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By 'Eck, it's McLeish for Villa!
Not actually that huge a surprise by now, but anyway, this article is a fair analysis of the man - someone who I have a lot of time for. I hope he does achieve the consistency with Villa that has eluded him elsewhere up to now.
What best defines his time at Birmingham City? Last season’s Carling Cup triumph – the club’s first trophy since 1963 – or two relegations in three years? In his five years at Ibrox, was it the seven trophies or the two barren seasons, one of which included a sequence of 10 winless games, the worst run in the club’s history?
...
If there is a recurring theme to McLeish, it is that he tends to overachieve, and then be unable to sustain it. At Hibs, Rangers and Birmingham, the funds were not available to build on the triumphant moments, and so the efforts became about fighting decline. As a player and a manager, perhaps the truest evaluation of McLeish is that he is not afraid of confrontation, and that he rises to it.
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It's what the phrase
'It'll end in tears' was invented for.
Don't really see it ending in tears.
I think the article has it spot on. He'll probably have a very decent first season. The question is - what happens after that? To be fair to him though, this will be the most stable and well-funded position he's been in, so it will be interesting to watch.
From a selfish point of view, I'm disappointed he's got the job, as he's likely to want to keep Carlos Cuellar, who I (and more importantly Ally McCoist) was hoping to see back at Ibrox...
Young definitely off.
Downing sure to follow and if those two go I'd be amazed if that money-grabbing, insecure, serial team-hopper Bent stays beyond January.
That said I've got nothing against the gingerman, he seems okish, but he's surely not great enough to be worth the hassle of crossing a city like that. If two relegations is what it is...two relegations! (In three years is that right?)
Yep. Sounds bad, no doubt.
But in his first season he was only appointed in November. This last season just finished was a tough one but it was a 'perm any two from five' kind of scenario and they were the ones to suffer. He's a curate's egg alright - from a Rangers point of view, to win seven trophies including a treble during his time there was no mean feat against an O'Neill-managed Celtic team with a few bob behind them, but there's also the club's longest winless run ever (10 games) to factor in. Mitigating circumstances (downsizing / firefighting) everywhere he's been so far - that's why it will be fascinating to see how it turns out at Villa.
I agree regarding Cuellar.
My mates dad is a Rangers fan who rated him very highly. He has never really been given a run in one position has he? Hopefully that may now change now Judas is running the show. He may even play an integral part in our new 6 man midfield.
A class act.
He was probably the standout in Rangers' recent lucrative line of bargain buys who were sold to English clubs for a huge return - the first being Jean-Alain Boumsong, the latest (in all likelihood) being Madjid Bougherra.
Certainly didn't work out too well for Boumsong at Newcastle. Cuellar fared better at first but then fell out of favour. 'Bougie', as he showed when bossing Rooney for Algeria in the World Cup, could certainly do a job in the Premier League.
But Carlos I'd have back in a heartbeat.
I remember watching Cuellar
playing for Rangers in a european cup game and he absolutely bossed it. As such I was made up when we nabbed him. For whatever reason he has never been given a fair positional claim, so if nothing else comes of this appointment than at least I hope this gets addressed.
Speaking of ending in tears
Scotland will try to play the Spain and Barcelona way, reveals Craig Levein
Details of the master plan can be found here.
differing opinions
My BCFC supporting friends are secretly pleased he's gone. But not to Villa. My AV supporting friends are incensed. Lerner seems to have blown his capital of goodwill.
Still it's makes the Brummies happy. As a cockney is born withing the sounds of Bow Bells so a Brummie is born within the sound of someone whingeing. Now they can all have a good old whinge.
As a Villa fan
I agree with the baying mob for once, we really don't want him. It's not so much down to his cross city bus journey (30 pieces of silver off peak), rather his love of "pack the midfield and hope for the best" football tactics.
The Blousers didn't deserve to be treated so dismissively either, he took them down twice and the board stuck by him.
Mr Turner, your thoughts?
Just out of interest,
who would you have wanted to take over?
Mark Hughes
Don't laugh, but I kind of hoped that the lure of sunny Brum may have tempted him away from offers such as Chelsea. We do world class Balti you know :D
Another 'jury still out' character,
no?
Mark Hughes
Not for me, no. He did extremely well with Wales and Blackburn.
Possibly.
I just don't feel comfortable regarding McLeish's integrity or tactical prowess. Not a good start huh? You may of course argue that Sparky may tick those boxes too but at least he will risk attacking football to win a game.
Sometimes perhaps it's better the devil you don't know. At least the unknown offers a glimmer of hope?
There would have been no need for anyone to take over
If Villa had acceded to Gerard's request they contact Stark Industries and sort him an Iron Man style reactor heart...
If he hadn't bought Bent he could have had the whole suit...
Mr Turners thoughts
Only just seen this post today as I was out most of yesterday. Firstly 7 trophies in a two horse race isn't much of an achievement to write home about.It is one or the other - he was the one for a couple of seasons and the other thereafter.
From a Birmingham City perspective I would say that his character in this particular instance has been stained. Firstly he was tapped up - no question. For the last 3 years he has been saying how great the fans were yet says nothing to them, no goodbye, no acknowledgement etc.Ironically had Birmingham stayed up I think that he would almost certainly have been sacked. Our board have undoubtedly put pressure on him that he perceives to be unfair - rather than rise to the challenge of taking us back up he has jumped ship. I think he has done so because he knows he will lose the core of the team and therefore have little chance of achieving the boards target. I also think Peter Pannu is a pretty unsavoury character which may restrict us in recruiting someone else of a similar stature.
I think the job he has taken at Villa is a potential poisoned chalice. If he loses Downing in addition to Young he will have lost both of his widemen but that's okay because he doesn't like flair or pace.He will go for hard working steady players - that is his penchant. The Villa fans are more demanding than Blues fans and if he gets off to a bad start he may have a mountain to climb.
At Birmingham under his stewardship the football was dreadful. He claims allegedly that he wasn't backed in the transfer market which is a blatant lie. He was given authorisation to sign N'Zogbia but made the decision not to after negotiations became protracted. He claims Zigic wasnt his signing. The same Zigic who knocked Villa out of the Carling Cup, caused mayhem against West Ham in the semi final and scored against Arsenal at Wembley. In this case the Carling Cup victory wasnt down to you then Alex?
2 Relegations in 3 years is not that impressive - when he took over from Bruce in the November we weren't even in bottom three so don't give me the rubbish that he didn't take us down that year. Even the year we finished 9th we only scored one goal more than last year which was a record low.
I feel sorry for Villa fans as Lerner has settled for a 5th choice manager. However it was those fans who turned against the potential signing of McLaren who has a much better club record south of the border and in Europe.
I always though that McLeish had a lot of dignity however this situation changes the perplexion of his character. I don't begrudge him earning the bigger bucks in a premiership team I would just be wary as a Villa fan with his pronouncement of what a special club it is. Remember 3 years ago he was saying the same crap at Birmingham and receiving the same support from his mate Ferguson.
Unfortunately he has past form
"Firstly he was tapped up - no question. For the last 3 years he has been saying how great the fans were yet says nothing to them, no goodbye, no acknowledgement etc"
"I always though that McLeish had a lot of dignity however this situation changes the perplexion of his character."
See my posts below about similar treatment of Hibs fans.
Chris Hughton
I think you've got a good 'un there, Steve. Proven record of bringing a team straight back up, likeable guy who will win over fans and retain players. Took a punt with young players resulting in one £30m sell-on and converts unloved rogues into popular players. And likes 'playing decent football', to coin a phrase.
Ooh 'Eck
I think it's a bad move. He's unpopular with Villa fans already, so it'll only take 2-3 bad results before they're on his back. Reminds me of Allardyce at Newcastle. £10 says he's gone by Xmas.
'mon the big man
He's a top bloke and I think he'll be a success at Villa.
The job he did in his first season and a half at Ibrox, in the face of O'Neill's juggernaut, was exceptional. And he won a cup with Birmingham, a team that had won nothing (apart, that is, from the coveted Freight Rover trophy) in half a century.
If he can get away with selling only Young this summer (and can bring in a couple of decent players), he'll have a decent stab at the top 6 next season.
Success at Villa?
...practically impossible with Lerner in charge.
Really?
If so, that's a shame as he seemed to be one of the more sane club owners.
If by success you mean winning the Premier League or the Champions League then I agree. The SPL gets slated for being a two-horse race but the situation in England is not much different now, is it? Yes, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and Man City are Big Clubs but league winners? Some way off yet, I feel. City may yet be a game changer, through practically limitless hosing of money at it, but we'll see.
If Arsenal (the best hope of the relatively rational yet still genuinely aspirational clubs) can't do it, after years of stability and with one of the world game's undoubted greats (if flawed, but who isn't?) in charge, then, frankly, who can? 1982 is a world away...
I trust Learner
at least regarding his integrity. Of all the foreign Premiership owners I think he is the most genuine. I just think he has called this one wrong. Wouldn't swap him for anyone else though.
He's been calling it wrong for years
at Browns.
I bet he was the fat kid who never got picked at school, so he's now got his own teams to play with.
Thing is though, he's just not very good at it.
Hopeless judge of character, completely unassertive so gets others to do his dirty work, and needs to be surrounded by yes-men to make him feel loved. I think he thought he could breeze in, change the whole English soccer culture and have happy families tailgating in the carpark, swapping scarves with their Smallheath buddies while admiring the stained glass windows.
McN will be OK as long as he nods at appropriate intervals and keeps his head down until the General gets put out to grass.
I'm reading between the lines here,
but I'm guessing you're not keen on Randolph D. Lerner?
Christ knows...
How much he's poured into a team that would be in a much lower position without his money.
It amazes me how short some football memories are.
Not a Villa fan
(As if you didnt know) but my understanding is the money he has spent is less than or close to the income from the sale of players. With Downing and Young going this summer I would imagine there will be a surplus.
In other words,
sensible business practice;-)
Seriously, it's hard to know what really constitutes success these days. For clubs like Fulham and Bolton, I think they'd be genuinely happy remaining in the Premier League each year, and this reflects well on the way both clubs are run. Not sure about the likes of Villa though (you may disagree, but I'm afraid as a neutral it seems undeniable that they have to be seen as a 'big club' due to the trophies they've won, while BC are still in the 'potential' category). Should clubs like Villa genuinely aspire to win the League, or even get into the top four? I would say yes.
Villa fans are entitled to believe they're football royalty
When the premier league began Villa had won as many league titles (7) and FA Cups (7 again) as Manchester United and had won the European Cup ten years earlier (and 14 years more recently than MU).
It will take a generation in the slow lane for Villans to accept they are outside the palace with the plebs.
Look at it the other way around: Chelsea have been top four for over a decade now - how many football supporters accept Chelsea are a bigger club than, say, Everton?
Question for you
How do you score goals when you play a lone striker and no wingers? The obvious answer is you don't. It seems that such a simple solution as playing strikers in pairs was beyond his grasp so I fear that Villa who are not exactly free scoring before he took over will have the same problems that we did. The only saving grace is that they have Bent we had Jerome. Oh btw Alex if you want to raid your former club can you take Jerome off our hands.
The other thing that the Villa board will find is that he will identify a player that is a 'must have' and then after shelling out the money for him refuse to play him. He chased Michel from Sporting Gijon for a whole year - we spend £3 million on him but have no idea if he is any good or not as he wouldn't play him. Then he has the affront to say that his board undermined him. More I think of it more I realise that he wasnt as hard done by as he makes out.
I have yet to
hear a serious alternative who would want the job. McLeish appears to be a proper person who will give it his best. The issue as with most clubs will be expectations. I remember Charlton fans who were fed up with Curbishley only finishing in the top ten every season, "when are we going to push on.......?"
The only expectation should be that he'll relegate
them, as he has done in 2 out of the three seasons he's managed in the top flight.
I agree he's a top bloke but....
He was a disaster as a manager at Motherwell. Did well in his first season with most of the squad inherited from his predecessor Tommy McLean but when he started to sign players and shape his own team, dear me it was dreadful. Motherwell fans were rejoicing when he left for Hibs.
To be fair,
'Well was his first managerial job.
BTW what's your thoughts on the mooted community ownership plan?
This is all the rage at the moment, at least in part due to Barcelona's massive success, but Barca (as effectively the national team of Catalonia) are one thing, clubs such as Motherwell another.
To coin a phrase, the jury's out on Rangers new owner Craig Whyte, and before his takeover was agreed there was some talk of this model for Rangers. Whether it was really workable or not we'll never know. In Rangers' case, I suspect the fans would not really have gone for the principled 'German' model and inevitable downsizing of expectations that would have gone with a community/fan-owned club, and a clamour would soon have arisen for another David Murray-style sugar daddy.
No disrespect, but Motherwell, St. Mirren and others may be better clubs for this kind of approach, but I'm genuinely interested to see how this develops as in principle it's a positive move.
Barca (as effectively the national team of Catalonia)
Get the rubber out,Fraser. he we go. Short version
What a load of tosh. Barça are the self-proclaimed National team of Catalunya,But only yesterday their president announced that his club weren't the guardians of Catalan sport.
Athletic Bilbao- 11 Basques
Barça- 4 Catalans, 3 Spanish and 4 very expensive imports(Archie,the salary they pay Leo "jordi" Messi is expensive).Whereas another team in the city regularly fields up to 7 Catalans.
Unless FIFA change the rules that ain't a national team.
Not having a pop at you,Dougie am having a go at the common misconception.
The community ownership is another sore point.Barça is basically run by a group of millionaires and the supporters get to choose which millionaire they want every 5 years. That's the extent of the supporters so-called ownership. It's run on the same lines as Real Madrid but no-one calls them community ownership nor Bayern,Dortmund and hundreds of others.
Sorry but this Barça love-in presses my button. On the football side i understand ,the way it's run,no no no. won everything in site but lost 40 million,debts to bank bearing down on a billion.If La Caixa calls in that debt......
Not so sure he's a top bloke
Given that he managed Hibs to some of the best football they have played in the last 20 years, he has left a sour taste with most of the Easter Road faithful.
When he came to Hibs, he had the "luxury" of a relegated season to steady the boat, got incredibly lucky with the signings of Sauzee and Latapy, was given an inflated budget to try to rival the Old Firm- that Hibs have still not quite recovered from- did really well initially (a common theme throughout his career), came out with the unfortunate comment "I'm here as long as you need me" to the Hibs fans, then jumped ship to Ibrox in an indecently short period of time.
Furthering his career for better prospects? Maybe. Moving on when he has been hampered by an unambitious (in financial terms) board? Maybe. Or just a disloyal uncommitted careerist? Other than his spell as Scotland Manager (taken to restabilise his career after a downturn at Ibrox), he has regularly moved on when questions have been asked of him.
Hibs fans still refer to him as GJP. Whether or not you have qualms with him being referred to as ginger or a prick, the Judas tag has a lot of foundation in every club he has been with.
And if anyone can fill me in on Andy Watson's qualities, you're doing well.
Hmmm...
The 'lucky' thing has stuck with him, as the article I linked to in the OP points out. But as far as signings go, you could equally say Martin O'Neill was 'lucky' in inheriting the genuinely world-class Henrik Larsson, who was responsible for a sizeable chunk of the success he had at Celtic.
On the 'club-hopping' accusations you make, there are precious few managers who don't fall into that category. I appreciate I'm biased, but it's really difficult to imagine him turning down a move to Rangers (especially as a fan) at that stage in his career isn't it? To call that being a 'disloyal uncommitted careerist' is a stretch, imo. If he's that, then so is everyone apart from, er, Tony Pulis and Dario Gradi.
Loyalty cuts both ways. One thing I'll say for David Murray - he showed great loyalty to his managers in difficult circumstances. Lerner looks like another one of the same ilk.
I also appreciate that you
I also appreciate that you are biased, as most Old Firm fans are when it comes to the "wee" teams. *insert long-suffering smilie*
What you maybe don't appreciate is that McLeish at the time got Hibs fans genuinely excited, as we seemed to have a budget, a team, and a style of play which for once lived up to our own perception of us being a flair team playing with cavalier spirit. The mythology was coming true!
Importantly, we seemed to have a manager who, through his public utterances, seemed to be with us for the long haul. He could have worded these comments differently, but instead gave the impression that he was a genuine guy who could be trusted.
Which is where the Judas tag came in- it quickly became obvious that he was looking after himself, and that his declarations of loyalty were just skillful PR. We were duped, let down, disappointed- which is the impression that seems to recur with fans from most of the clubs that he has been involved in. I naively had thought that, for once in his career, he would tackle a real challenge at Birmingham (given their loyalty to him) instead of once again moving on.
Or has he just seen too much of Barry Ferguson over the years?
btw- I agree about Murray- where would Ayr Utd be now if they had taken up his offer years ago?
Fair enough.
(not Ayr Utd, by the way, your post!)
But I still think you're making a Mandelson out of a McLeish here. You imply that his utterances while Hibs manager were just 'skilful PR' but I think they were probably sincerely meant. The idea that he was a 'shoo-in' for the Rangers job was far from a given, and in fact Murray was I thought quite brave in appointing him.
And on the 'wee clubs' thing: I think it's fair to say that Motherwell, St. Mirren, St. Johnstone etc will always be 'wee' compared to the OF, but Hibs? Hearts? Purely a lack of ambition as far as I can see. It's like Roma saying 'of course we can't compete against the might of Turin's finest'.
*dons tin hat* Maybe Wallace Mercer had a point...
Sincerely meant?
That's the thrust of my point- Eck's supposed sincere comments have come to mean very little. "Long-term" plans don't seem to feature in his vocabulary- maybe he should study his mentor's career a bit closer.
I know Old Firm fans have a problem understanding anything outwith their own domain- I was using "wee" teams from an OF viewpoint- we know how you regard us. And unfortunately, given the current financial state of Scottish football, you;re probably right!
I don't believe any manager should be called a Judas
Irrespective of how many times they leave a club. We fans expect our club manager to show absolute loyalty to the club ... until we don't like the results or get bored of him and then he has to go. Managers are sacked for the flimsiest of reasons (just ask Chris Hughton), and I reckon they are within their rights to leave a club if they feel a better offer has come along.
You have a point but...
I realise that managers have one of the least secure jobs in the country, and that fans are one of the most fickle groups of people, but they could help themselves by not making emotionally explicit remarks expressing unrealistic loyalty. McLeish has played the loyalty card on more than one occasion, so shouldn't be too surprised if people are a bit wary of any of his pronouncements.
"Leaving a club when a better offer comes along" is acceptable- making loyal comments to your existing fans while your next move is virtually sealed moves the goalposts somewhat.
Good luck if you're a Villa fan.
Fair Point
I wasn't aware that he's been kissing the badge so often.
That's an interesting point
But a manager (in any business)is more or less bound to say how wonderful his current employers are. For football managers, it's part of the job to keep the fans coming through the turnstile and saying how uniquely wonderful the fans are is part of that.
As a Southampton supporter, I can think of an example of someone who didn't do that and that was Harry Redknapp. He came to us from local rivals Portsmouth after he'd fallen out with Milan Mandaric. But his heart was never in it and he never pretended it was. He would refer to the club and team as "they" rather than "we" and seemed resigned to relegation even before it became inevitable. After he'd taken us down he duly returned to his "spiritual home" at Portsmouth (before a bigger club came knocking and his spirit was willing to leave home again).
Most Saints fans hate him. But not because he pretended to love the club and then deserted us. But because he never pretended to love the club. I guess managers are damned either way.
Spot on piggers
'Moved on when questions have been asked of him' is an accurate description. He has apparently complained of aggressive communication. We have been relegated for fucks sake - the club, already financially challenged, loses 60 percent of its income overnight. What did you expect Alex? A party and some champers? Yet another Football personality without a grasp of reality.
If my sales fell by 60 percent I would get a kick up the arse. Thought you were a man Alex. Quite obviously I was wrong.
Spot On Piggers
TMFTL
4 months to prove everyone wrong
A previous poster mentioned Allardyce/Newcastle and they were dead right - if Xmas comes and Villa is hovering just above the drop zone, McLeish will be chased out of town. He should have hung around and waited for the Blackburn job, which will be available soon enough.
In the era when fourth place is all.......
....and Arsenal's only reason for being seems to be to finish third or fourth every year, I've got time for McLeish because Birmingham City did actually 'win' something last season.
That said, I can see why Villa would go through hoops to get a player like Messi or a manager like Ferguson but......it just all seems like a lot of hard work to get McLeish who did, let's not forget, manage a relegated team last season!
In fairness....
.... Arsenal start every season with a fair chance of winning the Premier League, Champions League, FA Cup and Carling Cup and finish the season in a situation where we can repeat that again.
So as a Gooner, it is better to travel than to arrive. I have high hopes for next season and I know that at least we will see some great football.
Just heard on talk sport...
a crazy stat that Chelsea have spent more in compensation to managers over the last few years than Arsenal have in players.
'win?'
How come you say 'win'?
They won the trophy. I wasn't aware there was any doubt about that.
'Win'
I think the apostrophes were for emphasis.
Yep
I was emphasizing the point that too many clubs don't place enough focus on actually trying to 'win' something, being happier to finish fourth or 17th depending on their finances/ambitions.
Here's an example:
Newcastle United.
Haven't won a domestic trophy since before Elvis Presley's Hound Dog was released.
Home tie v Arsenal (a club who also treat the League Cup as a training exercise), last eight of the comp., and Houghton puts out a severely weakened/reserve side.....and loses 4-0.
I don't get that.
McLeish, however, seemed liked a guy who really wanted to 'win' something.....and did.
McLeish has a winning mentality
no doubt about that. I also think all clubs should field their strongest team in every competition they enter. The clue is in the word 'competition'. However Birmingham City FC paid a huge price for winning the Carling Cup and McLeish must take a large chunk of blame for getting relegated. The players gave up after winning the cup. Anyone who saw our home performance against Fulham will agree. We could have been 5-0 down after 10 minutes - a draw in that game would have kept us up but we didnt even try.There were a number of games last season where we were so negative we never even mustered one shot on target for 90 minutes. Not acceptable as a form of entertainment. In that respect good riddance and Lerner has got the manager his lack of ambition deserves.
McLeish - I'll say 18 months top whack
There are some appointments that you just know are not going to last.