That's like saying the Taj Mahal is just a tomb.

of the post heading, I knew this would be a crock of shit.

I wasn't disappointed.

For good measure....wtf??

don't hold back, start on The Jam. I'd love to hear some more of your considered opinion, you obviously know what youre talking about.

Beef dripping and barm cakes.

So I had a camberwell carrot and i got a word wrong... duh... but not one of the nay-sayers has provided a cogent argument... roll out the barrel you c*nts...

Honestly, that Paul Du Noyer is incorrigible
Just to drum up a bit interest in his fabulous book about the rich, colourful and fascinating history of London pop music he assumes a false name and writes a gormless post on here to raise hackles (and pique interest). We're not falling for it Paul. We saw you coming

I find myself asking "what would Danny Dyer do?"

....but not for the obvious reasons. The north/south stuff is just pish, tosh and hooey. Take your pick. (I speak as a recovering Northerner who is all too used to hearing Yorkshire voices on the Tube at King's Cross crowing "Oh, I couldn't do this every day", to which my muttered response is "Well, it's a relief for everyone that you don't have to.")

What's far more interesting is the way it's a textbook example of what I call The Anger Fallacy. This is an idea that has grown up since the late 70s and has been expounded repeatedly at length, generally by university-educated members of the middle class. The Anger Fallacy holds that the quality of pop music is in direct proportion to the anger of the people making it, which is in its turn a consequence of the economic deprivation of their upbringing. This is a tempting trap for the unwary, the plain naive and the prejudiced. Unfortunately, it's not true.

The post above is handicapped by the misconception that the people you like *really mean it* whereas the people you don't like are somehow *putting it on*. Leaving aside the fact that some of the worst music ever made has been made by people who *really meant it* and some of the best by people who were *putting it on*, what that actualy indicates is that when we find something we like we then justify our liking by pointing to its impeccable credentials. Look, we say, it's authentic. And because pop music is traditionally about hating things as much as it is about loving things (although I think maybe that could stand looking at) we find apparently logical reasons why our visceral hatred is scientifically justified. (In political circles this thinking has the most terrible consequences.)

This being Britain, the top of the anger fallacy is usually filmed o'er with class bias. Hence, going to a posh - or even a grammar - school is seen as disqualifying a person from the full range of human feeling and talent. Along with this usually goes an inability to detect those people with really poor backgrounds that they really don't wish to talk about. If you want to find somebody whose childhood was deprived in a way we can't begin to understand today, go and look at Cliff Richard's upbringing when he returned to post-war England. Go and talk to Bill Wyman whose father refused to let him do A Levels and sent him to work in a bookies instead.

There's also, I should point out, a slight racial element to all this. John Lydon is OK because his antecedents are Irish, apparently. Well, since one third of Londoners today were *born overseas* we'd better get used to extending the same free pass to them because they're bound to have come from places where they suffered more deprivation, felt more deeply and therefore are naturally qualified to make great art.

possibly be related to Ricky Gervais, the well known peddler of post-modern humour that laughs at our fears and prejudices by magnifying them?

That is all.

http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/faq/

Rule number 10 - No trolls
Rule number 11 - don't feed the trolls

it's not got anything to do with class, just classiness. Everything I said is true. The central premise is - ugly voices, passionless pop and when did a London band ever do anything starkly original? Where are the great singers? Ian Dury was just talking in tune - and the less said about Albarn the better...

I'm off up the Old Kent Road to sit on Mother Kelly's doorstep and eat me jellied eels... you muppets...

"where are the great singers"? In your original diatribe you name-check Ian Curtis. What makes him a great singer? Try and answer the question without slagging off other singers from dahn sarf.

Damon Albarn isn't from London.

And not all Londoners are cockneys you know in the same way that not all northerners are belligerent fatheads with enormous chips on their shoulders in search of contrived excuses to act like mouthy gobshites.

Look, the rest of us couldn't care less about the city boundaries and who comes from where - those ugly voices, be they cockney or mockney say: LAHNDAHN!! Essex, Kent... who gives a shit, they all sound the same to us... they all talk like Del Boy and try to sell you a pup.

And as for Ian Curtis..
fiercly original performer, poetic lyrics that mirrored his pain and spoke to a disconsolate generation faced with the prospect of nuclear war, lengthening dole queues inner-city riots and Thatcher (meanwhile dahn sath Squeeze were singing Cool For Cats and Dury was extolling the virtues of his Rhythm Stick; in Coventry, The Specials were bemoaning the state of affairs in Ghost Town - Madness were barking about Baggy Trousers!) Joy Division were a band who started something that influenced three musical genres and will strike a chord with numerous generations yet to come - two movies and endless retrospectives - all this for a man who only made 2 albums?!

That's a true original folks. That's the power of passion.

that complete bollox can be produced by musicians (and blog posters) from any part of the UK, and coming from Birmingham I know of which I speak.

Nothing more than a John Foxx wannabe. Without the tunes. Or the wit.

to late 70's early 80's for some reason, did you ever hear The Ruts?Malcolm Owen was bursting with passion and anger and he certainly wrote about racism and the state of affairs as you put it.
They were from a London suburb too - but if you've ever been to Southall you'd know it was far from a namby pamby southern softie place that's for sure!

Read my original thread, dunderheads, answer the questions! Every word is true... OK, the last paragraph was a bit rabid, but the prededing allegations are perfectly valid.

and, maybe it's because I'm a Londoner that I'm a mouthy tw*t...

was quite amusing in an OTT kind of way. I didn't think anyone would actually take it as a serious argument. However, I'm afraid I'm finding HudD (first name Roy perchance?) attempts to keep the joke going a bit boring now.

More importantly, there has not been one mention of Richard Thompson in this discussion. I've no idea where he hails from or what relevance his birthplace might have to the debate, but I feel very let down by the Massive that I haven't been informed of this so far.

c*nts, tw*ts, muppets or dunderheads when I travelled up to that London for the Word get together recently, not any cockney geezers either than I remember.

There were people from Manchester, Scotland, New Zealand, North of Watford Gap, all over the place...all talking about music from equally diverse places with not a plate of jellied eels being thrown in anger.

Don't think many people really give a monkeys where a band is from do they?

I apologise profusely for using crude language, ABisto.

The original post was intended as an inflamatory diatribe, i thought i'd assume the mantle of agent provocateur to inspire a heated debate. Unfortunately, i undersetimated Word subsrcibers sense of irony, and it resulted in a bout of name calling and pedantry that has clouded the central issue. Sorry. My bad.

The reason the comments concern bands of the early 80's is because the music mags will all be printing tributes to Ian Curtis on the 30th anniversary of his death and i wondered if someone like him could've come from London. I picked on The Clash because, at a time when the country needed to be galvanised into some sort of united front, and the music press in that era decided the clash was the band to spearhead the revolution. Trouble was, they embodied (what I think is) the problem with most of the London bands - artifice over artistry, posture over passion - instead of uniting the troubled tribes - they created an elitism that polarised their public: witness Strummer's wearing of an H-block tee-shirt at the height of the hunger strike. He didn't have any answers, ergo, he became part of the problem. And history has shown that the clash were a hollow as the Larry Parnes-style rent-a-rockers and prog bands they sought to replace.

Bowie made it plain from day one that his was 'an act'. But he's a damn fine singer, and he has the worldwide sales to prove it.Rotten/Lydon was a true original. What I'm asking is: is it in the blood? Are they successful because of their celtic heritage? Why is that the 'greatest capital city in the world' can only produce a handful of world-beating, mojo-bearing artists? Is music hall to blame? A form of torture so insideously evil( the victims had to pay to have it administered?)

Is geography essential to your muse? Or is it all just showbiz and to hell with it?

And I'd make a rubbish frontman.

I'm a proud North country boy,albeit from a rather posh bit of it originally and I can honestly say what a load of old tosh.Talent knows no boundaries,geographic,class or otherwise.Good laugh though,cat amongst the pigeons and all that,never thought our suave,cosmopolitan brethren would be so insecure.

Anyway, London's brilliant

can threads be locked...?

The folk that frequent this site are, by and large, a top bunch and this forum seems to be in no way representative of most of the Internet, which is full of trolling, insults and general anger.

It's been mentioned before, but it's a bit like a virtual pub here which is a good description - it's full of blokes talking nonsense but isn't an exclusive clique that outsiders can't join.

Now, I know you're somewhat anonymous online, but you wouldn't go up to a group of strangers in a pub having a conversation, say something controversial just to get a response, and then insult them when they seem annoyed.

It's nice here and everyone is welcome.

(I'll also apologise in advance as that sounds far more condescending in text than it's intended to be)

One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle

I think if you check back on my previous threads you will see that it is your regular contributors who are the more abusive party. My reactions, silly, inflamatory and flippant as they may be, are retaliatory. I have re-read the original post many times, and i still can't see what ails you. Most of the so-called 'racist' invective (references to Northerners etc) comes from the gentle souls who frequent the site. The fact that not one member has agreed with me, in part, or in the spirit of fun, proves that a lot of people are afraid to 'stick their head above the parapet' and profer a view that might estrange them from, what appears to be, a less-than-ingenuous heirarchy.

I get it. I get it.

Fear not. I shall bow out and return to the shadows from whence I came. I'll never darken your portals again.

something here? I've been out shopping

I had so much more to give...
my next three blogs were to have been:

Sid Barrett: The Profitability of Mental Illness!

Men are from Mars, Women from Venus, but Michael McIntyre comes straight from Uranus.

Stephen Fry: Quite Interesting - or Fat, Jew-Boy-Poof?

... and please, please, know that the above should be read aloud in a tone thick with heavy-irony... I AM WINE-DING YOUSE UP!!!!!

...if London can't claim various bands because of Celtic roots then Liverpool can't claim the Beatles and Manchester can't claim Oasis. The list could go on...

I hope you're not serious about quitting on us.I like a broad church,freedom of speech and all that.I have to say I for one found your original post quite amusing,wrong,but amusing apart from the insults that is.The large response speaks for itself,every sphere of life needs iconoclasts or things get to cosy.So stick around and stick it to us now and again it will be good for us just be a little more polite next time.Chin up!

on
Syd Barrett: The Profitability of Mental Illness!

In fact I shall go and start the discussion now...

Here we go... I'm going to have to shine up the old chestnut again...

...and wasn't Mod just a London thing? Cosmopolitan tribal nonsense that was of little consequence to those of us in the sticks? An excuse for a ruck at Brighton every bank-holiday, wearing clothes your mother loved? Granted it produced some excellent music, but I think you'll find that the artists you've cited are all, broadly speaking, Londoners (with the exception of Costello - a man known for his contrariness and love of 60's suits - Blondie I'm sure had no idea of the music's culutural significance). Believe it or not, The Stone Roses were a goth band before they took some E. I have no excuses for Oasis - but the guitar sound on Supersonic is very goth.

Wasn't Mod just a bunch of lairy Londoners emulating the Beatles?

Tee-hee.

Now, I love a bit of one eyed, wrong-headed, deliberately obtuse North of Ireland inverted snobbery as much as the next chip on the shoulder nine county Ulster Mick - made it my life.
But this is just a shower of sheeeite, keek, cack, gash etc etc, whether it is just pure scoffing. Winding my neck in, I say, go away.
Weren't Energy Orchard really a London band?

If there any other eejits who come across this thread and think I'm the devil incarnate, I'm gonna let youse intae a wee secret.

The original blog - with a few ammendments - was cut & pasted from my second novel - the diatribe in question is spouted by a character who has been disillusioned by the music biz in the early 80's - he's an alcoholic malcontent with an axe to grind (remind you of anyone?). I just wanted to see what would happen if a bunch of Londoners saw it and what their reaction would be. Call it research if you will. But as yez know, I misjudged the whole affair and instead of coming clean, holding my hands up and grovelling, I sparred, and y'all quite-rightly gave me the rhetorical-kicking I richly deserved.

I really thought yez would laugh it off and call me a lemon. Thank God I stuck around. Fraser, David et-al seem pacified that I'm no ogre (or should that be troll?) and I feel at home here.

I love yez all.
Be safe, be well.
Da HudD.

Music, novels... I look forward to future thread-reviving revelations of a documentary, fashion line, fragrance etc.

;)

There is a brilliant blog about London songs here which is very up Word's street: http://thelondonnobodysings.blogspot.com/

And a blog about London Art (including music) here which might also fit the bill: piece on MORRISSEY & London here: http://thelondoni.com/?p=375