling reservoirs of bitterness within that soul.
Rachel Cooke
is Northern. She went to the local comprehensive round the corner from me in Sheffield.
Indeed.
As I commented upthread, I used to work with Liz Kershaw, and a common thread between both siblings seems to be the idea that they're constantly being thwarted by morally suspect southern Oxbridge types at the BBC. In Liz's case, it was more that she wasn't actually that good. I think Andy is by far the better broadcaster, but I find this relentless northern-ness a bit tiring (and before you sharpen your pens, let it be known I'm a Yorkshire man myself).
Wasn't reallly surprised
he had a go at Rachel Cooke to be honest. Her review was pretty spiteful - I know 2 wrongs and all that but surely she cant write that drivel and not expect a riposte?
Wow
Only just seen this.
If you want to calm down, the clique thread is chilled in comparison.
And I still don't know what an arpeggio is. But I'm sure they deserve a right kicking. That's what it's all about, right?
arpeggio
That's Liam and Noel's mum isn't it?
On the first Bob Dylan album
is a track called Pretty Arpeggio, I think
Well, there's a jolly good interview
by James Medd in the current edition of our favourite magazine about Mr Kershaw, which seems to balance out the Guardian's take on him
Good piece
now get Kersh back doing reviews, please
I agree - it is a very good article
He speaks very well on a whole range of subjects and for those that believe he had a massive fall out with John Peel I suggest you read the article. It is clear they had differences of opinions but to suggest that they had a parting of the ways seems pretty way off beam to me.
You mean he's got a chip...
...on both shoulders?
Curiously...
...I find myself at one with some - some! - of his views in the current issue's interview. The idea, for instance, that western rock/pop music has simply exhausted itself of fresh ideas through nothing more than longevity (60 years) is a compelling one.
Blues
I had a think about this one. And it's a good enough argument. But if it applies to rock/pop it must also apply to other forms of music.
The blues is still a valid musical form. Is anyone suggesting it has ran out of fresh ideas? The blues is much much older than pop/rock.
Likewise country music. Folk music. African musical styles (I don't know enough about them to go any further than that). Kersh likes and plays all these musical styles.
Rock/pop is now the common musical language. There may be limits to how far you can push the form - and I think these have already been reached - but almost all popular song now comes from pop/rock rather than older schools.
Does it need fresh ideas or just good new songs?
Not sure
I agree that one can still be original within the form, but quite often people want entirely NEW forms and that is how something like, say, dubstep emerges. It is also why someone like AK goes off looking for new forms in various other cultures, where they are actually - quite often - old forms in that culture.
I'm afraid...
...having previously had little to no opinion of any kind of Andy Kershaw, that interview made him come across as a bit of a self-important prick. I didn't think he was *wrong* about everything (although the whole "rock/pop is dead" shtick is stale, predictable and ill-conceived). He's just a bit fucking annoying.
S.I.P
Absolutely - "It doesn't worry me at all, but you have to do it twice as well as everyone else"...
Got to that quote on my second attempt. First time, I got stuck at "I think there's a limit to what can be done with four blokes and guitar, bass, drum and keyboard."
And yet Bob...
...I've read a few of his interviews in my time and the current Word one is by far the one he's come out BEST in!
He strikes me as being a bit like Gordon Ramsay - hugely passionate, controversial, prone to having a hectoring tone, will just go and do what he wants no matter what, cos that's the kind of guy he is. Both men have their followers and apologists; most of us will, however, simply reach for the off switch and leave them to it. (Andy may not have one, but radios still do.)
Well, quite.
Fortunately, I've got through 33 years on the planet without him impinging in any major way on my life, so I'm quite content for him to be a twat on his own time.
That sounds...
...like a good plan to me!
Obsessive
In the 90s I'd occasionally run into Andy Kershaw at the TT Races. Occasionally over a beer he'd play me recordings of claasic motorcycle racers on a hefty old reel-to-reel tape recorder that he'd be lugging around with him. I don't know how long he'd been into bikes, but his enthusiasm seemed heart-felt.
He always seemed to me to be a nice enough guy, albeit a tad obsessive. Was very sorry to hear about his tough times, but can't help feeling that his obsessive nature was also a contributing factor. Hope he's coping better these days.
The recordings of classic motorcycle racers..
Were these recordings of lots of chaps who all sounded like Mr Cholmondley-Warner, recounting how they nearly had a wizard prang on the Ballacraine Corner, which is sort of OK, or lots of recordings of Charles Flintwistle going past on his Rudge Black Shadow Triple Viper Deluxe because you could hear the difference that day compared to the previous where he'd caught the exhaust when he went over the Ballaugh Bridge too fast, which, frankly, isn't OK?
I read..
your comments just now Lenny. They completely changed my opinion of him and made me not want to read the book.
Some years back, Nick Mason wrote a book
about his classic car collection which included a CD of the engine noises of each car.
Sounds like Mr Kershaw has the same hobby...
I read..
..the interview in the new issue last night - it completely changed my opinion of him and made me want to read the book. He comes across far better on paper than he does in person, (like a lot of born writers).
Interview really put me off him...
...Peel never compromised with his choice of records or seeking out new stuff, right to the end - how exactly did he let Kershaw down?
But given Kershaw's behaviour towards his ex-partner and his apparent belief that he's right about everything, perhaps Peel was right not to support him.
And the idea that Peel lowering his voice over the years is insincere and the same as Kershaw speaking in a Zimbabwean accent is ridiculous.
Kershaw also seems to suspend his critical judgement for any musicians outside Europe and US, as if 'Loco Acapulco from Guatemala with their reading of When I'm Cleaning Windows' is better than anything by The Arctic Monkeys or Franz Ferdinand (who would have been big in the post punk era Mr Kershaw).
I'll still buy his book though.
Listen to this interview:
There's a great four-part interview with Andy Kershaw on Martin Kelner's website. Worth a listen, but it's a bit rude:
http://www.martinkelner.com/kelner_bits/The_Kershaw_Files.shtml
Subjects covered include almost decking Simon Bates, an accident on Mark Knopfler's carpet, presenting Whistle Test (whatever happened to his co-presenters?), Cyril Smith and some chancers called The Rolling Stones.
I feel dirty
after listening to that interview. I thought a gentleman never tells. Carol Vorderman deserves better from the pair of them. I need to listen to a Word podcast with M&D to purge my senses of all that and remind me what true professional journalists are capable of.
Brutal review
by rachel cooke - definitely very personal, and unfair. Also inacurate - she says he doesn't even bother to mention his ex wife until page 309 though they'd been together for 17 years - Bollocks he describes meeting her in some detail long before that (not naming her but clearly identifying her)
His stuff about Peel is what you want to know, not the usual 'lovely bloke' stuff - people are complex, they're not 2 dimensional - Peel wasn't perfect? quelle surprise. I don't think less of either man for it.
In all a good read, and Andy needs to be remembered for championing some excellent music that never got a look in anywhere else. 18th day of May spring to mind.
Rachel Cooke? what a bitch.
I agree with you
A tremendous autobiography and for anyone who hasn't read it he doesnt slag off Peel in any bad way at all. He questions his acquiescence to the demands made by the BBC but also understands he had a family to look after so was in a different position.
Incidentally much was made of his acrimonious split with his partner and how he had gone off the rails and behaved in a totally irrational and aggressive manner. Funny then that the courts awarded him custody of his son and his daughter stays with him on a regular basis. I would say the fight was worth it. Good on you Andy.
Interesting that his custody award
doesn't seem to have been widely reported. I guess being a good dad isn't as good a story as being angry dad frustrated with lack of access.
He's going out on tour
Now his stint on Radio 3 has finished, probably reading extracts from the book and talking about the characters he has met throughout his life to date. Surely a date in The Word podcast dressing up room beckons.
http://www.andykershaw.co.uk/
Hmm. I think that meeting ..
.. and whether it happens or not, will clearly tell you a lot about the nature of current relationships.
sod it
I enjoyed the book. And I can enjoy a book without wanting to meet the author. Who might think I am a git.